Talk:Súmate

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Contents 1 POV 2 WP:BLP 3 El Nacional List 4 Some material seems unrelated to subject 5 Material to update 6 POV 7 Opinions needed 8 Impartial NGO 9 Rewriting the constitution?

[edit] POV

Controversy with the carmona decree and MCM is not referenced or the exit poll controversy, also the "not a majority of the electorate" has to be referenced if it is official Sumate policy. Flanker 18:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Exit poll controversy can be easily added, if you feel it belongs here, although it amounts to a cut and paste from other articles - please clarify which parts of that discussion you believe belong here, to understand what you want added. Since the issue is discussed in other articles, maybe you can just add what you think is needed? For those who don't know, (I assume?) with MCM you are referring to Maria Corina Machado (please verify?). If so, maybe you want to add the wording you feel is needed for NPOV? I am not understanding all of your comments: by "majority of the electorate", I assume you are referring to the discussion on the Chavez talk page about whether to include abstention figures in vote tallies? Not following what you mean about this being official Sumate policy. Please clarify, so items can be addressed. Just a note of appreciation for how friendly the discussion has been on the Chavez page: POV was first raised on Talk:Hugo Chávez on 31 March [1] and POV tag was added six weeks later, when POV was not addressed [2], and after several anon reverts. I'm sure we could have addressed these issues here without a POV tag :-) Sandy 20:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If I breached protocol I apologize, I guess I was too bold :). The controversy has to be expanded the Penn exit poll used Sumate field workers, it was also ilegally released early creating both a sense of jubilation and ironically might have even cost them. Also MCM (yes her) was one of the signatories of the infamous carmonazo [3] [4]As for the rest I should have put a citation was needed.

OK, no problem :-)

1. I added something about the PBS exit polls, which is just cut and paste from multiple places on Wiki now. I'm not sure how it's relevant to the Sumate article (as opposed to the many other places it's been mentioned), but it has been added.

2. On the MCM/Carmona issue, I am loathe to add anything with Venanalysis as a reference. You deleted a reference on the Chavez article, indicating that "Vcrisis is not a primary source but a blog". If VCrisis references are to be deleted, than there are many dubious references in the main Hugo Chávez article. I'm wondering how you distinguish an organization like VenAnalysis from VCrisis, and whether you have a more valid source for the same info about MCM. I don't deny the fact (it was certainly logical that she would/should sign that document, considering her position in Venezuela), just want a better source to quote so as not to introduce biased sources. If I have to add a VenAnalysis source, then I'll also have to object that the article is POV, and we'll never get the tag removed :-) Since you want this info added, do you have a reliable source? Also, since it is entirely logical that she would/should sign that document, I'm really unclear on exactly what you want added, and why you find it controversial, so again, it might be better that you add your own words.

Well, pursuant to our conversation about sources, I held my nose and added the VenAnalysis info, although I still don't see why it's controversial that she would attend a Presidential swearing-in, considering the role played by Súmate in the marches. I wouldn't expect this information to be found on a more reliable source, as it was hardly newsworthy. Removing the POV tag, as I've addressed all 3 issues you raised. Sandy 02:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

3. On the citation needed that you added, indicating that a reference is needed for more abstention than votes in his favor, I've added the same infoboxes used in the main article. Sandy 00:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you might have prejudice against venanalysis ;) They did not write that piece it was these guys [5] just that they don't have it anymore and venanalysis archived it. I will see if I find another source but I am mostly looking for sources for Hugo Chavez and am a bit tired too.Flanker 02:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Not to worry -- I'll also look for something when I can. Or, I'll focus on adding something about MCM's virtues, for balance :-) Sandy 02:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually like it as it is thanks, as for the Carmonazo and MCM you might want to look at the page I started The Carmona Decree.Flanker 18:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, SF, glad that's settled, since I wasn't sure what the problem was. Thanks for letting me know about your new article, but I'm not sure I'm willing to invest any more time in any new articles, now that I'm exposed to a second "dicatorship" in my lifetime.  :-)) Sandy 19:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In Treason and conspiracy charges part

You need to consider that Chavez received 2.000.000 Dollars from the spanish Bilvao-Biscaya Bank for the same purpouse.

infragon

The article is not necesserally about Hugo Chavez, however there are differences the Bank link was denied by Chavez (don't believe him on this) second the campaign finances were managed by Miquilena, third they came from comercial institutions, meaning that it is at worst corruption. Sumate admits recieving NED money, but most importantly it came from a foreign government that is quite hostile. A correct equivalence was Chavez recieving money from Fidel or an intermidiary of Fidel.Flanker 19:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but this article is totally political spin! Examples:

