Talk:Second Congo War

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Contents

[edit] General Discussion

This article is riddled with so many dubious propaganda-sounding claims and is seriously deficient in citations.


Just to say that this really deserves some attention. It's one of the biggest events in recent years on our planet. No need to wait for the collaboration of the week - contribute now. It doesn't matter if you know little - pick a few sources, read them, and then write. DJ Clayworth 14:36, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I was really amazed that the article didn't exist, and wasn't even mentioned in the list of ongoing conflicts, so I created the stub at least. I guess the reason is that it's not in the Western media. - pir 14:59, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'm wondering how much should be merged in from the later paragraphs in History of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. They're fairly well writtten though of course, this page could explain the recent events in much more detail. --Junesix 15:52, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)
I think that's a good idea. There's only three paragraphs on the Civil war in History of the Democratic Republic of the Congo but they would at least help. DJ Clayworth 15:55, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am hoping, if Congo Civil War is chosen as collaboration of the week, to deal with the coltan issue.--Xed 23:36, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Question on agreements

Why was all the stuff on the various agreements removed? Filiocht 09:04, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It appears that only the headings were removed. I put them back in. Maurreen 13:54, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The text was also removed but User:Xed put it back earlier. I have no reordered them as they happened over time. Wonder if we could get amy more images for this article? Filiocht 13:55, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article candidacy

Over at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates, the Congo Civil War nod is being shot down quickly. Anyone care to defend, further improve? -- user:zanimum

I am reading 3 books on the subject, and will improve the article over the next couple of weeks. The article is also CotW on WP:Bias. By November, I'm sure it will be a more likely candidate for a featured article- Xed 13:20, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I intend to do some work on this when i get the time too, I don't think it feature quality yet though. O'Dubhghaill 20:16, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] BanyanTree

User:BanyanTree deserves major applause for all the work here. Grand job sorting out categories for combatants. Wizzy 11:32, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Informative links

Here are some sources to help get you started:

[edit] More informative links

DJ Clayworth 14:36, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Maps in chronological order

[edit] Other maps


[edit] Issues under Discussion/To Do

[edit] Structure and Organization

Organisation of the article is messy. The "Origins" section discusses parts of the war, while the "Course of the war" also discusses the war's characteristics.

  • After making the armed group section so long, it completely broke the flow between the Origins and Course sections, so I moved Groups to the bottom after Effects. Also moved the Course section header before the paragraph describing the events of 1996. The first sections are still confusing though. BanyanTree 05:51, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Lead Section

The lead section should give a more extensive summary (given the length of the article).

[edit] Specificity

  • The article has a lot of generallies, largelies, mostlies, and similar vagueness. Can we get a bit more specific?
  • Not much specificity about the commercial interests involved in the war

[edit] Timeline

suggestion: can't we make a timeline of this war? Bontenbal 14:28, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • No timeline

[edit] Armed Parties Section

  • The armed parties section should have more content than just a list of parties, which are mostly red links as well. "armed parties" needs to give a brief account of the objectives of each party, if any, and the extent to which the various parties are allied into factions. If there estimates of the number of combatants in the various parties, that also needs to be given.
    • I just did a Mai-Mai page (way too many red links!), and it seems that the term is general enough to include the "local militia" that was on the list. Once there's enough info on the armed parties it'll be a lot easier to write out short 'bios' of the groups, or even integrate it into the description of the conflict. BanyanTree 02:57, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I managed to put something up for Banyamulenge, and decided to dump my notes on groups and acronyms into the armed group section of the article. It's the ugliest thing I've ever done on Wikipedia but hopefully it'll keep people from spending half an hour trying to figure out the difference between RCD-Wamba and RCD-Goma, or FDD and CNDD, like I did. BanyanTree 22:43, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Diagram - [1], Human Rights Watch Armed Groups (Ituri) [2]

I added a template to the First Congo War and this page to try and cover all the names. Much of the content comes from the list of names already here, I just alpha-organized and sorted based on type, e.g. militia, army, etc. Hopefully this works well. Publicus 15:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures and Graphics

  • The pictures need to be better. The only photo is from a minor player. Pictures of Mugabe and Kabila senior and junior needed. Needs more (and more relevant) pictures
  • The map is semi-useful, but a map showing major incidents in the war (or so) would be better. needs a good map to show rough extent of the territory held by the various sides.
    • The map on page five of the ICG report "Scramble for the Congo" is incredibly good in showing the rough area held by various forces in 2000 but it gives credit to IRIN, where I can't find it and figure out if there's a copyright BanyanTree 19:17, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • There's a series of maps here: [3]
        • Now those are good maps. I really hadn't realized how much territory the RCD-N was holding. Unfortunately, the website copyright leaves no wiggle room. The good news is that it also has the "28 March 2000" IRIN-CEA map that ICG used, so I'm hoping that it's open source... and that someone can find it. BanyanTree 15:34, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
          • If not, they can be recreated. Another map (Jan 2000) is here: [4]. It's from this page: [5] - Xed 16:15, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • You folks are doing an outstanding job. Especially appreciate all the Lords Resistance Army related stuff. User:Wikiwizzy
      • Banyan deserves nearly all the credit for the LRA article - Xed 21:41, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Resolved Issues and Finished To-Do

