Talk:Scouting/Archive 2

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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Archive 2
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Created November 20, 2006

Contents

Troop Positions

In most troops there are more than just those four positions for boys, in the BSA there are six patrol positions and atleast eight troop positions. There are also four different adult positions, Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop Committee Chair, and Troop Comittee Member. 168.254.226.175 15:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Hierarchy cleanup

I've tagged the Hierarchy section for a cleanup. See Troop Positions and levels on this page for previous discussion about this. Zaian 21:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

User:155.198.94.155 has changed this section extensively; I've left the {{cleanup-section}} tag until the section has been reviewed on this discussion page. I'm not meaning to reflect negatively on the new contributions by this. However I have some reservations about the new content as I think it is too UK-centric for a worldwide page. I'm hoping others will join the discussion on this topic. Zaian 12:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Let's just get down and do it, making it more international. I'll look at it later today. Let's do the merge from the section below also. Nobody has said it should not happen. --Bduke 20:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge of Section (Scouting)

It is suggested that Section (Scouting) be merged to here. It is an international article although with the flavour of UK Scouting. The UK article Scouting sections has been merged into the Scout Association article. The merge needs to emphasis the general international nature of this article, but it seems a good idea. Anybody object? --Bduke 05:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Having a quick look at the two articles, and the information in Section(Scouting) should be under the Hierarcy section in the main article - also, the information in Hierarchy seems to be too specific to UK Scouting... Horus Kol 09:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I have completed this task. The Hierarcy section is now Sections in Scouting. Section (Scouting) has been merged and redirected here. The whole is now more international but it probably needs a few other editors to look at it in detail. --Bduke 08:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Oldest Scout Group

I think we need a separate article on Oldest Scout Groups. It's often a heated debate that shouldn't take place on the main Scouting page. With the centenary of Scouting coming up, this topic is going to pick up popularity. Zaian 20:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I've created a new page for Oldest Scout Groups and moved two recent claimants to this title (1st Glasgow and India's oldest group) to that page. Zaian 16:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Images and logo

  • Surely there's a better picture illustrating Scouting than two non-Scouts at the memorial on Brownsea Island? A good photo for this article would probably be one with boys and girls of different nationalities, in Scout uniform, e.g. taken at a World Jamboree.
  • Should the World Membership Badge be moved to appear at the top of the page? It is a well-known symbol representing the vast majority of Scouts, apart from the breakaway groups, but this could be clarified in the text. If this is felt to exclude the Girl Guides and Girl Scouts, both WOSM and WAGGGS logos could be displayed.

-- Zaian 22:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I changed the images and added some information on the WAGGGS trefoil. --jergen 08:00, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Bravo to both of youth, I never liked the stone photo with the two kids either.Rlevse 12:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The new pic is a big improvement, and exactly what I suggested :) However the quality is not great, it's not very recent, and it would be better to show Scouts rather than young adults. So let's keep a look out for (even) better candidate images. PS isn't it time to archive some of this talk page? Zaian 13:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it's time to archive a lot of talk pages. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC) done
What you call young adults is an important part of Scouing in many countries. The World Scout Moot is open to all WOSM members between 18 and 28. --jergen 15:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I know, I attended the Moot in 1996 when this photo was taken. Sadly I'm not in the photo :) I still say that a photo of younger members would be more representative. Zaian 15:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


Totalitarian and political youth organizations

Why is this section in the article, maybe it should become its own stub, i have spent a fair amount of time disassociation Boyscouts with the hitler youth and this section just seems to reaffirm an inferoneous connection thank you Ishmaelblues

If you read this section closely, it explains what movements are and are not considered part of the Scouting movement and how certain governments treated Scouting. Rlevse 13:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Not considered PART OF SCOUTING? so why include it in an article labeled scouting!