"A Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates (PSB) exit poll predicted that Chávez would lose by 20%, whereas the election results showed him to have won by 20%. Schoen commented, "I think it was a massive fraud".[6] PSB used Súmate personnel as fieldworkers; according to IndyMedia, its results contradicted five other opposition exit polls. Publication or broadcast of exit polls was banned by electoral authorities, but results of the PSB poll went out to media outlets and opposition offices several hours before polls closed.[7]"

Ok: The PSB poll is just ridicoulus rubish, why to cite Schoen, he is just a very unintersting and unimportant guy... but now the real however diletantic manipulation: "...according to IndyMedia..." hello? According to all serious Newssources of the world the PSB-polls contradicted all the other opposition, governmental and third parties polls.

Also the talks about "only 35% of the electorate" or "more people absense then..": In a lot of countries, including such famous democracies as Switzerland, Austria, United States, Germany, UK, Austria etc. the turnout is lower and/or the Head of Goverment got far, far less then 35% of the electorate (In a lot of country they even got less than 35% of the votes cast!). The only is therefore totally misleading, its actually even a quite High number.

More concerning: This article pretends to be about a "volunteer civil association" but it only talks about politics in Venezuela, indicating (without serious proofs, actually) frauds, repression etc. by the government. The place to write about election frauds or Repression is in the respective articles, not in the organisations lemma. Obviously this entry is just abused to promote the political agenda of Sumate or third persons. --Fairfis 00:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The article is obviously biased in its tone. I have no particular affection for any of the main players in Venezuela, but there is more to this organisation than a noble pursuit of citizen participation.

The recent election had a turnout over 61%. Granted it would be nice if more people turned out, but its about the same as the UK and a damn sight higher than in the USA.

Its quite obvious that Sumate are really concerned with increasing the ant-Chavez vote. the problem in Venezuela is that the opposition are disorganised and incompetent. If they spent more time developing a political programme that is coherent, and produced credible candidates they would do better.

Indeed, having watched the behaviour of some of their candidates after the recall referendum, I would say that it might be a start to pick people who who are not certifiable.

A new opposition, which is not constituted from scary right-wing nutters, but is rooted in democracy and social justice is the only way to oppose Chavez effectively. the millions who vote for him do so because they want running water, medecine and education for their children. The opposition give the clear impression that they are only concerned with getting lots more money for people like them.

I utterly oppose any effort to repress the activities of Sumate as long as they are not involved in undermining the legally constituted elected government. the government must protect the safety and freedom of speech of these people. But Sumate should be honest, they want more people to vote because they believe it will undermine Chavez, would they be so interested in voter turn-out if it meant bigger majorities for Chavez?

Unfortunately a lot of people in Venezuela believe in democracy, but only if the result is the one they want. The opposition should re-invent itself, provide tough but constructive oppostion, get rid of the hysterical loonies and provide the people with a credible alternative to Chavez that does not involve doing what the White House tells it to. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PrivateWiddle (talk • contribs) 17:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] WP:BLP

"Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from biographies of living persons and their talk pages, and may do so without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule. This principle also applies to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia" [[6]]JRSP 07:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Until you specify which material you're concerned about, tag is removed. (By the way, your link above to WP:BLP isn't working.) Sandy 13:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

See [[7]], [[8]],[[9]].

Also remember that the banner is a reminder, the policy applies even if the banner is removed. JRSP 14:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

All of the material you pointed out (above) is sourced. Further, this article is not a biography of a living person. You might make it a stretch to say it's a biography of Plaz or Machado, in which case, Flanker's dubious and biased sources criticizing Machado need to be removed. Thanks for reminding me. But, since this article is NOT a bio, the tag doesn't need to be in place at the top of the article, unless Flanker continues to add poorly-sourced criticism of Machado. Sandy 15:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

As pointed out above, "This principle also applies to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia". The policy protects the reputation of any living person, including of course, Ms Machado and Mr Plaz. Although the article is not a bio, the principle is valid anywhere in the wikipedia, including talk pages JRSP 15:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I concur, and will be on the lookout for further poorly-sourced allegations against either. However, since *this* article is not a bio, it doesn't warrant the tag at the top. Sandy 15:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the tag should stay, considering the article, until recently, contained poorly sourced statements about a living person and in effect also protects Sumate's staff against unsupported allegations.JRSP 15:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] El Nacional List

JRSP, I'll wait a bit for you to provide a report that goes along with this list; if you don't have a media report which provides context for the list, I'll remove the sentence. Presenting a list, with no context, is certainly bordering on violating WP:BLP, as there is no explanation or journalistic report whatsoever attached to these allegations. Thanks Sandy 13:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Added analitica link, that is two opposition WP:RS corroborating her signature of the decree.Flanker 19:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some material seems unrelated to subject

I split a paragraph in order to highlight some material whose relation with Sumate is not clear. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JRSP (talk • contribs).

