Talk:Scouting

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Archive
Archives
1. March 2004 – February 2006
2. March 2006 – October 2006


Contents

[edit] NPoV?

This article seems a bit PoV... For instance: "...whose aim is to develop young people physically, spiritually and mentally so that youth may take a constructive place in society." I suppose it should read "whose declared aim is".
"This is achieved through..." It should be "According to the movement, this is achieved through..." or simply "This should be achieved through..."
Velho 01:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to edit thusly. Rlevse 01:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I see the case for the second edit (and followed through - see what you think of it)... I'm not sure about the first one, though - seems a bit redundant to put in declared, because aren't all aims "declared"? Horus Kol 08:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexuality

Addition of the offical BSA poloicy on homosexuality with refrance to BSA website

Please sign your comments. Reverted, Scouting not BSA. John Reaves 07:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem about mention of the BSA policy on homosexuals is that for balance you should also add the policy of other scouting organisations. Many differ significantly from that of BSA. Then the whole article gets too large. It is a BSA problem. It is not a UK problem. It is not an Australian problem. --Bduke 12:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

  • And it isn't a Dutch problem nor a German problem, nor any other European or Asian country's as far as I can tell. It is only the USA that is taking this odd POV. Or is there another country which makes this an issue? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 18:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC).
  • It's not a South African problem Jediwannabe 10:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The other countries (I think) where it is not possible to be scout and gay are the counties where homosexuality is criminal. --Egel Reaction? 12:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brownie Scouts?

I admire the ambition to bring the Scouting article to a more generic form, but Brownie Scouts? Horus Kol 09:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the whole Section section is a mess. Trying to divide the age groups and tacking in each country doesn't work. For eample, Brownies in the GSUSA are in troops, not packs. It would be better if this were cut down and noted that each organization does it differently. It might also be better if all of the Jungle Book terms were moved to a different section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the hardest part here is the age ranges - they're all over the place in different organisations... Horus Kol 10:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The exact age ranges, the names of the units and sub-units are not important. I think, important are the existence of sub-units, the level of self-goverment/leadership/hierarchy, the importance of the tale (The Jungle Book / Friends of the Forest) and the activities. The things that are same on the world, but differ between the age groups. --Egel Reaction? 15:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I just about think that we could have a separate article such as The Jungle Book and Scouting. Each of the Jungle Book characters has a short blurb on Scouting, but I think it would work better as a whole. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The Jungle Book doesn't apply to Brownies (at least in the United Kingdom)... actually, looking through all of this, there is a lot things wrong with many of the sections in this article - Beaver Scouts do have a sub-unit of the colony - the lodge (as an example). This article is not really generic - it has been written by someone who has given an obvious bias to Scouting (as opposed to Guiding) in the US (as opposed to the rest of the world) - and then someone has tried to apply a veneer of generality to it. This is not a gripe, but an observation. I would be happy to help make this article generic - but I think we need to spend some time in a sandbox before fixing the article... If I make a start, would anyone else be happy to copyedit? Horus Kol 15:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. As I recall, there was a lot of BSA stuff in here at one time, so I believe you are correct in that observation. I don't believe the Girl Scouts/Guides use any of the Jungle Book mythos. In the US it has become rather diffused and syncretized with American Indian customs. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
HOrus--go for it. I agree the Cub and pre-Cub sections need work especially. I think the rest of the article is better, but could be tweaked too. I want to get this to FA, so the better we can make it before FAC submission, the better. Rlevse 20:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
There are Scouting/Guiding organisations with a separate "Girl Cub" (Welpinnen) program: Europascouts and Guides Belgium and maybe others. --Egel Reaction? 09:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry - I've been out on site for a couple of days, so not had much opportunity to get started... hopefully have something by the end of the week - Egel, that kind of information is great... I just hope that we can get it all together into something that is meaningful and relevant. Horus Kol 14:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually - having just read through the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Scouting#Scout.2FGuide_or_Boy_Scout.2FGirl_Scout_equality I have no idea on how to proceed with this now... Horus Kol 16:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry - I stared at it on Saturday, and come to the realisation that I couldn't see what to do with it... sorry guys... Horus Kol 09:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem, I took a shot at cleaning this up. I also listed "The Jungle Book in Scouting" as a requested article on our project page. I think we still need more refs for Scouting, so I'll work on that. We also need to fix the switching btwn Brit and American English.Rlevse 20:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Actually the section on age groups has lost all relevant content. It should at least mention the standard models developped during BPs lifetime for boys and girls with the original names, preferable in a table like this example - the central pedagogic aims for each age group should also be included:
Ages Scouting Guiding
7 to 10 Cub Scout Brownie Guide
11 to 17 Boy Scout Girl Guide or Girl Scout
18 to 25 Rover Scout Ranger Guide
  • In a second step (ans only if we don't reintroduce the deletd content) we need a detailed article Age Groups in Scouting and Guiding. This would be the right place to mention all the different structures that are now listed in this overview.
  • The section on adults is far to long compared to the section on youth members. Scouting is primarily for youth.
  • The different branches like Sea Scouts, Air Scouts, Extension Scouts should also be mentioned in this sections; actually they can only be found under history. --jergen 08:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
With the additions others have made since I did mine what I just did, the youth section is now longer than the adult one. I also added age ranges last night. I do not agree it's lost all relevant content. That's really a stretch. Assuming the table you made is the model and names BP originally came up with, I've added it, but I certainly wouldn't go beyond that as then we'd be back where we were. I have no problem with an age groups article and have added it to our Requested articles. Once it's created, we can make it a main link on this page. Your last item has been addressed by Horus Kol. Rlevse 11:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The section is much better now. Thanks to all contributors. --jergen 09:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Got the article done... got the references to the parallel programmes done... About the adult section in this article - how about a new article for Adults in Scouting? Horus Kol 09:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I support this idea but we should remember that "Adults in Scouting" is also a organisational program by WOSM aimed even at youth leaders... --jergen 10:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
An "Adults in Scouting" article would be fine with me, but how would it be different from Scout leader? Rlevse 10:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Not all adults in Scouting are uniformed leaders... there are the executive positions at all levels, skills instructors, training and development teams, Fellowships, etc... Horus Kol 11:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Ah yes. Rlevse 11:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit spree

