Talk:Sandy Berger
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ] | ||
Some consideration should be lent toward the scope of this article.
If questions regarding the timing of the publicity of the investigation are valid, then it is also valid to point out opposition to the contemptable attempt to glaze over the deed itself.
- Suggesting that the leak of information about the investigation was deliberately timed for political reasons does not inherently "attempt to glaze over the deed itself." It is entirely possible for both Sandy Berger to be an evil spy and for the leak of information about the investigation to have been politically motivated. Bryan 00:05, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
We agree this is a legal matter, subject to legal evaluation, which is still in progress. I am not sure if your reference to contemptible applies to me, to the action, Sandy Berger or what? How can you possibly say that something which is under investigation has property X? Actions occur in contexts, I think you agree, and you have not considered the context. CSTAR 19:00, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- But in any case, it's acceptable for now...
"contemptible" applies to 'attempt[s] to glaze over the deed itself'. Not to individuals discussing the matter here.
We all know why a person answers questions about A with questions about B. From what I have heard of Berger's admissions, Berger broke the law. I do not believe Berger is an 'evil spy'. I do not doubt that the timing was 'politically motivated'. I do not see the latter as an answer to questions about the former.
This is indeed a legal matter. Berger admitted to actions that are against the law. That is absolutely true. Whether the man is convicted or punished for his crime is another matter which I've not raised in the article.
- I agree that his guilt or innocence in this matter is not relevant to the issue of whether the leak about the investigation is politically motivated, that's exactly why I've been trying to ensure that the wording in the article doesn't present those as an either/or proposition. (oh, I don't think he's an "evil spy" either, and I'm not suggesting anyone here does - I was just using hyperbole for rhetorical purposes, my bad. :) Bryan 23:51, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
OK there seems to be a lot of discussion ;) trying to settle on some satisfactory account of events. I'll be be optimistic and see if there is some possibility of dialogue.
Previous editor argues: There is no reason to remove factual information from article
- OK, there are lots of facts not mentioned in the article. Indeed there are an infinite number of facts. I'll kindly interpret those remarks to mean factual and relevant; that's fair enough, since relevant is mentioned previously. (I don't mean kind interpretation to mean condescension. I'm using as a name for a principle of rhetoric, to concede the maximal meaningful context to the interlocutor)
- Obviously it is a fact; if Berger removed an item, then that item had to be in some way physically attached to his person as Berger left the room. This follows from almost reasonable account of the laws of mechanics. However, why is the fact relevant any more than other true (and derivable) facts about Berger and the documents at that moment.
Anyway I would like to encourage reasonable dialogue on this, even though we may be miles apart on some of the issues.CSTAR 18:58, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Statements by "Some"
"Some suggested that Berger's removal of the documents constituted theft and moreover had serious national security implications. Also, some have voiced suspicion about the timing of the leak of the investigation, suggesting it might have been intended to distract attention from the release of the 9/11 Commission report later that week and the Democratic National Convention the following week."
Can we have quotes on these "suggestions" by "some"? At least links to one article that makes these suggestions and suspicions, rather than the ad hoc and intellectually fallible use of "some"?
--Xinoph 22:27, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
- Well, as luck would have it, an op-ed in today's (March 30, 2005) edition of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution written by Bob Barr makes exactly such accusations (in addition to accusing Pres. Bush of refusing to prosecute Berger for fear that bringing up the issue will resurrect questions about Rice's handling of pre-9/11 intelligence). --Delirium 04:47, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Article appears completely factual NPOV is uncalled for. If Berger deserves defense for the crime he's already pled guilty to that defense should be added as long as it's also factual. If something in the article is wrong that should be discussed hee and corrected/proven in the article - Honest Abe 13 Aug 05
-
- Some of the things you posted directly contradict statements in the article you listed. Berger took no original papers, only copies. Please stop posting unbacked partisan rhetoric. Trilemma 01:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Joel Hillman statement of no notes in the margin
Hillman said: "...the five iterations of the anti-terror "after-action" report at issue in the case were printed out from a hard drive at the Archives and have no notations at all." This is insufficient information because past statements made by administration officials and complicit sycophants often argued minutia. (What the meaning of "is" is, or "that legal rule does not apply because there is no legal ruling authority.") Were the destroyed documents printed out just for Berger's use - or were they pre-existing documents that others had access to? If so, did others add contemporaneous comments to them, or not? How can we be sure? Were the copies, to which Hillman referred, made for the archive from an electronic source file, or were they original copies made for an NSA meeting and handed out to partricipants at that meeting who may have added comments.
Occam's razor says stealing documents by putting them in one's underwear - when a briefcase is available (which he admits to having), but bears the potential of a casual search - indicates a motive of secrecy. Removing multiple copies of the same document in such a manner by the same logic indicates a need to cover up some damaging content that is either in all of them or was added after they were printed out.
Corollary motives could be argued: Berger did not know the memos he stole out of the archives and destroyed were copies, so the destruction may have been an incorrect assumption that their destruction erased their ability to be examined. Or Berger knew they were copies, so stole them in such a covert manner, in order to have access to them for future reference. WmLambert 14:50, 29 December 2005 (UTC-5)
Berger put no documents in his underwear, only in his pockets. Please don't post unbacked partisan rhetoric. JamieMcCarthy 13:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Biographies of Living Persons
I have blanked the section discussing the media response to Mr. Berger's conviction (in particular, the demotion of his significance to Sen. Kerry's campaign in news articles). The section did not have high-quality references (in fact it had no references) and therefore did not conform to the Biographies of living persons standard. I think it would be extremely useful information to this article if it is true, but only if it cites high-quality sources.
 This policy in a nutshell: |
| Articles about living persons must adhere strictly to NPOV and verifiability policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim. |
--Burzum 06:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Previous suspicions of theft
Why is there no mention of the document stolen in September? The external link from the Washington Post states that the staff was suspicious of Berger after the first incident of missing documents. It is only because of these suspicions that they actually set a trap and caught him in October. It seems biased to neglect to mention this fact. It seems more likely that he got away with at least one theft and only caught later.
