Talk:Salome

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[edit] Pronunciation, accent

"Salome" is an English word, without squiggles, and is pronounced and accented differently from French and German. This is not about the Wilde play, the Flaubert short story, or the Strauss opera. Rather it is about the historical person who has a name of her own in English.

It's pronounced in English almost like "salami", with the second, 'a' to be done as a big round O: suh-LO-me, sæl-LO-me, with the accent on the second syllable (unlike French or German).

Biblical dictionaries and encyclopedias tend to call her "[The] Daughter of Herodias". Thus, Salome, the daughter of Herodias is probably the best name-space for the article, considering how huge the disambig page is. I notice the disambig page omits the family pig owned by Al Capp's L'il Abner. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FourthAve (talk • contribs) 8 Sept 2005.

You may pronounce it suh-LO-me, sæl-LO-me, but I have certainly heard literate English-speakers use other pronunciations, including SAH-loh-may.
The accent is presumably specific to English, to indicate that this is not the usual silent terminal letter "e". -- Jmabel | Talk 02:43, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support --Francis Schonken 19:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. You probably shouldn't have used Oscar Wilde's Salomé as your only example since it was originally written in French, so that play should probably be moved to Salomé (play). Yet even though the KJV (Mark 15:40 and Mark 16:1) and every other Bible version that I've checked (plus my translation of Josephus, for the "other" Salomé) does not have the accent, I still prefer that version to show that it should be three syllables instead of two. BlankVerse 20:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • On the contrary, I had moved Salomé (play) to Salome (play) earlier today - which I couldn't imagine to be a controversial move: all of (e.g.) Alexandre Dumas, père's writings are at their English names, surely they were written in French before being translated? When an English-language author writes something in French, and a few years later authorises an English edition of the same (so that there is no shred of a doubt over the "standard English translation" of the title, which is in all probability used more often to refer to the English language version of the play), I can't imagine why that English version would be controversial, following WP:UE? There's nowhere mentioned in naming conventions guidelines up till now that the way things are pronounced should influence choice of the page name: if such pronunciation info is desired, IMHO it should be in the article text (not in the article name). Article titles are rather about recognisability, which is of course recognisability of the written text, while Wikipedia is accessed by reading & typing. If Google test shows a tenfold of occurences of Salome compared to Salomé, it's IMHO not hard to distinguish what's most recognisable in writing. --Francis Schonken 22:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Why is the English form of a biblical name (Hebrew?) using a French accent mark? You don't need an accent mark to know it has three syllables -- just listen to the Jimmy Buffett song. (And what about Calliope? Ariadne?) LuiKhuntek 07:20, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. If I remember right, the article was created at Salome. Technically, this isn't a Biblical name. I personally feel that non-English diacritical characters do not belong in article titles in the English language Wikipedia, and at minimum should always be created as redirects or disambiguations. Smerdis of Tlön 14:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. Marco79 17:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. Gene Nygaard 16:02, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Dragons flight 05:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

[edit] dance of the seven veils

Is she somehow connected with the Dance of the seven veils? The main article (before the works of art) is nearly silent about this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.132.40.205 (talk • contribs) 12 Dec 2006.

[edit] The Dubliners

Under "Rock music": "The Dubliners mention Salome on their song 'Maloney wants a drink' - A song about Mad Maloney (band member) and how he turned down Salome and had himself a drink instead (this song also mentions other biblical figures such as Eve)."

For starters, if the Dubliners are a rock band then the Mona Lisa is an abstract painting. But that aside, is this really an effort to find every obscure, trivial allusion to Salome and slap it into the article? Or only (as I would hope) ones that either represent significant treatments of the story or demonstrate the permeation of the story into an interesting setting? Popular song in the folk tradition makes Biblical allusions left and right: is there really a need to mention them in articles about the Biblical figures? Are we going to mention in the article on Nineveh that a Glasgow street song has a verse that starts "There was a man in Nineveh / And he was wondrous wise?" This seems to me to be the wrong way round. If the songs themselves are notable enough to write about, we can use links to explain their allusions, but, otherwise, serious topics keep getting bogged down with trivia. - Jmabel | Talk 00:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

