Talk:Sergei Rachmaninoff

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[edit] Transliteration of Name

An anon just changed the "Rachmaninov"s in this article to "Rachmaninoff"s, pointing to http://home.flash.net/~park29/rachspell.htm as justification.

Now, I don't care which way we spell it (neither is more correct than the other - they're both legitimate trasliterations and they're both commonly used), but the title of the article ought to be consistent with the spelling we use in the article itself. So, if I move this page to Sergei Rachmaninoff, will there be any complaints? Normally I'd just do it, but there's quite a few redirects pointing here, and it's going to be a bit of a hassle updating them all in the event of an edit war... --Camembert

That site seems to make a good case. Google shows 245,000 hits for "Rachmaninoff" and 293,000 for "Rachmaninov", so although it seems a minority spelling it seems not to be so by that wide a margin. Anyone who feels strongly enough about changing it, however, IMO should do the work of fixing the redirects. -- Infrogmation 03:49, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Actually, Google shows more hits for "Sergei Rachmaninov" than it does for "Sergei Rachmaninoff". I suspect that this is a more accurate measure than just looking for the surname alone, which is obviously not unique to this person. --Rebroad 18:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Anon editor, I reverted the cut & paste placing the existing article at "Rachmaninoff" -- that looses the article history. If a page is to be moved, the "move page" function needs to be used. Understand that I personally have no objection to having the article at the "off" spelling, but moves need to be done properly. -- Infrogmation 21:41, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

How about we give it a week, and if there are no serious objections, properly move the article to "Sergei Rachmaninoff"? -- Infrogmation 17:04, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yep, that's what I was planning. If you want to do it, save me a job, that's great :) --Camembert

It seems no one has objected, so I will delete the "off" redirect and move the page here. Help in changing links to our new spelling appreciated. -- Infrogmation 23:06, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

By the way, I'm almost a year off, but I thought I might as well add that the composer himself spelled it "Rachmaninoff". TheProject 15:57, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Only after he moved to the West and found that the original spelling was causing people to mis-pronounce his name. --Rebroad 18:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Transliteration is an exceedingly vexed, contentious and controversial topic. Suffice to say there is ultimately no "right" or "wrong" transliteration from one language/alphabet into another, it's all a matter of convention and context. But when it comes to transliteration of personal names, the individual concerned surely has rights that supersede those of mere linguists. Whatever the reason, if "Rachmaninoff" really was his chosen spelling of his own name, I believe the world should respect that. Like, if my name were Smith but I chose to spell it as Smyytthe, nobody has the right to "correct" it. Another example: Wassily Kandinsky - his first name is obviously pronounced "Vasily" (as per the Russian), but the spelling is what he himself chose - so that's it. Cheers JackofOz 22:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
The majority of record companies spell it "Rachmaninov", and that's probably what most users will search for. - Eyeresist 07:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I'm the person who changed everything to the "off" spelling, and also the schmuck who tried to move it the newly spelled page without using the page move feature you speak of. Sorry! I didn't know about that. As for the spelling, the biggest point for me is that the composer himself spelt his name ending in "off". --Lousyd

