Talk:Serbs of Croatia

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[edit] Good article

Good article, and I believe an image inclusion is worth it but I don't think the statistics box is necessary as it makes it seem like Serbs from Croatia are a separate ethnicity from Serbs in the Serbs article. Antidote 01:34, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I think a proposed List of Serbs from Croatia is getting a little silly, seeing as it would just be a small selection of people from List of Serbs. Antidote

[edit] Serbian nationalistic myths

Serbian nationalistic myths shouldn't be included in the article, at least not without being noted as such. --Elephantus 16:21, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Only facts no myths! Truth hurts doesn it? Luka Jačov 16:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, it hurts some people(s) so much that they tend to replace it with myths. --Elephantus 21:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with the article

There were some inaccuracies here:

  1. Claims that Einhard somehow mentioned a place Srb in Croatia are false. The text in question apparently runs:
    "Liudevitus Siscia civitate relicta, ad Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatie partem obtinere dicitur, fugiendo se contulit"
    Now I don't know much Latin, but it appears that the only mention of the Serbs is "Sorabos" which is the accusative plural of the Serbs. Claiming somehow that it means he fled to Srb in Lika strikes me as... a stretch beyond the breaking point.
  2. Organization of the Military Frontier was pioneered by the Turks who settled Orthodox auxiliaries to weaken the enemy by periodic raids. It was later copied by the Austrians. Serbs today seem eager to bury this "Turkish connection", but some, like eg. Radovan Samardžić in the appendices about Yugoslav history he wrote for the Serbian edition of Encyclopedie Larousse (Belgrade, 1973), do admit it.
  3. Of course, Gundulić and Bošković claims, completely baseless, or "based" on falsehoods obvious to those who aren't Serbs on first reading.
  4. Sources for the Serbian, Bosnian and rest of the world numbers?

--Elephantus 21:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

  1. You mentioned only one sentence from Einhards chronics.
  2. You didnt write about Military Frontier??
  3. Bošković was Serb for sure cause he father comes from dominatly Serb village Orahov Do but when he moved Dubrovnik cause of Law in Dubrovnik that only catholic faith is aloved he was forced to convert Luka Jačov 22:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


  1. The other sentence mentioning Sorabs isn't much more enlightening: "Allatum est Imperatori de interitu Lindeviti, quod relictis Sorabis cum in Dalmatiam ad Lindemuslum Avunculum Bornae Ducis pervenisset, et aliquantum temporis cum eo moratus fuisset, dolo ipsius fuisset inter fectus." Still no mention of Srb in Lika anywhere.
  2. What does "You didn't write about Military Frontier??" mean?
  3. Orahov Do was as much Croatian (Catholic) as eg the neigbouring village of Ravno. It was "Serbian" only in the minds of those Serbian extremists who claim that most Croats are Catholic Serbs. The alleged "conversion" is in fact an article of faith, often mentioned but with no source whatsoever. Serious Serbian propagandist works don't even mention it, relying instead on other things to try to connect Boskovic father with the Serbs. --Elephantus 23:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I will consider only Bošković and Gundulić part. Many references claim that Srb was mentioned in 9th century. Luka Jačov 11:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ban Jelačić

"this is not only about historical Croatia; but the territory of present Croatia too"

Well, that is a problem. He was listed here among "Prominent Croatian Serbs" with explanation that his mother was Serb. But he was born in Petrovaradin, which is not in the territory of present Croatia and which also was not in the territory of historical Croatia in the time when he was born. In both cases, he is not "Serb from Croatia". In fact, he is not Serb at all. :) PANONIAN (talk) 04:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rudjer Boskovic

User:Elephantus appearently thinks that I am joking about Rudjer Boskovic. If he need some sources that are not biased, etc...; he should see the Development of Astronomy among Serbs volume II or Razvoj Astronomije kod Srba II, a Publication of the Astronomical Observatory of Belgrade or Publikacija Astronomske Opservatorije u Beogradu edited by M. S. Dimitrijević; Belgrade, 2002. It refers to Boskovic as the first Serbian Astronomer, and one of the greatest astronomers and diplomats of the XIX century. If anyone calls this book biased; he is biased. :) --HolyRomanEmperor 19:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