See wikipedia:trivia (and its talk page).
Don't be scared to remove remote trivia: if it brings no additional insight in what "Salome" means, I don't know what it's doing here. --Francis Schonken 09:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Accordingly, I have cut the following:

The Smashing Pumpkins' promo video for the 2000 single Stand Inside Your Love, taken from the album MACHINA/The Machines of God, is based upon Salome's dance.
The Dubliners mention Salome on their song 'Maloney wants a drink' - A song about Mad Maloney (band member) and how he turned down Salome and had himself a drink instead (this song also mentions other biblical figures such as Eve).

Jmabel | Talk 06:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

This article is increasingly a compendium of pop culture trivia about references to Salome. Perhaps we should split those off into a separate article? - Jmabel | Talk 05:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

see wikipedia talk:Trivia (and also this village pump discussion: [1]), enthousiasm for this kind of splits was low on average (although defended vigourously by some). My personal opinion (which I think to be more or less the average opinion): remove the cruft, i.e. things that don't bring insight on the subject. In the case of this article such "cruft" would for example be a song that refers to Salome without leading to any change in the perception of the biblical/literary figure of Salome. How different from (e.g.) how Wagner's Walkyries never was the same again after Apocalypse now, so: in that case: not cruft. As well (e.g.) Oscar Wilde and Richard Strauss had a decisive impact on the perception of Salome (e.g. the "Seven veils dance"); someone referring to that in a new song, without shedding a new light on popular understanding of the figure of Salome is too non-notable to be included in this article. Make a link to [[Salome]] in the article on the pop artist, on the Album or on the pop song if you think it relevant to any of these, but for the Salome article the relevance is zero. Making a sub-article would only make it worse. And of course, in the Salome article it can be mentioned that the number of references to this biblical/literary figure in popular culture is "uncountable" (and so: don't start the counting in wikipedia: too non-notable). --Francis Schonken 12:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I've restored Forgotten Silver. (It had been commented out by Francis Schonken with the remark "Remark: If most these 25 REAL films are not notable enough to be mentioned, I don't see how a FICTIONAL film would be more worth mentioning.") Yes, that Salome is merely a film within a film, but it figures prominently (and as a set of fragments that are actually shown) in one of the half dozen most important films to come out of New Zealand in the second half of the 20th century (even if, as I gather, it was originally made for television). However, I am in accord with Francis Schonken's other cuts, and am moving these here, along with his comments:

U2 offered a song about Salome from the perspective of Herod as a B-side on their 1992 single Even Better Than The Real Thing which accompanied their 1991 album Achtung Baby. As befits the motif, the song is eminently danceable. A remix was released on the fan-club only album Melon (album) which was re-edited for the B-Sides disc of The Best of 1990-2000 album.
Remark: Song title missing - how is this supposed to be VERIFIABLE that this is a significant song about Salome???
Death metal band Cryptopsy features Salome holding the head of the prophet on the cover of their 1996 classic None So Vile.
Remark: Salome, or someone looking like Salome (maybe the cover alluded to Judith and Holofernes???)?
Alternative-country band Old 97's recorded Salome on their 1997 album Too Far To Care using the metaphor of Salome torturing John the Baptist to explain the hardships of dating.
Remark: remote, irrelevant, one of thousands of references to Salome and/or the dance of the seven veils, not bringing anything new to the understanding of Salome -- "hardships of dating" is a connotation of the song, not of "Salome".
Liz Phair's "Dance of the Seven Veils" references the Salome-John the Baptist narrative.
Remark: remote, irrelevant, one of thousands of references to Salome and/or the dance of the seven veils, not bringing anything new to the understanding of Salome
Additionally, Latin pop singer and dancer Chayanne also has a song called "Salome" on his 1998 album, Atado a tu amor. The song is about the singer's (supposed) infatuation with a woman who dances so well she inspires a passion similar to the one which led Herod to promise her anything in exchange for watching her dance.
Remark: remote, irrelevant, one of thousands of references to Salome and/or the dance of the seven veils, not bringing anything new to the understanding of Salome -- "Passion similar to" is a connotation of the song, not of "Salome".
Carol Ann Duffy has written a poem about the character Salome in the anthology "The World's Wife" depicting a modern version of the character Salome.
Remark: remote, irrelevant, one of thousands of references to Salome and/or the dance of the seven veils, not bringing anything new to the understanding of Salome -- "A modern version of the character Salome" is a connotation of the poem, not of "Salome".

