Talk:Sacrament

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Content moved to Catholic sacraments; we need a general articles on sacraments here.

I took a very rough stab at this simply to have some general discussion here instead of the above comment. Not a bad idea to separate them, I suppose. Wesley

This looks pretty good, and I think it is necessary to have this, since non-Catholics use the term in such a different (symbolizing) way - I would add matter to action in the initial definition, because that's where Orthodox and Catholic theology go - in the Catholoic definition there has to be res ("thing") to have sacramenta -- the holy oil, the blessed water, the bread and wine, and the bodies of the people (in marriage). I've never quite understood what the res in confession is, in fact. --MichaelTinkler

Contents

[edit] Orthodox sacramental theology

Would a paragraph trying to explain triune Orthodoxy sacramental theology be appropriate ? I mean, discussing how the sacraments may be divided as to whether they flow from eucharistic grace, baptismal grace, or .. um .. chrismatic grace ?

I'm not familiar with these sorts of divisions... still only been Orthodox a few years, and have lots left to learn. I remember that John Wesley talked about different types of grace, so perhaps this idea would apply to more than just Orthodoxy? Wesley 16:54, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Catholics also practice foot-washing, but do not enumerate it on the list of seven sacraments. Does Catholicism hold that the foot-washing rite has some supernatural effect? And what about the Ash Wednesday rite? Michael Hardy 20:13, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Two questions in one:
  • a) Foot-washing is done in Maudy Thursday as a significant way to show that the Priest/Bishop is a servant as Christ was. It can only have a supernatural effect as any other liturgical act (say, a simple blessing, or blessing the meals, or...) though its importance is great as a symbol. However, it is not meant to have any effect on those whose feet are washed.
  • b) Ash in Ash Wednesday is similar (now the receiver is properly the receiver of the ashes). It is a showing of penance, and as such it shows the receiver's will to approach God. But there is no divine guarantee that it gives grace.
The matter is difficult. In practical terms, the Church (and hence each Christian) could live without Ash and without foot-washing, but it cannot live without the Sacraments, more or less. Also, the Seven sacraments come by Apostolic Tradition while the others are "newer". One could boldly say that God has committed himself to give grace through the Sacraments: i.e. if I properly receive a Sacrament, I receive the grace.
As you know, the above does not imply He cannot give it by other means. You are a Mathematician as well.
In any case, I wanted to say I like the new first sentence very much. Pfortuny 21:54, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Incidentally, I believe the Orthodox also practice foot washing on Holy Thursday, much as you describe it above. As you said, God can bless us in many many ways, but certain sacraments are (nearly?) essential. Wesley 16:54, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wider use of sacrament

Are we sure sacrament should only refer to Christian rites? I was coming here to see if there was anything about the use of marijuana as a sacrament in the Rastafarian religion. Maybe Sacrament should be desimbiguated, and this aricle made into Sacrament (Christianity) and I could create a Sacrament (Rastafari) article. --SqueakBox 02:51, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Response: Like, go for it, dude. --Midnite Critic 6 July 2005 20:55 (UTC)

To do? —Viriditas | Talk 10:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Also the use of Ayahuasca in the União do Vegetal is an example of sacraments used in other religions. __meco 17:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dominical sacraments

I've just created a redlink for dominical sacrament in this article and in article George Wishart. I have no idea whether there's enough to say about the topic to make a full-fledged article; if you think there is, please make an article there. If you're sure there's not, please make a redirect and do whatever fixing needs to be done in whatever target you pick (e.g., if you redirect Dominical sacrament to Sacrament, remember to bold the term, mention it near the top of the page, and remove the link from Sacrament to Dominical sacrament). Thanks. --Quuxplusone 20:24, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Intro

It seems a bit strange to begin with the protestant view of sacraments (the exception) and then move on to the rule. It's as bizarre as if the entry for cheese began "some people think cheese is soft, everyone else believes cheese is a dairy product made from milk". The overwhelming majority of xtians fall in to the "Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, the Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Christians, members of the Anglican, United Methodist, and Old Catholic traditions, the Independent Catholic Churches and Lutherans" category so it just seems bizarre to begin with the "among many protestants" line.

I would make the swap myself but I find wikipedians intimidating.

Well, most of us are actually pretty nice guys/girls. I am going to review the article now, it's history, etc., and then may proceed to make the change you suggest. Also, please, in the future, sign your entries on talk pages. If you don't have an account/user i.d., it will take about one minute to set one up. --Midnite Critic 22:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, review done. The very first sentence gives the traditional view held by the Christians you mention; then, the second sentence contrasts this with the view held by "many Protestants." THEN, we return to a more amplified statement regarding the first sentence. Thus, IMH (Oriental Orthodox) opinion, the first three paragraphs are quite balanced. --Midnite Critic 22:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A better definition

I have heard/read on several occasions that a sacrament is a ritual that uses the physical world to reveal something about the spiritual world. I can't lay my hands on a source for that at the moment. I have just always had that in my head as the generally accepted definition. After reading this article and the discussion, it seems like a very good definition to use both because it is more encompassing than the current one--it would even include the marijuana guy's use. Also, this is a general intro to a somewhat complicated subject. IMHO, the current first line does not state something understandable to someone who is not already familiar with theological terminology. Like the earlier poster, I am also too chicken to make the change, especially since there's a discussion going on. DaniU 20:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] External links

I removed the following per my understanding of WP:EL, they appear to be commentaries rather than authorities.

Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 21:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why aren't the common Catholic names used if this is a Catholic list?

  • Roman Catholicism is used for the Roman Catholic Church.
  • The Eucharist is used for Holy Eucharist
  • Catholic Marriage is used for Matrimony
  • The Sacrament of Order is used for Holy Orders patsw 03:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marriage came later.

I think the following statement in the article is incorrect:

Generally, there are seven sacramental rites used since apostolic times in the Church, though not all of them are accepted as such by all groups. These are: Baptism, Chrismation (or Confirmation), the Eucharist (Communion), The Sacrament of Order (Ordination), Reconciliation of a Penitent, Anointing of the Sick, and Matrimony.

I believe marriage only became a sacrament sometime during the Middle Ages.--24.52.254.62 03:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maximum of 6 in a lifetime

I removed the claim about it only being possible to receive 6 of the sacraments in a lifetime, along with the subsequent conjectured (but presented as factual) story about Holy Orders being invented after the institution of priestly celibacy in order to compensate for the denial of one of the sacraments to the clergy.

I doubt many people share the "maximum of 6" misperception; but if it's widespread, perhaps the article should actually include a section debunking it. Ways to receive both Orders and Marriage in a lifetime, of course, abound:

--being widowed, then ordained a priest

--being ordained a priest, then receiving permission to forgo the priestly duties and marry

--marrying, then being ordained a deacon in the modern Latin Church

--marrying, then being ordained a priest in an Eastern Church (or an Orthodox Church; this article isn't just about Catholicism, after all, and even if it were Catholics still recognize Orthodox sacraments to be the very same as theirs)

While we're at it, we should even include "marrying, then receiving permission to be ordained a priest in the Latin Church." Such permission could certainly be given with no problem; there's just a (centuries-old) policy of not doing so.

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