Talk:Salvation Army

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The language needs to be a little de-biased. None of the facts are biased, just the prose. Like "The Salvation Army is, and has always been, first and foremost, a Christian Church." Kent Wang 21:19, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree. I am a former Salvationist and still (mostly) support the beliefs and work of the Army, but I read this article and couldn't help but think that it was written primarily by someone in the Army's PR department. Good facts, but lots of assumptions made. When I get a few spare minutes someday, I'll come back and see what I can do to work on it. cluth 04:49, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
_alot_ of refrences needed

Contents

[edit] Bands, music, etc - not a mention??!!

No mention at all of bands - yet surely this is one of the best-known characteristics of the SA?? Could a knowledgeable person not add a paragraph on this, please? Nevilley 23:15, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've reinstated my edits. If Christians don't like them Christians should try and refute the logic. Barbara Shack 13:50, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I will continue to revert your edits. I don't like them but I am not a Christian (stupid assumption, Barbara). This is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox or a student debating society. Don't try to show off your "logical" skills by trashing an article: it is not allowed here. Understand? I am bored with trying to explain this to you, so I won't any more - but your stupid, unencyclopedic additions to the article will continue to be reverted. It's an encyclopedia - do you not understand that??? --82.35.17.203 21:00, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm an atheist and I totally agree with the above user. This is an encyclopedia. Kent Wang 22:50, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Why are you so abusive without daring to give a name??? Barbara Shack 15:45, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Why am I so abusive? - well, I was prepared to discuss this with you politely and tried to do so. You ignored these efforts and continued with your existing behaviour, which in my opinion was itself abusive of what this project is supposed to be about. So as far as I am concerned, you started the abuse. You be polite and co-operative and I will too.
without daring to give a name - you are mistaken: you mean without choosing to give a name. "Daring" has nothing to do with it and a guess at my reasons for this choice, or an attempt to goad me, is not going to work. If you do not like wikipedia's policy of allowing anonymous edits, then I suggest you campaign against it. As the project stands, however, I am quite within my rights.
In summary, I am sorry if you felt abused, but I did too, first, by you, for the reasons which I have detailed. And it did appear to get your attention in a way which my previous polite attempt did not: I am surprised that you do not appear to sense how your statement about Christians above could itself be offensive. I am quite happy to work with you but only if it is on a basis of co-operation and mutual respect. --82.35.17.203 15:21, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I made a slight change to the new content on the anti-gay thing. It sounded somewhat POV in the way it was worded, and also repeated, more or less verbatim, text from earlier in the article. However it seemed sensible to keep in the bit pointing out explicitly the paradoxical nature of the concern for some groups and not others. I hope the new edit works. --Fanger 12:45, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Replace "paradoxical" with "paradoxic dogma" and you've struck it on the nose. It's important to note, that as with quite a few other religions/denominations, individuals don't always make up their own minds on issues but rather follow the dogmatic beliefs which church officials pass along. It's the "cost" of being part of a church in a lot of cases. --ABQCat 03:58, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

December 14, 2005. I've again made some changes, that never seem to last through an edit by Wiki editors. I deleted the line about William Booth leaving the New Connexion for two reasons: 1. it is out of chronological order, and 2. it is more appropriate for the Wiki entry on William Booth. I've deleted the paragraph on homosexuality for two reasons: 1. it isn't accurate. The official position statements of The Salvation Army are not against homosexuality but homosexual practice (I've tried to make this distinction in an earlier edit but was over-ruled), and 2. it is not a major aspect of The Salvation Army. If SA views on homosexuality belong here, then, for example, so do its pro-life views, as these certainly affect more people in the world than the former views. posted by Stephen Court, December 14, 2005.

[edit] Prophetic Reminder -- of what?

I don't understand this sentence:

As a prophetic reminder to the rest of the Body of Christ, the Salvation Army decided not to practice baptism or to celebrate the Lord's Supper in any form.

Maybe it's steeped in Salvation Army doctrinal terms? I know what baptism and the Lord's Supper are ... but what exactly did cessation of these activities prophesy, and what did it remind of? Jdavidb 20:45, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hi- I wrote that. It comes from The Salvation Army's non-sacramental stance. The Christian Church practises those two sacraments (Lord's Supper and water baptism). The Salvation Army doesn't. Part of the reason is what it would call a prophetic reminder to the rest of the Christian Church that those sacraments are merely an outward sign of an inward experience. Reference: Eugene Pigford, Sacraments chapter in SALVATIONISM 201, a training guide for Salvationists, 1999.). posted by Stephen Court, December 8, 2005.

Hi- It is December 10, and it has been removed again, with no explanation. Why? Stephen Court, December 10, 2005.

[edit] Bell-ringing?