And? Umm, maybe it will switch that honor over to Edmond Halley if it is discovered that his great-uncle wrote a sentence about Serbia somewhere? And maybe it will do some more research and find out that Boskovic lived in the 18th century? --Elephantus 00:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
That was a typo (my bad). No, it does not speak anything of its origin. In fact, 99% of it deals with his life and work. It is not just another piece of nationalist propaganda. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:08, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Forgotten answers

About Srb: There is no mention of Srb in the Royal Frankish Annals whatsoever; he was reffering to (western) Bosnia most probably, although this is still an issue of debate.

About Rudjer:

Serbian ancestry: There are some propagadist sources like Srpstvo Dubrovnika and the list of noble Ragusian Serbian families like

Coats-of-Arms of several Serbian families in Dubrovnik and there are sources like Ruđer Bošković, ancestry which carefully explains his situation, but User:Elephantus has denied even that source. Other sources confirm his conversion to Catholicism like The Virtual Library. There are no sources whatsoever that deny his sources otherwhise. Two of the three theories of the ancestry of the House of Boshko (to which Ruđer belongs) confirm Serbian ancestry (the third confirming a Montenegrin ancestry, who was actually of Serbian orientation)

As Serb: He is known as the first Serbian astronomer according to the Development of Astronomy among Serbs volume II; a renown book that is a Publication of the Astronomical Observatory of Belgrade from april, 2002. Other sources like that of Vlastoje D. Aleksijević, who wrote in most detail about Rudjer Boskovic in his Životopis Ruđera Boškovića, građanina Dubrovnika i sveta (Biography of Roger Boshkovich, a citizen of Dubrovnik and the world) confirm that he was a Serb; as well as almost every edition of The Universe; a magazin that has been published for decades by the Astronomical Society of Belgrade Ruđer Bošković, which was founded to continue his legacy. The Catholic Encyclopedia and several versions (but not the present) of Encyclopedia Britannica are also confirming his Serbian nationality. Rudjer is found on the list of 100 Greatest Serbs. Although there are argues that he should be present there, no hard enough reason not to put him there was presented. A Serbian-culture organization that can be located at www.rastko.org (it is a very famous organisation) regards him as a Serb. In 2005 and Italian branch of the site was to be put into action, but it got delayed; the commercial can be seen on the link which I presented. It was to be built in fame of two famous Serbian-Italian individuals; one of them being Ruggero.
As non-Serb (Croat): His face appeared on every Croatian dinar bill of the 1991-1992 wartime Republic of Croatia. The television in Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro B92 had shown an interesting matter, filmed by the BBC (together with that series regarding the Fall of Yugoslavia; appearently, the presence of Boskovic on the bill caused an near-international crisis; until Croatia finally replaced its currency by the kuna bill, which has no record of Rudjer whatsoever. The other Croatian source is a postmark of the fascist World War II Independent State of Croatia (where he is present). The current version of Encyclopedia Britannice refers to his father as a Croat, but denying to distance itself from reffering to Rudjer as Serbo-croatian. The Great Soviet Encyclopedia also regards him as Croatian.

All in all, he deserves to be put into the article, but we will be sure when www.rastko.org finished their Italian branch (very soon). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HolyRomanEmperor (talk • contribs).