Hi, all, I did some copy-editing to the Scouting article, to put it in such a shape that at least the peerreviewer script accepts it. However, that is merely for technicalities, such as spelling, referencing, word use, etc. It is now close to midnight here, and I'm off to bed. For next action, I would like to suggest that we specifically give the 'Age groups or sections' chapter some serious attention, as that is one of the core sections of the article. In each subsection there, I'd like to see more prose improvements. Tomorrow, I'll give it further attention myself. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Excellent work Wim. I noticed the section that starts "Ranger Guide" says nothing about the Guides. Does the person that added this know anything about it? Rlevse 22:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language

Hi, Randy, American English the standard? Long ago? You added it not even a month ago to those Rules and Standards. And I could find any discussion nor arguments to substantiate the proposal. And whichever language you choose, at least do it consistently throughout the article (I did). Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

OK, maybe it wasn't that long ago-;). I had a senior moment. There was discussion, but I don't recall where it was. A similar talk is going on at Religion in Scouting. Rlevse 21:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • That the religion article it written in US-English is fine with me, as that is again a topic mainly focusing on the US side of Scouting. There is no religion debate here, and B-P hasn't spent much time about it either. So for me (and B-P) that isn't an important topic. But Scouting is so international that I can't see the reason to but is any other language than B-P's. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Section Age groups and sections

Where did all its content go? I see the actual very short paragraph as really insufficient; it's nothing but a listing of some of the possible age groups. It's quite clear that Scouting was started for only one age group - but today there is more. As far as I know not one of all existing organizations centers only on the Scout/Guide age, no, quite contrary: Estimations by WOSM give 30% to 50% Cub Scouts.

What happened to Extension Scouting? Where is it mentioned? Or are we just suggesting that it was closed?

