Talk:Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

link title

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878) article.
Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878) is within the scope of the Russian History WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Russian History. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
WikiProject Turkey This article is part of WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WPMILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.
Archive
Archives
  1. Archive 1

Contents

[edit] Massacres Against Turks

WHy are the massacres against Turks in this war completely ignored?

--- In

Bulgaria’s Turks in the 1980s: a minority endangered by VICTOR D. BOJKOV published in Journal of Genocide Research (2004), 6(3), September, 343–369

we read:

Major factors that decreased the Muslim population were the two big wars in the region. The Russo-Turkish War of 1878 and the Balkan Wars of 1912–1913 became important causes of massive mortality and forced migration.7 Of the Muslim population in Bulgaria between 1876 and 1882, it is estimated that 262,000 died and 515,000 became refugees who never returned to their homes (McCarthy, 1995, pp 88–91).

Also please read E.Zucher's "the making of modern turkey" before making any comment against the history of turkey. Also read Kemal Karpat's "the politicisation of islam" pg. 136-154, which is more balanced and clear about the events of this period.

In his memoir Pictures from the Balkans published in 1906 John Foster Frase gives the following account of his visit to Shipka pass (p.91) and mentions the Russian massacres against the civilian muslim population:

At first the way was broad and easy. Then it narrowed, became rugged, and the horses were in lather. At places we dismounted and walked. There were rude paths through the woods, made in times of battle so that the troops might be moved beyond sight of the Turks on the heights. I rode over a knoll where were the Russian headquarters. I climbed a precipice where, with mighty labour, cannon had been perched to sweep the Pass.

All silent now in the drowse of glowing forenoon. The eye wandered beyond the dark, cypress-cloaked ravines. The world was an impressive panorama of tumbled hills. Distance was lost in the haze of heat.

Twenty-eight years ago the echoes were roused with thunderous cannonade. Russians to the north, Turks to the south, met on this mountain road. Terrible struggles took place in the hollows of the hills. Positions were lost and won and then lost again. The Russians, fearless of death, pushed their advantage; and the Turks, heedless of life, held their ground. One battle lasted for seven days. Then a fortnight of breathing time. On came the Turks again; they captured Mount Nicholas, the commanding position in the Pass. But they were mastered by the Russians, and with terrific slaughter fled to the southern ravines. There they waited till winter. The last great fight was in mist and blinding snowstorm. The Turks were outnumbered.

They struggled in desperation. It was useless. All that were left of them, 32,000 men, unconditionally surrendered. The Russians poured down the southern slopes to Shipka village.

There stands a bedizened, gorgeous, Russian-Greek church to commemorate the victory. The massive cupola, surmounted. by a cross, is of burnished gold. You can see the sun glitter on it from twenty miles away. But there is no record of the pillaging, the rapine and drunken orgies of the Rdssian troops when they laid hold of Shipka village.

An old man told me sad stories. "Ah!" said he, "the Turks did wrong things, but never anything so bad as the Russians." "But you are glad," said I, "that the Turk has been driven away, and that Bulgaria is now free?" "Not so very glad," he replied; "when the Turks were here taxes were light, and now they are heavy. Then we had a wider market for our goods; we had all Turkey. Now we are a separate country they try to keep out our goods. Bulgaria is a little country, and other countries tax our things. Perhaps it was best in the old days."

.. as a result of Russian expansioin, the Bulgarian revolutionary movement, and the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78, more than 500,000 Muslims were ethnically cleansed and settled in territories still controlled by the Ottomans, while another 260,000 Bulgarian Muslims died of starvation, disease, or cold, or were killed. By 1879, more than half of the Muslim population had left Bulgaria.

http://www.jstor.org/view/00207438/ap010095/01a00280/0


The Russo-Turkish war of 1877/78 takes up chapters 3 and 4, and McCarthy provides numerous graphic and detailed descriptions of how Russian troops and Bulgarian bands killed Muslim civilians indiscriminately. His account is based on, in addition to reports of the British consuls, the eyewitness dispatches of the correspondents of the major European newspapers; for this was the first foreign war covered in depth by newspaper men thanks to the availability of the telgraph. According to McCarthy's calculations, by 1879 13 percen of Bulgaria's Muslims had been killed and 34 percent made refugees; all in all, the Muslim population of Bulgaria was reduced from roughly 1,500,000 (and this is an underestimation) to a minority of 672,000 pople.