Hm, wait a second. On one side, we have sloppy Serbian propaganda articles, created after the nationalist explosion of 1990 quoting other sloppy Serbian propaganda articles created after 1990, and on the other side we have serious encyclopaedic works (and btw, Britannica doesn't mention him as a Serbo-Croatian, it just gives a version of his name in what it terms "Serbo-Croatian"). Whom should we trust? That's a hard one. Maybe there was an anti-Serbian cabal in place in Moscow in the 1970s and it moved to the USA in the 1990s? :-) --Elephantus 17:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

You are being a little one-sided. Here we have Serbian nationalist propaganda as sources (Serbdom of Dubrovnik) (which has actually never been proved as incorrect). You said "created after nationalist explosion of 1990" As I said, the Astronomical Society of Belgrade Rudjer Boskovic has been printing the magazine Vasiona for decades (during the 60s, 70s and 80s it was very famous). You asked for non-nationalist sources. I presented you the old Biography of Rudjer Boskovic by Vlastoje Aleksijević and the Development of Astronomy among Serbs II from april, 2002; both being informative sources about his life and works (no nationalism). You are being one-sided as you seem to accept only sources that regard him as Croatian and deny all sources regarding him as a Serb. It's strange how you don't notice it. The Virtual Library also confirms his transition to Catholicism. This source speaks in full detail about his origin, and I fail to see that it is biased as it is quitte informative and historic: Ruđer Bošković, ancestry Although appearently, the main problem is that regards Rudjer as a Serb. You were also refering to the Catholic Encyclopedia which is actually an encyclopedic work. Note about Encyclopedia Britannica: If one sees the previous versions of the encyclopedia Britannica, he will notice that the source keeps switching with Rudjer's ancestry from Serbian to Croatian and vice versa (the next edition will probably regard him as Serbian). His Serbian identity was confirmed by the three greatest experts in the field of Dubrovnik in Serbia and Montenegro personallly (check with User:Millosh for confirmation if you don't believe me). Did you count the Rastko Organisation (a huge database that has received more rewords of international degree than we can count) as Serbian propaganda too? The Military Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia (is that after 1990 :) also confirms him as a Serb. I mentioned the 100 Greatest Serbs, but you have disregarded the list as nationalist (without detailed explainations), so we'll have a blind eye on that. And then, aside from Croatian Ustaša and 1991/1992 nationalist propaganda, we have the slightly propaganda/communist Great Soviet Encyclopedia.

Any rational person would see that the situation is far too complicatly that just so narrowly as User:Elephantus seems to see it. We will have definite answers when the Rastko Organisation finishes their Italian branch (as I had previously mentioned, they're running a little late, see the commercial on the bottom of www.rastko.org; or better, if User:Joy returns from his break, who has much more experience than me in dealing with controversial subjects and nationalists. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] changes made by User:Elephantus and other

User:Elephantus had evicted several prominent Serbian individuals and deleted all sources/references of the article.

For the other matter, the place "Serb historian claim..." is POV. Since that fact is internationally accepted, like can be seen at Brockhaus' encyclopedia (the best German ecnyclopedia on Earth). --HolyRomanEmperor 14:38, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Elephantus had removed a large chunk of the article and called it removal of my nationalism. Although that edit could be regarded as vandalism, it is necessary for me to point out that he was reffering to the ever-lasting controversy of Rudjer Boskovic. Still, because of one fact, it is highly inappropriate to remove large portions of an article just because of one bit. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:43, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

The article is currently written from a Serbian (nationalistic) POV, especially in regards to the History section. Also, the list of notable Serbs requires clarifications and footnotes on the status of the so called "Catholic Serbs" it includes. I have also removed the Jelačić mother part until a reliable source is found. --Elephantus 19:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Reasonable. The History section must be reworked; but where's the confusion on the Catholic Serbs? If you aim at Rudjer Boskovic, let's finish that discussion first... Oh, and don't you think that your last post needs a NPOV tag too? (read it again :))) I'm looking for Jelacic's sources... --HolyRomanEmperor 20:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Žumberak

I am not disputing the census information but:

  1. Žumberak isnt only municipality in Žumberak region, it also compromises parts of Samobor, Krašić and Ozalj municipality.
  2. As they converted from Orthodox and became Greek-Catholic they became something between Croats and Serbs, and gradually many started to declare themselfs as Croats.
  3. Cause vaste majority from Žumberak doesnt live in it we cannot trace how do they declare now.
  4. If you look on the map which shows representation of Setbs by settlements in 1981 you ll see that in area aroun village Radatovići in today Ozalj municipality that it is Serb inhabitated.

