Talk:Second Battle of El Alamein

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Second Battle of El Alamein article.
Please sign and date your posts using four tildes (~~~~). New discussion topics go at the bottom of the page; click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Frequently asked questions. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Talk page guidelines Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Don't bite the newcomers!

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Related task forces... African military history task force Australian military history task force British military history task force German military history task force Italian military history task force (c. 500–present) New Zealand military history task force World War II task force

The tactical details and the description of the battle by the original author left no room for improvement :). Added the first bit "The Situation" to juice the introduction up with some figures, and added Rommel´s sick leave.

Nov 3rd 2003 cyberhunne

I removed this from the 'deception operations' category. Virtually all major battles in WWII will have had an element of deception, so if the category is to be useful it should only refer to operations that were entirely (or mainly) about deception. DJ Clayworth 15:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

---

Contents 1 Artillery Preparation 2 Verification 3 "Allies" vs. "British" ? 4 Order of battle 5 Citation 6 Photograph 7 AN ITALIAN FRONT WITH GERMAN SUPPORT 8 INSTEAD OF "GERMAN DEFEAT", AT LEAST "GERMAN-ITALIAN" DEFEAT

[edit] Artillery Preparation

The article says 882 guns fired about 600 rounds each during the opening barrage - that's 529,000 rounds fired. Can anyone confirm that? Seems like a lot of ammo to expend even by Allied standards. It's much more than what was fired at the beginning of Goodwood or Cobra, for example. Just wondering. DMorpheus 15:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verification

User:Kerbabs made some edits whose accuracy should be checked by some1 knowledgeable. Ksenon 21:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Allies" vs. "British" ?

I am not sure why the latest edit replaces all usages of "British" or "Britain" with the less-specific "Allied". Isn't it the case that almost all the troops on the Allied side in this battle were in fact British or British empire? There was also a brigade of French and some very small other units, so I suppose the argument can be made that "Allied" is the more accurate term. But the allied force was overwhelmingly British and it seems to me better than they be so described. Just my two cents. DMorpheus 15:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

In the first place, it is technically incorrect to refer to Indians, Australians, South Africans or New Zealanders (as opposed to UK forces) as British. Moreover it is often regarded as offensive. The official collective term at the time was "British Commonwealth". In the second place I think you'll find that the UK forces were in a minority numerically. Grant65 | Talk 23:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd personally prefer to use Commonwealth then, as "Allies" includes the United States and the Soviet Union (among others). Oberiko 15:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, "Commonwealth" is both accurate and specific enough. "Allied" is unnecessarily vague although it is not strictly inaccurate. DMorpheus 16:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you'll find that use of "British Commonwealth" is wrong. Although founded in the 1920s, it then only included the (independent) predominantly white Dominions (Canada, Newfoundland, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa). This excluded India and Rhodesia, both of which had units in the 8th Army. Also, correctly speaking, the Ghurkas, coming from Nepal, were/ are neither British nor Indian. The use of "Empire" has been used to include all such states, but recognition of the part that was played by all states would be appropriate and add to the information. Although the Greek element was small (a battalion?), it maintained Greek status as a belligerent and the Poles provided a highly effective and motivated division. Just my two penn'orth. ("Allied" is wholly accurate, just as it is in relation to Italy and Northern Europe.) Folks at 137 17:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

My 2 cents: In my references, "Allied" is commonly used when speaking of big-picture stuff like "Allied victory..." and "British", "American", "Russian" are used when describing particular Allied armies. The Allied army involved is almost universally called the "British Eighth Army", not the "British Commonwealth's Eighth Army". While it is valuable to mention the composition of the troops under British command, I think common usage should prevail here.--Toms2866 02:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I have 2 cents too: I hate seeing AIF forces referred to as British but I believe the army is referred to as the British 8th Army. It was comprised of commonwealth and british forces, but its named british. Thats my view anyhow.... But please can't we use the term Allied where appropriate? It was an allied offensive after all, not a british commonwealth offensive. The allied victory in the battle oif the coral sea isnt confusing for brits even though there were no british forces there, why should americans have trouble with it in this instance? aussietiger 15:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