[edit] French vs English

Is there a Wikipedia convention for using the French names of groups, such as RCD or MLC, vs the English translations? I've been using the French versions, as the way the English gets contorted to fit the French acronyms annoys me, but I noticed that some of the links are for English translation, like "Rally for Congolese Democracy". Clarification would be much appreciated. BanyanTree 05:44, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Ahhh, just found the relevant page stating it must be in the relevant language of the readers. I'm moving the content for RCD to Rally for Congolese Democracy, but not without being annoyed at using the English when most of the English-language sources use the French. Apologies to those who wrote the English versions, only to see me go all Housekeeping Zombie on them. BanyanTree 15:58, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation between the 1960, 1996 and 1998 conflicts

The globalsecurity.org link above is to the wrong war. The right one is here O'Dubhghaill 20:12, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well spotted. I read the right one but linked the wrong one. (Does this mean we need to disambiguate Congo Civil War?) DJ Clayworth 17:04, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] An earlier war?

A book that I was just flipping through absent mindedly this evening (The New Internationalist World Guide 2003/2004) places the start of the Congo Civil War in 1960 when the DRC gained independence, with its origins placed at the Berlin Conference in 1884. This is certainly diferent to the 1998 date given in the article. I'm far too tired to make a start on it tonight, but perhaps someone might wish to incorporate these earlier influences on the civil war into the article? -- Graham ☺ | Talk 23:44, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's a different war. I beleive the war they are referring to was the one concerning Lumumba, Tshombe, America and Belgium. Their influences on the more modern conflict are possibly better left to the article on the history of the DRC. The BBC give a brief timeline of DRC history you can check. [6] We will have to note that the title Congo Civil War can refer to a number of wars. O'Dubhghaill 16:39, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The articles on the two wars should be called something like Congo Civil War (1960-1965) and Congo Civil War (1996-) or maybe First Congo Civil War and Second Congo Civil War, with Congo Civil War being a disambiguation page. Gdr 14:43, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)
The problem with this solution is that some refer to the two main phases of the Congo Civil War (the current one) as the first and second congo civil wars --- Xed
  • Article name. There was an earlier Congo Civil War (1960–1965), so Congo Civil War should be a disambiguation page with the articles on the two conflicts somewhere like Congo Civil War (1960) and Congo Civil War (1998).

[edit] Second Congo War

I believe the article should be renamed "Second Congo War", with "Congo Civil War" redirecting to it. An article on the "First Congo War" (the war that brought L Kabila to power) would need to be written (currently it's only mentioned in passing in the Origins section). The red link at the top of the page ("Congo Civil War (1960)") would be better named as the "Congo Crisis". I've got these names from various books on the Congo. - Xed 17:51, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Yeah, I have to admit to being a bit confused by how the article, and conversations on this page, bounce between the 1996 and 1998 start dates. I haven't heard a definitive labeling of the various phases, though "AFDL war" (used in an ICG report) for the earlier conflict has a certain elegance.  ;) A brief "Congo Civil War" article leading into "First Congo War" and "Second Congo War", perhaps with a separate "Armed Groups" article, and placed in a network of related articles (that aren't all red-linked) sounds ideal. I'm just not sure the article is ready to be split. Thoughts? BanyanTree 06:13, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • I think there could be an 'armed group' section within both "First Congo War" and "Second Congo War" articles, since many of the groups had split and changed alliances in the 2nd. Also, there were many more groups in the 2nd. So it would be confusing for someone researching the 1st to read about the groups in the 2nd. - Xed 14:45, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • Good point. I get confused just with the ones in the 2nd. BanyanTree 17:24, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

After doing a little poking around on the web, I agree strongly with Xed's suggestions above, namely 1960 Congo Crisis[7], 1996 First Congo War and 1998 Second Congo War. As this issue has plagued the page for a while, it's probably worth expediting unless there is an objection. Unless someone else wants to do the honors of moving the article to a new page, I'll try to calm my itchy fingers and wait a few days.