The indiscriminate killing of children, women (after repeated rapes) and of the old, and Russian soldiers' robbing refugees even of their clothes so outraged the European reporters that they drafted a letter denouncing the abuses (p. 67) However, neither this and similar letters nor Queen Victoria's protests amounted to anything. Similarly, attempts to send inquiry comittees into the Balkans were thwarted by the Russian and European procrastination and obfuscation.

http://www.jstor.org/view/01979183/di009794/00p0244f/0

--Hasanidin 00:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this topic should be a section in its own right, rather i think it would be better to incorporate the material into the 'outcomes of the war' section, or the like.Suicup 10:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Sure, I agree with you. I understand that this thread is about the war and not about the massacres against civilian Turks. A short sentence in the Outcome of the War acknowledging that half a million Muslims have been deported as a resulut of this war, and a quater of a million have died will be sufficient. I am thinking of creating a new article solely about the Massacres against the Turks when I get some more free time in the future. --Hasanidin 16:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Do you know anything of massacres or mass fleeing/deportation of Muslim Bulgarians (alias Pomaks)?--Aldux 17:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Pomak territories were not incorporated into Bulgaria until the Balkan wars in 1910s, so I do not think that they were affected that much in the 1878 war.


......................................................................................

As a turkic studies student i think i have, alter my profesor, the widest knowledge on this topic. nevertheless, i belive it is still healthly, to rather catogorize something like a war into only one countries history, but as there are two countries involved include the war into both of there history and also add anyone who has been affected by the war. also, one must be very carefull with what is writen and said about turkey and its past as, 80 per cent of the texts and books writen about the turks and the ottoman empire is biased. this is the case for many political reasons. so one must be completly open minded, and try to do their reseach properly i.e. by gaining the opinion and resources of both sides.

[edit] Request for a correction

The current (locked) version of the article states that the war brought the second statehood to the Bulgarian people. This is not accurate, as there had already been two Bulgarian Empires. The period of Bulgarian statehood following the war correctly should be referred to as the Third Bulgarian Kingdom. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.140.251.249 (talk • contribs) 19:37, 31 May 2006.

[edit] Mediation

I requested this dispute go into mediation, which it did, however Ghirlanda has been unresponsive. I have done the right thing, now it is time for others to cooperate.Suicup 04:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I'm taking over the mediation. Ghirlandajo, please respond. If you continue to edit without participating here we will have to take it to a higher form of dispute resolution. Ideogram 04:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks like Ghirlandajo is gone. I will close the case; let me know if you need my services again. Ideogram 19:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, he has not gone (as evidenced by his reversion of my last edit), and i'm afraid you will have to come back. I've left a note on your talk page.Suicup 16:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Ghirlandajo please respond. If he does not, you will have to pursue higher forms of dispute resolution, see WP:DR. I will be happy to assist you. Ideogram 16:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Nope. ArbCom doesn't review petty content disputes. --Ghirla -трёп- 16:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I have left a note on his talk page. Ideogram 16:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Ghirlandajo has removed my note on his talk page, calling it "trolling". This mediation is now closed. Again, I will be happy to assist you in further dispute resolution efforts. You might try an RfC. Ideogram 17:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
There already was an user RfC on that guy, and I must say it worked to some extent. He did not start to use talk pages when asked, but he stopped offending others. So, in other words, there is a chance to contact him, though at times it might be hard. //Halibutt 18:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hali, you know that I don't relish your society and avoid those discussions which are plagued by your trolling. Hence, no more posting from me on this page. --Ghirla -трёп- 16:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Another mediator is attempting to talk to him now. Ideogram 18:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Thankyou very much.Suicup 00:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of the paragraph

I reply to this page, because User:Cowman109 asked me to. [I believe that this the paragraph is a way to push a POV]. I don't want this page reduced to another Holodomor or Armenian Genocide, hence I remove the massacre talk on the ground of irrelevancy. It has no direct bearing to the subject of this article, so it should go. Case closed. --Ghirla -трёп- 16:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

