User talk:Serhiy

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Contents 1 Welcome 2 Kiev/Kyiv 2.1 Hi 3 Cherkasy Oblast 4 Board vs forum 5 The main coach station and the crossroads, Vynohrad 6 Name of Ukraine 7 Image copyright problem with Image:Zoranyi Horpynyn horod, Vynohrad.jpg 8 Allow me 9 С Праздником! 10 Kreschatyk 11 POV in History of Christianity in Ukraine

[edit] Welcome

Hello, Serhiy, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions.

If you are interested in Ukraine-related themes, you may want to check out the Ukraine Portal, particularly the Portal:Ukraine/New article announcements and Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related Wikipedia notice board. The New article announcements board is probably the most important and the most attended one. Please don't forget to anounce there the new articles you create. Adding both boards to your watchlist is probably a good idea.

Finally, in case you are interested, similar boards exist at Russia portal as many editors contribute to topics related to both countries. The respective boards there are: Portal:Russia/New article announcements and Portal:Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board. Of course there are also many other portals at Wikipedia or you may just get right into editing.

Again, welcome!—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 21:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kiev/Kyiv

Hi! Before unilaterally changing the spelling on Kiev, please obtain consensus for the change on the talk-page. You should probably first read (or at least skim) the previous discussions on the subject (Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive01 (2003-2004), Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive02 (January-August 2005) and Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive04 (August-December 2005)). Thanks, Rasmus (talk) 12:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - done. Please see my question on this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev#More_Kiev_Kyiv. The answer to that question is appreciated.

Serhiy 14:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Great initiative. See Bombay, Siam, and the Ivory Coast for a few examples where Wikipedia respects the naming conventions of sovereign states.--tufkaa 15:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Nope, WP uses the most common English names. Please check the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) official guideline:

If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works.

More at talk pages. Guys, please contribute content! Tufkaa, you've done the great job in that. Serhiy, please check the red links ideas at "Things you can do" list at Ukraine portal or try whatever else interests you. Would you be interested in bringing Kiev bridges to FA level page? DDima and I are planning to start working on Kiev tram. Other ideas? Please consider contributing to non-political topics for a little bit until you are here for just a bit longer. Our friend Tufkaa has done a great job on that. In no way I can or wish to prevent you from getting into the hottest of the hottest issues all at once. This is just a friendly suggestion. Feel free to ignore it. --Irpen 16:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

DO ignore his suggestions, Serhiy. Otherwise you'll find yourself pushed away from balanced editing of UA pages - pushed very softly but systematically. Actually, Andriy K already expressed what I was going to write just minutes before I pressed "Save" button :). Once again: Irpen is the "chief mediator" and one of the leaders of the Russian Group that promotes bias in the Ukraine-related topics. (No offence, Irpen :). Best wishes, Ukrained 18:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

And just for the cases like this, there is a Do not feed the trolls official guideline. Take care, Ukrained. --Irpen 19:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Guys, your friendly suggestions are much appreciated, and I will most likely be contributing to the Ukrainian portal - both in English and, first of all, in Ukrainian at the Ukrainian-language portal... I do think WP is a great idea, and don't mind spending a modicum of my time regularly on enlarging it. But let me also draw your attention to the fact that you have not answered my main question - regarding the procedure for changing "Kiev" to "Kyiv" on WP. Given that you already started discussing the substance of this issue (quote: "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article"), let me ask you this. The Economist (you know what The Economist is? www.economist.com) and the United Nations are just two organisations that already use the spelling "Kyiv". Very prominent organisations, let me highlight. And more others do the same. So, if en masse the English speaking populus has not yet caught up to the change, is that a reason not to introduce that change here? Also, how do you know and define what the most commonly used version is? Do you commission a research project to carry out a survey on the streets of New York, Kyiv, London or Tokio? Do you rely on a comprehensive survey of internet? How do you actually know that intelligent people en masse have not yet caught up with this change in the usage of English, that they haven't been reading The Economist regularly for example and so know what happens in the world?