So that people who are confused will understand why it's not considered Scouting. Think about it. Please sign your postings. Rlevse 22:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I am a former scoutmaster and still work with the San Gabriel Valley Council. I am not put off by this section on Totalitarian groups and I find the section pointed enough to indicate that these youth movements which are banded together in uniforms are not considered part of the scouting movement, yet this part lets the general readership get an understanding of these non-scout groups. If I was unsuspecting, I could possibly bundle the Hitlerian organizations with scouting. This sets the record straight without pushing the subject too far into its own discussion. Additionally: I happened on this article because I just finished the article on Mount Baden-Powell. I was taken back by the section which discussed the sexual references to Baden-Powell, but again the section did a fine job of rounding out the issue since it seems to have been one once. I did once have a problem with an assistant scoutmaster who turned out to be a pedafile. It's an issue! Magi Media 14:12, 9 April 2006 (UTC)Magi Media
Well said. Rlevse 19:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

There seems to beenough info on these other youth organizations that we could take it out of scouting and make it into it's own article, and really eaxpand on it, because it really is a huge field. - Ishmaelblues

This section is a mere 3 short paragraphs, quite a bit would have to be added for a full article. If you are knowledgeable enough, I suggest creating a separate article, but not move this section until we get a chance to see it. Rlevse 19:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The article should at least mention paramilitarism and that Scouting began with, and still carries over many rituals and mindedness, of paramilitarism. I'm sure many scouts see the connection with paramilitary organizations as both a loaded term and negative publicity, but I would also wager that scouting has enough integrity to accept and acknowledge its heritage if only to have the awareness required not to stray into full-fledged militarism. 71.162.255.58 23:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The miltary roots are clearly discussed under origins.Rlevse 23:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Maybe under Uniforms and distinctive insignia, a little paragraph about the military and non-milittary roots of the uniform and the insignia. --Egel Reaction? 08:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Scouting in Ireland

This section on Scouting in Ireland added today by User:Jorgenpfhartogs should not be on the main Scouting page - national details should be on a national page. I've asked the author to move it to a national page. Zaian 15:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Ditto, I cut it and suggested an article under Category:Scouting in Ireland. Rlevse 16:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Packs and Sixs

According to Interamerican Region (OSI) Method and Programming Manual, Six are not mandatory within Cub packs. It could be permanent or formed according the circumstances and specifics needs. According my experience as cub scout leader (and cub scout too) at list in Chilean cub packs it is more important the sense of identification with the pack (the cub scout is member of the pack instead of any six) in contrast of the identification with patrol for the scout section (the scout is member of a patrol within a troop). Opinions? How does the things work in the US, Europe, Asia, Africa? baloo_rch 02:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Freemasonry

Whoa, just read this article thoroughly; the editors really need to do their homework to have entirely overlooked Freemasonry. The entire concept of the scouts is based (loosely in some regards) on the tenets and many rituals (massively metaphorically changed and dumbed down) on Freemasonry. I'm disturbed to see such an integral part of the Scouts overlooked! Jachin 16:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Any reliable sources on this? --jergen 17:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Merger of sections on Early History, Conceptual Influences, and Relationship to Military Scouting

It is suggested that these 3 sections be merged. There is a good deal of similarity between these areas and tightening would help. Below I have a first stab at it. Anybody object or have other ideas? --User:Ctatkinson 05:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Many elements of traditional Scouting have their origins in Baden-Powell's own personal education and military training, and in particular his military experiences in late- 19th century Southern Africa fighting along side the Chief of Scouts, Major Frederick Russell Burnham, DSO. Military scouts such as Burnham were trained in ground and cover, movement from cover to cover, map reading, rifle marksmanship, observation, and accurately reporting the results of their observations (Burnham, an American, learned scouting as an Indian tracker in the American Old West). These scouts would act alone or in small groups to perform reconnaissance beyond lines to determine the location and operational conduct of the enemy. A scout had to be a good shot - a good practical shot, and an excellent hunter. Scouts would also act as assassins when the occasion demanded, but this was not the primary definition. In one notable example of this, Burnham undertook the assassination of the Matabele enemy leader Mlimbo, which turned out to be a remarkable success for the British campaign in Rhodesia. Thus, the military scouts fighting in Southern Africa were frontiersmen, but only coincidently.

Baden-Powell learned much about military scouting from his close friend Burnham. But even before going to Africa, Baden-Powell was a brilliant outdoorsman, a distinguished cavalry officer, and reportedly the finest pig sticker in India (To kill a sprinting wild boar with one lance thrust from the back of a galloping horse is a notable achievement for any scout and for quite a while Baden-Powell had the high score of consecutive one-thrust pig kills throughout the British Empire). Baden-Powell's original military training book, Aids To Scouting, was written because he saw the need for improved training of British military enlisted scouts, particularly in the areas of initiative, self-reliance and observation skills. This book envisioned scouts first and foremost as warriors whose business it was to face their enemies with both valor and good cheer and as social workers only afterward. The book's popularity with young boys surprised him. So when he adapted the book for youth in Scouting For Boys, it was natural the movement took up the names Scouting and Boy Scouts.