This does bring up an interesting point. The paragraph concerning the massacre certainly is an event that appears to have affected the region heavily, but does it bear relevance to the article on the Russo-Turkish War? If so, perhaps it could be shortened a bit, as the way the paragraph stands does appear to elaborate on the massacre much more than is necessary. Cowman109Talk 16:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Let me recommend that you appeal to the broader Wikipedia community for input, by posting a Wikiquette alert or at the Village pump. Ideogram 18:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I have a question for Suicup: do you have a source for your claims other than Justin McCarthy? Although he's an expert on Ottoman history, he can be very partial on some things and is even criticised as a historical revisionist by others, particularly in the case of the Armenian Genocide, where the majority of western historians disagree with him. If he's biased on that subject, what makes you think he can give objective information on this? —Khoikhoi 03:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's our job to pass judgement on the validity of our sources. If he is a recognized expert, it's a verifiable source. If you want to counter his views, add appropriately cited material of your own. Ideogram 03:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Nonetheless, it should be addressed that the paragraph does appear to put unneeded emphasis on the massacre. I suggest that it could be cut down a bit to not contain so much of such material. Cowman109Talk 03:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
It shouldn't be based on our personal views, but I'm saying that a lot of people criticise the man. If you don't mind I'm going to quote Eupator:
David Irving is a more "respected" scholar than this guy. At least Irving is not financed or rewarded by revisionists. It's not that McCarthy's wife is Turkish that makes his motives biased it's the fact that he is actually paid by the Turkish government to publish his books. He was also awarded the Order of Merit of the Turkish Republic by the President of Turkey in 1998 and he got his Honorary Doctorate at Sûleyman Demirel University in Turkey. Not to mention that the book in question deals with ALL muslim deaths within the vast Empire during the war. That includes Druzes of Lebanon or the Shi'a Arabs of Iraq, Alevis of Anatolia and Syria etc. Many of those deaths were actually caused by the Ottoman Army. McCarthy is just a hired gun for Turkish interests within the U.S. Saying the Nazis were the victims of WWII falls under the category of Holocaust denial/revisionism right? Create an article for Genocide denial where this can be discussed, an article about a non-existent term and event is useless and illogical.
However, I will try to find sources, although I still don't think we should phrase what McCarthy says as absolute facts. Perhaps we could say something like, "according to Justin McCarthy in his book...etc. etc.". —Khoikhoi 04:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh I totally agree here. Any time there is a debate in the literature we should not take sides and should state each position along with cites to who supports them. Ideogram 04:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure some of McCarthy's views are seen as revisionist, however we are not talking about the Armenian genocide are we? I posted some peer reviews of this particular source in the now archived talk section which seemed pretty positive. If you read McCarthy's methodology for the figures, they seem pretty reasonable if you ask me. I will try to find other sources, although this is easier said than done as it is not really a heavily researched area of history. With respect to the paragraph, the massacre was a direct result of the war (indeed much of it happened while the war was in progress), hence i believe it should be included. I am happy for the paragraph to be shortened etc, however the fact that it took an edit war, and one failed mediation to even come to rational discussion about the topic at hand lowers my personal opinion of Wiki itself. Part of the reason i added the paragraph in the first place (in addition to its historical significance) was an attempt to correct what i saw as a pro-Russian bias in the article - before i started, all the 'sources' were Russian, the entire article was written from a Russian perspective. Obviously the victors get to write history, however if we are serious about writing some decent academic material, it pays to look at events from both sides. The article was and still is to an extent unreferenced, with a few weasel words such as Most analysts agree without actually citing any sources. It was me who added the Stavrianos source, which seemed to be well received (ie it wasn't mindlessly deleted outright).Suicup 07:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Please don't let one experience turn you off to Wikipedia. While arguments often get heated and you will have to defend your opinion, most of the time when you cite your sources people will respect you. Ideogram 07:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Or you will be called a 'pesky nationalist'....Suicup 18:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
That's just one editor. There are thousands of editors here. Ideogram 19:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
This discussion seems to have died down. I think we agreed that at least the paragraph should be shortened to not put such a significant emphasis on the massacre, then it would still state that such an event happened while still making everyone happy. Could someone try doing this? Cowman109Talk 15:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm happy to do so, however the key protagonist in this has not really spoken at all other than a token remark, thus unless we get some sort of confirmation that he will not delete any resultant incarnation of the paragraph, the matter is far from over.Suicup 15:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that should stop us from moving forward. It's his decision whether he would like to participate or not. Should he still have a problem with it he is welcoem to come back. Cowman109Talk 15:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
A sure way to restart discussion is to make your proposed edits and see who objects. Ideogram 12:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Please don't incite revert warring. If you persist, you will be reported. --Ghirla -трёп- 13:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
One edit as a precursor to discussion is not revert warring. Reverting without discussion is revert warring. Ideogram 13:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I just put in an edited version of my paragraph. It is about half the original length. Even though it is my opinion that the events were an ethnic cleansing, i took out that reference because it can be disputed. However, i think this exercise is futile because it seems that Ghirlandajo will not accept any version of the paragraph, and thus by editing it, i am diluting the point the original paragraph tried to make for no real reason.Suicup 04:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I briefly looked over the paragraph and saw a few points that could still be shortened a bit, and I came up with this:

