Talk:Saint Thomas Christians
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[edit] Namboothiri Brahmins converted?
I would like to get clarification on a point raised in this article: that St. Thomas had converted Namboothiri Brahmins to become Christians.
The Namboothiris had a strong sense of superiority over other castes, highlighting their position as the highest order of brahmins in India. Namboothiris used to practice Aitha or pollution. Not only lower castes, but even higher castes were not allowed inside Namboothiri houses. Migrant Brahmins like Iyers, Saraswat Brahmins are also considered lower in status because of their non-priestly occupations in Kerala. Non-Hindus were also considered to be of lower social status by the Namboothiris in ancient times. Namboothiris enjoyed their status as the highest caste, and it is unlikely that they would convert to a new foreign religion (in 52 A.D.), thus compromising their social status. Furthermore, a conversion by Namboothiris would herald a larger conversion by other castes to Christianity, since the Namboothiris were thought to be the spiritualy gifted and taught religion to the masses of Kerala. A conversion of this scale was not recorded in the 1st Century AD.
Rather, it is most likely that St. Thomas had converted other lower caste Hindus who where seeking to escape the difficulties associated with the caste system in India, as was the case in more recent times. Is there in fact any evidence that those who initially converted to St. Thomas Christianity were Namboothiris? 220.238.203.105 01:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Despite centuries of persecution, Brahmins were at the forefront of Hinduisms defence against Islam and Christianity. Any conversion of Brahmins to other religions has traditionally been at the point of a sword and after severe persecution. WHy would a whole group voluntarily convert to a rival religion?
This is an interesting question. The studies done on Namboothiri families of Kerala clearly illustrates that none of the present day Namboothiries can trace their lineage beyond the sixth century A.D. Major religion of Kerala was Buddhism during the period of Thomas. If we assume that Vedic religion ever was present in Kerala, somehow they lost their religious identiy by the first century. We have to explain this lack of presence of Vedic Brahmins in Kerala till the sixth century AD. The only way we can resolve this issue is the suggestion that the small Vedic community that were in Kerala were converted to Christianity as a whole. Otherwise we will have to assume that there never were Namboothiries - Vedic Brahmins - in Kerala until the sixth century. The fallacy arises from the assumption that Namboothiries were a high class people by the first century A.D. They were probably a minority group under Buddhist or Jain Kings. They came to be King makers only after the sixth century A.D.
Thomas never came to India. Even Pope had told this recently. It is a major hoax of the church to do conversions. His body is in Europe and no person can have 2 skeletons. And Namboodiris were not in Kerala till around 10-11 century (according to Namoodiri authority EMS). So the question of Namboodoris getting converted is just to cover the inferiority complex of the converted souls (all were from low castes like harijans etc). Lastly Christians converted from low castes like Pulayas, ezhavas due to caste discriminations which existed then. And culture wise, Christians closely follow Hindu traditions. Even the festivals , marriage functions, dances etc all are plagiarized well from Hinduism. In US , you could even see christians trying to plagiarize Kathakali (a temple art), Bharath-natyam which seems pretty wierd. Maybe they want to differentiate themselves among the white christians!
Maybe, and maybe thats the real reason I lite fireworks for divali. But Divali isn't celebrated in Kerala, so is that to differentiate myself from other Keralites in addition to differentiating from white christians. In todays world where village kids in Kerala grow up on a diet of Punjabi songs the argument of classifying Katakali as a strictly temple art doesn't hold any water. These are just divisive arguments to augument ones superiority complexes or to assuage some hidden inferiority complex.