Scouting began to spread throughout Great Britain and Ireland soon after the publication of Scouting For Boys. The Boy Scout movement swiftly established itself throughout the British Empire. The first recognized overseas unit was chartered in Gibraltar in 1908, followed quickly by Malta. Canada became the first overseas Dominion with a sanctioned Boy Scout program, followed by Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Chile was the first country outside of the British Dominions to have a recognized scouting program. The first Scout rally was held at the Crystal Palace, London, in 1910. It attracted 10,000 boys, as well as a number of girls, who turned out for this exhibition of scouting. By 1910 India, Singapore, Sweden, Denmark, France, Russia, Finland, Germany, Norway, Mexico, Argentina, Greece and the United States had Boy Scouts. The members of a small number of Scout groups have the right to wear a green scarf/neckerchief in recognition of their membership of those groups founded in 1908.

Local influences have also been a strong part of the Movement. By adopting and modifying local ideologies the Scouting Movement has been able to find acceptance in a wide variety of societies. In America, for example, Scouting uses images drawn from the U.S. frontier experience. This includes not only its selection of animal badges for Cub Scouts, but the underlying assumption that American Indians are more closely connected with nature and therefore have special wilderness survival skills which can be used as part of the training program. British Scouting, by contrast, makes use of imagery drawn from the Indian subcontinent, because that region was a significant focus in the early years of the Scouting Movement. Baden-Powell's personal experiences in India led him to adopt Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book as a major influence for the Cub Scouts — for example, the name used for the Cub Scout leader, Akela (whose name was also appropriated for the Webelos), is that of the leader of the wolf pack in the book.

The Boy Scouts were and remain an ingenious organization but they have unquestionably departed in concept from what they were set out to be. But it has to be remembered that the ideas that Baden-Powell promoted were revolutionary in education in his time so it is natural they would evolve. He was unique, a retired army general at 55 years of age, able to inspire and enthuse thousands of young people, from all parts of society, to get involved in activities most of them had never contemplated. The only comparable organization (in the English-speaking world), the Boys' Brigade, has never been able to match the development of the international Scouting movement.

I would support a rewrite, but I think there is too much about Burnham in the version above, and rather too much opinion in the section on military Scouting (which is a recent addition by a single author). Terms like "unquestionably" and "only coincidentally" don't seem right. Zaian 13:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Poor prose

"Boy Scouts were and remain an ingenious organization?" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.192.134 (talk • contribs).

scouting wiki's

hey, does anybody know if there is a scouting wiki out there?

There are some in german - the largest is http://www.scout-o-wiki.de --jergen 07:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
if i set one up for the BSA that would include stuff on each council, lodge, area, rank, merit badge, etc. would anyone like to contribute? Bud0011 02:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

--Egel Reaction? 12:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

i have started one at here. it will be diffrent from the scouting portal, as it will be scouting-specific instead of general purpose. Please see if you can contribute, and if so, contribute what ever you can! Possible topics?
  • How to keep older boys interested?
  • How to keep contacts with packs and Lodges?
  • Common Board of Review questions and explainations
  • Possible ways to demonstrate the scout oath, law, motto and slogan
  • Resources to merit badges (including meritbadge.com)
  • Explain the purpose of a venture crew, the Order of the Arrow, varsity team, etc.
  • Information on a council or district
  • Proper commitee and patrol leader council functions
  • Explainations of the positions
  • Dutch oven recipes
  • Etc. Bud0011 05:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Alright, maybe that wiki won't do what i needed. Here is the new one, that even allows uploading the images! Bud0011 18:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Relationship to Military Scouting

I can't figure out what this is about. Per the title (which should be "Relationship to military scouting") it purports to relate the Scouting movement to military scouting. Instead, it reads like a thumbnail of military scouts in Africa. I believe this really has no relationship to Scouting except as part of BPs background. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I retitled it and did some minor work to it. Rlevse 22:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The title isn't the main issue. Regarding "they have departed in concept from what they were set out to be": I see nothing in this section that was supposed to ever be a part of Scouting. BP specifically removed military drill and training from the Scouting program. Scouts were never trained in boar-sticking or assasination. The military origins are well covered in the Origins section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Then perhaps we should remove it or merge it into the origins section. Rlevse 01:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I see you removed it. That's in line with my thoughts, just wanted to put the case out. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
That's good, now there's a record of why. Rlevse 10:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

AndyZ peer reviewer output

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.

  • Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.
  • Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
  • Per WP:MOS, avoid using words/phrases that indicate time periods relative to the current day. For example, recently might be terms that should be replaced with specific dates/times.
  • There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City. (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
  • Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.
  • Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:BTW, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006, but do not link January 2006.
  • Per WP:MOS#Headings, headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.
  • Please alphabetize the interlanguage links.
  • Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) maybe too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per WP:SS.
  • Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
    • While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 23 additive terms, a bit too much.
    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
    • Temporal terms like “over the years”, “currently”, “now”, and “from time to time” often are too vague to be useful, but occasionally may be helpful. “I am now using a semi-bot to generate your peer review.”
  • As is done in WP:FOOTNOTE, for footnotes, the footnote should be located right after the punctuation mark, such that there is no space inbetween. For example, change blah blah [2]. to blah blah.[2]
  • Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions (and the javascript checklist; see the last paragraph in the lead) for further ideas. Thanks, Andy t 00:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I made a run through this. Rlevse 00:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

After a serious try to put some more compliance into the article, I'm still in the sincere impression that this article is not there yet. Issues that are blocking a succesful GA nomination are, in my humble opinion:

  • Is Scouting a formal organization or a movement? This is dubious already in the lead text and also throughout the article. Personally I'd say the Scouting article should be about the movement and not the organization of it.
  • There should definitely be more about what one actually does in Scouting, such as camping (not even mentioned in the article!), woodcrafts and stuff.
  • The scout shop section is out of place in an encyclopedic article
  • The breakaway/nonaligned section is much overweight in a Scouting article.

These issues are rather wide, I know, and much beyond some ccompliancy recommendations from the automated script. Yet, I recommend they be taken care of for a Good Article. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC).

Sometimes I can't see the forest because of the trees. Good points. I reworked the lead so that it addresses your 1st and 2nd points more. As for the shop, yea probably, but I can live with it in. As for breakaway, maybe, but I think it's historically and factually important to keep it all in to reduce confusion about what we are and are not. Rlevse 21:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Wim wrote: There should definitely be more about what one actually does in Scouting - I support him on this. The article lacks any content on the Scout method which is basic for both WOSM and WAGGGS members as well as for break-away traditional Scouts. Only Law and Promise are mentioned but even there no background informations are given.
The article describes Scouting as an educational movement but doesn't offer informations on its pedagogigs. If we want to reach GA there should be something really informative in this field. --jergen 10:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
As this should be one of our best articles, by all means add the parts you are concerned with. Rlevse 20:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Did more work on all this, especially Scout method....thoughts? Rlevse 17:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I always thought you had it in you: this are indeed improvements. The one point I'd think fairly important and yet relatively easy to solve would be consistency of terminology: Either call it Scouting or Scout movement or Scouting movement. And use that for all appearances in the article (may need some small copy-edits in a few paragraphs). Actually I would recommend Scouting movement, but then I'm no editor at this time. And it might induce an article move... Wim van Dorst (Talk) 19:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC).
Once I started, it kind of hit me what you were looking for. I'd rather leave it Scouting as far more people are familiar with that, I feel, than the other terms. I'll put a "also" in the lead. Rlevse 19:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

PS: Scout Movement already redirects here and changing it back would probably mess up lots of links. Rlevse 19:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

  • This is a step forward, and in my humble opinion just enough for GA. Jergen, what do you think? And I strongly recommend a long PR time for further improvement. Not real soon now, as I'm busy with some other article. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC).


Regarding movement: Per the West biography, Edgar Robinson is probably the first American to refer to Scouting as a movement. In this context, a movement is dynamic and goal-oriented where an organization is static. You would participate in a movement, not belong to an organization. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

discrimination?

why isn't the homosexuality/atheist controversy covered here?

