Talk:Sarah Jayne Vercoe

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I don't want to discourage the effort that's obviously gone into this, but is she really notable enough for an article? Ambi 08:10, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I initially thought the same, but then upon further checking, I found an the appropriate category established for offenders of this type, Category:Statutory Rapists. This category already had 7 articles of similar noteworthiness within before I added User:SilverWings most recent additions. Female sex offenders committing offences, especially teachers, aren't as common as male sex offenders, so perhaps this is what makes them more noteworthy? -- Longhair 04:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

This lady would be one of the more notorious of the growing number of recent female sex offenders, particularly in the teaching profession, given the extent of her offences. Whereas some of the offenders committed their crimes against only one of their students, Vercoe offended against five young men, not all of them even students at her own school but their acquaintances in extra-curricular contexts. Vercoe even more than most of the offenders I am currently working on is exceptional and noteworthy, but I am trying to highlight the noteworthiness of each of these offenders as I go. --SilverWings 07:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. The 'phenomenon' might be notable - and deserves an article with examples, but individual "low grade" offenders are not. --kingboyk 06:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't think notability has been established either. Other than mirrors and indy media sites, the name doesn't get many Google hits. And I personally think there should be in-text citations as there's just too many allegations to fly on a couple of generally referenced newspaper articles. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 11:03, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The arguments adduced here by kingboyk and Sarah Ewart are inconsistent with a wide range of other examples of articles which are regularly incorporated into Wikipedia. Let me give a specific example. One may take a detailed article such as Tsukihime, which is one example of a dojin manga referenced from the main article Manga via the List of dojin works. While the general article Manga exists, it is also considered quite appropriate for as many articles as possible to be added to the List of dojin works, as evidenced by the statement therein, "This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it". The existence of a general article does not preclude articles on each, and even perhaps every, example of the general case. I would go so far as to assert that an article about a real person of considerable notoriety within a specific field of interest in a specific country might be considered as worthy of inclusion as an article, such as that I have just mentioned, about a completely fictional work and clearly written by someone who is obviously a fan of such works and therefore not necessarily providing an article without POV issues. There are countless such 'fan-sponsored' articles in Wikipedia.

The suggestion of kingboyk that the subject of this article is a "low grade" offender is perhaps a reflection of the fact that, as a resident of the UK, he has not been aware of the intense and ongoing media reportage concerning the spate of cases of precisely this nature which have been occuring in Australia in the 2004-2006 period. The requirement of Sarah Ewart that there be "in-text citations" is also in excess of the general practice of Wikipedia, in articles such as those linked from the above-mentioned List of dojin works to cite just one set of examples. A reader who took the trouble to refer to the References for this article would find that every fact and cited opinion is drawn from one or more of the articles. In comparison with countless Wikipedia articles on innumerable subjects, it is tortuous to require in-text citation for this one.

I am disappointed that some editors find it necessary to denigrate the value of articles which deal with subjects of interest to a certain section of the community, while not necessarily including themselves, and to which numerous Wikipedians have contributed in a positive and constructive manner. In each of the articles on this subject which I have written, I have deliberately commented, in the concluding paragraph or section, on the importance / significance / notability of the case in question within the broader context of cases of this nature. While some readers may have personal opinions about each case, the total offering I have presented is, I believe, balanced, well-researched and makes a worthwhile contribution to the literature of Australian criminal law in this narrow field. I request that the 'notability' tag on this article please be removed. --SilverWings 15:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Just a little note to let you know that I've been back in the UK for less than a year, and for a year prior to that I was living in Australia. Unlike many non-Aus editors I know who Schapelle Corby is, for example. It's hardly the point though. I'm not talking about newsworthiness, I'm talking about notability for an encyclopedia entry. You know, something that with any luck will still be around in 100 years time. By "low grade" I don't mean that your article is "low grade", just that there's little to seperate her from millions of other offenders. --kingboyk 04:23, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Citations are not an excessive request. In fact, they are mandatory. Please see WP:LIVING#Credible_sources and WP:CITE. When you are dealing with the reputations of living people, you must cite sources. Articles which make serious allegations about living people should not go live on the site until they are properly referenced. I understand you've done a lot of work on these articles, but I object to your "denigrate" comment. With regard to your comments in the article about the importance of the subject, I also have a problem with that as it is essentially editorialising. Encyclopedias do not analyse; they present verifiable facts. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:05, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Punctuation

The unsigned user at 71.193.216.103 has made a number of changes to punctuation which are either unnecessary (mainly insertion of commas) or erroneous (placing of commas and quotation marks in incorrect order) which I will be correcting shortly, to revert to the way I wrote them. I have referred to Fowler's and Wood's English usage manuals to make sure I am correct.

In regard to the use of commas, I am using for example Wood's dictum that "...on the whole it seems a sound principle to omit the comma if it can be omitted" (Frederick T Wood, Current English Usage: A concise dictionary. London: Macmillan, 1962, p. 51). In regard to the order of commas and quotes, the comma always follows the closing quote unless it is part of the quote itself (which would be unusual). --SilverWings 07:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

That's not correct, particularly not by Australian writing conventions. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 11:05, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I would screw any of these women in a minute if I had the chance. O where were they when I needed them in High school? That aside has anyone wondered why these women dont pick on guys their ages? There must have been quite a number of guys in their age bracket that would have consented to having sex with them for the asking. It is strange to me because I dont think I would be attracted by an underage girl when there are so many of mature age about.

[edit] Nature of the sexual contacts

The same user made several amendments to suggest that "having sex" was the main nature of Vercoe's activities, and those of other related offenders. I had deliberately used broader terms in several places because a variety of forms of sexual contact was involved, and will be reverting some of the changes made. A few of this user's amendments were valid and helpful and should be retained. --SilverWings 07:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)