Talk:Serb clans
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Way Serb clans, hier are Montenegros and Albaniens clans? The Montenegro clans are not Serb clans??? --Hipi Zhdripi 13:46, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
They was orthodox clans bot not Serb clans. Is not so simply to say evry orthodox clans belong to Serb clans. They was part of Bizantin clans and not part of Serb clans.--Hipi Zhdripi 13:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] This is too Serbocentric article
... and is talking about solely Monetenegrin and surrounding clans. Serbs have none connections to these customs, neither they have any similar to these. So, naming it with "Serb clans" is complete error with facts. The article (and links) should be carefully edited.
You've got to be joking right? The article on "Serb clans" is "too Serbocentric"? Also, as a descendant of a member of one of these clans, I find your suggestion that they're not Serb ridiculous, not even offensive. Get a life/therapy ;-)--estavisti 15:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Shameful article
Can somebody to write neutral article about Montenegrin and Brda clans (not Serb clans)? My origin is in Brda and I'm not SERB, definitely. And the best solution is to change name of this article to Montenegrins clans.--Dzemper 22:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Haha, maybe you're not Serb, but your ancestry was... you can't delete historical facts ! --Nexm0d--
- You know that better than me? And write here some historical facts, example for clans of Rovci or Cuce. --Dzemper 10:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure thats source of njegos.net, neutral and good for wikipedia, neutral encyclopedia?
[edit] Rename the article to "Bratstvo and Pleme in Montenegro"
I propose that this article is renamed to "Bratstvo and Pleme in Montenegro". This is because the translation of "bratstvo" and "pleme" into "clans" is misleading and does not give any good reference to their contemporary character.
Different authors have translated "bratstvo" as either 'clan' or 'lineage' and some - as 'brotherhood'. In English each of these terms have different connotations. 'Lineage' for instance is defined in anthropology as a kin group that can trace its ancestry from a particular person in history and recount all the descendants from that person to the present day (which is not always the case in Montenegro). In addition - lineages are most usually discussed in context of Africa (e.g. in Evans-Pritchard's famous works). 'Clans' are also problematic. On the one hand they are conceptually connected with Scottish highlander system. On the other hand, clans are often used to describe contemporary criminal association and in this context used in contemporary Montenegro (in Serbian form - as 'klanovi') but this kind of usage is not usually connected with the traditional kin groups of 'bratstva' in Montenegro. Brotherhood in turn in English represents usually fictional kinship (as in religious organisations).
Moreover - usage of terms like clan and tribe has been criticised by many authors because it often reflects misleading etnocentric views of 'developed' western researchers to the 'undeveloped' and 'tribal' 'rest'. What has been often described by the same terms in different parts of the world may represent different things in reality.
Renaming also will help avoiding the problem of whether these are Serbian, or Montenegrin or Albanian or indeed ancient Illirian (as several authors have speculated). The system of bratstva in Montenegro is characteristic not only to (orthodox, christian, Serbian/Montenegrin) population but also to Albanians and extends to Albania and Herzegovina.
I also would argue against the classification of bratstva into 'territorial' and 'lineage'. Partly because of the above terminology issues but mostly because this does not have any sense from the point of view of real situation. Each bratstvo can have people who live more closely to each other and some - that live in distant parts of Montenegro and/or abroad. Thus - in fact both are the same and this classification is artificial. Bezvardis 11:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you Bezvardis.--Dzemper 17:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the intro part of this article, giving a definition of Bratstvo and Pleme and explaining the relationship between the two. I also added the reference to Cvijić but I am not sure that the list below is the list he came up with since I don't have his book available. Could somebody check and correct the list accordingly.
I deleted the reference to Turkish etc occupations as primary reason for creation of plemena since it is very unlikely that plemena did not exist before (taking in consideration that Ivan Crnojevic could not grant any privilegies to something that already did not exist)
I deleted the section of Dispersed Ancestral Clans since it is not clear where the list comes from and whether they indeed are bratstva or plemena?
Corrected the title of the map.
Also - the list at Njegus.net is much shorter and I suspect that the list here contains now not only Plemena but some Bratstva as well which it should not.Bezvardis 19:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What parts of Herzegovina have Plemena?
I am not aware of this. What used to be called Eastern Herzegovina in the 19th century(Banjani, Drobnjaci)is now part of Montenegro. The reference to Herzegovina should be removed. The only reason I can see for its existance is to present Plemena as not exclusively Montenegrin.Momisan 11:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the comment. I corrected the text accordingly. --Bezvardis 18:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] No, no, no
I have no bad intentions. The current names gives a total of 0 Google search results and violates the basics of English language (and is unsourced - as per WP:NOR). Thereby, I rv back to its original naming. Also, I'm removing the Serbianization of the article (English language please!). --HolyRomanEmperor 09:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Additionally, the article is offensive - it tends to avoid "Serb Clans"; when afaic the population of East Herzegovina in Republika Srpska - as well as the Serbs in the Brda of Montenegro and in Boka are descendent. It also avoids the historicity of the Headsmen's statements. --HolyRomanEmperor 09:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Zbor
The Montenegrin Zbor glavara (the collectivity of each and every Head of each and every clan) wrote on 21 October 1711 to the Russian Czar Peter the Great:
- Ми, сва горе наведена племена и старјешине све разумјесмо и Вашем царском крилу главе приклонисмо, и Вашег посланика, Михаила Милорадовића примисмо за нашег команданта и пуковника. И како су били његови стари изабрани у прва времена при нашијех благочастивијех и светопочившијех царевах српскијех, тако и ми са радостију примисмо врлога и храброга који се на боју добро понаша.