- Jmabel | Talk 07:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] used as an allusion

Moved here from the article page:

Salome is also the name of a song by Texas alt-country band The Old 97's. Using the biblical character as an allusion, the song describes a woman who is not right for a man and who causes trouble in his life.

"used as an allusion" may be very important for The Old 97's band (so can be mentioned in that article, and even at Salome (disambiguation) if you like, or in the article on the album where the song features, etc...), for the Salome article: Trivia. --Francis Schonken 15:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Forgotten silver (revisited)

Sorry, no, Trivia. I didn't find any reference that the film in film theme being "Salome" was even the aspect that made the Forgotten Silver film to what it was. Salome not mentioned in the Forgotten Silver article, etc... Doesn't learn anything new about Salome than what is already in the article: that there are dozens of films referring to the theme. --Francis Schonken 15:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to make a comparison here: Hitler is a historical figure. The Adolf Hitler article currently lists two "documentaries" and five "dramatisations". Not among these:
For understanding each of these film/theatre production articles it is important to have a clue who Hitler was, so each of these articles has an internal link to the Adolf Hitler article somewhere in the text. For understanding who Hitler was as a historical figure or as an "archetype", for instance, Springtime for Hitler is not a source of importance, so there's no need to mention the Mel Brooks film in the Adolf Hitler article.
Similarly, no need to mention the Forgotten Silver movie in the Salome article (but it is advised to link to the Salome article from the Forgotten Silver article). --Francis Schonken 15:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More of the same

Moving to talk page:

Among others, breakcore artist Hecate appropriated the theme of Salomé's dance on the album Seven Veils of Silence (2004), using elements of traditional arabic music, breakbeats and droning noise/industrial ambiences.

--Francis Schonken 22:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Continued

Australian musician Nick Cave wrote a 5-act play entitled Salomé which is included in the 1988 collection of Cave's writings, King Ink (the play alludes to the Gospel account, Wilde's play, and Pierre Puvis de Chavannes's 1869 painting, The Beheading of John the Baptist).

Note that:

  • The Nick Cave text is now mentioned at Salome (disambiguation)
  • It is not a 5 act play, but was titled "Five Plays" by Cave, totalling 9 pages of lyrics;
  • There are two 1869 paintings titled The Beheading of John the Baptist by Pierre Puvis de Chavannes [2] - so, unclear reference.

--Francis Schonken 08:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] And again

Michelle Kwan famously skated as Salome in the 1996 season, winning both national and world championships.

...trivia, no? --Francis Schonken 08:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] and a new one

In Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical Sunset Boulevard, Norma Desmond wrote a script called Salome. It is a comicaly dramatic script for a movie in which she plays the lead roll.

Was it in the Sunset Boulevard film too? --Francis Schonken 15:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paragraph removed to talk

I have removed this paragraph:

[edit] Other references to Salome in modern and popular culture

References to Salome and/or allusions to the dance of the seven veils are legion in modern and popular culture (including pop & rock music, poetry,...), and not further listed here: none of these retakes of the Salome character and/or the dance of the seven veils theme led to new insights regarding, or a new appreciation of, the Salome character.

This strikes me as being too "meta" for the article space. It essentially dismisses entire categories of unspecified allusions to Salome and her dance as uninsightful, which strikes me as being rather WP:POV, and offers excuses as to why they are not discussed in the article. I suspect that many of these allusions should instead be removed to a new page (Salome in contemporary culture?) if they are zealously disliked in the main article space. Smerdis of Tlön 18:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

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