Template talk:Serbs

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Contents 1 Montenegrins 2 Cognate peoples 3 Coat of Arms of Serbia 4 Added red links 5 Serbs of Greece 6 Serbs of Chicago

[edit] Montenegrins

I am not changing "Serbs in Montenegro" to "Montenegrins" which would THEN be considered like I'm claiming that all montenegrins are Serbs. I'm changing the Red Wikilink to an article which is on the Serbs in Montenegro - Montenegrins. Its just directing to a proper article - and an article Serbs in Montenegro will probably be never made. With more certainity I can hold the "Serbs in Central Serbia" (?!) is even less likely to be created. --PaxEquilibrium 15:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll accept that for now. I don't see why those two articles shoudln't be made. Serbs in central Serbia (what me and you call Srbijanci) have a very specific culture. As for Montenegrins, they were all Serbs historically, but clearly that is no longer the case - so Montenegrin Serbs will need their own article eventually. --estavisti 16:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Who say that article Serbs in Montenegro will never be made? I just made it. :)) PANONIAN (talk) 19:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the possible new Serbs of Central Serbia article, the problem is that Central Serbia probably will not exist for long. The new constitution of Serbia predicted creation of new autonomous provinces (which is very likely to happen), thus instead of it, we probably will have to create articles like Serbs of Šumadija, Serbs of Podrinje, Serbs of South-Eastern Serbia (which is possible already covered with Torlaks article), etc. PANONIAN (talk) 20:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, should we include Torlaks article into Serbs template? PANONIAN (talk) 20:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Likely to happen - the creation of new Provinces? Like what? I've never 'eard of it - plus, the constitution isn't (yet) accepted; don't act like all those armies of annons on Montenegro during the referendum. :)

As for the latter part (Serbs of this, Serbs of that); I hope that you PANONIAN won't accept this as a personal attack or any sort of offence (please tell me if you do) - but are you at yourself? These numerious articles are already making me dizzy; I abandoned long to work on the Serbs just because of that, concentrating on Montenegrins, and your "Serbs in Montenegro" just made me abandon that as well. Looks like I'll have to stick to the good ol' Croats. You're acting like most Serbs in the 1990s, making states out of other countries where they're in majroity (Croatia - Krajina, Bosnia - Serbska, Kosovo - North Kosovo, Montenegro - Serb Montenegro?). Wouldn't've something more logical like "Serbs of Old Serbia" (grasping the Serbs in Sandzak, Metohija, Kosovo and Macedonia) be more logical - and not just these silly insane article-inflations?

Quote estavisti: Montenegrin Serbs will need their own article eventually - time is not yet. Once again I repeat, PANONIAN, don't act like that horde of annons on Montenegro and Kosovo during the Montenegrin 2006 independence referendum.

What about you talking, HRE? North Kosovo is your article, not mine, so why you accusing me that I "making states out of it"??? And what is wrong with that I created Serbs of Montenegro article? According to the last census, Serbs constitute large precent of the population of Montenegro and they are listed separate from Montenegrins in that census. So, what exactly you object here? Do you claim that Serbs from Montenegro are in fact Montenegrins or that Montenegrins are in fact Serbs or you claim both of that? PANONIAN (talk) 22:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean articles - I meant factual states in the 1990s. I believe that you moved for "Serbs of Kosovo"; and now in Montenegro. I don't know if Serbs in Montenegro are Montenegrins or Montenegrins are really Serbs - but it sure isn't what you signify (seperate). Ask a single one of us - you'll get the same responce. This was an original "Wikipedia editing Action plan" drawn by Duja and me and we were editing under that first line. The representators of the People's Party and even the Serb People's Party said ..we are Montenegrins during the Referendum campaign. Nowdays the existence of a Montenegrin ethnic group is highly questionable, and we should leave it questionable until it's no more (Montenegrins can't choose if they're Montenegrins or Serbs or whether they speak Serbian or Montenegrin - not to mention the Serbian and Montenegrin Orthodox Churches) - even Encyclopedia Britannica notes the controversy of the "Montenegrin Question" and notes that they are, in fact, a single people. Even the current Government of Montenegro claims that they are one people (that's right - Milo - whereas Serbs are viewed as separatist). If you didn't know, more votes are needed for Montenegrins and Serbs to gain seats in the parliament - whereas Muslims, Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians need less (because they are national minorities - unlike Montenegrin and Serbs).