I am jumping at this issue because it is an important one. I would appreciate the answer to my original question - that would save me considerable time. Best, Serhiy 17:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Serhiy the principle here is rationale, not consistency. I mean just because a state Company uses Kharkov we still call the article Kharkiv. On the opposite spectrum just because the Ukrainian transliteration is Odesa we use Odessa due to the names's absoloute dominance in the English language. In some cases use of Kyiv is fully jutified like FC Dynamo Kyiv in other cases Kiev Metro. The point I am trying to make is not wether a newspaper or a governemnt or even a company uses one spelling in preference to another. We are using English names for the city. (Russian name based on adopted transliteration is Kiyev). What I am trying to say is think of Kiev as equivelant to the Dnieper, like Kyiv is to Dnipro and Kiyev is to Dnepr. Kiev is not deragotory nor is it offensive. It is the English name for the city.

Setting all that aside, I do welcome you to wikipedia and hope to see some great contributions from you. If you happen to live in the latter city then I would it be too much a challenge to ask you to take photos of the Kiev Metro stations that I am currentely writing. --Kuban Cossack 18:06, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Serhiy, I think I said earlier that the best way to define the modern usage is to check the modern media usage. In order to reduce the estimate's error, it is best to restrict the search to the Major Media, that is most well-known papers, major TV and Radio networks, etc. This is better than google news search because the latter surveys even semi-blog news sites with no consistent editorial policy while the major media is staffed with the editors who proofread the journalism work for the consistensy with their style manual. Fortunately, we don't need to comission a research project. There are search engines, some of them not free, but I have a supscription, who allow to check "major only" option in the media search. I did that and not once. At the same time, I checked Britannica and Columbia. I found that their titling of the articles is always consistent with my results of the major media search. Perhaps, they do the same thing. I just don't know. I ran this search and continue to run it every some months. As per this, I moved Kharkiv and Luhansk to their current Ukrainin-based name locations, despite these cities are largely Russophone, because the latter is of small relevance to the English usage. My conclusion was that all Oblast centers save Kiev and OdeSSa have a Ukrainian-based spelling in the media, even Mykolaiv, despite being originally named by a Russian, Potyomkin, to honor St. Nicholas.

BTW, Economist, like all major media uses Kiev too, see [1] vs [2]. Good luck. --Irpen 18:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Hi, Serhiy! It's nice to see more Ukrainian users at Wikipedia. I would suggest you however do not start with changing the spelling of our capital. We have to wait for some time until "Kyiv" becomes more common to English-speaking people.

There are, however, more impotant things. Namely the factual accuracy of the articles. Just one example: in the article Russian architecture, Kievan churches are mentioned as if they were samples of Russian architecture. There is a group of users (User:Irpen,User:Kuban kazak,User:Ghirlandajo, etc.) that persistantly push this POV (point of view).

You can find a lot of similar inaccuracies in other articles. These people break the Wikipedia policy and use the site for pro-Russian/Soviet propaganda. For instance User:Irpen and User:Kuban kazak insisted on using Soviet propaganda term "liberation" for retaking Lviv by the Soviet Army.

Finally, you can find a lot of example when transliteration from Russian is used for Ukrainian city names, while respectable English sources use transliteration from Ukrainian. These people start edit wars against everybody who tries to correct it.

So there are a lot of things to do and "Kiev" is not the major problem. But we need a larger support to improve Wikipedia and clean it from the anti-Ukraqinian propaganda.--AndriyK 18:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

And from trolling. As for names, see also this discussion we had with Michael a while ago. As for "liberating", the western literature uses this term when referring to Red Army advances not just to Ukraine but even to Poland. I will post a link later. The difficult quest is to create content. Stirring trouble due to names is all too easy. Unfortunatley for some users it is all their doing. Serhiy, if you still unsatisfied with the current state and unconvinced by the links, feel free to ask or email me. In the latter case, use the language of your choice. --Irpen 18:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Just before you continue, you want to show Serhiy this Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/AndriyK and what not to do at wikipedia. Serhiy rationale is the dominant force of a good editor and a poor one (not mentioning any names) if a user can be rational in edit conflicts and POVs then he will be a good wikipedian regardless of what position he holds. Wikipedia has seen and will see some passionate debates which is fully alright. More often than not a compromise is possible with people of compleately opposite stances on politics. AndriyK above is what Star Wars fans would call The dark side. It is very contagious and very appealing, but a rational editor will never allow himself to go there. Best of luck. --Kuban Cossack 18:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