Welcome. Well, we do encourage newcomers to be bold in making improvements, but one effect is that when well intentioned boldness messes something up, it may wind up being reverted. Well, if you'd like to give a hand, check "what links here" and help change the link to "Rachmaninoff" after I move the article to that spelling. -- Infrogmation 23:06, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I was trying to make it so when you searched Rakhmaninow (the Russian way of spelling his name), it would redirect you to this article. I followed the directions, but I ended up writing something in the article (Right before the box that links you to all the sections of the article), and now I can't get it out. Could somebody help with this? Zade77 21:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I made a redirect for you with the spelling "Rakhmaninow". In order to do this, one needs to make a new page that has the code that makes the browser go to the "Sergei Rachmoninoff" page (or whatever page you're trying to redirect to). Did you follow the directions on this page? Feel free to ask questions if I am unclear. Adso de Fimnu 22:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I, for one, cannot believe you folks are even having a discussion of the merit of spelling the composer's name with the -off suffix. Check Wikipedia's own Transliteration table where you will find seven systems that all specify "v" as the character that corresponds to the Russian character "в". Or how about the Conventional transcription of Russian names that follows. It also specifies "v". Nevermind the fact that more than 99% of all the journalists, libraries, and internet sources use -ov for names ending in -ов. I thought the -off spelling went away in the 50's! There are only two good reasons to prefer the -off spelling. First, it is a "pronouncing spelling" (as opposed to a transliteration). The name is pronounced -off because in Russian (and German by the way) voiced consonants (b, d, g, v, z) in the final position become voiceless (p, t, k, f, s). This probably explains the second reason for spelling it that way -- the composer apparently used it. However, he lived in an imperfect world where people don't take the time to learn anything about other cultures. We don't bother to respell French and German names to make it easier for lazy Americans to pronounce -- why change Russian names? Reasons to spell it -ov abound. It's a transliteration for one. It's consistent. The composer has two "в" characters in his middle name "Vasilyevich", and both are (surprise) always spelled with "v". It's scientific and systematic. You don't have to remember each person's personal spelling idiosyncrasies. Finally, the weight of authority is on the side of -ov. The Grove Dictionary of Music uses "Rakhmaninov" if I am not mistaken. This is clearly the best spelling we're going to have for some time. If you want to debate a worthy spelling issue, talk about "kh" versus "ch". That -off spelling is positively antediluvian. Ivan Velikii 03:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The Grove Dictionary of Music also said in the 1950s that his music sucked. Fashions in transliteration will change, but one thing will always be the same: Rachmaninoff chose to spell his name with an "off". We should respect his decision. It isn't up to Wikipedia to transliterate from the Russian: "Rachmaninoff" doesn't even need to be seen as a transliteration that Wikipedians choose to make from Russian, it's simply a report of the name that the composer used for the second half of his career when he lived in the US and Europe. Even when he lived in Russia, his music was published (in French, the language of the Russian upper class of the time) as "Rachmaninoff", written in Roman characters not Cyrillic. Grover cleveland 08:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
First let me say I am not trying to pick a fight. Second, I don't expect to see any progress made on the spelling of Rachmaninoff on account of my argument. You cannot overcome the tyranny of the majority on Wikipedia, no matter how valid your point is. I'm just belatedly putting my two cents in. A couple more remarks however, if you don't mind: The critics at Grove Dictionary have removed their collective heads from their asses since the 50's -- is there currently a more respected and comprehensive single source of information for classical music? I believe all Russian names ending in -ov used to be spelled -off, accounting for the reason Rachmaninov used it. Do we even know whether he had a preference or was just following a trend which is now considered archaic? The point about the influence of French is very appropriate. It is my perception that Russian names experience a form of "linguistic colonialism", often appearing in the form of the language of the enlightened Western European country that first tamed the crude Slavic beast. I think the -off spelling is a vestige of this phenomenon. I don't like "Scriabin", "Moussorgsky", or "Diaghilev" (all Gallicized, if I am not mistaken) for the same reason. I think it is chauvinistic to maintain them. These names should be able to stand alone in their unadulterated (Anglo-)Slavic forms of "Skryabin", "Musorgsky" (Musorgskiy is even better), and Dyagilev (pronounced "Dyagileff"). I think ignorance, tradition, and inertia are responsible for the continued misspelling of many Russian names. Anyway, stepping off the soapbox, the French have evolved in one respect -- they now spell it Rachmaninov (at least on Wikipedia). If Rakhmaninov were alive, I believe he would just be happy that people still listen to his music, and care enough about his name to spell it in a manner more respectful of his Russian roots. Just my opinion...

Ivan Velikii 01:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

My guess is that the "off" spelling comes from French, which as we know was the second language of the Russian pre-Revolutionary aristocracy. Another good example of a French-influenced spelling is Tchaikovsky. A lot of music dictionaries today prefer to spell his name as Chaykovsky or something similar, which makes it very hard to look things up alphabetically... I don't see why use of the French-influenced spellings should be seen as "linguistic colonialism". English spelling is replete with words that are just spelt the way they are because of some random historical reason. For example, if you have ever been to England as a tourist, you may have noticed the strange spellings and pronunciations of many English cities, such as Worcester, Leicester, Norwich, etc. The spellings don't reflect the way the names of these cities are pronounced today, but rather the way they were pronounced many centuries ago. This all makes English a very difficult language to learn as a non-native speaker, but it's also part of the language's richness. The fact that many Russian names were introduced into English via French is just another of those historical facts... My two cents. Grover cleveland 15:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
My goodness! I would not have expected to see such a fierce debate as to the transliteration of a composer's name; nevertheless, I think I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion here, namely the "-off" spelling. As someone else kindly pointed out, this is the way the composer ultimately chose to spell his name. Regardless of how the record companies, linguists, etc. spell it, I think Rachmaninoff himself is the only authority on the matter that really counts: after all, it is his name. I think we really do have to go with what he himself chose and what we currently have. --Todeswalzer|Talk 18:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