It just comes about because (depending on context) British is shorthand for so much including inhabitants of the British Isles, UK citizens and in this case may mean British Empire (though by 1930s more the Commonwealth). British 8th Army is more a convention to avoid getting it mixed up with all the other 8th Armies. GraemeLeggett 15:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Can someone provide a reference of the numbers of Free French, Greek and Polish forces involved? I think we need some standard of how many troops have to be involved (in a ratio basis) for a nation to be listed. Oberiko 11:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Can't find exact numbers, but (E&OE): Greeks about a battalion; Free French - a division, I think; Poles, confusing - 2nd Carpathian Brigade in North Africa augmented by between 115,000 and 160,000 released from the USSR ("Anders' Army) in time for the Italian campaign. The Poles stayed with the 8th Army in North Africa and through Italy. I'll keep looking. Folks at 137 16:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've started a discussion at the Military History Wikiproject to try and reach a standard on this issue. Oberiko 17:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Was any consensus reached, anywhere? There's just been another change to this. Folks at 137 19:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The consensus was, in a nutshell, since WWII battles had many national forces lumped into groups, that we should use the groups if the nationalities is to big. ie, we'd say "8th Army" instead of "UK", "NZ", "AUS" etc.

I suppose we could apply the same thing here and say "8th Army victory", but that doesn't read very well. Oberiko 21:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Can we get rid of the references to "Commonwealth" forces then? This is an anachronism, "Empire" is better. British victory seems alright, although I tend to think that "Allied victory" is more in line with other WWII battle infoboxes. Then again, some American victories which used other nations' troops have been put down as "American victory", this is definitely something the military history project should try to standardise.Chrisfow 16:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of battle

Is there an order of battle page? MegasAllexandros 03:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation

Can we get some citation on the infobox figures? Oberiko 16:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photograph

Why does the only illustration have to be spoilt by saying "this was staged"? There must be many photos not in that category! A large proportion of those taken during WWI were the same, but are rarely acknowledged as such, and it doesn't improve anything by having it. Peter Shearan 09:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good thing. More information never hurts, this is an encyclopdia. Oberiko 10:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AN ITALIAN FRONT WITH GERMAN SUPPORT

North Africa wasn`t a "German" front but an Italian front with German support. In El Alamein fought 54,000 Italians with 279 tanks and 50,000 Germans with 211 tanks. The German troops did belong to two Italian Army-Corps: the 21. A.C. in the North and the 10. A.C. in the South. The name "Afrika-Korps" for germans and Italians is wrong. When the 8th British Army did attack, "Herr Rommel" was in Germany, in vacations. The Italian generals Nebbia and Navarrini had to face Montgomery`s attack! The defeat of El Alamein was only secondarily a German "defeat". First of all ita was an Italian defeat. Italy lost the war at El Alamein, Germany at Stalingrade, Japan in Guadalcanal.

Numbers don't tell the whole story, especially in this campaign. There is no doubt that defeat of the German element of the Axis forces in North Africa was the only thing that counted. The Italian army on its own was close to worthless, and so the battle *was* primarily a German defeat. This is not intended to disparage the Italian solders, who generally did their duty, but were hobbled by terrible leadership and an incompetent regime. But the fact is that from the time the German Africa Korps (DAK) entered the campaign until the end, destruction of the DAK was really the only worthwhile objective for the Allies. Likewise the command arrangements that placed Italians in higher command positions was more diplomacy than actual operational reality. To take an allied example, Alexander was "in command" of allied ground forces in Sicily, yet his influence on the battle was pretty close to zero. DMorpheus 18:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

EGYPT: AN ITALIAN FRONT, LIKE PALESTINE (1918) WAS A TURKISH FRONT.

Dear reader, you think only after a MILITARY point of view. But you have to think POLITICALLY, too. Palestine in 1918 is considered a Turkish front, though the Turkish armies were rather weak and the German Asien-Korps were strong, just like the Afrika-Korps in 1942. Nevertheless everybody considers Palestine a Turkish front because the aim of General Allenby was the defeat of Turkey. So, the aim of Montgomery was the defeat of Italy. He himself said this when he landed in the "toe" of Italy in September 1943. Indeed Roosevelt`s slogan "Germany first" was wrong. His slogan should be "Italy first" because he attacked Sicily in 1943 and the Normandy in 1944.The Italian generals Nebbia and Navarrini weren`t formal commanders but the commanders of the 21th and of 10th Army Corps. Were the Italian generals incompetent? Well, think on Clark in Monte Cassino, think on Lucas in Anzio. Competent generals? A rarity!

