Talk:Scientism

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[edit] RK

RK, could you add a comment that some viewpoints of scienitism are false or self-contradictory. That is, if you take that any non-scientific idea as valid, then you automatically deny that science can be applied to all methods of inquiry. In this entire page of analyzing scientism, I do not see the mention of there being any scientific tests of the various ideas, or even any mention of them. If so, then this is clearly not a scientific idea without testability. The whole point is that theses applying meaning to only scientific statements can easily be self-contradictory.

Sorry RK, but the article is much more POV now, not that it was NPOV before. Can you try to moderate it a bit? BTW, the definition you attribute to a wikipedia contributor, is one that matches the definitions in most well regarded dictionaries. (and, no I didn't add it there myself :) -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 01:42 15 Jun 2003 (UTC) And the word itself in that meaning is well over a hundred years old usage. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 01:46 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I have started to rewrite this entry based on your observation. Thanks. RK 02:00 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Well you did take out the most egregious and blunt rhetoric, but the POV is actually even stronger than before. I mean, if you try to read it from outside, does it not fairly jump into your face that the terms "most scientists" and "many scientists" are the view of the writer. I am not saying that the opinions should not be the predominating ones, but a little more subtleness would not go amiss. With all respect... -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 17:24 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Wikipedia NPOV requires that we distinguish between mainstream beliefs and fringe beliefs. In this article, on this subject it is true that I am in agreement with the view of most scientists. (For other subjects I may not be in agreement with most. That's not really relevant, however.) What concerns me is the way that the term "scientism" is often used as strawman attack. The term "scientism" is used by many writers to describe the beliefs of scientists...except that the vast majority of scientists never had such beliefs (as described by their critics) to begin with. However, please note that I am not opposed to changing the article; any specific suggestions you have are fine, and you are more than welcome to make alterations/additions yourself. RK 23:29 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] The CORRECT definition!

The one way, or the highway, definition of 'scientism' is in the dictionary! There is actually one real dictionary that uses the correct definition. I use this dictionary definition on my web site because it particularly applies to the anti-science phenomena of medical scientism. The actual definition is as follows.

scientism: "the belief that there is one and only one method of science and that it alone confers legitimacy upon the conduct of research."

I shall repeat. My definition of scientism is actually in the dictionary. While I am sure that it is valid in other areas of science, it is particularly valid in the area of medicine. Hence, my usage of the perfectly valid phrase: medical scientism.

I know where you got the text of scientism from, but it completely misses the mark, in my opinion. -- Mr-Natural-Health

In a second dictionary definition:

"1. The collection of attitudes and practices considered typical of scientists."

This definition supports the above precise definition of scientism. -- Mr-Natural-Health 03:06, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Although science is not an enemy of chiropractic, scientism most certainly is. Scientism limits all fields of human inquiry to contemporary technology. Smith states that scientism "...refers to an uncritical idolization of science -- the belief that only science can solve human problems, that only science has value." Holton observed that "Scientism divides all thought into two categories: scientific thought and nonsense." (4,5)

4. Smith RF: "Prelude to Science." Charles Scribner's Sons. New York, NY, 1975. P. 12.
5. Holton G: "The false images of science." In Young LB (ed): "The Mystery of Matter." Oxford University Press. London, UK, 1965.
Ergo, there is only the 'one way of science,' or the highway! -- Mr-Natural-Health 03:21, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

"The ascendancy of the natural scientific community in controlling much opinion , such as through the media, publishing, employment and lobbying - has a narrowing and deleterious effect on culture. Adherents of the pseudo-philosophies of objectivism or positivism try to dictate what is 'sensible', what can be believed or not and even what are acceptable terms or languages to describe the world. Their success in steam-rolling intellectual debate with their short-term pragmatism and naive belief in the neutrality of 'objective theory' and scientific expertise is a major danger to society. They would exclude other world-views quite rigorously and even ridicule as virtually pathological all radical dissent to the hegemony of scientific thinking, ..."

"Steam-rolling intellectual debate ... the hegemony of scientific thinking" is another way of saying: 'the one way' of scientism or the highway! -- Mr-Natural-Health 03:28, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

"economics scientism monopolised by a single approach to the explanation and analysis of economic phenomena."