These changes result - in my eyes - in a massive loss of information. If we work further in this direction we should soon change the rating to B. --jergen 21:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW: I included "Ranger Guides", which is directed at the same age group as "Rover Scouts". But it's Guiding, so it can be removed in this (male) Scouting centered project. --jergen 21:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
See the Brownie Scouts thread above. The issues you mention are precisely what they're talking about---which boil down to too much detail and trying to cover every program and every age group in all the large countries, which is impossible in such an article. A balance needs to be found. There is no way this is a B article. This article should summarize and point to other articles, not bog down in detail, which is why Wim moved most of the breakaway section out. Rlevse 21:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
If there is no article on Extenstion Scouting and it's not the same as Explorers, Rovers, etc, my suggestion is to create it and link to it from here like those articles are. Rlevse 21:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Never herd about red links like Extension Scouting or Ranger Guide? They are allowed, they are useful, they indicate missing important content and it's no problem - even for featured articles - to have some in an article. Pls see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)#Form: When there is not yet an article about that subject, good links will make the creation of a correctly named article much easier for later writers. --jergen 08:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this section of the article is pretty much there - the information about all those sections/age groupings should be in their own relevant articles, but it is good to mention the programs/sections in this article like we have... I have added links to Air Scouts and Sea Scouts, the aforementioned Extension Scouting (and the UK version - Scoutlink). Horus Kol 09:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

While I think the section on ages is really good now, I will work on more refs over the next few days. If anyone who is knowledgeable can at least make stubs for the ones that are redlinks, I'd really appreciate it. Rlevse 11:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Group or District

I would think these would be capitalized only when they refer to a specific unit. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Capitalizing all those words (Scouts and Scouter included) is an Americanism. B-P never did that, so I'd prefer not to add the words group and district to the list I have already been made to accept. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

If I say "I saw a group of Scouts" or "There are Scouts in many districts of the city" it is small "g" or "d", but a Scout Group is talking about a specific organisational entity and I think that is capital "G" in general as well as when one talks about the "159th Sheffield Scout Group". I think the same applies to Scout Districts. They are specific. Well they are in some countries and I think it is those the references are to. --Bduke 22:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Upper casing of Scouting is not solely American, see this from the Brits: [1], specifically "Facts about adults in Scouting". Rlevse 22:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I have been a Scout and Scouter for many years now, in the UK... also, I have belonged to a Group and to groups... English is just odd like that. I apologise that we didn't come up with something more logical, but all these Romans and Saxons kept on invading us :P Horus Kol 09:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
A scout is someone sent to find things out (armies and football clubs have them), a Scout is a member of the worldwide organization founded by BP. A Group is an administrative unit of Scouting in the UK (and possibly elsewhere), a group is several of anything. British people can actually hear the capital letters! DuncanHill 14:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Right- Scout in this context is capitalized. We don't have groups in the BSA, but we do have districts. Unit designation such as pack, troop, team, crew or ship are lower case unless referring to a specific unit. Examples:

  • The troop is going camping.
  • Come camping this weekend with Troop 84. (We just get numbers in the US :-)

The same with districts, councils, areas and regions:

  • Please attend the district meeting.
  • Welcome to Valley District.
  • Please call the district executive.
  • Distict Executive Smith attended the meeting.

"National" is capitalized in the BSA because it always refers to the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America. References:

I'm not going to belabor the point if it is done differently elsewhere, I just want to understand. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, because of the use of the definite article, the District Executive is capitalised (at least in UK English). On the other hand, a district executive, or some district executives, are not. Similarly, specific Scout groups - like 89th Reading Scout Group or simply the Group are capitalised - Scout groups as a group of groups (um...) are not. Horus Kol 10:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World peace

Is world peace a goal of the Scouting movement? --Jagz 01:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It was one of B-P's visions that Scouting could help bring world peace. Too bad it hasn't happened. I'll find out if it's a WOSM goal too. Rlevse 01:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)...that didn't take long, see [2]. Rlevse 01:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it is a BSA goal though. If it is, it is only a goal in writing and not in practice. The exception being the indirect benefit that just attending a World Jamboree brings. I don't know if the discontinued World Brotherhood merit badge had any significantly different requirements than the Citizenship in the World merit badge along these lines. I know that The Scout Association in the UK has a World Faiths badge that Scouts can work towards (they learn about religious faiths other than their own) but the BSA has nothing like it for example. --Jagz 02:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Venturing has something new though.[3] --Jagz 06:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The Scout Assocation of the UK has, as one of the Scout Laws "A Scout is a member of the Worldwide Family of Scouting"... we also have International and Faith programmes which promote tolerance and understanding of other cultures. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Horus Kol (talk • contribs) 09:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Mission Statement

http://www.scout.org/en/content/download/3910/34727/file/UnderstandingMission_E.pdf (108k)

"The mission of Scouting is to contribute to the education of young people, through a value system based on the Scout Promise and Law, to help build a better world where people are self-fulfilled as individuals and play a constructive role in society.
This is achieved by
• involving them throughout their formative years in a non-formal educational process
• using a specific method that makes each individual the principal agent in his or her development as a selfreliant, supportive, responsible and committed person
• assisting them to establish a value system based upon spiritual, social and personal principles as expressed in the Promise and Law."