Luka Jačov 09:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Response:

1) When you add ALL of Samobor, Krašić, Zumberak and Ozalj municipalities, you have a total of 296 ethnic Serbs and 47033 ethnic Croats, according to the 2001 Census results (out of a total population of 48,522 people). Ethnic Serbs make up slightly more than half of one percent of the population of the four municipalities you cited. Even assuming that ALL of these declared Serbs live in the "Zumberak areas" of the four municipalities, the percentage of Serbs is still negligeable.

2) The 296 Serbs represent one tenth of a percentage point of the Serbian community in Croatia. We might as well list Medimurje as a region with Serbs in it since there are 248 Serbs listed in that zupanija.

3) Ethnic origins of Greek Catholic Zumbercani are mixed, at best. Many of the last names have Montenegrin origin while others are particular to Zumberak. However, I do not believe that a categorical assertion of "Serb" can be made because some of them lived in Glamoc before supposedly coming from Montenegro. We do not know whether these people came from other Orthodox areas before settling in Zumberak.

4) Even if ALL of them were Serbian 500 years ago, this would not make them Serbian today. Ethnic communities exist, particially on the basis of self identification. Therefore, if Zumbercani do not identify as Serbs (except perhaps in one small village), then who are we to declare a group Serbian.

5) It is interesting to see the Zumbercani diaspora. They established two Greek Catholic churches - one in Cleveland and one in Chicago about 100 years ago. Both churches identified themselves as Croatian - not Serbian. Indeed, the vast majority of Greek Catholics from the region are involved in Croatian ethnic societies in North America.

5) I just don't see the point of listing "Zumberak" as a region with "smaller numbers of Serbs" when one could literally memorize the names of each Serb in the area.

15:30, 17 April 2006 Redina

[edit] accuracy disputed (Luka Jačov deleting references)

Luka Jačov keeps reverting my changes and deleting very important references to croatian 2001 census, which proves that Serbs in croatian speak croatian and serbian language, not so-called Serbo-croatian. Here is what he does all the time: [1].

Please, someone, stop him vandalising this page. He obviously has a problem with references that proves him wrong. --Ante Perkovic 11:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

Please discuss before engaging in edit war. This page is now protected so you have some time to cool off and discuss. Please do that. --Dijxtra 09:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm unprotecting this page now. But, any substantial change to "Language" section of this article has to be discussed here. --Dijxtra 16:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Next person that makes undiscussed revert will be blocked for 24 hours. --Dijxtra 16:36, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language

What they declare is merely political preference and this will only make confusion among readers. Luka Jačov 08:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Nope.
It is your political preference that will only make confusion among readers. Wikipedia is based on verifiability, citing sources, not on POV political preference of some editors. --Ante Perkovic 08:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Last word should have experts not censuses, you can name same thing in different names. Luka Jačov 09:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is a description of the Serbs in Croatia. Therefore, the census data is relevant here, since it shows what name is used by this ethnic group for the language they speak. I will return the paragraph, but without the irrelevant assumptions. --Zmaj 10:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not cause we are talking about what they speak not what they declare. Luka Jačov 12:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You said you can name same thing in different names. It really buffles me why the term that you use should be put before the term that 200 000 serbian speakers use. This is not your private website, but this information somehow keep bouncing from your mind.
What you do can be explained only as a extreme stubbornes in pushing your political preferences.
I can believe that you keep dismising official census of a country as an unimportant source.
Gees, you are one of a kind. You just don't know when to stop, do you? --Ante Perkovic 13:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