I have removed the statements about St Thomas Christians as having been of Nambuthri descent, since the claims have not been verified and seem to be very contradictory. Personally, I find it as being an example of a religious denomination trying to find superiority amongst their fellow people, based on contradictory facts (since Nambuthris arrived at least two centuries after the arrival of St Thomas- who arrived in 52 AD). It is true that the majority of Christians were from backward caste communities who converted to escape caste discrimination (although I have also heard of dispriveleged upper caste members who converted). But why argue about "Hindu" and "Christian" things, in Kerala many practices have mixed. Kathakali is for everyone, so is Bharathanatyam, just as Christmas and Valentines day is becoming widespread as well.Kshatriya Grandmaster 22:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Thomasine Church; a proper name
There was an article here which listed the actual Thomasine Church. That is this church's proper name but Wiki-folk have seen fit to use it as a blanket term. That is improper to say the least. This catagory should be listed as the Schools of St. Thomas because that is what theologians, biblical historians and biblical archeaologists like Finkelstein, Silberman, Pagels, Miller, and Funk use. They are well respected scholars and not prone to religious ideologies. If this doesn't suffice use Churches and Schools of St. Thomas. --69.19.14.18 19:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
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I have moved the following to this page, since it actually only refers to a single "Free Catholic" St. Thomas group and is misleadingly general.
In 1987 an "ecumenical" presbytery was created in America, which gave birth to the Eparchy of Saint Thomas of India in Absentia and the Servants of the Holy Cross, a reference to the ancient Marthomite Cross. With renewed interest coming from North America and Europe, several other new jurisdictions were created, including the transfer of the Indian-Portuguese Rite in 1991 to the United States under +Mar Isagelos, Catholicos of the St. Thomas Christians in America.
[edit] the external links section needs fixing
Can somebody who knows about the issues referred to in the external links section fix the page. ~Vinodmp 20 June, 2004
- Here are the contents moved from the article. Perhaps it can be moved to Saint Thomas Christian Church. Jay 14:05, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) :
- Start
- The Saint Thomas Christian Church (aka The Holy Aposolic Evangelical Orthodox Mar Thoma Nazarani Church of the East & Abroad) exists in India, Syria, Israel, Nepal, Burma, Thailand, Portugal, Europe, Southern Russia and in North and South America. The Patriarchal See is in the United States of America. Our Apostolic Succession is from Catholicos-Patriarch of the East, H.H. Mar +Binyamin Shimun (1890). Later we received Apostolic Succession from the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch H.H. Mar Yusef Emmanuel II Thoma and H.E. Mar +Timotheos Villatte (1921). We are Assyrian Church of the East in Faith and Portuguese-Malakaran in Practice..though we have diversity in Liturgical Rites. Our Catholicos-Patriarch is H.H. Mar +Isagelos Michai (Portuguese Indian), who resides presently in the United States of America...much like the Church of the East's Patriarch H.H. Mar +Dinkha resides in Chicago, Ill. USA. We do call our Patriarchate the Holy See of Mar +Thoma & Mar +Ehodah haTzidaq (St. James the Just). I.E. The Holy See of Jerusalem.
- We are not West Syrian Orthodox (Jacobites), nor are we in communion with any Monophysite Communion. We accept the First two Councils, the Christiology of Chalcedon and the Christiological Concord between the Pope, Patriarch of the Catholic Chaldeans and the Catholicos Patriarch of the East etsablished in the mid 90s. We esteem St. John Nestorios as a Martyr for the True Faith..which was validated at Chalcedon. We view his expulsion and the Ephesian Council as a kangaroo court which falsified Nestorios' true beliefs. We are Nestorians in this sense only..not in the sense Jacobites and Eastern Orthodox claim us to be.
- H.G. Mar +Kenat'el W. Huffman DM
- Abuna Qasha & Bishop of the Pacific Northwest (AEOC)
- www.aeoc.org/diocese/cnc
- www.jicb.org
- www.aeoc.org
- End
-
- The key consideration here is, as always, when looking at some small Christian group that one has never heard of but which calls itself "Catholic" or "Orthodox" is to look for one name: "Vilatte". Vilatte was an Old Catholic hierarch (originally a Roman Catholic studying for Holy Orders) who wandered around the USA and Canada from roughly 1880-1920 and ordained a large number of men to Episcopal rank with no authorization from his own or any other synod to do so. In 1925, he returned to Roman Catholicism and made a formal repentance and repudiation of all the ordinations he had performed. Any group that comes from his activities is most accurately called "Vilattist", as there is nothing else that unifies them. It's a good rule of thumb that any group that has found full recognition from an older-than-1900 organization will drop the Vilatte association like a hot rock. - 68.78.3.53
But what exactly do St Thom. C. believe? How does it match or differ from other branches of the religion?
