Talk:Ryugyong Hotel

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Contents 1 No lighting at night 2 Re: Illumination at night 3 Comic 4 single most unsettling structure 5 Images? 6 Film? 7 Sagging? 8 Artist's rendition 9 Flagship project 10 Intro sentence 11 Architect 12 Infobox image

[edit] No lighting at night

The structure is illuminated at night? Really?--The lorax 03:46, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No, it isn't and never has been. However, North Korean books about Pyongyang inevitably include airbrushed "lights" on the building. (They generally airbrush vehicles onto the city streets as well.)  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 13:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Illumination at night

I was in Pyongyang in September and there during 'National Foundation Day' when anything that is going to be lit up at night, is lit up. I had a good view across the city from the Yanggakdo and it definately wasn't lit. Maybe this is a recent change?

Given that the DPRK regime seems to be embarassed by it (photos of it not allowed, removal from maps), illuminating it seems really unlikely. FWIW, I was there for May Day 2005, and again it wasn't lit. ByeByeBaby 22:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comic

Pyongyang (comic) says 5 turning restaurants and 3700 rooms. --Error 04:04, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] single most unsettling structure

Not sure why User:Lotsofissues insists on removing the following. I have no connection with the site in question whatsoever so it is not a "vanity insertion" as asserted. I have seen this statement quoted on many other websites about Ryugyong Hotel including major reputable news sites and I feel it is worth being included. Please can you provide some justification why you feel it is not.

It has been described as "the single most unsettling structure ever erected by the hand of man" [1]

I have probably read every single print English article about this monument to totalitarianism. Some reporters have described the building as ominious but never used such hyperbole. I do not want this article to deteriorate into a cacophony of personal opinion. Only reputable sources. Lotsofissues 10:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I added hopefully a better description; I agree hyperbole and opinion aren't appropriate, but on the other hand, virtually every source I've ever heard describes it as "ominous", "sinister", "unsettling" or otherwise. Personally, I always say that if the Death Star was a hotel, it would look like the Ryugyong. ByeByeBaby 22:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not good to use phrases like It has been described as (see Wikipedia:Weasal words). Better to say something like "Project opponents like Jim Peterson haved described it..." or "Anti-communist observers in the West belittled it as an ominous and sinister example of the collossal waste typical of this Stalinist regime." (but say which observers said so: I just made that up, and sorry to say, I'm not notable enough to be quoted! ;-) --Uncle Ed 18:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images?

I'm just wondering what happened to th images on this page. I know they used to be here, and a Google Images search for the hotel still links to an image which is said to be on this page. -- Jermdeeks 04:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I would guess the images were deleted for lacking either source or copyright information. If you can find images licensed in a way that WP can use them, by all means please upload them. - choster 05:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Added a free-license image. It's not great, but the North Koreans actively discourage the taking of photos of the structure, so I don't know that a lot of better ones are floating around oth there. ByeByeBaby 22:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Film?

"Hollywood has apparently seized upon the general public's reactions to the building (many claim its 75-degree slope and concrete shell make it look sinister) by setting a horror film there. Even though the project—working title A Night in the Hotel—is currently in early stages of pre-production, little is known of the cast or crew or whether or not it will be shot on location." Could whoever added this provide information of what source was used? I couldn't seem to be able to find any article that mentions such... -elynnia-

I seriously doubt this; it's only really well-known to people fascinated with North Korea, and the DPRK would never let an American movie company film a movie like this. I googled for the name, along with Korea, Pyongyang, Ryugyong, Movie and combinations of these, and found nothing. Removed. ByeByeBaby 22:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I

[edit] Sagging?

The basic structure is complete, but it has never been certified as safe for occupancy. As a result, no windows, fixtures or fittings have been installed.

No, the reason is not that it wasn't "certified as safe," which would imply an impartial and apolitical civil service in North Korea that could put a stop to a pet project of Kim Jong Il's. (There have been several other structural collapses in the city including an apartment block on Tongil Street and a Metro tunel.) The reason is almost certainly that North Korea ran out of funds to buy the windows, fixtures, and fittings, all of which would have to be imported. (There is nothing whatsoever of North Korean origin in the Yanggakdo Hotel.)

The building is sagging so badly that it will never open as presently constructed.

I think this is an urban legend based on the asymmetrical design of the hotel; looked at from many angles, it looks like it's leaning over, but it is not. (I have no doubts as to the poor quality of construction, but the sagging seems implausible and not credibly sourced.)

I will rephrase or remove both of these statements. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 13:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Artist's rendition

Do we really need some pic someone whipped up in Photoshop with a lot of clouds? Does it add anything to the article? does it reflect the final look of the building, which may have had, among other things, paint? --Golbez 09:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Response: I did feel it might be interesting to see an image of the hotel lit up by lights, as per the 'airbrushing' reference in the article. To make the image, I used the following for reference:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/skyscraperrot/ryug01.jpg shows the hotel in a similar cloudy, but daytime setting. The 'sunset' image is directly based on this one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/skyscraperrot/ryug03.jpg shows the hotel with a poster out front which suggests that the hotel was going to be finished in a silvery grey coloring. This might even be due to glass paneling all across its facades. The building in the 'sunset' image is basically this one. AniRaptor2001 19:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Upon re-examination (see below for my original take), it seems the Photoshop picture serves no purpose at all (other than possibly thinly-vieled North Korea nationalism, which I'd doubt) since A) there are no lights below the cloudline, thus negating any use the picture may have as an illustration of the airbrushing, and B) the building is still unfinished in the picture, without paint and glass, as mentioned above. The second picture you cite (ryug03) contains a picture of the building in twilight hours, where the lighting makes it impossible to tell if the building was supposed to be grey, black, navy blue, or just glass-panelled from top to bottom - so I find it hard to believe anyone could draw inferences as to what the building was "going" to look like. The Photoshop looks like a concerete husk with some lights on the top, and a cloudy background which borders on the unrealistic.