[edit] Material to update

• NGO Súmate has not received foreign currency. El Universal (9 August 2006).

• Súmate: Foreign contributions amount to 6 percent of funds. El Universal (8 August 2006).

• National Assembly to charge NGO Súmate with high treason. El Universal (9 August 2006).

[edit] POV

The sections on "History" and "Recall" read like anti-Chavez polemics rather than an NPOV encyclopedia. Much of the information is about the recall itself, rather than Sumate or the role of Sumate within these events. AndrewRT - Talk 23:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand AndrewRT concerns. The History section only mentions Súmate in a one line paragraph after a lengthy introduccion. The recall ref seccion has similar problems. This seccions must be more focused on the subject of the article JRSP 08:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Still vague. History is for context: what other history do you want to include? What other history of Sumate do you suggest there might be that is not told? This looks like an objection for the sake of objection. Please define some specific and actionable problems that can be addressed, in both sections. SuperFlanker provided a list above: every item on that list was met. Neither you nor AndrewRT have specificed a single issue that can be acted on, other than a very vague objection that you don't like the way it reads. The facts are what they are: what else do you want them to say? Sandy 10:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Too much context for too little Súmate. These sections are well covered in other articles. Perhaps a brief summary and some links would be better than the full text. The subject of the article looks dwarfed in the present version JRSP 18:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That is still not an actionable POV objection. So, you want more writing about Sumate, so it won't be dwarfed next to the history, although the article makes no sense without the context of the history. Allrighty then. Sandy 20:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Summary and links to avoid the context overwhelming Súmate. I think this is more important than adding more about Súmate JRSP 20:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I've shown you the kind of think I meant with the recall section. Just to emphasise, there is a detailed article about the recall elsewhere. This article only needs to summarise the main points from that article, and to bring out the role of Sumate in that referendum. Anything else is superfluous. AndrewRT - Talk 21:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I also think the article may lead readers into thinking that Súmate is an opposition group and not an impartial NGO JRSP 21:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

JRSP, I will attempt to fix that. AndrewRT, I hope you have read the talk page and realize that you deleted content that another editor insisted be added in order to remove his POV tag. Sandy 21:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The photo for instance. Was Súmate organizing opposition marches? JRSP 22:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Marches were about the denials of the recall (among other things), which specifically implicated Sumate as having collected invalid signatures. Sumate organized the recall. Any good reason not to have photos in an article? I hope someone sees the irony in this: SuperFlanker insists on adding content or the article is POV; you and AndrewRT insist on taking out the same content, or it's POV. Why such a need to suppress information, and for example, the pictures of the magnitude of the marches in support of Sumate's work? Sandy 22:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This was not a pro-RR march, but a pro-Sí march. The image filename is anti-chavez.jpg JRSP 22:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The person who uploaded the file specifically added the following: (One of many anti Hugo Chávez marches in Caracas, Venezuela. This protest was in favor of the 2004 recall referendum. The photographer is Carlos Granier-Phelps. He was contacted directly at fotos@carlanga.com for permission. Additional pho) Are you saying the person who uploaded the photo was not telling the truth? Do you not recall these events, at any rate? Sandy 22:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't lie. What's the issue with the picture? Spaceriqui 04:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure this was not the closing act of the "si" just a few days before the RR. Perhaps the date of the picture would help JRSP 10:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it is part of the Sí march, actually. It was sent to me just a few days before the RR, and if you look at the picture below, you can see the stage and the banners around it. I am still not clear on the distinction between a pro-RR and a pro-Sí march you are trying to draw, and how that relates to the article. Maybe you could elaborate. Spaceriqui 12:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Because Súmate is not supposed to promote the "Sí" option as they define themselves as an impartial NGO. Promoting the RR is fine for Súmate but not siding with one of the options JRSP 13:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I still don't understand the distinction you're making. Whether they "promoted" it or not, the referendum in general was held because of Súmate's efforts. What is the concern? Sandy 14:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is about Súmate and it should portray them as an impartial organization. Otherwise it could mislead readers into thinking Súmate is an anti-Chávez organization. JRSP 14:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