That's why, creating "Serbs in Montenegro", you're committing POV in a way that's really unpopular (I for instance considered it offensive).

But the existence of a Montenegrin ethnic group is not questionable at all. Both states, Serbia and Montenegro, officially recognizing Montenegrins as an ethnic group, so if you say that their ethnicity is questionable, I will ask you this - who exactly claim that their ethnicity is questionable? The way how I see the solution for our problem is that article Serbs of Montenegro should speak about Serbdom in Montenegro, while article Montenegrins should speak about Montenegrindom in Montenegro. The ethnicity is a matter of choice and matter of a name by which you call your self and name that you declare in census. I mean, you cannot claim that somebody is Serb if he do not want to be a Serb. That is ridiculous. PANONIAN (talk) 00:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The last time you made Albanians in Kosovo and Serbs in Kosovo you didn't solve anything, but start a process of creating too very POV articles instead of one. Montenegrins and Serbs are treated as a single people, even according to the Law in Montenegro (did you notice the elections part). The controversy of no clear border between Montenegrins and Serbs in Montenegro is perfectly reflected in Encyclopedia Britannica. Most Serbs is Montenegro maintain how they are the only ones who retained the old Serbdom traditions of Montenegro - whereas many Montenegrins would call Serbs simply separatists, created and stayed as a remains of the Serbian propaganda. None will tell you that they are seperate nations. --PaxEquilibrium 09:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you suggest that I should created article named Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo and treat these two as one single people? And what law of Montenegro treat Serbs and Montenegrins as same? If that is so, why statistical office of Montenegro list them separatelly in census. If it treat them as same, it would not list them separatelly. PANONIAN (talk) 12:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, is this your argument that Serbs and Montenegrins are same: "more votes are needed for Montenegrins and Serbs to gain seats in the parliament - whereas Muslims, Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians need less (because they are national minorities - unlike Montenegrin and Serbs)". Well, this just mean that Montenegrins and Serbs in Montenegro have a same status. It certainly does not mean that they are same. Montenegrins and Serbs are simply treated there as two "state nations" of Montenegro, while others are treated as ethnic minorities. PANONIAN (talk) 12:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Fine. I just don't understand how you can't see a broader matter. Also, are you thinking about creating "Serbs in Dalmatia", "Serbs in Slavonia", "Serbs in Metohija" and Serbs in the Bay of Kotor"? --PaxEquilibrium 19:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

One example - Slobodan Miloshevich is a self-styled Serb, while his own brother is a Montenegrin by nationality.

Another - the Karadzichs are mostly Montenegrins by nationality - but the two most famous persons from that family are Vuk Stefanovich and Radovan. --PaxEquilibrium 20:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I know for these ethnic differences in families in Montenegro, but as I said, the ethnicity is a question of choice and our articles describing what choice people made. Regarding the creation of articles that you proposed, if we find enough information to put in them, we can create them, why not? PANONIAN (talk) 21:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Note: The Assembly of Montenegro brought a rather nationalistic decision right after WWII - how Montenegrins are the purest of Serbs; it was followed by a brief "civil war" against Tito that lasted until 1946, when Tito said that Montenegrins are Serbs different from other Serbs; he then constitutionalized the Montenegrin nationality, but not as people - but geographical determination, saying that all (even Albanians) are "Montenegrins" in the "Democratic Montengro" (reminds me of Greece). This jumping fall of the Montenegrin nationality could be simply viewed as people reawakening their national awareness - as even according to the Geography Encyclopedia of the Comminist Party of Yugoslavia: "..most Montenegrins are of Serb origin, whereas some are of Albanian.." from 1968 is this claimed. You should also understand that the current Montenegrin Academy of Science and Arts maintains a pro-Serbian view are the same people and because of its unpopularity, Jevrem Brkovic created the Doclean Academy of Science and Arts (which is, a joke more of it). --PaxEquilibrium 11:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but statements like that man said that and another one said that are not very relevant for this case. The only relevant thing is a statistics. Maybe you do not know how statistics works, but all ethnic groups that have their own statistical code in the census results are treated as separate ethnic groups. And Montenegrins have their own code, thus that mean that both, the statistical offices and the countries to which these offices belong recognize Montenegrins as completelly separate ethnic group. If that is not the case, then they would not list Montenegrins separatelly in the census results, but they would merge them with Serbs. As opposite example, you can see the Roma case. In 2002 census in Serbia, members of the Roma ethnic group declared themselves as both, "Rom" and "Cigan", but statistical office did not listed those who declared themselves as "Cigan" separatelly. Instead of this, it merged them with those that declared themselves as "Rom". PANONIAN (talk) 13:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, the census results list Montenegrins in the table that have this title: "Population by national or ethnic affiliation". The table list only national or ethnic groups. It do not list geographical groups, thus the claim that Montenegrins is geographical designation simply does not stand. The basic difference between Montenegrins and geographical groups like Vojvođani, Šumadinci, Sandžaklije, etc, is that Montenegrins are listed as one of the ethnic groups, while these geographical groups are all listed together within a line "regional affiliation". Since Montenegrins are not listed as Serbs or as regional affiliation, that mean that they are neither Serbs neither regional affiliation. When Montenegrins gained their own statistical census code, they were officially recognized by the state as one ethnic group, and statements of some politicians who wanted to explain this different are simply irrelevant because they obviously did not had a idea how statistics work. PANONIAN (talk) 13:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand perfectly - however the main arguement lied in where percisely should that article be linked. Since it incunuated a link to be clicked by anyone who wanted to learn something about Montenegro's Serbs, it seemed logical (before your creation of that article) to link it to Montenegrins, which indeed speaks about (among other things) Montenegro's Serbs. It was as simple as that. --PaxEquilibrium 19:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It's been resolved by listing Montenegrins seperately. --estavisti 19:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cognate peoples