60% of them use that term others use term serbian nonetheless this doesnt mean they speak different idiom. Luka Jačov 17:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You are completely offtopic, Luka.
You see, text you deleted wasn't about the name of the language at all. It was about the term that Serbs of Croatia use when they speak about their language. It was pure fact, not someone's oppinion. Basicaly, you censored it because you didn't like it. --Ante Perkovic 17:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As said before this would only create confusion among readers and census data isnt so releveant when one could espect that they speak Serbo-Croatian and not Chinese or whatever. Luka Jačov 18:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no confusion, it's merely a peculiar thing. The Serbs of Croatia have stated on the census that they don't feel that the language their speak is different from those that the Croats of Croatia speak. Theoretically they should all have said that they speak Serbian (for example, the Serbs in BiH do that), but they didn't. It's only confusing if our reader is an amoeba that can't comprehend information that isn't completely consistent. I'm sorry that you want to disparage the reader like that, but I do not. --Joy [shallot] 01:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

One the other hand 40% declared Serbian, when in fact its the same idiom. How cant this create confusion?! Luka Jačov 20:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Where are these 40% who declared Serbian? If 1.1% people declared Serbian, and there are 4.5% Serbs, that's 24.4% at most.
Secondly, the confusion can be fixed by linking the appropriate articles. Linking only Serbo-Croatian creates the impression that this is current data - but it is not, it's old nomenclature. --Joy [shallot] 10:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

They always spoked same idiom as Croats they leaved with so no way about Croatisation. Croatian standard language is based mostly on idiom of Croatian Serbs. Luka Jačov 22:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Luka,
You can't just revert complete other people's contributions. This make you look extremely stubborn. You are becaming living example of WP:POINT. You could at least change a few lines to make it look like you actually read what Joy wrote. This way, it's obvious that you didn't even read it.
You are disruption to this wikipedia. Just, grow up, for god's sake.
I'll skip comenting your original research about bases of croatian Serbs (unrelated to your change, anyway) and I will say only this:
Serbs of Croatia in eastern Slavonia have separate schools because they want to learn serbian language. There is no way that you can make neutral contributor back you up. You should now that.
Your reverts shows that you are loosing nerves. Maybe you could taje a rest for a few days and thinka about everythink. I would like to see you here, but only after you cool down a little.
Please, don't let your pride and stubbornes make you look silly.
--Ante Perkovic 22:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I am willing to compromise only if naturaliazation and croatisation sentence is off. Luka Jačov 09:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the standard dialect is based mostly on the that of the Serbs and Croats of eastern Herzegovina, which is fairly far away from both the Croats and the Serbs of Croatia :)
I wasn't aware that you disagree with the stance that this involves naturalization and Croatisation. I agree with that stance to a certain extent, but not completely. Right now I can't find a logical explanation of your stance. It's the same idiom - but there's no longer a Serbo-Croatian, and people at census say so. We state clearly that it's the same idiom (by explaining it's štokavski/ijekavski). We also state clearly what they say at the census. What else needs to be done to appease you? Why do you keep reverting most edits that I do? --Joy [shallot] 16:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Eastern Herzegovinan is biggest shtokavian dialect and it is spoken on much greater are then East Herzegovina. Serbo-Croatian exists not as unique standard form but as joint name for four dialects and three standard forms. Serbs that declared Croatian and those who declared Serbian speak in fact same idiom and that makes census data unrelevant. Those who declared Croatian only wanted to state that their language is no diffrent from their neighbours. Luka Jačov 09:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

But if you say "Serbo-Croatian language" then this implication that it is merely a joint name for the four dialects and three standard forms is fairly obscure. And if you agree with my assessment that the census data simply says that the population doesn't feel their language is different from the one of the majority population, then why do you keep reverting my edits that explain this nicely? Is it better to keep this unexplained, and leave it to the anonymous vandals to keep inserting it as a talking point? I don't believe it is. --Joy [shallot] 23:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Luka's I am willing to compromise only if naturaliazation and croatisation sentence is off.