OK Everyone, I'm sorry to reopen this debate, but the decision we've reached is the wrong one. Wikipedia has a policy! I'm surprised to see people claiming that 'what matters is how Rachmaninov spelled his name'; on the contrary, that's precisely what doesn't matter, and it is entirely 'up to wikipedia to transliterate the Russian'. Rach. was a Russian aristocrat, and like all of his peers, he spoke French, the cultural language of choice in Europe. The spelling he used reflects that, and doesn't represent some kind of informed choice; the existence of this French spelling also explains why a Google search for '-off' turns up so many hits - they're just non-anglophone sources. The standard transliteration of Russian names exists to be just that, a standard. If Wikipedia is to be considered a serious reference work, alongside print sources (and all modern print sources will use the '-ov' ending), it needs a) to reflect current scholarly usage, and b) to be consistent: how can we have 'Rachmaninoff' alongisde Prokofiev, Lermontov, Goncharov, Turgenev and so on? Editing Wikipedia isn't about theorizing and promoting your own orthographic hobbyhorse. It's about abiding by the basic rules of scholarly writing, a set of which exists to cover Russian transliteration, as pointed out by Ivan Velikii. Spelling Rachmaninov's name 'Rachmaninov' doesn't involve a massive alpahbetical shift (as 'Chaikovskii' would, for instance): all respectable sources spell it like this already. Why not wikipedia? Ajcounter 09:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi there AJ. Sorry -- your arguments in favor of "Rachmaninov" are incoherent. The "standard" transliteration you endorse would result in "RaKhmaninov" which is indeed used by Grove (it would seem strange that Grove doesn't figure in your mysterious list of "all respectable sources"!). However, Wikipedia's own policy (which you mention but don't seem to have read) says that a conventional name, where available, should be preferred to a transliteration. Rachmaninoff, who spent the last twenty-six years of his life living and making his career in the US and Europe, had ample time to establish his own convention, which he did by consistently using the "Rachmaninoff" spelling. It's even on his gravestone (which conspicuously lacks any Cyrillic characters) [1]. What reasons he had for this choice are beside the point: it was his choice and we should respect it. As for the inconsistency with Lermontov etc., English spelling is rife with inconsistency (as I've pointed out earlier in this thread). None of those other Russians spent as much time in the West as Rachmaninoff did, and thus (with the possible exception of Prokofiev) they did not have a chance to establish their own preference for transliteration. As you yourself admit, strict adherence to standard transliteration principles would result in something like "Chaikovskii" rather than "Tchaikovsky" -- but I don't see you (or anyone) arguing with the same degree of vehemence on that article's talk page -- I wonder why? Grover cleveland 20:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, fair enough. And you're right - though I have read the policy, I perhaps hadn't read it as attentively as I might have done. Nevertheless, I still think it's weird to ignore what's clearly the spelling used in the majority of cases. But I guess I'll have to overcome my emotions and move on with my life, somehow. And damn, the man could write a tune. Ajcounter 23:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name in Cyrillic

How should his name be written in Cyrillic? Guaka 13:31, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Сергей Рахманинов

[edit] Biography

It would be good if we could seperate the Biography passage into smaller sections such as "Childhood" "Teenage" you name it. This would make the article more appealing to read than just a big hunk of text. Dont you think? - Faerun

I don't think that there's much difference between the two, but do you have enough specific information about both to warrant separating it? --OFX 16:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, is the information outstanding and important enough to justify the separation? --OFX 16:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] pianoparadise.com

Discuss whether this site should be added as an external link Rachmaninov MP3 download audio MP3 files of his major works for free.

Thank you for modifying every post I make, I am not asking for only YOUR opinion, which is why I posted this in discussion. You are wrong becuase audio is working just fine. You also say that classical MP3's should be searched on google, not WP, yet what is this link:

Maybe we should remove all links pointing to free audio mp3's? Evidently you can't have it both ways.

No, Wikipedia is not a link dump or a place off which you can score resellers' commission. You have spammed a number of other composers' articles with links to this site, which merely serves as a link factory to amazon and sheetmusic sellers. The MP3s aren't even on the site; they also just link to one or two external sites. And the biographies just seem like copies of wikipedia content. It adds absolutely no value in my opinion, and those in search of classical MP3s can use google if they really want to find music. Dewet 15:53, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me Mr. Dewet, but have you really tried the page out? The reason I ask is because NOTHING of what you said is true! The page is actually quite stunning. You can listen to a vast amount of classical piano music online. Rachmaninov, Fauré, Ravel etc. There are NO pop ups as you say. Right now I'm listening to Rachmaninov's Prelude in G major. The sound quality is surprisingly good. I can't understand what the fuzz is all about. Doesn't wikipedia want to expand the amount of free-source information on the web? If someone reading about Rachmaninov has the chance to actually HEAR some of his music, wouldn't that be the perfect dictionary? Check it out, and reconsider. We do not live in the Dark Ages anymore. Time to step out of the box. Regards - Rich