As a secondary issue, I would like to propose that we take Gdr's suggestion that Congo Civil War be disambiguation, with text that points out that the phrase has been used for the 1st and 2nd civil wars together as well as just listing the three conflicts separately. Thoughts? BanyanTree 07:04, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Death Toll

I thought the death toll was a matter of much debate. How cewrtain is this number we are reporting? Rmhermen 15:18, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

  • IRC report appears credible. BanyanTree 18:36, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • The front page currently suggest two different death tolls. The first is backed up with a link to the IIRC. Surely there should at least be a footnote to back up the claim of 6.5 million? Caillan 10:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
  • The second figure, as well as a number of other unsourced and seemingly POV additions, were added by 69.228.26.60. More specifically, it seems that the editor has been inserting anti-Ugandan and Rwandan material, but I don't know enough about the situation to make a proper judgement on that. Still, I would recommend deleting most of the addition in the absence of any sources. Impi 10:34, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I've removed all of 69.228.26.60's edits. - BanyanTree 17:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Apart from the death toll, some of the edits were accurate, if emotive. - Xed 22:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
True. I did pause over the "1000 deaths a day currently" as I've certainly seen sources that back that up, but this leads into the definitional issue of if it belongs in an article that whispers that it only covers up to 2002, and then keeps going at the end. I'm frankly not sure what the total is for post-2002 deaths. Also, the anon definitely overstates his case, lumping Rwandan Tutsi and Congolese Banyamulenge into the term "Tutsi" and then stating that the Uganda and Rwanda and their proxies alone are to blame for the deaths. The sentence that implies that Kagame is under the control of Uganda - once again overstating relationships. Given the tone and phrasing, I felt it would be better to start anew, though if someone thinks they can salvage something, by all means do so. - BanyanTree 22:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Many Banyamulenge would be happy to lumped into the term "Tutsi". And who can deny that Rwanda is to blame for many (most?) of the deaths?. Due to the genocide in Rwanda, I feel that people are often over-sensitive in criticizing Rwandan Tutsis.- Xed 23:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
It's the use of those "many" and "most"s that distinguish us from the anon. There was certainly tensions within the RCD that illustrated that it and the RPF were not identical. Like I said, there were some things that may be worth drawing out. I do not feel a need to rush and do so, but the article is better off with the POV additions out than in.
As for shying away from criticism of the Tutsis, I think this article basically says Rwanda (and Uganda) started a war that killed almost three four BanyanTree 00:20, 21 October 2005 (UTC) million people, during which they looted the countryside under their control and stood by as tens of thousands of women were raped. I don't think we're in any danger of being called Tutsi apologists. The facts speaking for themselves and the emotionalism simply distracts from and discredits the facts being presented. - BanyanTree 00:18, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Case for Genocide

The following links were assembled by El C. They should be assembled into a section on the case for genocide in the Second Congo War article. Dosai 18:03, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