Opsti Crnogorski Zbor (now with the Highland chiefs as well) counciled and wrote in September of 1742 to the Russian Czarina, stating that they're: православно-грчке вјероисповијести, синови Цркве Источне, који се налазимо у српској земљи - Скендерији, Црној Гори и Приморју.
The Zbor Glavara wrote to a Chief in Russia ин 1752, stating that its: у далеким странама српске земље, у предјелу црногорском.
The Crnogorski Zbor wrote to the provider of Kotor, Justinian Bert, on 24 October 1765 that they're: православне вјере христијанске и закона Цркве Восточне, а рода честна и света славеносрпскаго.
The Zbor Glavara announced in June of 1789 that they're of цијеле заједнице Срба Црногораца and wrote to the Russian Empress Catherine II about themselves: ми Срби Црногорци нећемо бити остављени без помоћи and then add: кад бисмо имали организацију и џебану ми бисмо сву нашу славну српску земљу испод ига варварскога отели, с нашом браћом Србима који се сада налазе наоружани с намјером да ударе на непријатеља са свих страна.
The Zbor Glavara wrote in 1792 openly to the Venetian Senate:
- Ми смо хвалећи Бога цвијет од вјере и од закона православнога грчаскога, језика и славнога јунаштва српскога.
The Свеопшта народна скупштина Васојевића brought at the end of 1829 or beginning of 1830 the Vasojevici Code in 12 Points:
- 1st point: 1. Да се беспоговорно умире сва братства васојевичка и србљачка. Ко не буде олџија, да буде нагонџија.
- 4th point: 8. 8. Ко српско украде па се уфати, да плати дупло и кметовима ручак. Ако се не уфати, да му је арам.
[edit] ...Try to understand
You "montenegrins by ethnicity" should know that the clans of Montenegro were Serbian clans of Montenegro, not Montenegrin clans, in all papers from the arrival of Slavs until WWII shows that the people/clans of Montenegro were (and still are) Serbian. // Nexm0d
[edit] Please try avoiding politics
I would suggest avoiding politics (as much as possible). The reason why I suggested changing the title of this article (see above in this discussion) is that the English term 'clan' does not correspond well with the reality in Montenegro and in different English language sources 'plemena' and 'bratstva' are being inconsistently translated as clans, tribes, lineages, brotherhoods etc. Moreover, they are to a great extent unique and therefore should not be mixed/directly compared with 'clans' in other parts of the world.
Regarding whether these are 'Serb', 'Montenegrin', 'Albanian', 'Illiric' or whatever - I know that some people can argue to loss of voice regarding this, therefore I suggest to avoid this proprietary approach and simply treat it as a social phenomenon existing in the territory of present-day Montenegro. Moreover - it is strange to have a list of 'Serb clans' with at least two (Piperi and Kuci) which are described as 'Serb/Albanian'. Meaning - plemena are difficult to describe in terms of nationality and better stick to the territory. That does not avoid all problems, but allows to escape unnecessary political debate.
I also previously had removed the 'dispersed ancestral clans' since their definition is unclear. All 'bratstva' today are 'dispersed', i.e., members of bratstva are not all living in one territory but all around Montenegro and indeed - the whole world. Plemena on the other hand are a territorial unit and as such cannot be 'dispersed'. Please correct me if I am not right.
Also - please someone who has better knowledge than me regarding particular plemena/bratstva go over the list of them and try separating bratstva from plemena. I suspect the current list is badly mixed up. I have never heard that there were or are almost 100 plemena in Montenegro (as it is in the current list)
--Bezvardis 08:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] More on terminology
Referring to 'serbianisation' of the article, i.e., usage of native terms instead of 'tribe' and 'clan' please read the articles in Wikipedia which define and describe what is 'tribe' and 'clan' and then try comparing them to 'bratstvo' and 'pleme'. You will see that there are some overlaping but also significant diferences as well as drawbacks of these English terms when applied to particular situations. This additionaly explains why the English 'clan' and 'tribe' should be avoided here. --Bezvardis 09:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What I don't like...
Is presenting the Highland, Coastal & Easternherzegovinian tribes as Montenegrin as well (when they weren't). Ironically, their descendents mostly consider themselves Serbs (some exceptions with the coastalmen), whereas nearly all Montenegrin clanmen consider themselves Montenegrins in the national sense. --PaxEquilibrium 22:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Drobnjaci
As far as I understood, there is a lot of controversy regarding the issue if the Drobnjaks are Montenegrins or Herzegovinians. They are considered Herzegovinian, and they geographically are surely in Herzegovina, but as far as I know, they're Old Montenegrins. --PaxEquilibrium 17:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] My Theory
This map shows you a present day Montenegro. I am from this region of Sestan (Albanian: Shestani). Shestan steches from Brisk (Brisku) to Uzdabic (Ucdabaj) near Crrmica ((Rumija Mountain)). Althought there are no more people (Mabey 10 families, the most) in Shestan they were and are all albanian. Im not saying that all of these clans were albanian but many were of mixed stock. for example the Maleševci clan: Đokić which in albanian is translated in Gjokaj, Đurović = Gjuraj, Janković = Jankaj (Livari, Ljare), Nikolić = Nikolaj, ***Skender*** (You mean to tell me SKENDER is serbian?), Stanković = Stankaj. And Especially Piperi where i know of Albanians that are actually from there. Everyone can argue either way, but it is fact that some of these places where "Serbs" Claim to have these tribes albanians do and have inhabitited these villiages. --Ljare 12:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