To respond to some of the points above. User:Kuban kazak, you use the term "the English language" as if it were something set in stone. But that is not the case. Any language, and especially the English language which is rapidly becoming the language of global international communication and so gets enriched every day with new words and word forms from all over the world, is constantly changing and evolving. A decade ago major media would write "Peking", now they write "Beijin" - because they finally listened to the change made by the Chinese people. This process takes time, and in the case of "Kyiv/Kiev", the English language is in the middle of transition - from the old Russian-influenced "Kiev" to the more normal/authentic-based "Kyiv". Now, Wikipedia is rapidly becoming a major global media in itself (see http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_GSJQNNR), and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't place itself among those that show example of a good practice rather than those that follow in the rear. If that happens, millions of people around the world will be influenced by WP as one of the major media sources, and will change their own usage of the word to "Kyiv". That is why I want to make this change, and I invite everyone sharing this view to think how to do this. For me, the first step is to understand how exactly the WP rules work in terms of making the change here in a "legal"/excepted by the WP community way, and to follow those rules to make the change (or, maybe, to try to change the rules if necessary..)

Serhiy, Wikipedia is only an encyclipedia, not a political source. Although it may look like one. Our job is to present FACTS, pure facts, not opinions and not to write political pieces. Despite some attempts by our nationally consious friends, Abkhazia shall remain a breakaway republic of Georgia not an opressed independent republic. Lukashenko will be the Belarusian president not an authoritarian dictator. Speculation has no place for wiki. Now as for you argument normal/authentic-based "Kyiv" one can also reply that Kiev is Russophone. The point is this discussion is entering a loop for the nn-th time. I tried to get Kharkiv moved back to Kharkov and that failed, at such times it is better to let it go and save your energy on writing good articles. That way a) you get lots of reputation behid you, b) reputable people tend to have a lot more influence on article quality (and at changes!) than this fellow despite all his attempts he achieved NOTHING. Plain and simple. Quite hillarious might I say. --Kuban Cossack 19:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

On some other points - I agree churchers are important as well.. but I am less of an expert in those, and also my interest now is in pushing this change. But don't worry - eventually we'll do everything.. that's the main benefit of something like WP - it may actually be here even when we are no more, and other people will be improving it further and further.

That is nice to hear, but changes can have a flip side as well don't forget to WP:Be bold!--Kuban Cossack 19:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Finally, on the request re Kyiv metro stations (and please don't correct my usage of Kyiv here - this is not a main article but a conversation, and I am speaking here as I am speaking normally in Kyiv or elsewhere). I am not based in Kyiv, but I happen to be there once in a month or so, and will be happy to take the pictures. Please let me know station names and any details (the desired rakurs etc). Serhiy 18:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Definetely get the original ones and the newest ones as well. For some like Vokzalnaya, Universitet, Kreshchatik, Dvorets Ukraina, Dorogozhichi and Dnepr to name a ffew (and please don't correct my usage names here - this is not a main article but a conversation, and I am speaking here as I am speaking normally in Kiev or elsewhere ;) definetely a closeup of all the decorations. Also some shots of the surface vestibules would be nice. http://www.metrowalks.ru is a perfect example to answer your latter question about rakurs, like this example:[3]. Basically don't make it a priority get what you can. If you can't get anything so be it. --Kuban Cossack 19:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cherkasy Oblast

Thanks for expansion of the Cherkasy Oblast article. You inspired me to follow up a little bit. Actually, each and every Oblast arricle could use much expansion. Maybe you don't know that Britannica has separate articles for each Oblast that could be used as starting points. They are all brief, but strictly factual and useful. Of course we are not allowed to paste text from EB directly but we are free to use the info retelling it in our own words. Besides, WP articles are bound to be more detailed than EB's. Full version of EB requires subscription but I have one and I would be happy to help you if you need access to specific articles. Besides, the articles could be extracted, indirectly, from Britannica's sites with a small amount of web-mining skills (without cracking passwords of course, just using google).