OK, let's explore this possibility. So, Luka, You are willing to let parts related to census to stay if we delete this part related to croatisation? I'm not sure id that's what you wanted to say, so please, clarify your proposal. --Ante Perkovic 12:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

You understood. Luka Jačov 15:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Luka, You just confirmed that you are willing to let one information stay if we delete other, unrelated information. This is a blackmail!
Luka, I told you before, and I will repeat one more time - this is not your private wikipedia. You either agree with the census part or you don't! You can not bargain with the truth and trade one information you don't like with the other.
I always knew that this is the way you see wikipedia, but I needed you to confirm it.
You just did.
Regards, --Ante Perkovic 10:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


Okay, I've polished up your last edit, are we done now? --Joy [shallot] 21:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian stays, thats my compromise. Luka Jačov 08:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

/me cries. You really have to be an ass, don't you? --Joy [shallot] 10:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You really have to be an ass, dont you? Luka Jačov 20:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not being an ass here, I haven't reverted your edit. But I don't doubt that other, less considerate people will in the future.
And, for your information, the correct demonym for Yugoslavia is indeed "Yugoslav", not "Yugoslavian". --Joy [shallot]

Whats the problem? Luka Jačov 12:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Um. The problem is that you are using the wrong adjective for the toponym. It's "Yugoslav", it's not "Yugoslavian". How many times do I have to repeat that? --Joy [shallot] 13:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry then, you are right. This was misunderstanding. Sorry! Luka Jačov 14:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] edit warring (again)

I see we have an edit war here again. Now I feel like a teacher with a bunch of naughty kids. I didn't think I'll have to enforce my threat of blocking on grounds of non-discusing, but since I said I'll do that, here's a list of undiscussed reverts:

Now I will block this users for 24 hours.

As for Luka, he has been very smart. He was very careful not to break WP:3RR, nice work there. But it is plain to see that he is the person who re-initiated this edit war... then again unfortunately I don't see the grounds to block him and I don't want to be accused for blocking without proper reason. But, since I'm not blind, since I don't like being manipulated and since I've had enough of edit warring on this page, I will now present this case at WP:AN. Something needs to be done. --Dijxtra 15:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I reported this case to WP:AN. --Dijxtra 15:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed text

I removed the text that wa highly POV here. The problems with the text are described below

However while the above table may represent the official Croatian position there are 2 very massive problems with it.

Firstly the 100,000 refugess Elsewhere in the World is not supported by anything. Were there to actually be 100,000 Krajina refugees in Hungary, Slovenia or western Europe generally it would have been expected to be noticed as, for example, much smaller groups of Roma from the Czech republic or indeed Kosovo Albanian refugees there who decided not to return have been commented on. There simply is no evidence of survivors on this scale. Further a glance at the map above also shows that Serb refugees fleeing Croatian Nazi death squads only route of escape led to Bosnia & Serbia not western countries.

Secondly & even more seriously, the table gives a combined total of survivors in Bosnia & Serbia of between 300,000 & 450,000. However the OSCE report on the subject says specificly of the refugees from croatia that only "some 200,000 of whom now live in neighbouring Serbia & Bosnia". Since the OSCE is a pro-western body it is inconceivable that they would distort figure in a manner beneficial to the Serbian case, quite the reverse.

This means that there is a discrepency between the people known to be alive under Croatia Nazi authority & those "accounted for" of between 200,000 & 450,000 human beings.

Since the western powers assisted Tudjman, the Croatian Nazi leader by supplying him with weaponry, in the case of Kohl's Germany & officers & command systems, in the case of Clinton's USA, despite, or because of, knowing that he was already on record as saying that "genocide is commanded by the word of the Almighty" their total lack of concern as to what happened to several hundred thousand innocent men, women & children must be taken at face value. The manner in which the media of these countries has also been able to censor virtually all reporting of this genocide also displays not only a total lack of any honesty but a similar lack of human decency.

POV parts:

  • Since the OSCE is a pro-western body it is inconceivable that they would distort figure in a manner beneficial to the Serbian case, quite the reverse.
  • Serb refugees fleeing Croatian Nazi death squads
  • under Croatia Nazi authority & those "accounted for" of between 200,000 & 450,000 human beings. - implying genocide of 200 000 to 450 000 people?
  • Tudjman, the Croatian Nazi leader
  • their total lack of concern as to what happened to several hundred thousand innocent men, women & children - conspiracy theory?
  • The manner in which the media of these countries has also been able to censor virtually all reporting of this genocide also displays not only a total lack of any honesty but a similar lack of human decency. - POV, conspiracy theory.