What does "cognate peoples" mean? Is there a Wikipedia article defining that term? If Yugoslavs are cognate people to Serbs, why are Bosniaks (some (Kusturica says all) of them used to be Serbs before changing religion), Vlachs (some of Serbs used to be Vlachs before naturalising) and Croats (extensive population mixing happened throughout history, I know a lot of Croats with Serbian predecessors and vice versa) not listed? --Dijxtra 12:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Because, my dear administrator whose non-nationalist credentials are listed on the personal page, this category of "cognate peoples" seems to be, if Google is anything to go by, a category used exclusively by the Serbs. That should already sound an alarm for anyone with at least some knowledge of the recent past. One of the meanings of "cognate" is "one related by blood or origin; especially on sharing an ancestor with another". Therefore, even if we disregard the currently listed peoples under this heading on the template, the addition of those nations you are innocently enquiering about will most probably be regarded as an utter Greater-Serbian crap. Need you be reminded that Wikipedia is not a soapbox? 83.131.91.253 13:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm very glad to meet you, dear anonimous contributor, it is indeed a rare occasion to interact with such a pleasant interlocutor over such inflamable themes. You do not have to remind me that Wikipedia is not a soapbox, nor that certain points of view state that Croats are not cognate to Serbs but to Nordic tribes, Germans, Iranians or God Almighty Himself (depending of the concrete point of view in question). Although I do not subscribe to those points of view (since I regart Croats to be of South Slavic origin and therefore sharing origin with Serbs) I would like to ask you, dear anonimous contributor, to explain to me this: if Yugoslavs are cognate to Sers, then why Croats are not? Or, if you would like me to put the question the other way around: if Croats are not cognate to Serbs, then why Yugoslavs are? If you read my original post 5-10 more times (depending on the speed you mind works) you could realise that was my original question in the first place! --Dijxtra 14:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The term "cognate" in this case originally mentioned nations that are cognate to Serbs because they have Serb origin. Montenegrins and most of Yugoslavs do have a Serb origin,

Now, now... can you verify the claim that most of Yugoslavs have a Serb origin? --Dijxtra 18:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

therefore they are listed as "cognate" instead to list them as subgroups of Serbs, which would be POV. Of course, I do not object that we expand the meaning of the term "cognate" to include there Croats, Bosniaks, etc. So, Dijxtra, if you want to include more cognate peoples, please include them (I am fine with both versions). PANONIAN (talk) 18:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

No, my original intention was to show that Yugoslavs are not subgroup of Serbs. To keep this list consistent we either have to remove Yugoslavs or add Croats, Vlachs and Bosniaks. My oppinion is that we shouldn't have those ethnicities on this template and I will remove Yugoslavs from this template if this discussion doesn't produce some references that most of Yugoslavs had Serb origin. --Dijxtra 18:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

To add Vlachs? Well, why then not add Illyrians, Thracians, Sorbs, Ossetians, etc, etc...?