Here we see 'the one way' of scientism, or the highway, in the field of economics. -- Mr-Natural-Health

[edit] the POV is actually even stronger than before

If User talk:Cimon from the mediation committee says that the POV in Scientism is actually even stronger than before, then I that as a pretty good indication that the POV in this article is abundant. Help me remove it. -- Mr-Natural-Health 04:18, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Critique Section was moved.

Further discussion of Critique Section has been moved. Criticisms of Anti-Scientific Viewpoints was moved from Scientism per the example set in Allopathy that was used to delete [criticisms of modern medicine]. Criticisms of Anti-Scientific Viewpoints has been listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion. Please see that page for justifications and discussion. -- Mr-Natural-Health 18:56, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] the neutrality of this article?

Is the neutrality of this article still in dispute? If so, please state why? How may this article be improved? -- Mr-Natural-Health 20:45, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The Correct Definition

Read Scientism and Values by de:Helmut Schoeck, for the most diverse selection of articles against scientism, based on the Symposium on Scientism and the Study of Man.

Scientism is not a newly-coined word.

Obviously true. It has at least a century of existence. See positivism for the same word with a more neutral, non pejorative sense. Lapaz 04:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The term "scientism" refers only to the fallacious use of the methods of certain natural sciences when we ought to study man as a unique being with emotional, mental, and social potentialities above those of known animals. de:Helmut Schoeck

A critical attitude toward scientism is not to be confused with an antievolutionary position. de:Helmut Schoeck

Scientism means that only value-free concepts are to be employed in the interpretation of the human situation, and that man himself is to be reduced -- via a behavioristic psychology -- to a purely physiochemical complexus of interrelated processes amenable to a complete explanation in terms of the value-free concepts and categories of the natural sciences. W.H. Werkmeister

The undue application of the terminology and of the methods of science to the study of man. Pieter Geyl

Scientism is the profoundly unscientific attempt to transfer uncritically the methodology of the physical sciences to the study of human action. Murray Rothbard

When scientific status is uncritically claimed for the studies of man, the result is what, following Hayek, is known as "scientism." Eliseo Vivas

Scientism, according to Hayek, is the misapplication of the method of natural science in realms where it does not belong... It is the mistaken belief that science, scientific method, and technology with its achievements for human comfort cover the whole of human experience and fulfillment. Ludwig von Bertalanffy

The vulgarization of science -- scientism -- has led many people, including not a few scientists who have lost sight of the philosophical foundations of their craft, to assert that science holds the key to all problems of human experience and that those problems that cannot be dealt with by simplification or abstraction are either trivial problems or no problems at all. Robert Strausz-Hupé

See also Tom Sorell, Scientism: Philosophy and the Infatuation With Science.

Scientism is the belief that science, especially natural science, is much the most valuable part of human learning -- much the most valuable part because it is much the most authoritative, or serious, or beneficial.

Scientism is a matter of putting too high a value on science in comparison with other branches of learning or culture.

New scientism is a reaction against those who write philosophy in ignorance of science, and who defer too much to prescientific intuition or common sense. It is also a reaction against the supposed metaphysical excesses of traditional philosophy, with its irreducible mental substances and events, its Platonic forms, and its transcendental egos.

Old scientism insists on the need not only for philosophy, but for the whole of culture, to be lead by science. This form of scientism has a history stretching back at least to the 1600s; in this century its spokesmen have included Carnap, Reichenbach, Neurath, and other 'scientific emipiricists'.

[edit] POV that needs reference if to stand

I removed this. This is a controversial claim and does no justice to Marxist thought. It needs reference if it is meant to be attack on Lenin-Marxist Communist states.

  • Scientism may also refer to the way in which Marxists appropriated science (especially Darwin) as a justification for Karl Marx's theories, and how science replaced religion in Marxist communism.