As for Chernihiv, please note that renaming the article to a Russian name is not even in the picture and if anyone tries that, I would be the first one to oppose. In fact, I recently shut down the attempt to rename Kharkiv back to Kharkov by a different editor after the notorious decision (of questionable legality) of the Kharkiv Oblrada (or was it Miskrada?). Anyway, the usage inside the article is a separate issue. If you are interested, please take a look at this outline. If you would like to know how we arrived to it, I could give you more links, of course.

Do I take it from your edit that you come from Cherkasy Oblast? If so, please take a look at a pity state of the Kaniv article. This city with a huge legacy for our nation deserves a better article. If you have questions, feel free to ask. When someone contacts you to tell things about others, make sure you check that person's contribution (including my contributions of course) before deciding for yourself on how credible the person is.

And don't forget to announce new articles at the Ukraine portal's board. Cheers, --Irpen 17:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks...

There are quite a few sources on all oblasts on the internet, "bulo b bazhannya". Of course, they need to be verified.

I would appreciate help on another point: how does one create those clickable menues of regions etc at the bottom of a page? E.g., if you are in the Kyiv Oblast page, you can click at the stubs for any other oblast at the bottom of the page and that would take you to that next oblast. How does one create that structure? Thanks! Serhiy 20:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The advantage of Britannica is that it is mostly right on basic facts and it is mostly a reliable measure of the accepted mainstream. It does not mean that it is always right, but it does mean that what it says is usually the prevailing mainstream opinion on the issue or at least one of such prevailing opinions.

To your question, those things are called templates. They are created the same was as new articles. Instructions are at WP:Templates. Once the template is created, it can be insterted into other articles simply as {{templatename}} but the actual template sits under the entry [[template:templatename]].

As an example check and compare the article Ukraine and the Template:Ukraine. These are two different things and each has its own use, one as an article about the country and the other as a template we add to articles. I hope I answered your question. --Irpen 20:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Just to continue, for the Cherkassy box its Template:Cities in Cherkasy Oblast. From there you can edit the template anyway you like. I find that trial and error are the main two ways of practice and by copying other templates and altering them. Don't forget you have a WP:Sandbox which you can practice in. Give me a shout if you need help.--Kuban Cossack 20:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, we should make a one single template for each oblast that would consists of:

• list of Raions (on top)
• list of cities (in the middle)
• List of Villages (in the bottom)

This is a tedious work. I will try to do it for Kiev Oblast and I will see how it goes. I will leave playing with templates for Cherkasy region to you as you seem to be the most interested editor in this region. Please check out Kiev Oblast article later. --Irpen 21:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Good idea on a single template, but I suggest just raions and cities - without villages, because even a smaller oblast has up to a 1,000 villages. On another note: I saw somewhere a mentioning that you use "shch" everywhere. While this is a relatively minor issue and I am not going to go to polls over it, for the reasons of sheer simplicity and practicality I suggest moving to "sch". Two justifications: a) it's official transliteration of Ukrainian spelling into English according to the Ukrainian rules; and b) it's just simpler to write and view, while it gives exactly the same sound. Serhiy 21:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I must Serhiy if admin divisions is your thing then you have to talk with Ezhik who is the main creator of articles of admin division of Russia and since the structure of regional admin is more or less the same for all ex-USSR, maybe the two of you will be able to help each other. As for shch and sch then you find find this intersting Romanization of Ukrainian which shows the standards adopted by wiki. BUT those standards might just change if you join WP:CYR which is a tediously crawling project that is to devise a single translit system for ALL cyrilic scripts, and could use a newcomers enthusiasm. --Kuban Cossack 21:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, and "sch" is part of the "National" standard according to the Romanization of Ukrainian link you kindly referred me to. So, why don't we just use it, given that it's simple, nice, and official both in Ukraine and here on WP? Maybe I just missed smth, but that looks to me a natural conclusion. Serhiy 21:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

You know, I would actually agree with you that we might as well make it simpler (which inconsistent as we have agreed to purge the -yi,-yy,-iy endings in favour of -y). But the presentely adopted version is BGN/PCGN for all Ukrainian translits (and Russian as well as they are interchangible), as that is the most widespread system used in English. Altering a system or writing one from scratch is Original research and that is a no no. (Although I went through a medeation with Ezh on it). WP:CYR is the place to go. Although the talk page is bloody mess if you can read and make sense of it (which I agree would be worth a barnstar, a wiki award, in its own right) and then propose to take those changes on. I WILL support you. --Kuban Cossack 21:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Serhiy, I agree with you re villages. Although each village may get an article at one time or another, there is no place for them all in Oblast templates. Check the Kiev Oblast pls. I based the template there on UK-wiki one.