Justforasecond 05:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You are most likely referring to BSA controversey, and in the BSA article there is a section on it as well as subarticle link to the Boy Scouts of America membership controversies article. This Scouting article that you left this message on is an international article, not just a BSA article. Rlevse 10:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Recommendations for A-Class

To give the editors something to grind on, here are a few recommendations (subjectively, I agree) for further improvements.

  • The article should be build up around topics (sections?) such as:
    • History: part of it is in the Origins section, but it should follow the time line of B-P: military, Afrika, Aids to Scouting, Seton's book, Brownsea camp, Scouting for Boys.
    • Growth of the movement: Girl guides and his sister, other type of scouts, Cubs and Kipling, leader training and woodbadges, internationalization and Olave.
    • What Scouts do: outdoor, camping and hiking, sports, fun, Jamborees, etc, to show that Scouting is a pleasure to be with, a hobby. The section is merely to be supported by Scout method (which article needs a turn around as well: it first mentioned the method and then what it is all about), but is not the main.
    • Uniform, insignia, oath, and other rituals
    • Data about formal organizations WOSM and WAGGGS size and internationalization (I like the table)
    • Co-education and various controversies in Scouting (difficult section for NPOV)
    • See also/Ref/Links.
  • Move all those military breakaway and nonaligned organizations out, either to the trashbin or a separate article.
  • Include the sections info into the second section I mentioned.
  • Importantly, we should decide whether this article is about a Boy Scout (which gets redirected here), viz. a boy and a person, or about the movement, viz. an organization, etc. Both topics warrant separate articles in my opinion. Having both items in here clutters it.
  • And there are probably some left-over recommendations from the peerreviewer script.

So, Randy, that'll keep you busy for some time, so that I can work on the BP Houses. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC).

Thanks, yep. This article definitely needs to be about the movement vice a Scout. I do not agree with rm'ing the non-aligned, breakaway part, those are still part of the movement.Rlevse 01:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

While driving in the car (hothothot) today, I thought vague thoughts about WP, and considered how to deal with improving this article. And then I had the following idea. A split:

  • Scouting movement: the core of this article, with all the history, internationalization, adult leadership, co-ed, and world organizations and (as you insist) some words about deviation thereof.
  • Scout or Boy Scout: the other half of the article, enlarged, about the person, uniform, insignia, ranking (up to the level of Crown Scout or similar), the various sections sea/air scouts, and a reference to the female varieties (which are mainly in Girl Guides.

Doing a split makes is much easier to get focus and direction in the article, which currently —as pointed out before— balances on two lines of thought. Just a thought. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC).

Plan of attack

While starting on this a moment ago, it dawned on me that there is no generic overview article on the Boy Scout (age 11-18 group) program at the international level (which is why I linked in the BSA version as the main one for now); but the other programs do have such an article. I think this is because of the history of this Scouting article. My plan is to add in all this stuff, organize it, then look it over and make a generic overview article on the Boy Scout level of the movement, using pretty much the elements Wim suggested for a split. Rlevse 16:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

  • The lack of a Boy Scout article of its own is exactly my point. I'm glad you see it now too. Fortunately, there's plenty of stuff in this article here to work with. It looks like you're on a good path now, so go for it. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 19:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC).
    • That's also a side benefit of my having just rated the vast majority of the project articles myself-;) Rlevse 20:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Changes to Co-educational Scouting

Two annotations to my changes:

  • WAGGGS defines itself as a movement of "girls and women", but it admits co-educational organizations as members - even if they don't have WOSM membership for their male members. Some European examples are: Slovenia, Spain, Greece.
  • There is also at least one organization that has both WOSM- and WAGGGS-membership for all members (male and female): Verband Christlicher Pfadfinderinnen und Pfadfinder in Germany. Thus, one more badge on my uniform. --jergen 08:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Newer Peer ReviewScouting

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.

  • Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[1]
  • Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.[2]
  • Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:BTW, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006, but do not link January 2006.[3]
  • Per WP:MOS#Headings, headings generally do not start with the word "The". For example, ==The Biography== would be changed to ==Biography==.
  • Per WP:MOS#Headings, headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.
  • Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) maybe too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per WP:SS.[4]
  • Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
    • While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 21 additive terms, a bit too much.
    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
    • Temporal terms like “over the years”, “currently”, “now”, and “from time to time” often are too vague to be useful, but occasionally may be helpful. “I am now using a semi-bot to generate your peer review.”
  • Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a. [5]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Rlevse 21:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Membership table

When was this data retrieved from the said ref? It isn't up todate (mostly because I edited the source table regarding The Scout Association of Hong Kong I'm working on. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC).