To sumarise, this text is so full of conspiracy theory crap, labeling and POV that it is much easier to move it here that to leave it in main namespace. If someone finds that few sentences could be used, use ti, but don't return the hole text.

-- Ante P. 13:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2001 census

The article say that according to the census "there were 18 municipalities with a Serb majority" in Croatia. Does somebody know the names of these municipalities? Their names should be mentioned here as well as created links to articles about these municipalities. PANONIAN (talk) 02:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I checked the census ([2]). There were actually 16 municipalities with a Serb majority in 2001. I will add them to the article with their respective counties. --Zmaj 08:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Predrag Stojakovic

...should be added. --HolyRomanEmperor 11:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population of Serbs in Croatia

Added examples of territorial changes throughtout contemporary history that would lead to the fluctuation of the relative proportion of Serbs in Croatia. iruka 10:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

"Heavily" Serb populated region? Considering the fact that only a northern third of Syrmium was a part of civil Slavonia (or Croatia-Slavonia) and only for a short time, isn't this overestimating (especially the heavily bit). --PaxEquilibrium 16:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I know it had a very large Serb population relative to other peoples and in terms of population density. The statistical phenomenon that I am trying to convey with this and other examples is that the inclusion/exclusion of different tracts of territory in a Croat state entity e.g. ranging from medieval Croat dukedoms, to Kingdom of Croatia to Croatia-Slavonia to SR Croatia, will have a bearing on the proportion of the population of Croatia that were Serbs. How would you rewrite it? iruka 23:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
But are you aware that you're talking about several square kilometers that had no major settlements and compose about a quarter to a fifth of geographical Syrmia..? --PaxEquilibrium 17:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition Required

Some definitions are required b/c what is meant by Croatian Serb. I take it to mean someone who considers themselves Serb & reside in Croatia, but may or maynot be a citizen of the Republic of Croatia. This would be consistent with notions of national minorities in most western countries. People that identify themselves as Croat but may have as a Serb heritage I think would fall into a different category. Thus some definitional categories may include:

1. For Serbs that reside in modern day Republic of Croatia; 2. Serbs born in a previous iteration of a Croatian state e.g. Banovina Hrvatska, NDH etc 3. Serbs who reside outside Republic of Croatia but were born in Croatia; 4. Serbs who were born & reside outside Republic of Croatia but trace their ancestry there; 5. Serbs who were born outside Republic of Croatia but currently reside there.

