Talk:Sabiha Gökçen

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sabiha Gökçen article.
WikiProject Turkey This article is part of WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WPMILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] Armenian

I read in another part that she's of Armenian decent. Shouldn't this be added? --83.134.110.242 12:35, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

No need to write it because it's not sure. And it doesn't change anything about her race.

I have an interview script in which Sabiha Gokcen is claimed to be Armenian and I have another source in which the author proves the inaccurateness of the claims in the interview. When I have time, I will translate both and put them into discussion page, however since we do not know which one is true I propose not to add anything into the article regarding her ethnical background. -Cansın 3.00, 30 May 2005



Zeitungsdossiers in der Türkei

[edit] Armenian claim

these Armenian claims are baseless because official claims show her birth place as Bursa. Even herself says she is the daughter of the Turkish officer. If you cant count the biggest newspaper in Turkey as a source, we also should have a problem about the neutraltity of the smaller Armenian claims. You dont have a right to count what you want to believe and Not what is right. this is the version that should be there:

Sabiha Gökçen (March 21, 1913, Bursa - March 22, 2001, Ankara) was the first Turkish female aviator and the first female combat pilot of the world. She was one of the eight adoptive children of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Some modern sources claim that she was of Armenian origin (like the claim of Armenian Agop Newspaper published in Turkish newspaper Hurriyet from 21. Feb 2004), but this is disputed by a lot of official sources including herself who claims she was the daughter of the head clerk Hafız Mustafa İzzet who was exiled to Bursa by Sultan Abdulhamid II. The official documents testify her claims.[1],

85.101.57.181 05:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Of course "offical claims" aren't going to say she was Armenian. How about this source? It's from the U.S. Dept. of State. And I quote:
In February, the Hurriyet newspaper's publication of a report that Sabiha Gokcen--an adopted daughter of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who was the country's first female pilot--was of Armenian descent drew a number of racist public statements. The Turkish General Staff issued a statement criticizing the reports on Gokcen's Armenian ancestry as "a claim that abuses national values and feelings" while the Turkish Air Association called the report "an insult" to Gokcen and to Ataturk.
—Khoikhoi 05:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
again it gives a reference to "unneutral" hurriyet newspaper so i guess you are going to have to remove that. Also if you count hurriyet, you have to give the whole story not just cut one part that you like of it. This is meaningless since she herself states she was not an armenian and the article in Hurriyet is writing that too along with official records. 85.101.57.181 05:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, hurriyet has been removed. Anything else you're not happy with? The fact is that the Armenian claims are notable, and deserve to be mentioned regardless whether it's true or not. After all, "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". —Khoikhoi 05:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
the thing is, the claims insist that she wasnt born in Bursa, but she says she was and the official records show her parents. Even her sister made an announcement blaming the armenian claims,yet i cannot put them here coz you dont count a turkish newspaper but an armenia newspaper called Agos? all these conspiracies couldnt be done by the armenian Agos newspaper when she was alive and they say they didnt do it "not to offend her". They also had said she was against Ataturk and stuff(lol), people talk specially if you are in a country like Turkey but you have to base it with solid evidence. 85.101.57.181 05:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I see what you mean, that's why we're not basing the article off the claims, but just stating what they are. Anyways, how do you know that the sources I provided (BBC & US Dept. of State) get it from Agos? Heh, I'm not sure why they'd say she was against Atatürk—I have to get some sleep. —Khoikhoi 06:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
ok ive found her own autobiography where she states she is the daughter of Bursa Provincial head clerk Hafız Mustafa İzzet Bey and Hayriye Hanım. If we are going to give both sides we should give that too. Metb82 08:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You are completely right. Her parents were Mustafa İzzet Bey and Hayriye Hanım. The baseless claim that she is armenian is made by an armenian nationalist Hrant Dink who is known for making far fetched statements. There is no proof for it whatsoever. Records show she was born in Bursa to Mustafa İzzet Bey and Hayriye Hanım. She herself verified it several times over. It is just another cheap attempt by some people to claim a famous person as their own

[edit] citation needed

There is a paragraph which lacks of references. I searched for sources but could not find any reliable one. Maybe better to remove this part. E104421 08:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hans-Lukas Kieser

I searched for the following reference given in the article: "Dr.Hans-Lukas Kieser (Swiss): Verlierer der postosmanischen Ordnung (written in:"Enteignet, Vertrieben, Ermordet. Beiträge zur Genozidforschung", Chronos Verlag 2004 Zürich, ISBN 3-0340-0642-X) Dr.Hans-Lukas Kieser writes about Sabiha Gökçens Armenian origin and others of her", but could not find any relation with Sabiha Gokcen [[2]]. Is there anyone to be sure about the validity of the reference? or is this the reference given in Agos? or not? E104421 23:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll do some research on this and try to get back to you. There's a pretty interesting discussion about her ethnicity at the German Wikipedia (I believe they mention Kieser). You can try translating it through AltaVista if you want. Khoikhoi 00:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Please delete the reference number 4, Hans-Lukas Kiesers book is not trustworthy and was also deleted in the german wikipedia. --134.155.99.41 11:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
How is it not trustworthy? Khoikhoi 06:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../s/a/b/Talk%7ESabiha_G%C3%B6k%C3%A7en_4572.html"