My point exactly. We should remove the Yugoslavs.

Depending of definition of the word "cognate" we can add various peoples here. Regarding Yugoslavs, my "Leksikon naroda sveta" claim that most of Yugoslavs are Orthodox, thus it indicate that they are of Serb origin. Besides this, most Yugoslavs today live in Serbia. Template simply speak about current Yugoslavs, not about those from 15-20 years ago. PANONIAN (talk) 00:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Ahem? Isn't that article about Yugoslavs in general? If it is about Yugoslavs of today, why isn't it named Modern Yugoslavs or something like that? Even if most of Yugoslavs live in Serbia today, that doesn't mean they are Serbs by origin (because, why would they declare themselfs as Yugoslavs?). 44% of Rusyns lives in Slovakia, which doesn't mean those are of Slovak origin, right? Connection which exists between Bokelji, Torlaks, Goranci and Montenegrins on one side and Serbs on the other just doesn't work with Yugoslavs. --Dijxtra 14:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Why they would declare themselves as Yugoslavs if they live in Serbia? Because last census was in 2002 and the name of the country was still Yugoslavia in that time - a simple answer. :) PANONIAN (talk) 02:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

So what you are saying is that those are in fact Serbs who will switched to Serbian nationality now that Yugoslavia doesn't exist? Well, good, that means that people who now declare themselves Yugoslavs aren't Serbs in majority... and that Yugoslavs should be removed from this template. --Dijxtra 07:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of Arms of Serbia

This template is supposed to be about the Serbs, not Serbia, so I'm not sure whether we should have the coat of arms of Serbia. I know that many nationalists put an equal sign between the ethnicity and the state, but I think otherwise. This image has been changed only two years ago and I'm certain that many Serbs (and I mean Serbs living in neighbouring country, not in Serbia) would not recognize it or associate their ethnicity with it. bogdan 21:32, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

If someone could cut out the Serbian cross from the coat of arms, we could use that, as it's a pretty universal symbol of the Serbs. Of course, it's not official, but it's as close as you're going to get. --estavisti 15:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ask PANONIAN if he has free time. --PaxEquilibrium 22:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Serbs022.png What would you do without me? :) By the way, I replaced old image with this one, but I do not see new image in the template. Does anybody else have this problem too or it is just another bug in my old version of Opera? PANONIAN (talk) 00:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added red links

I added the red links in the hope that someone will be reading one of the pages which use this template, see the red link, think "I know something about that!" and start the article. It already worked on me for Serbs of Sarajevo. :-) --estavisti 14:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serbs of Greece

Should this be created as well?

Not that I'm complaining, but why have been the "Croats" added to the list of cognate peoples? --PaxEquilibrium 20:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Closely related peoples... Because it's hard to find two more closely related peoples. --estavisti 20:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serbs of Chicago

I believe that with 200,000-300,000 citizens who are a part of this group (and allegedly the largest Serb city in the diaspora and after Belgrade), Serbs in Chicago are in order; if you take these steps... (I would simply have just the Serbs article). --PaxEquilibrium 22:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Па напиши, мада не верујем да их заиста има толико. Тако се говори, мада тешко сумњам ја у то... --estavisti 14:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

200,000 to 300,000 Serbs in Chicago is ridiculous. According to the last census, there were about 140,000 declared Serbs in the entre U.S. [1], while this site [2] places the number of Serbs in all of Illinois at 17,893. Even if we factored in all of the Yugoslavs in the county as Serbs, these would be shady figues. However, you can't make any assumptions about these declared Yugoslavs. At least 100,000 of them are Croats (for example, the number of declared Croats decreased by 170,000 over 10 years, mostly going to Yugoslavs). --Thewanderer 16:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The figures are Greatly underestimated, not only for Serbs but for Croats as well. The practical thing is that Chicago being the second greatest Serb city was celebrated two years ago, when all the famous Americans of Serb origin (including Vojnovich) joined-in and sang odd versions of songs to Tito :). The practical thing that the governor of Illinois is a Serb, Rod Blagojevich, contributes this. The lists do not count people who have naturalized themselves to USA. Mister Blagojevic is an American, and not a Serb; and only his Chetnik father was in the proper sense. However, I do not understand why shouldn't this be explained/defined. --PaxEquilibrium 14:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)