Woah, an entire article about the Salvation Army without any mention of bell-ringing and red kettles?!?

Is this article even about what I think it is? (The US Salvation Army that collects money with their, yes, bells?) --Jared [T]/[+] 23:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexuality para and other amendments

Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Salvation_Army&diff=6530042&oldid=6503347

In their revision of 22:24, 11 Oct 2004, 209.53.208.34 removed a whole paragraph about homosexuality, healthcare and New York City. There was nothing put in this Talk page or in the edit summary to explain it. There may be a perfectly good reason for this para being taken out but to do so without explanation looks potentially dishonest. If you feel this para should go, please explain why and if necessary provide sources. It may be that it is better to explain in the article - if, say, that was the policy but is no longer, then the change in policy might be interesting. But simply to take out a huge chunk with no explanation is not really done.

I have put the paragraph back, and I very much hope that people will continue to keep an eye on this article for balance.

I also modified one other paragraph which I felt was starting to sound a bit like an SA statement. I have a great deal of respect for this organization but I do think we need to avoid sounding like this: it's not very neutral. Also, you can't say "eventide homes" in a UK context: it is pretty much without meaning there.

Regards, Gonegonegone 19:13, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This article still needs watching. Someone changed the NYC bit subtly to make it more like an official SA statement - blah blah blah "in no way effects their decisions" - well that's their PoV would have thought, but not encyclopaedic. I have tried to rebalance it but, like I say, it needs watching. 138.37.188.109 08:22, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What does the healthcare benefits of a homosexual spouse of an EMPLOYEE of the Salvation Army have to do with the mission of the church or the church itself? What is the relevance of even mentioning it? Do other churches pay their homosexual employee's spouse's health benefits? Why would a gay person be working for such an organization, anyway? I wish someone could find out how many gay employee's they have, anyway. Funny they'll help the dregs of society get off booze and drugs but scorn others.

(The above is from 02:16, 3 November 2005 68.44.141.17) Gonegonegone 09:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I hope you do not mind my sorting out the format of your paragraph. Unfortunately your speacing at the start made it display oddly, with most of the text off the RH end of the screen.
I feel that the New York issue is highly relevant. It doesn't matter what other churches do - this is not an article about them, so, with all due respect, I feel that we can pretty much disregard that element of your question with regard to this article. If you feel it's relevant to the work of other churches, then it is quite simple - you just need to research it for those other churches, and add text to their articles explaining what their policies are and how they are relevant to the work of that church. Returning to the question of this article, of course it's relevant. The SA does undoubtedly fantastic and significant work and (according to the story as it was presented: I am no expert) the conflict between thier policies and those of NYC caused a risk to that work. Given people's perception of the Army and the importance of its work, I would have thought that this was of huge importance. Gonegonegone 09:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi- I'm going to remove it today, December 8 2005, as this seems to be a regional conflict. For those in Europe, Africa, Asia, South America, and so on, it doens't seem to warrant mention. posted by Stephen Court, December 8, 2005.

The NY issue gives insight into the Salvation Army; they believe in their principles so strongly that when their actions conflict with the law they'll withdraw from that jurisdiction rather than compromise.-gadfium 21:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

hi- this is a good point. The official statements of The Salvation Army speak of activity rather than persuasion, though. It might be more accurate to include this clarification. Stephen Court, December 10, 2005.

[edit] New Section added - Alove UK

2005-01-24 : added a new section on the recent development (at the moment just within the UK) of Alove, which is a new initative within the SA as regards "youth work". - Lurch Kimded

[edit] Some Grammar Stuff

I changed some of the sentences so the grammar was a little better. I hope i did not change anything really important to the article. Also, I think the "mission" paragraph in the history section should be removed, as their already is a "mission" section.Xunflash 19:14, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Activities in Russia?

Perhaps someone who knows better can elaborate on the Russian government's bizarre treatment of the SA, claiming they were a "paramilitary organization."

[edit] "The" Salvation Army

Given that the definite article is part of the organisation's name, should this not be at The Salvation Army? A small point maybe, given the existence of a redirect, but we have, for example, The Beatles rather than Beatles. Loganberry (Talk) 23:20, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you, Logan. "The" is part of the official name of "The Salvation Army". It is what is written on the crest, the shield, and nearly everywhere else the name can be found. This article should be moved to "The Salvation Army".
Neelix 13:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article continues to need watching for NPoV