iruka 01:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Added reference to YCP membership as a factor in determining police/military ranks;
Pointed out that Croat & other Euroeans were part of the miitary class in the frontier. iruka 07:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You're putting (I know - unaware of it), not info about Serbs, but really info about Croats. That's why I rv Your edits Marinko - please concentrate on Serbs. --PaxEquilibrium 17:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of the edits is to provide context in what otherwise are misleading statements.
Lets go through each one:
  • The toponym Srb - the way the article is written it states the connection of the term Srb and Serb are related when this is only a theory. You have mentioned that Croat historians dispute it. All I have done is fleshed out the basic premise of both Serb and Croat linguists views on the matter. This addition is needed to ensure NPOV. I have rewritten the paragraph anew and put a footnote - pls advise your view on it now.
  • Shortened my explanatory note of Vlach-Serbs to Throughout the late Middle Ages, the term "Vlach" was often used to describe Serbs. That is because many of them were Serbs while alot of those that weren't would go on to develop a Serbian identity through religious affiliation. Most of the migrants that passed through Croatian lands were nomads.. I don'T understand how Vlachs could be Serbs b/c they were Nomads. The Roma were Nomads, as were the Wallachians, and Albanians. It didn't make much sense to me thus I have changed it to mention that they were just nomads. Happy to leave it at this unless you can explain otherwise;
The part about Serbs being a military class is misleading because it connects this to the Yugoslav overrepresentation in the officer corp, whereas this has more to do with the hegemony of the largest ethnic group and communist party membership. It is also misleading, b/c Serbs, as well as Croats, Germans, Hungarians, Wallachians, Ruthenes were part of that military class. I know this is an article about Serbs, but you need context otherwise it is creating a false scenario in the absense of said context. Can you rewrite it to remove such ambiguities pls. iruka 13:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I know Your good intentions - I just hope You know what You're doing. The "Vlach" Serb origin theory relies itself on nationalist xenophobia, rather than historical facts. It is mostly used to represent how there were no Serbs in Croatia before the national romantic period, but these go together with the theory how "Serbs" are a "confederate ethnic group" and that up to the 19th century Montenegrins were not considered Serbs, that Eastern Orthodoxes in Bosnia-Herzegovina're really Orthodox Bosniacs, and that all Orthodoxes in the Ottoman Empire are not Serbs, but simply Orthodox Slavs. That ideology is mainly there to show that the Serb nationalist territorial pretensions to Croatian lands are unfounded (yet the very same that support this theory, amazingly, admit "GreaterSerbianism" as legal - for they would not work on these things and point them out otherwise). A good comparison are the claims that (Catholic) Dalmatians were not Croats and that there was no Croat in BH and Slavonia (and the rest of Hungary) up to the romantic ages. Over here, theories of how the Albanians on Kosovo are "Shquiptars", and not Albanians have ranged from scientific essentially true researches of Jovan Cvijic, who calls them "Arvanites", different from Albanians, to the modern disgusting and xenophobic theory of them being "not really Albanians" (Serbs're "not really Serbs, but Vlachs") and has become into a feeling simpathetic to the Albanians themselves, but opinion on how these Kosovar Shquiptars are some God-forbid mutant Alban-like race that's a disgrace to the world. In Croatia it's even worse, as Belgrade as some sort of a "conspiracy center" is being accused of manipulating all those Vlachs, and turning them into Serbs; eventually becoming an all-out Serbophobia. Then again, Vlachs in Croatia're more autochtonous than Croats themselves (there were no Vlach migrations - the 1242 migrations to Knin were inner-Croatian ones) - so the contradiction lies in the theoreticians' themselves, again with their own nationalistic ideologies stabbing them in their backs.
Choose carefully around this, very, very carefully. --PaxEquilibrium 20:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I see your point but must confess to being perplexed that any such manipulation by extreme nationalists would be taken seriously. Also I think a people's origins are irrelevant to their existential concerns. Ironicaly, from what I understand, in Croatia, you have many Croats who were are descendent from Austrians, Hungarians, Ruthenes, Slovaks, and some other Slavic groups etc in addition to Croats. Likewise with Serbs, you have their origins in Serbs, as well as a variety of other Vlach communities and other Slavic and non-Slavic groups. I think in most cases, the process would have been fairly organic.
How about if we state that the term Vlach was both used as an umbrella term and interchangeable term with Serb, however given the solidifying of modern national identities around the confessional rule (although not exclusively), most modern scholars equate the term Vlach with Serb. iruka 04:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
What is "Old Croatian"? As far as I know, there is Old Slavic. That linguistic theory was found false by many, as serbati, srebati does not mean "to sip" in Old Slavonic (including the Croatian recension). And Serbian linguists do not claim that - historians do (linguists stay off history), but (some) Croatian linguists do claim that which you added. --PaxEquilibrium 20:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't say for certain what Old Croatian as it doesn't explain in the source. I can only guess that it means a word that was previously used in Croatian but later became redundant or evolved. I'm pretty confident that it isn't a reference to Old (Church) Slavonic.
If the first reference is a toponym, the study of place names is fundamentally one of linguistics and history is it not? That's why included linguists. iruka 04:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, that sounds fairly reasonable.
  • You're right. However, that can be only (the Croatian recension-) Old Slavonic and nothing else. Everything else dates from a later period. --PaxEquilibrium 18:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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