Shouldn't this be mentioned in the article at some point? Horus Kol 15:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Should go in the WOSM article, since it's the mission of this specific organization. --jergen 15:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
But all member organisations follow this mission, in one form or another, don't they? Horus Kol 16:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
That applies only when seein Guiding as an distinct movement; http://www.wagggs.org/en/about/scouting gives as mission: to enable girls and young women to develop their fullest potential as responsible citizens of the world. It is close to WOSM but not quite the same, note especially the gender orientation. --jergen 16:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spirituality

I noticed in the review talk someone made an objection to the "spiritual" aspect of Scouting - resulting in the removal of this aspect from the introduction. I argue that this should be back in there, as the objection seems to result from a confusion of religion with spirituality... The WOSM mission statement (above) clearly shows spiritual development to be on a par with personal and social development... and The Scout Association mission statement goes further:

"The aim of the Association is to promote the development of young people in achieving their full physical, intellectual, social and spiritual potential, as individuals, as responsible citizens and as members of their local, national and international communities.
The Method of achieving the Aim of the Association is by providing an enjoyable and attractive scheme of progressive training, based on the Scout Promise and Law, and guided by adult leadership."
http://www.scouts.org.uk/aboutus/mission.htm

I'm sure most people will be aware of the policies with the BSA and some other organisations if they have been involved in recent discussions with the controversies articles and also the Scouting in Religion article... Horus Kol 15:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Baden-Powell himself said,

   
“
 There is no Religious side to the Movement, the whole of it is based on religion, that is on the realisation and service of God.
   
”

[4]. Scouting is not a religious Movement, but religion (or more accurately spirituality) is a integral part of Scouting no matter what country you are in. Jediwannabe 06:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, which is why it should be back in there... Horus Kol 08:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New article?

I'm thinking about starting a new article that will be linked to this one. It will discuss Scouting problems, criticisms, and controversies by country. The format will be similar to the Scout Promise and Scout Law articles. People from different countries can add information pertinent to their country. Does this sound reasonable or is the United States the only country with problems, criticisms, or controversies? --Jagz 21:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I find that hard to believe, that the BSA and USA is the only org/country in the world with Scouting controversies, problems, criticisms of any kind. Rlevse 21:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Most other countries with a controversiaal Scouting organisation have other less controversiaal Scouting organisations too. In most countries you can be (allmost) atheist, agnostic, and/or homosexual and Scout. So in most countries there no reason to have much controversies, problems, criticisms. --Egel Reaction? 22:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
That means there are some organizations with at least some degree of controversey, though perhaps less well-known to others. Rlevse 23:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Some controversies: [5] (the links under World Scouting), but the most controversies are the other way around. --Egel Reaction? 00:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I suspect there isn't enough to make a good overarching article. A category might be more appropriate (with a subcategory for just BSA controversy related articles).--Erp 01:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The uniform is is one of the few aspects of Scouting that has some controversies, problems, criticisms in the Netherlands and probable the rest of Europe, because people easily associate uniforms with military and fascist youth movements.That is one of the reasons that the European Scouting uniforms are so colorfull. --Egel Reaction? 08:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

What about this for example? WOSM-Eurasian Region controversies --Jagz 00:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting... I have to admit that there have been problems/schisms in Scouting in the UK at times - the creation of the BP Scouts was a reaction to the 1960s review... other times, its down to local interest groups setting up a Scout Group but then setting their own agenda against Scouting POR. But these are mostly low-scale, local issues - not because of major policy issues like those in the BSA or the Eurasian articles.. Horus Kol 09:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See Also section

I just have a few issues with the see also section, since this is a generic international Scouting article, should there really be links to Eagle Scout (BSA and Philippines), Queen's Scout, Philmont Scout Ranch etc.