Does it have any sort of differences due to its great antiquity that have been lost in more western christianity? FT2 02:30, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] merge?
I'm by no means an expert, but I'd think, that Nasrani should either be merged with Saint Thomas Christians or with Knanaya. --Pjacobi 23:17, 2005 May 11 (UTC)
Nasrani as an Ethnic community
You stated that the pages Nasrani, Saint Thomas Christians or Knanaya should be merged.
No, it would be erroneous to do that. The article Saint Thomas Christians deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as a religious group and seeks to describe its religious denominations and other related aspects. While the article Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. (infact see the category in which the article Nasrani is listed at the end of that article).
In the same way that there is a significant difference between Jew and Judaism, there is a difference between Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians. Jew deals with the entire ethnic community of the people of Jewish heritage and descent, or those people born of a Jewish mother. But Judaism is the religion followed by the ethnic community of Jewish people. The two concepts do highly overlap and are related but nevertheless they are independent in basic aspects and is treated as different.
In like manner, the nasranis is an ethnic community and in that sense a single community. However the ethnic community has various denominations as a result of the portuguese persecution. As an ethnic community they refer to themselves as Nasranis refering to the common cultural heritage and cultural tradition. However as a religious group they refer to themselves as the Mar Thoma Khristianis or in english as Saint Thomas Christians refering to the various and diverse [[[denomination]]s between them in terms of their religious tradition, despite a common ancestory of being the descendants of the early Mar Thoma church or Saint Thomas tradition of christianity.
The Knanaya people on the other hand is another denomination within the Mar Thoma church also called as (Mar Thoma khristiani) meaning Saint Thomas Christians. However they are a distinct community within the Nasrani ethnic group. Because of their long endogamous tradition.
This aspect is already written in the first paragraph of both the articles. Please read them carefully. Else this article would have been merged long back. The article Nasrani deals with the traditions of the nasrani community as an ethnic people and their present life (which has to be expanded. Robin klein 04:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Namboothiri Brahmins converted?
I would like to get clarification on a point raised in this article: "that St. Thomas had converted Namboothiri Brahmins to become Christians".
The Namboothiris had a strong sense of superiority over other castes, highlighting their position as the highest order of brahmins in India. Namboothiris used to practice Aitha or pollution. Not only lower castes, but even higher castes were not allowed inside Namboothiri houses. Migrant Brahmins like Iyers, Saraswat Brahmins are also considered lower in status because of their non-priestly occupations in Kerala. Non-Hindus were also considered to be of lower social status by the Namboothiris in ancient times. Namboothiris enjoyed their status as the highest caste, and it is unlikely that they would convert to a new foreign religion (in 52 A.D.), thus compromising their social status. Furthermore, a conversion by Namboothiris would herald a larger conversion by other castes to Christianity, since the Namboothiris were thought to be the spiritualy gifted and taught religion to the masses of Kerala. A conversion of this scale was not recorded in the 1st Century AD.
Rather, it is most likely that St. Thomas had converted other lower caste Hindus who where seeking to escape the difficulties associated with the caste system in India, as was the case in more recent times. Is there in fact any evidence that those who initially converted to St. Thomas Christianity were Namboothiris? 220.238.203.105 01:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Aneesh Thottackad
What is it and why does 202.83.42.200 keep sticking it in?
Mikereichold 07:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- It is probably the editor's name or something, and he's doing it because it's fun. His fun won't last, don't worry. -Splashtalk 07:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Redundant Link
under Nasrani religious jurisdictions, there is a link to "Thomasine Church", which redirects to this very page.
[edit] Two Defunct Links
I'm not sure if these are the same links but I've put comments by them to mark them out. Secos5 22:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