As for Sch/Shch, this is a separate issue, and frankly I don't care much. Unfortunately MichaelZ (user:Mzajac) hasn't been around for a while. I will email him since he was a main authority in tranlsiteration. As far as I remember, Khreschatyk is the only exeption to shch usage which we ended up with because of prevailance of Khreschatyk as per google test. --Irpen

[edit] Board vs forum

Hi, I noticed your question in one of your edit summaries. To answer it, "board" is short for "message board" or "bulletin board". Using the word "forum" is also acceptable, although I personally did not see it used as often in English, and when it is used, it is used in less formal environs. All this is why I replaced it with "board" in the first place, but I don't really care one way or the other. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 12:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! I don't care much about this either :) Serhiy 15:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The main coach station and the crossroads, Vynohrad

Please keep the picture size down. I have a high speed connection and I assume that you do as well. But please think about dial up user. Pages with big pictures can take a long time to load. Thnaks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 21:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

To determine the image size add

[[Image:something.jpg|thumb|Npx|right|thumbnail caption]]

into the code. Where N= the amount of pixels. Normally restrict to 150-350px.--Kuban Cossack 21:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of Ukraine

Hi Serhiy. I think I owe you an explanation on that one. I take no position on which theory is right and which theory is "wrong". In fact, no one can know for sure although some may seem more convinsing than others. But, and this is a very general statement, the encyclopedias don't reflect "truths". They refleck "knowledge". As such, the mainsteam accepted version should be given as the main ones. In most cases, we can safely stop at that. In some cases, and the Name of Ukraine may be the one, the criticism of the mainstream version is not a fringe conspiracy theory but an academic disagreement taken by some respected scholars. In such cases, it is OK to cite alternative versions as well, but also neutrally, without implying that they are more correct. Briefly speaking, we present the versions as they are accepted by the present day scientific community and not as which I right and which are wrong. I hope you agree with me. In no way I deleted anything you wrote, I just reorganized it somewhat. З наступаючим святом! --Irpen 21:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Zoranyi Horpynyn horod, Vynohrad.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Zoranyi Horpynyn horod, Vynohrad.jpg. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Wikipedia are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Wikipedia:Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this: {{TemplateName}}.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me, or ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. --Hetar 03:29, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Transferred the rest of this discussion to the discussion page of the article. Serhiy 04:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I enjoyed our discussion a great deal and also find it rather useful. --Irpen 04:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allow me

Can I co-sign? If so, here goes. --Irpen - A small river in Ukraine that literally flows upwards 15:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] С Праздником!

--Kuban Cossack 00:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kreschatyk

Serhiy, pls note that articles are not galleries. We can fit only as many images as the article's length allows us. For the street of the Orange revolution time, one would suffice. I chose that one because it shows the street (tent city was on the street while the protests were on Maidan). Are you sure we need more? --Irpen 22:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

You could be actually right :) Will need to think where to put it best - maybe there is some other article where it would be more relevant. No worries, I'll find it. Serhiy 22:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

To make sure the image isn't orphaned, I uploaded it to commons where I created the category:Orange Revolution. There are now two images there and we could add more as we find them. There may well be more already around at Wiki and in commons. Also, maidan.org.ua has images gallery and an entire Maidan site is copyright free, so we can add images from there both to wiki and to commons. But for now, your image is categorized and not orphaned anymore. --Irpen 22:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV in History of Christianity in Ukraine

Gigantic POV additions in article History of Christianity in Ukraine by User:Kuban kazak. Please help to clean up. --Yakudza 14:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

If you check the history of the article then today's edits were nothing but copyediting of the existing text that has been there for about months. --Kuban Cossack 14:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)