Talk:Shame
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Reading the definition of guilt & shame, they seem very similar -- is the principal difference that in guilt one feels regret? -- Tarquin
I will attempt to make some distinctions here using psychological sources. Please suggest other possible sources.66.15.140.3 19:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need an article that it seems appreciate that wikitionary covers? If there is shame, then why not regret, not disgrace, not embarrassment, not dishonor, etc, etc... -- Taku 21:05 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)
- I added this article because I believed it was necessary to explain some of the motivation behind Japanese culture -- as I understood it. I'm not wedded to the existence of this article (unlike some people I've crossed swords here in Wikipedia), but if I'm advocating an incorrect viewpoint, then I'd like an explanation why I'm incorrect.
- Shame refers to one's internalized discomfort from doing something incorrect, & being seen by others. In US culture, there is much shame surrounding public nudity & sexual practices. A dishonored public figure (say, Trent Lott -- although you could probably pick Bill Clinton if you think I'm being unfairly partisan) doesn't show shame in US culture, although he/she might demonstrate guilt. (It's been known to happen.)
- Guilt is a far more private emotion. As I feel it (& have heard it described), guilt does not depend on the opinions of other people: it is a tension between one's own sense of right & the act that causes guilt. Guilt has more of an effect in the non-sexual side of US affairs, & seems to be mostly used by parents on their children.
- I'm unaware that anthropology has discredited this viewpoint, but my cultural anthropology classes were back in the late 1970's, & I may have remembered this distinction from an even older text. -- llywrch 01:04 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)
- shame <- ethics, guilt <- morals lysdexia 12:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The definition of shame is said to be a form of social control. While this may be true in some cases, the way it is said in the description indicates that shame is a social construction. This is not true in most cases. One can say that social frames are based on how shame may naturally arise, or that cultures may intentionally create an artificial feeling of shame for a behavior which it deems obscene. To call it a form of social control is really putting a "The Guys at the Top use Shame to Manipulate the Sheep" flavor to the general definition of shame.
Why was 'shaming' redirected to this page? The term 'shaming' has been used to denote the cultural phenomena which deserves its own article. If someone can recommend a different title since 'shaming' might be defined as 'the act of inducing shame upon other individuals', that would be fine.
Fred Bauder posted it just fine on August 10th.
"Shaming is the act of disgracing an individual who has had altogether too much to drink and consequently passes out first on a given evening. Upon that person's fall from grace, his or her comrades proceed to perform all manner of mischevious deeds on their comatose body. The predominant purposes of shaming are for the amusement of the shamers, and for the humiliation of the recipient of the shaming, often as a punishment for not being able to hold his or her alcohol. Common shamings include the scarification of the person's face with permanent markers, dousing the sap with bags of flour, applying toothpaste to his or her person, or using powerful adhesives to bond both skin and inanimate object on the person's body. More complex shamings involve building structures on or around the unconscious person, moving the person to different and often humorous locales, and binding the person to whatever they have unwittingly selected as the site for their downfall." --Redconfetti 19:08, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Request for Supporting Data.
The introductory paragraph concludes with "Intense shame may lead to depression or suicide." Can anyone please provide valid, scientific data to support this statement?
- Can you provide valid, scientific data that Shame exists? All we have is the account of a few billion human beings - all of whom could be lying, for all we know. Not very scientific at all!
Supporting Data can be found in the following article:
Suicide and Shame
by HARTMUT B. MOKROS
American Behavioral Scientist, Vol. 38, No. 8, 1091-1103 (1995) Deepsoulstarfish 18:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] to 'request'
a quick google scholar search shows many scientific papers on shame so it probably exists. Good question on depression and suicide. From my own experience with a shame based church it seems to me that shame is something to be overcome especially when it is false shame. For example the bible explicitly shames all things of the 'flesh' and exalts all things 'spiritual' which to me now is absurd. It took me decades to toss away that bible-babble based shame.
[edit] objective or subjective causes of shame
How is shame caused? I notice that what 'shames' one person might amuse the next. For example at GITMO our fine intelligence officers use sexual teases, taunts and other stunts to shame Muslim terrorist suspects. Some fundamentalist suspects break down in shame and rage, others who have lived in the West just laugh at their tormentors. To me this article needs a lot of work to capture the full essence of shame.
I also come from a religious background that uses shame to teach, control and punish it's members. I believe shame is a subject that deserves an article because it is a taboo emotion that needs to become better known. It also forms the COVERT locus of control for all societies I know of. In the United States Stalinist gender feminists who claim victimhood-as-saint status are particulary effective at using shame in politics. For example the claim that 'rape is not about sex...it is about power' is a ridiculous statement used to shame violent men while letting 'vice-ent' women off the hook. Shame can be a powerful form of political control because it allows those who claim the high moral ground (rightly or wrongly) to dictate terms to everyone else.
[edit] Introduction/definition/distinctions
I tried to tighten this up with references. However, there seem to be few good general references on this topic. Please comment or suggest how to proceed and how to organize\clean up the remainder of the article.
Anacapa 02:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Work of Thomas Scheff
I think the work of TJ Scheff (Professor Emeritus of Sociology, University of California, Santa Barbara) should be mentioned in this article. He is a major influence on John Bradshaw, and he is a leading academic researcher into Shame as an emotion, and its role in in social processes. Google him and you will find relevant articles.