Is this a parody? Think Politically?! Political power grows from the barrel of a gun - especially in war. Show me a successful Italian campaign against the Allies. Greece? Just as well the Germans intervened. Ethiopia? Must be joking. North Africa? Well it wasn't the Italians that stopped the British advance. Malta? Three old biplanes saw off the Regia Aeronautica. The submarine war? Doenitz couldn't get rid of Italian subs quick enough - they couldn't even report sightings and the weather. The best Italian force was the Regia Marina and even then the political leaders messed up - no oil reserves, no air cover. Italians had to believe in their cause and junior partner in the Axis was not it. Defeat the Germans and you defeated the Italians. BTW, please sign your contributions. Folks at 137 22:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

THE ITALIAN ROLE IN WWII (answer)

Dear Mr. "Folks", I will answer by a list of facts only. -The Italian air attack to Malta (June 11, 1940) opened the hostilities against Great Britain and extended WWII to the Mediterranean Sea and to Africa. So Italy is important (if we want in a negative sense)just for this action. -The attack to Greece was an humiliation for Mussolini just like the Soviet attack to Finland was an humiliation for Stalin. The reason for the Italian failure was boorish racism: Greek were considered "an inferior race" and a few of Italian divisions were able to defeat Greece. Unfortunately for Italy the Greeks had many -and stronger (3 infantry regiments instead of 2)- divisions. Nevertheless the war against Italy bled Greece and when the Germans attacked (1941)the Greek Army were already exhausted. Also Hitler recognized this fact. -The defeat in El Alamein was first an Italian defeat because (Ciano-Ribbentrop Agreement of 1940) in case of a German-Italian victory in WWII, Egypt had to become an Italian protectorate. This is the reason because I say we should think politically, too. -Italian victories without the Germans? Menton and Lanslebourg (June 1940), Kassala, Kurmuk, Gallabat in Sudan (July 1940), Moyale (Kenya) (July 1940), British Somaliland (August 1940), Buna Oasis (Kenya) (September 1940, Sidi-el-Barrani (Egypt) (September 1940). In Russia (September 1941) the Italian divisions took 10,000 Soviet prisoners. -the Italian submarines sunk during the war 900,000 Tonn.(568,573 Tonn in the Atlantic and in the Indian Ocean). Among the victimes the Ocean Liner "Empress of Canada" in 1943. The Italians sunk 2 British battleships (later repaired) and sunk 6 cruisers (among them the heavy cruiser "Manchester" in 1942), 15 destroyers, 49 submarines. -In East Africa the lasted 17 months and saw about 60 battles. The battles of Keren, Amba Alagi, Kulquaber, and Gondar were very hard. Please respect -at least- the British Fallen. An Italian Guerrilla warfare lasted, after the formal end on November 27, 1940, until May / October 1943 (see internet "La guerriglia italiana in Africa Orientale"). About 7,000 scattered Italian soldiers fought this guerrilla hoping for a Japanese help or for an Italian-German help from Egypt. -The Royal Italian Air Force attacked Gibraltar 14 times. The Air Force of the RSI 1 time. This was "folks"!

Point remains: in North Africa, it was the DAK that had to be beaten. Evidence? Look at Operation Compass. Graziani's 250,000 strong 10th Army had failed against the 36,000 local British garrison and after 10 weeks the British had captured 130,000 Italians (losing 2000) and captured Cyrenaica. The rest of your points may be factual, but need context and this is not the forum - except to comment that there may have been 14 attacks on Gibraltar, but there was only one on Taranto. Impact not numbers. Folks at 137 09:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] INSTEAD OF "GERMAN DEFEAT", AT LEAST "GERMAN-ITALIAN" DEFEAT

At least the last sentence of this article should be changed: instead of "German defeat" and "end of the German expansion" let`s write "German-Italian defeat" and "end of the German-Italian expansion". Also the name "German Panzer Army Afrika" isn`t correct. In Italy this army is called "ACIT - Armata Corazzata Italo-Tedesca". Italians never fought for "German expansion"!

Indeed it was the other way around, one of the stated aims of the German Army in Africa was to aid the re-conquering of Italian Africa. At this time, the DAK was known as the German-Italian African Army or some-such. I will look it up, make sure of it, and change it. Chrisfow 16:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)