[edit] Scientism is always pejorative

This article needs work. Scientism is always a pejorative word, to the contrary of more neutral positivism, which was once claimed by philosophers such as Auguste Comte and was very common in the 19th century. Scientism basically refers to the ideology of science which tends to consider the world only according to its scientifical point of view, being blind to the fact that science itself has an ideology, as did epistemologists such as Gaston Bachelard or Louis Althusser show. Lapaz 04:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

By the way, scientism is not necessarily exclusively an ideology of scientifics. I rm seconds ago a passage in the consciousness entry which said:

"Modern day scientists in the fields of Ethology, Neuroscience and Evolutionary psychology seek to explain it as a function of the human brain that evolved to facilitate reciprocal altruism within societies. As such it could be instinctive (genetically determined) or learnt."
"Conscience can prompt different people in quite different directions, depending on their beliefs, suggesting that while the capacity for conscience is probably genetically determined, its subject matter is probably learnt, or imprinted, like language, as part of a culture. One person can feel a moral duty to go to war, another can feel a moral duty to avoid war under any circumstances."

This is a perfect example of scientism, most probably written by someone who's never opened a biology book in his life (explaining such a phenomenon as "consciousness" by genetics is something that would never occur to 99.99% of any genetician scientifics); it is this statement which directed me here. Lapaz 04:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused by this. Most educated people believe that consciousness is a genetically-encoded potentiality in human beings and whatever other organisms typically develop it. That is not "scientism"; it is just the scientific worldview: the genes of such organisms encode for the development of complex neurophysiology, which is the physical basis of consciousness. However, your actual quote is about conscience, not consciousness. To claim that conscience is genetically determined in some way would be very bold indeed. However, the passage you quote does not say this. It says that the capacity for it is genetic (at the most general level this must be so, since our capacity for human beings and other animals with minds to have minds at all depends on our genetic code and the complex organic structures it produces). However, it says the actual contents or subject matter of the conscience are part of culture, rather than being genetically determined. That isn't a very controversial claim. I really don't see the problem. Metamagician3000 14:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article is horribly far from the mark. Scientism is what happens when people take the visible trappings of science for the essence, essentially making a religion out of it. It is the treating of 'scientists' as a priesthood - something no one who actually understands science would agree with. It is characterised by the treatment of scientific theory as dogma, the substitution of 'scientific consensus' (meaningless to science, but sacrosant to scientism) for evidence, and so on. The article, as it stands at present, is not just worthless but actively misinformative. 4.240.141.126 07:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that anyone has ever claimed to subscribe to a theory or an ideology called "scientism"? As far as I can see, the word is a pejorative one used to attack people who take certain philosophical positions such as naturalism, scientific realism, etc. Beyond stating that that is how I have always heard the word used, I can't support this claim with references, so I have not edited the article itself. However, nothing there convinces me that any such ideology or theory exists. Does anyone have any example of someone claiming to be committed to something they call "scientism"? If there is a notabe body of theory within which the term is applied to opponents, we should report that theory and its claims without endorsing them. E.g. we could say: "Foo applies to the term to the following views ... and argues that they are mistaken for the following reasons ... ", or whatever. Metamagician3000 13:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scientism =?= Positivism

  • JA: I have placed a {citation needed} tag on the assertion of identity or synonymy between scientism and positivism. I think that the reader is owed the favor of citing an external source for such a statement. Jon Awbrey 07:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Scientism != Positivism. For a modern example of scientism, see Richard Dawkins' books, such as The God Delusion. He's not merely atheistic, but naïvely scientistic, and this was noted in this month's Harper's. [1] 198.170.2.93 21:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of scientism

Scientism is the philosophy that science is the primary source of knowledge about the world irrespective of its ontological nature.

Can you cite a source for this definition? --Loremaster 14:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dicdef?

This article looks very much like a dictionary entry, so, unless there is something more to be said about scientism as a whole (rather than concepts which already have their own entries), I suggest moving it to Wiktionary and leaving the contents of the ‘See also’ section as a disambiguation page. —xyzzyn 06:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scientism: the "correct" definition

The correct definition of a word is that which is used in writing and speech. If there is more than one meaning, then there is more than one correct definition. To try to say there is only one 'correct' definition is idiotic. Last I checked, it was a tradition of the English language to have multiple definitions for one spelling of a word. Check out "lay" and tell me how many definitions there are. → R Young {yakłtalk} 00:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Scientism: The word whose definition cannot, by its own definition, be found by applying itself to itself. 198.170.2.93 21:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can someone fix the FORMATTING issues

The formatting of this article needs to be fixed.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 00:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

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