List of notable Scouts, Oldest Scout groups, Religion in Scouting, and Scout Prayer are fine. Maybe we should also also add Scout Promise, Scout Law, WOSM, WAGGGS (as well as the other world wide Scout organisations). Basically keep the See Also section only for international pages (I seem to recall that this was decided upon a while ago). Since this article is going for FA I didn't want to change this with out a consensus Jediwannabe 12:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I see that there is a International Scouting template at the bottom of the article, so links to international organisations aren't needed. Jediwannabe 12:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Good point, I just took out the Eagles, Queen, and Philmont. Promise and Law are already linked so don't need to be in See Also. Let's keep it international. Do we have a "Highest ranks" article? I think that'd be okay in See also.Rlevse 12:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a List of highest awards in Scouting which is in desperate need of a rearrangement - I was thinking along the lines of the table at Age Groups in Scouting and Guiding, which I was going to do at the weekend. Horus Kol 13:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I thought we had such an article, I'll add it to see also right now.Rlevse 13:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll work on it tomorrow Jediwannabe 13:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at User:Jediwannabe/highest scout awards, let me know what you think Jediwannabe 05:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I like that. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 08:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I like it too, but better swap Country and Organisation, because it is better to have the Countries in alphabetical order. --Egel Reaction? 08:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks good - as for sorting order... i have used the organisation name at Age Groups in Scouting and Guiding... if we decided to use a different sort order for User:Jediwannabe/highest scout awards, then can we make sure that the other article is brought in line... also, could we have some images of the awards where possible - add a bit of colour to the list? Horus Kol 09:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks good, but I also think countries should be on the left in alpha order.Rlevse 10:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I also think that it should be alpha order for countries. I'll add images of the awards to the table now. Jediwannabe 11:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've added images to User:Jediwannabe/highest scout awards, not sure exactly where the images should go, but I think it looks good where it is now. Jediwannabe 11:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks good Jedi - good work Horus Kol 11:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Would you mind if I moved it over (or do you want to) - I think you have everyone in the table except Scouts Australia now... Horus Kol 13:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I take it you are moving this to List of highest awards in Scouting? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Will be moving it shortly Jediwannabe 06:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, moved. Jediwannabe 06:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wood badge

Would someone who knows about the Wood Badge training take a look at the reference to it in this article? The implication is that this is common to all types and branches of Scouting and I don't think that's true. Thanks. Kingbird 16:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Wood Badge seems to be pretty universal to Scouting - is there an equivalent in Guiding (or some Scouting organisations) that could be mentioned in the Scouting and Wood Badge articles? Horus Kol 16:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I know that Wood Badge exists in, literally, dozens of countries. I also know that in many of these countries Wood Badge is used in all levels of the boys side of the program--Cub, Scout, Explorer, etc. What I don't know about is if it's used on the girls side of the program. Does anyone know about WB and the girl side?Rlevse 16:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I called a Girl Scout person I know--she's also in BSA. She said GSUSA does not use WB. I don't know about other countries.Rlevse 17:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know there is no common equivalent in Guiding; in most SAGNOs (Scouting And Guiding National Organizations) girls/women participate in the Woodbadge training, even if the association has split WOSM and WAGGGS membership.
Finland [6], Norway [7] and Sweden (see sv:Treklöver-Gilwellutbildning) have the Kolmiapila-Gilwell/Trekløver-Gilwell/Treklöver-Gilwell (Trefoil Gilwell) training as an "coeducational" equivalent of the WOSM-only Woodbadge training. The Swedish "fjäll" (mountains) course in autumn 2007 sounds really interesting [8]. --jergen 20:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like we should mention it's mostly a boys side thing with some female orgs using it with some female orgs having equivalents. In the BSA, there is an equivalent called Powder Horn just for the Venturing program.Rlevse 20:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Powder Horn is not Wood Badge for Venturing. Wood Badge is a leadership course for all leaders and Power Horn is a resource course for Venturing, Boy Scouting and Varsity Scouting. Sea Badge on the other hand is the Sea Scouting equivalent to Wood Badge (they just have to do their own thing :-) --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Many would and have said Powder Horn is the equiv of WB and SB-;) Yes, I know Venture leaders go to WB. Rlevse 22:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
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