It is not my intention to sound harsh, but I side with Golbez. --151.200.21.93 22:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be more effective to find an actual airbrushed picture, rather than making an original creation for the sole purpose of illustration. The current picture also bears an uneasy, nearly frightening, resemblance to those "inspiration" calenders. I can imagine the caption:

"PERSEVERANCE.

Remember, if you silence any and all opposition, and work with absolute tunnel vision, you can build magic"

:-D --151.200.21.93 08:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Just thought I'd mention that I thought this was quite amusing. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 12:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

As the one who (may have) mentioned the airbrushing business in the first place, I can scan something in from a North Korean book. I'm not sure to what extent copyright applies to information materials from the DPRK, though... ProhibitOnions ^(T) 21:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it qualify as fair use? I didn't save anything from the time, but I recall quite a lot of magazines and newspapers publishing the photograph of the pyramids that made the cover of the infamous 1982 "retouched" National Geographic. If I'm writing a journalistic paper on photographic retouching, it seems better to include samples of what I'm speaking of, rather than refer people to old, possibly out of print, and possibly expensive magazines, newspapers, etc. --151.200.21.93 22:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Yes, it probably would count as fair use. My little aside there was in reference to the fact that status of international law, including copyright conventions, is often unclear in reference to the DPRK, which is often not a signatory to such things (and which is, for example, the world's biggest forger of $100 bills, suggesting lack of attention to copyright on the part of the North Korean government). ProhibitOnions ^(T) 08:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Back to the left margin. I removed the picture a couple of days ago for all the reasons mentioned above. I'd like to see a rendition of the whole building with glass facade, restaurants, entryways, etc. clearly visible, though I'm not sure it would belong here. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 12:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flagship project

Does anyone know why the project halted? If opened, it would have been a shot in the arm for the regime. Why did they give up?

Lack of money? Structural problems? --Uncle Ed 18:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The first one caused the second one. The cement used was such poor quality that I'm guessing it would have collapsed if they continued. This is just my guess, though. --Golbez 19:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but the structure is complete and it hasn't collapsed, despite 15 years exposure to the elements. The big reason was lack of money, as the facade and other elements would have to be imported and would have cost, at the very least, hundreds of millions of hard-currency dollars (ie, not fake North Korean $100 bills). This for a project that would never have earned any of this money back, as there are very few foreign visitors to Pyongyang, and never will be until the DPRK collapses; the running costs would also have been extremely high. Ultimately that money would have either had to have come from the army or the Kim family cognac fund, neither of which is politically doable, so the hotel was never completed.

Another thing, many DPRK observers assume that the real reason this hotel, and many other prestige projects in Pyongyang, such as Tongil Street, the 1987 metro extension (which contains the most ornate stations), and most notably May Day Stadium and the several single-sport stadiums in west Pyongyang, was the Olympics -- the North Koreans seriously believed they could threaten their way into co-hosting the 1988 Summer Games in Seoul. The South Koreans did in fact offer them a few events as a goodwill gesture, but ultimately this was not enough, and North Korea boycotted the event instead. The 1989 World Festival of Youth and Students was given as a pretext for the construction of all these buildings, but it was political and not very athletic in character, and drew (I think) only 17,000 participants, so it should be obvious what the DPRK had really intended.

Had they got to co-host the Olympics, I think you might have seen a finished Ryugyong Hotel in mid-1988. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 22:32, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro sentence

The first sentence is jumbled--I can't fix it because I can't tell what it's supposed to say. AOB 18:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the article to restore the first sentence. I can see what Ed Poor was getting at by describing it as a "project" but most sources don't do that, and then we have to guess when the "project" began and ended, whereas we know when the thing was built. Furthermore, quite a few buildings in North Korea are thought to be, essentially, empty shells designed to impress, but the only difference here was they didn't have money to cover the structure in glass and finish the restaurants and a couple of floors. (I stayed at the Yanggakdo Hotel a few years ago and couldn't help get the feeling that parts of it were incomplete, even though it was built by a French company.) ProhibitOnions ^(T) 20:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Architect

My wife visited North Korea in 2002, and was told while she was there that the architect who built the Ryugyong Hotel was executed after the hotel was discovered to be unsound. Has anyone else heard this? Are there reports to that effect anywhere in the media? Vidor 11:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox image

I've listed the infobox image on WP:PUI as there doesn't seem to be anything on the website http://www.ryugyonghotel.com/ to indicate that the images are licenced under the GFDL. DWaterson 17:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)