So, why don't we add a photo of the pro-Chávez marches ? Sandy 14:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps an image showing Súmate volunteers helping in the signature collect. Partisan activities favoring "Si" or "No" should be avoided JRSP 14:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I can agree with that. Spaceriqui 14:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. I don't know how to search on images. Do we have one in the Wiki Commons? Sandy 15:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opinions needed

User:SuperFlanker insisted that the article cover the PBS exit poll controversy, and tagged the article as POV without it (see first entry on talk page). User:AndrewRT took out the same information, saying the article was POV with it. We need additional opinions: do we add back in the exit poll information or not? Sandy 14:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

If PBS used Sumate's personnel or volunteers, then it is relevant to subject JRSP 14:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that, to explain it fully, we have to add back in chunks of text that AndrewRT deleted, or else the comments have no context. What to do ? Sandy 15:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

And, SuperFlanker also insisted that the Hausmann/Rigobon data had to be refuted, but AndrewRT took that out, leaving only one side of the story. So, this article is stuck between two editors who each think it's POV for opposite sides of the same coin. I see no reason to have deleted all of the information that satisfied Flanker's concerns about POV. Unless anyone else objects over the next few days, I will add those two items back in, so that another editor won't come along and object that the article is one-sided. Sandy 00:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not a fan of incredibly verbose statemnets specially if they are found elsewhere, I agree with JRSP make it about Sumate not what surrounds Sumate.Flanker 14:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I don't think the article is necessarily POV with this information, just off topic. This article is about Sumate, not the referendum, and should discuss Sumate, not the referendum. Otherwise there is a danger that this article degenerates into a POV fork. AndrewRT - Talk 20:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Flanker insisted that what he calls a "controversy" had to be reflected here, or the article would be POV. Taking out what you call off-topic info results in Flanker calling the article POV. Quite a mystery how one can please both of you, but when in doubt, including info referenced to reliable sources is better than deleting it. I don't think a few extra sentences are overburdening the reader. Sandy 21:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Impartial NGO

I'm baffled! How can an organisation that organised a recall election and then organised a primary to select an opposition presidential candidate possibly be called an impartial NGO? Particularly when they are led by prominent opposition politicians. I don't care what they proclaim themselves to be.

More to the point, if they do claim to be an "impartial" NGO, perhaps there is evidence supporting this which can be published in this article (perhaps under a section on ==Impartiality==?) AndrewRT - Talk 20:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

That's already there. I think you are either misunderstanding or misreading the reliable sources. Very few accuse them of being impartial (notably, Juan Forero and the BBC, who are consistently pro-Chavez in their reporting). What they are in favor of is democracy and transparent electoral processes. Since the electoral process has been so severely compromised in Venezuela, they promote electoral openness and democratic electoral processes, such as primaries and referendums, which are allowed by the constitution even though Chavez does everything in his power to stop them. I hope that clears up your confusion, Sandy 21:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

If they were not an impartial NGO they would have to return tax payer money to NED JRSP 21:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Now, JRSP, you know that's not a valid argument :-) All NGOs receive grants. By the way, hard to imagine such a fuss over a measly $30,000. I can't figure who thinks that piddling amount of money would do anything except fund a seminar or two on voter education, which is what it did do. Sandy 21:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

So strongly in favor of democracy that their founder and leader supported a military coup to overthrow the elected government of Venezuela. 71.203.209.0 21:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a point of view that might be brought into this discussion (though it might not be appropriate for the article). Chavez version of democracy does not include independent powers, his is really an autocratic movement that subscribes to all the state power being under his hands. Recent events very clearly underline that (i.e. the recent declarations from the energy minister, that were later backed by Chavez himself and several of his ministers), but such authoritarian streak has been evident for many years. Súmate, by the simple act of promoting democracy becomes automatically an opposition force. Chavez-speak tends to hide this difference between being pro-democracy and being against-Chavez. Súmate's efforts are what made the referendum possible, without Súmate it would not have happened. All the research that came afterwards that has raised serious doubts about the referendum results are also a consequence of Súmate's actions. Though saying that Súmate is an 'Opposition' force would be the same as saying that blackboxvoting or any of the other electronic voting action groups are 'Democrat Party' forces. Thu Nov 9 22:25 2006 (EST) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.199.141.137 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Rewriting the constitution?

In 1999 a NEW Constitution was approved in a referendum, the 1961 constitution was therefore derogated, the constitution wasn't rewritten, it was changed. --159.90.10.250 17:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)