  • http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAFR620222002?open&of=ENG-COD -- "The organization receives consistent reports of large-scale killings of unarmed civilians that are carried out, ordered and condoned by leaders using ethnic affiliations to acquire or maintain economic and political power. As a result, armed clashes between members of the Hema and Lendu ethnic groups has left an estimated 50,000, mainly civilian, dead since June 1999, and forced around 500,000 people to flee, with 60,000 displaced in Bunia, the capital of Ituri province, alone." (emphasis added)
  • http://www.unis.unvienna.org/unis/pressrels/2001/sc7186.html -- "RUHUL AMIN [Bangladeshi Director General for Multilateral Economic Affairs (MEA) of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Counsellor Permanent Mission of Bangladesh to the United Nations at the Security Council] said he was outraged to learn of the crimes of genocide in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the extremely disturbing reports of some 750 civilians being been massacred. Armed forces continued to harass and make arbitrary arrests and there was forced recruitments and rape. He said the Interahamwe had committed a reign of terror; it was time to bring an end to such activities."
  • http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3869489.stm -- DR Congo pygmies 'exterminated.' The International Criminal Court is being urged to investigate "a campaign of extermination" against pygmies in the Democratic Republic of Congo. (6 July, 2004)
  • Google cache -- "Media echoes Nujoma's [President of Nambia] condemnation of genocide in DRC"
  • http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1340266.stm -- UN warned of DR Congo 'genocide' (2001) *** "The Democratic Republic of Congo and its allies have accused the UN of ignoring a "genocide" of 2.5 million people in the rebel-held east of the country. '[W]e call upon the international community, especially the UN, to condemn this genocide being committed,' said Namibian President Sam Nujoma."
  • http://www.allthingspass.com/uploads/html-UVM_Lecture.htm -- [keith harmon snow lecture: WAR CORRESPONDENT, GENOCIDE EXPERT AT UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT, 15 March 2005] In 2004, Snow worked for Genocide Watch and Survivors Rights International documenting crimes against humanity and genocide in Ethiopia and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). His reports have influenced the World Organization Against Torture, Human Rights Watch, the United Nations and the US Government. *** he big story is Congo, Snow says, where some six million people have died since 1998. And the war started in 1996, and before that there was Mobutu Sese Seko, the dictator of thirty some years. Thousands and thousands of women and girls have been raped in Congo, but its pretty much kept quiet in the news. There's a lot of powerful mining interests in Congo, and you wonÕt believe who is involved.
  • http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=242324&area=/insight/insight__comment_and_analysis/ -- which brings us back to Njabu Ngabu: "'If you put the meetings, the financial support and the house together, clearly it’s a relationship,' Anneke van Woudenberg, author of the HRW report, told the M&G. 'There is no way AGA could have got access to the Mongbwalu area without developing a relationship with the FNI,' she added. The report quotes FNI leader Floribert Njabu Ngabu as saying: 'I am the one who gave AGA permission to come. I am the boss of Mongbwalu.' "
  • http://www.crimesofwar.org/onnews/news-congo.html -- 'Can the Inetrnational Communityavert genocide in the DRoC?' May 21, 2003] "'Our evaluation, from what we know, it could be a genocide' said Carla del Ponte, prosecutor for the UN war crimes tribunals for Yugoslavia and Rwanda on May 13, referring to the latest outbreak of violence in the Democratic Republic of Congo."
  • http://www.monuc.org/News.aspx?newsID=2874 -- Apperently rebel leader, General Laurent Nkunda, self-corrected himself on whether genocide had taken place in Banyamulenge. *** " 'I withdraw unconditionally. I was mistaken. There has been no genocide against Banyamulenge in Bukavu,' Laurent Nkunda told MONUC officials yesterday evening."
  • http://www.monuc.org/NewsPrint.aspx?NewsID=2908 -- rebel leader, General Laurent Nkunda misquoted? *** Interview: VOA: "Apparently you told MONUC your were misguided as to the genocide of Banyamulenge. When did you find out you were mistaken?" G.N: "I didn't say that, and I was surprised that they put those words in my mouth. Once we began the war, they asked me to speak, but today at least people spoke in my place. That is what surprised me. But I never said that I had made a mistake, because until now I known there was genocide. I have the names of the victims. Until now, I am waiting for an investigation to be set up so responsibilities can be established."

[edit] Uganda to pay?

[8] [9]

[edit] Operation North Night Final

Operation North Night Final started.--TheFEARgod 11:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cuba???

"Nevertheless, the fall of the capital and Kabila, who had spent the previous weeks desperately seeking support from various African nations and Cuba, seemed increasingly certain." Why would he seek support from cuba?--216.201.175.194 15:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

In one of those unexpected historical interactions, Che Guevara was briefly a sub-commander under Kabila during the Congo Crisis. I don't think I know of any sources that address it directly, but I figure that Kabila thought he would try his old revolutionary contacts. - BT 18:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Course of War section needs a rewrite

I've been looking over the "course of war" section and it needs some work. Most of it belongs on the First Congo War page, not this one. The whole Kabila's march section is unnecessary for this article and really needs to fit into the First Congo war article. I'll take a stab at in a bit, but it looks like some serious editing, so if someone else is up to it, please help yourself.Publicus 18:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent elections

This page still says that the first AND LAST free democratic elections in Congo were held in 1960. Could anyone who knows about it add some information about the recent (2006) EU-sponsored election?

I've added a link to Democratic Republic of the Congo general election, 2006. - BT 13:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

In the factions part(and (less) in a refugee camp remark), it says:<start quote>

Extremist Hutu-aligned forces

Included Rwandan Hutus responsible for the 1994 genocide, <end quote> I think this is not accurate, and rather a result of the rwandese media-outlet. Most probably it included a few 'responsibles' (perhaps 'involved'), but quitte some refugees and radicalised hutu's(victims) from after the rwanda genocide. This way Kagame's excuse for genocide in Congo is validated, i fear because of our own embarrasment that we let it happen. Since most african country's find reconcilliation an answer rather then revenge (Kagame ), perhaps someone can rephrase these instances. eg. by putting perhaps or supposedly or held .

I prefer: included rwandan hutus held<< responsible etc. Yet it doesn't say all, because it was probably a mix of people involved (not persee responsible), ppl. held responsible(as in involved) by mistake (eg. for organising a refugeecamp), people just called 'responsible' for ease (in fact for being hutu), and ppl. traumatised in other ways (many dead village/family members etc). Similarly the swift takeover of power in refugeeareas in congo by hutu militants was facilitated through their persecution and fear for more of that 80.56.39.16 03:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

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