Not sure. The most accurate figures are probably at this WOSM site (dated Sept. 2005) but those figures do not agree with these. I will note that the US figures on this page include those who sign up for the Learning for Life program (which in the US is not considered part of the Scout program) and the Indonesian figures also include some in programs who do not make a scout like promise. (see World Scout Membership 1990-2000). In addition these are WOSM figures and may not include WAGGGS members even though they belong to the same National organization. The table should cite a source and date. --Erp 01:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I made an update according to http://www.scout.org/satw/countries.shtml. All these numbers are only approximative (Note the rising numbers for the US, Canada, France and the UK; AFAIK all these are complainig about mebership decline). Also the WOSM-website (as well as WAGGGS' own) isn't really reliable: Some NSO give quite different numbers on their own websites (eg Austria: WOSM 13,785 + WAGGGS 10,508; website 85,000 [1]; the same for Hong Kong: 74,147 vs. 100,233). I propose we should use only [2] as a source for consistency. If necessary we may add notes for details, differing numbers or other problems. --jergen 07:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the updating, but this significant rise in numbers is very surprising. Is the WOSM table seriously reliable enough to be presented here. I don't question its authority, but I do question its validity. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 08:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC).
Well, the WOSM table is the only consistent source (and for quite a number of associations the only) but I wouldn't describe it as reliable. If you add the numbers up there are only 26 million Scouts while WOSM's mainpage speaks of 28 million members.
There are some points that may lead to this surprising rise of membership:
  • For most industrialized countries the fee is really low (max. CHF 1.147), so it wouldn't be quite a problem to pay for non-existant members [3], while poorer associations may give lower numbers according to this source .
  • There is also an upper limit for fees: No NSO has to pay for more than 1 million members. (eg the BSA with a rise of 1.9 million members does pay the same as before.)
  • Seconding this is the demand for rising (or stable) membership (alternatively a review of both program and structures should take place) formulated by the World Scout Bureau in its proposal on the "Governance of WOSM" [4]
Thus the rise in membership doesn't really affect the finances of the "richer" associations but avoids the review of program and structures. --jergen 09:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Given this unreliability, would a drastic change of data presentation in the Scouting article be called for, e.g., make a new table, combining both WOSM and WAGGGS numbers into a table presenting more realistic values for the top 15? Then the ListOfWOSM page with the WOSM table is then presenting authoritative numbers (albeit unreliable), and Scoutign article is present realistic overall numbers, albeit in less detail (e.g., all numbers rounded to 100k or even 1000k). Wim van Dorst (Talk) 09:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC).
This is a typical European viewpoint but I'd like to second it ;-). Typical European since it sees Scouting and Guiding as the two faces of a coin. But we should wait for some comments from the US...
Also this poses some problems:
  • The numbers for WAGGGS are as reliable as those for WOSM and date mostly from 2003.
  • Should we combine countries with split organizations into one entry? (eg BSA + GSUSA = USA)
  • There are some associations where all Scouts and Guides are members of both WAGGGS and WOSM, so we can't just add up the numbers (eg one of Germany's associations, France?).
  • I don't think we should reduce details to 1000k; it may even be difficult with 100k.
I'll prepare a proposal in my user namespace at User:Jergen/workshop/Table Scouting around the World. --10:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The same should apply to List of World Organization of the Scout Movement members and to List of World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts members. --jergen 07:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
As for what source to use for numbers, I don't care as long as it's a reputable source, WOSM, WAGGGS, whatever. I do agree that for countries like the US, you need to count both BSA and GSUSA and for Germany, not to count them twice. This leaves the question of what to do with organizations not so affiated, like the traditional scouting movement....? Rlevse 11:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Traditional Scouting as well as other unaffiliated organizations don't have a real impact in most countries. Membership of WFIS is about 30,000 and of UIGSE about 70,000, so traditional Scouting may have 200,000 to 300,000 members worldwide. A bigger problem are the Scout-like organizations (ie Royal Rangers, Pathfinders). RR has about 250,000 members and Pathfinders about 2.6 million. Should we include them?
I'll include traditional Scouting for Germany (+ 90,000), France (+ 40,000) and Italy (+ 30,000; all estimated) in my proposal. Please feel free to comment. --jergen 13:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Jergen, that is an excellent table! Recommended for immediate inclusion into the Scouting article, with appropriate refs, of course. Top 20 or just Top 15? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC).