I feel that this article continues to need watching. The SA obviously attracts strong feelings, both positive and negative, and at various times the article's neutrality has been attacked by people trying to shift it, subtly and sometimes less subtly, closer to their point of view. This process continues right up to now and I guess will for ever. As an ex-user I have no energy for this stuff, but I would like to think that this article deserves keeping an eye on. The people who need to keep an eye on it most are not those who love the SA, or hate it, but those who love Wikipedia and its policies regarding NPOV. I put my faith in the goodwill of those people and wish the article, and all of you, well. Gonegonegone 09:27, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I did a bit of NPOVing for the most egregious stuff. What do you think about putting a NPOV tag on this? Or a possible NPOV tag? I personally don't have time to NPOV all of it right now. Janet13 03:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Looking at the way it's going, I think an NPOV tag might be a good idea. It's currently reading more and more like it was written by the SA. 138.37.199.199 11:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Quality ? - Personal opinion

My feeling is that this article has become more and more :-( :-( :-(. It's no more something for a good encyclopedia, it's rather something for people who have different opinions about the Salvation Army and write a bit what they know. E.g.: much of the article is written about one country although the Salvation Army works in more than 100. Example: Work started 1880 not only in the US but also in Australia and Ireland...But here starts already the question: Which one is "worth" to be mentioned and how much? or this: "...In many places across the USA and Canada, The Salvation Army is recognizable in the Christmas season for its volunteers who stand outside...." this has surely not written an expert. He would have known, that this happens all over the world. Surely there are good parts in the article but completely rewrite would probably be the best. It doesn't need a dissertation. More quality than quantity. Take out links which do not work etc. Kind regards

Yes but not all of what you complain is that bad. People tend to write what they know - I too have noticed that some of the internationalism is rather lacking but it wouldn't be such a huge task to revise these bits to be more international. I am much more worried about the way the article gets used, as you have pointed out, to promote different points of view. 138.37.199.199 11:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I already tried to make it more international - but there are sometimes people who do not really realize this. It is really a questions: should I list now only the leader of the Salvation Army in the US (why from the US many people would ask) or do I list all the leaders of all countries or do I simply say: we list the international leader (General) and that's it? HAMUBA 16:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I've made a change to the wording of the section that might help a bit. You're right -- it was silly to say the SA had more than 1.4 million members worldwide and then later state that the US has 1.4 million members. I removed the first reference so we can find a correct total for the world instead of basing it off the US statistic. I also remove the leaders from specific countries -- someone could make List of SA Leaders in Country if they really wanted to, but you're right, its nonsensical to only include leaders from specific countries unless something else makes them notable.
I agree that things need to have a world view, but just blinding chopping out the entire section removed some valuable information at the same time, which is why I reverted. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 16:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Fixed the statistics -- The US stats are listed in the different sections under people [1] and the international statistics are from 2004 [2] and are somewhat confusing since members may be listed in more than one category -- hopefully the statistics are more accurate the the previous version which appeared to use the US stats for the World. If anyone knows if the 2005 statistics have been published, please feel free to update them. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 17:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't mix

Perhaps I should add once, that it is very difficult if in the article the expression "members" and "soldiers" are mixed. Never mix this up - a member of the Salvation Army is not necessarily a soldier. Members can also be adherents etc. Therefore it is wrong to say that in the US are 400 000 soldiers of the Salvation Army. HAMUBA 10:28, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the note about uniforms to mention that its not all members, just the soldiers which wear the uniforms. I've also updated the information on uniforms so that its current and reflects the world view, not just the navy worn in the US. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 15:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV-check tag added

As per previous discussions (esp. section 9: This article continues to need watching for NPoV above).Janet13 08:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think it's actually pretty close - I tagged it based on one particularly bad section but I just NPOV'ed it a bit and scanned the rest -- it looks okay. If others want to read through to check the NPOV and decide to remove the NPOV-check tag, I'm fine with that. :) Janet13 08:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I didn't remove the NPOV-check tag, but I agree with its removal. If there are specific things that are still wrong/biased about the article, posting them (the specifics) here would be muchly appreciated. John Broughton 21:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Bush-SA disrimination memo flap

Under controversies i added the thing about Bush, his faith based initiative, and the SA internal memo reported by Washington Post that basically says "we will support Bush if Bush can help us skirt the local and state laws that prohibit us from discriminating against gay people". The whole controversies lasted a while, until the tragic events of 9/11 overshadowed them all. I think this is an aspect fo Salvation army that deserves reporting, even if it is not particularly flattering for the organization.--Bud 21:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I see, that some people feel this as important and it might be, that it is for the Salvation Army in the US an important thing. But because the Salvation Army works in 111 countries, it seems to me not the right place to add this controversy. Have you ever thought of opening a special article or so about controversy in connection with the Salvation Army? Or it should perhaps be added to the article which is already started regarding the Salvation Army Western Territoy in the USA. It seems to me, that this would be rather the place to put it. HAMUBA 15:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move parts of the article from International Salvation Army to US Salvation Army