I think that that last post by Rich was unnecessarily hostile and almost personal attack on Dewet. Dewet makes some valid points. Wikipedia was created to "expand the amount of free-source information..(at least to my understanding)" but although relevant, links to clips of Rachmaninoff's music does not necessarily contribute to the article as a whole. I think they would do better here. --OFX 16:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Style / works

I added a big chunk of new information on his style and works. I made a new section for his style because I think it's an obvious facet his music. --Dri3s 03:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Did Rakhmaninov write anything in a major key? I'm sure he must have, but for the life of me, I can't think of anything, nor can I imagine what it would sound like. --3-13-06
The eighteenth variation on a theme of Paganini, of course. Also, listen to the Vespers. Granted, they're not all Rachmaninoff's melodies, but they certainly are his work as a whole.Adso de Fimnu 03:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
His 24 Piano Preludes consist of one piece in every key, like Chopin's. Therefore half of them (12) are in major keys. The Vespers and some of the songs are also in the major key. Grover cleveland 07:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US Citizenship

When did he become an American citizen? JackofOz 01:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Does anybody know the answer to this? I'm looking for a date if possible. JackofOz 14:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
A web search on "Rachmaninoff becomes us citizen" turned up this link: [2]., which gives the year as 1943 (no date though). Here is another link which puts his citizenship at "five months before his death", which would make it in late 1942. So I guess that narrows it down to late 1942/early 1943. Google is often faster than asking people on talk pages :) Grover cleveland 15:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, indeed it is. The only reasonable explanation is that I googled, unsuccessfully, before I posted the question. Thanks for narrowing the search down anyway. JackofOz 13:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
February 1, 1943, as written in wife's recollections [3] Goudzovski 15:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah ha! Thank you so much. 03:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reputation as a pianist vs. composer

From the introduction:

While his reputation as composer only came later in life, Rachmaninoff's skill as pianist was well-known and highly respected; he often performed his own works as soloist.

I am pretty sure that this is backwards. Rachmaninoff only started to play piano full-time after he emigrated to the U.S. In Russia he was known mainly as a composer and conductor. I don't have time to look for references now but when I do I'll correct this.

Grover cleveland 07:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music samples and fair use

We need some critical comment on the particular performances featured in the sound clips otherwise a claim of fair use is not justified. See WP:Fair use#Audio clips:

Brief song clips may be used for identification of a musical style, group, or iconic piece of music when accompanied by critical or historical commentary and when attributed to the copyright holder.

Right now there's no critical or historical commentary. Also, there's no copyright attribution. Ideally, we would have multiple performances of the same music and a critical comparison of them.

Grover cleveland 07:09, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hand span

The Guinness Book of Records (1986 edition) says he had the greatest recorded span, which covered 12 white notes and he could play a left hand chord of C, E flat, G, C, G. This does not seem to appear in later editions. JackofOz 03:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American Composer

According to this entry, he was only an american citizen for a month, before his death. That´s why I think that we shouldn´t insist in his "american condition". User:Mistico

So what? He was a composer and he was an American citizen. What's more, he lived in the US for half his professional career. I'm putting it back. Grover cleveland 03:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You don´t need to put it back as you can see. I was just questioning if it was right to include him in the two american categories he´s in, since he was an american citizen for such a few time. He lived many time in USA, but before his naturalization, he was a foreigner living in USA. If he had been an american citizen for, at least, an year, I would have no objection about him. User:Mistico

[edit] Name That Tune

I honestly don’t know where else to ask, so… is the theme music on the Daily Source Code a remix of something by Rachmaninoff? It plays at the beginning and end of most episodes, accompanied by some guy saying “The power of pure intellect.” —Frungi 20:20, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Found it. It’s a remix of a performance of “Vocalise” (14th song of Op. 34, Fourteen Songs). —Frungi 19:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "RACH-man-in-OFF"

I was confused by this: "Rachmaninoff ended some of his major works musically with a rhythmic pattern - a long, two shorts and a long (as in the endings of the Second and Third Piano Concertos) or three shorts and a long (as in the ending of the Second Symphony), which is sometimes thought to relate to the prononunciation of his surname (RACH-man-in-OFF)." My impression was that all Russian words, including names, have a single stressed syllable, and that in the case of Rach., it's the second. Who has suggested that this might be the significance of the recurrent rhythmic idea? Ajcounter 16:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I've just tried to pronounce R's name in a way that sounds a little like the last four notes of Piano Concerto No.2 and I'm now well and truly convinced of two things. First, that's not how you say the name (it's ridiculous); and second, even if that were how the name was pronounced, the 'pom-pa-pa-pom' ending is so totally banal that it would be impossible to link it with a particular composer's signature. I'm getting rid of it. Ajcounter 09:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
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