I started with to 15 and came upon a number of countries with the same membership (before including non-aligned Scouts and Guides). So I expanded the table to top 20 to avoid choosing between countries the same size...
I'd like to insert the top 20 table: It's less Asia centred and shows better the worldwide movement. --jergen 08:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Added som refs --jergen 09:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

A-Class? Ok, but hold for FAC some weeks

Well done, Randy: a heck of an improvement. The other things I know your working on such as Boy Scouts and similar, are also very good ideas. May I recommend that you hold on for FAC for this article as I really would like to participate in ironing out all those (minor?) details, e.g., the peerreviewer script's non-compliance issues, and nice details about the early history (I've learned a bit on the Scouting for Boys article research I'm doing. I actually expect to receive a (reprinted) copy of the real first six publications soon (next few weeks, when I'm out probably). And these information needs to be corrected in this Scouting article too, of course. And it may surprise you that the article needs some de-americanization too?Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC).

Sure.Rlevse 10:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

USA number inflated?

Jergen et al, the BSA number (6.2 million) is indeed as reported on the WOSM list, but on the BSA page and their links they only mention a (still large) 3 million members. Even added 1.5 million scout leaders, I'd be at 4.5 million male members. With 3.7 million girl guides (incl leaders), the USA number should then be at 8.2 million, not over 10 million. Who explains the difference? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC).

Perhaps BSA includes in its reports to WOSM the participants of Learning for Life? They are not included in the statistics at the BSA page, since this isn't a real Scouting program.
As written above - these numbers aren't very reliable. One million members more or less doesn't affect the fee paid to WOSM, but a stable or growing organization avoids the otherwise necessary review of programm and structures. --jergen 21:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The BSA figures do include Learning for Life. The table may need footnotes for individual countries to explain how the figures were calculated in each case. Also the BSA figures do include some women and girls (girls can join Venturers). The GSUSA figures include male leaders. I don't think we want to distinguish between male/female but rather WOSM/WAGGGS affiliate membership.--Erp 00:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The table has explanatory footnotes where necessary. The rest uf the numbers are just sums of the numbers given by WOSM and WAGGGS (see note 14). And it's not of concern if there are girls included in the BSA or so on... A distinguition in WOSM membership, WAGGGS and non-aligned would make the table far to complex to understand - its purpose is to show how many Scouts/Guides can be found in a country and not do describe the Scout movement in a country in every single detail. --jergen
Agreed we shouldn't separate by sex; I wasn't clear. I was referring back to Wimvandorst's comment which included 'male' in it. Do we have a comment that membership includes both adults and youth? Also we may want to a footnote on the USA number that this does include Learning for Life membership because I guarantee someone is going to notice otherwise. --Erp 21:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Decline

There is a definete decline in the number of scout groupd (cubs/scouts, all of them). Many groups are closing in the UK

not sure when this comment was written, or who wrote it - but Scouting is flourishing in most parts of the world. There is also a reversal in decline in some parts of the UK now, especially in the Beaver and Cub sections. Horus Kol 08:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Scout Den

Where practicable weekly section meetings are held in local centres known as scout dens. These can be owned and operated by local scou groups, lent by local community organisations or religious sponsors, parish/community or sports halls. Often scout groups obtain land/materials/labour at favourable costs due to their charitable status.good squishee 15:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

In the UK, the meeting place is usually called a 'Scout Hut', not a den. DuncanHill 00:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
In South Africa the meeting place is usually called a 'Scout Hall' Jediwannabe 06:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


co-education

I was thinking that merging the co-ed bit to prior the table and current situation as it explains how the current situation came about. Also how appropriate is the word 'co-educational' in this situation? --Erp 15:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I think 'mixed' would be more common usage in the UK. DuncanHill 15:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
You may want to add wording or change wording prior to the table but I think there are enough details on co-ed/mixed Scouting to justify putting it in a separate section or subsection. --Jagz 20:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I changed the section location. --Jagz 20:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
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