Please take note, that as the Salvation Army works in 111 countries some special articles are open now (also in other languages). The parts which are mostly regarding the USA and which do not touch so much the international Salvation Army should be moved to such articles. So the controversy which is an US theme is also moved to Western. I hope everybody can agree with this. --HAMUBA 16:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I would agree in principle with moving the items. However, these bits don't have anything to do with the Western Territory. I would urge someone from the Eastern Territory to create an Eastern Territory page similar to what has been done with the West, and then we could move the disputed sections there. For now though, I will have to revert your changes HAMUBA as the Refuge is not a Western program. Is there anyone out there who can create an Eastern Territory page? Mcb197 19:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

How about locating these articles regarding the US in a American nation-wide Salvation Army page? I am the one who addded the story of the Washington Post and Bush and i would put it in a section dedicated to US nation-wide controversies, maybe even a specilaized controversy section dealing with anti-gay initiatives within the Salvation Army. --Bud 19:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Good idea Bud. An article about the S.A. in the United States, with a section on controversy would be very appropriate. Is there anyone out there with knowledge and background enough to create a Salvation Army USA page? Mcb197 19:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The Salvation Army's opinion toward Homosexuals, Alchoholics, Drug Addicts and everyone else living in sin, is accept them with arms wide open. But, we do not condone their behavior and we will call a sin a sin. But, we try help people out of their sin via love not discrimination. Joe

If the Salvation army really embrace "sinners" like us with open arms, then they wont make a deal with the Bush administration that would have helped them to skirt local and state anti-discrimination laws. The truth is that the Salvation army want to enjoy US government grants for non-profits organtations while blatantly thumping its nose at minority segments of society by discriminating in their hiring policies. They cannot have it both ways: either embrace the anti-discrimination laws or stop accepting government money.--Bud 07:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The "arms wide open" excuse is, frankly a crock (or red kettle) of shit. Opposing laws which would outlaw discrimination - including laws that would not apply to the Salvation Army because of a religious exemption - is not "love". Neither is equating gays with drug addicts. The behavior of the Salvation Army with respect to laws prohibiting discrimination in housing, for example, in New York City, is disgraceful. - Outerlimits 23:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

i think that this is very good for Australia. Good Work!!

Why should the Army be forced to hire active homosexuals if they believe that it is morally wrong? Here in Toronto, the Salvation Army has homosexuals work at their hospitals, and even have a gay Toronto counciller on it's board of directers in Kyle Rae. This seems to refelect on the Salvation Army in the United States as much as it does in other countries. SFrank85 15:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The Salvation army has no obligation to hire gay people. However, if they are hanging onto their mission and purpose as a religious organization first and social welfare organization second, then the SA should not enjoy government funding. In the United States, if you receive government money for your work, you are not allowed to discriminate against any segment of society in your hiring practice, because government money is meant to serve all people's welfare, not just people the organization likes. Gay people pay taxes too, so why are our money used to sponsor an organization that refuse to hire or serve our community?--Bud 02:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

The Expansion section says the Salvation Army became active in Northern Ireland in 1880; that was however 41 years before Northern Ireland came into being. Activity in Ireland (i.e. the island, presumably) is listed as beginning in 1884. Can someone provide verifiable references for these points, and indeed for the entire section? --Kwekubo 00:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

I just breezed by here but stopped when I noticed the massive External links section. Few of them seem to pass the criteria in Wikipedia:External links's section "What should be linked to". Is there some special reason that I'm unaware of (as an editor unfamiliar with the history of this page) that the article needs so many external links? If not, they should be pared down to just a bare few that link to the major official sites. — Saxifrage ✎ 17:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Huxley's Attack

...I hesitate to mention it, as it was... pretty nasty, but it is part of the Salvation Army's history. So, should Huxley's attack on the Darkest England Scheme (part of it here) be added, with appropriate balancing counterarguements?

Please don't think I'm anti-Salvation Army. I do think that, whatever the truth of Huxley's allegations then, they have no bearing on the Salvation army over a century later. At the same time, it is an aspect of the history being ignored. Is it possible to work it in sensitively? Adam Cuerden 20:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

The image layout is a bit funky. Everyone is trying to fix it but it seems one fix breaks it for another person. Can someone with expertise on layout out images please help? — JeremyTalk 23:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mistaken

This article is right about how people mistake for a charity. I almost donated to them, but I was told it was a christian mission. I though it was some kind of large group of social workers trying to save Africa, Asia, or the Middle East. I didn't know the salvation was in the afterlife and not this life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Talib 72 (talk • contribs) 16:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Page layout

The current page layout is bad. On my screen, after the intro there is a giant blank space. Please fix if you know how. ike9898 17:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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