Following the San Stefano treaty, the Russians set up their own governmental system in the new Bulgaria. Russians as well as Bulgarian nationalists then conducted a massacre of Turks, especially Muslims and Jews, in which more than half of the Muslims in Bulgaria had either died or been forced to flee as refugees. [1]

How does that sound? Cowman109Talk 05:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that over does it, here is a version without the final sentence.
Following the San Stefano treaty, the Russians set up their own governmental system in the new Bulgaria. Russians as well as Bulgarian nationalists conducted a massacre of Turks, especially Muslims and Jews, on the scale of the Ottoman massacre of Bulgarians in 1876.[2] By the conclusion of the war more than half the Muslims in Bulgaria had either died, or been forced to flee as refugees.[2]Suicup 06:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Why the removal of the word Turks? And shouldn't changes be floated here in talk first, with a consensus copy then being put in the article? Willy nilly editing just leads us back to square one.Suicup 16:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, not necessarily all Turks were Muslims and Jews (though it would make the most sense). It should probably be made clear who the larger group is, so there is no confusion. Cowman109Talk 16:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
How about Turkish Muslims and Jews?Suicup 16:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

On a side note, as the article clearly is disputed, would you object if I put a {{disputed}} tag at the top of the article? Removing the smaller disputed note doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. Cowman109Talk 16:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

No. However let me just say i didn't disagree with Aldux's whole edit - just the removal of the word Turks. I only reverted because i think any changes to this obviously contentious passage should be floated here first. Seeing that Ghirlandajo has swooped again, accused me, and is looking to start another edit war i wanted to make that clear.Suicup 16:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Be sure to assume good faith. Don't make a tense situation worse. Ideogram 16:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I already articulated my concerns above. Personal attack removed Please find a reputable source for your claims. A passing mention in the heavily biased book is not on. For the time being, let the tag stay, so that every reader could check this page and understand that Suicup's assertions are not the ultimate truth. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, be civil. Calling someone a troll is frowned on. Ideogram 17:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
We have WP:TROLL which may give you an idea of what the troll is. Given my experience at exposing the trolls and having them permabanned from editing Wikipedia, my calling someone a troll is not a personal attack, it is a statement of fact. As my edits are deleted here, you have no right to expect me to engage in this farce any more. I will post my comments where they are not deleted. Good bye, Ghirla -трёп- 18:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I was responsible for removing the tag; a blunder on my part, I'm sorry. As for the rest, I didn't expect my edits to be so contentious; simply 1) "massacres" seemed better than "a massacre" 2) "a massacre of Turks, especially Muslims and Jews" - now, reading this one starts to think that "muslims and jews" are subsects of Turks; also, by saying of muslims, I wanted to be more comprehensive; other than Turks, muslims in Bulgaria were, and still are, Pomaks, Tatars, and Roma; and the the weird, "massacre of Turks, especially jews" was removed 3) "By the conclusion of the war more than half the Muslims in Bulgaria had either died, or been forced to flee as refugees"; this wording seems made to overestimate the entities of the massacres 4) "Even if many returned in 1880" - this insertion comes from the enc. of Islam, the article "Bulgaria" if I remember correctly, but the data is also under the article "Pomaks".--Aldux 20:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry, Ghirlandajo can be a little sensitive. I'm sure the rest of us can come to an understanding. Ideogram 23:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Aldux, read my comments above, i didn't disagree with your edit, only the removal of the word Turks - i think it should be 'Turkish Muslims and Jews'. I wanted to let you know here rather than edit again and risk taking us back to square one. Just so you know, the reason it was written like that is because everyone who was massacred was a Turk, however Muslims and Jews within that group were particularly targeted. Thus it should have read 'Turkish Muslims and Jews' for clarity. As for Ghirlandajo, he pretty much sums up my low regard for wiki at the moment. His arrogance, and refusal to engage in critical thought, as well as his personal attacks make it very difficult if not impossible to undertake worthwhile edits of this encyclopaedia. Frankly, it is pointless even debating this as i have come to the conclusion he will never be satisfied with anything except his own conceited edits.Suicup 01:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Please avoid making personal attacks on Ghirlandajo yourself. Ideogram 18:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you telling me that Jews are Turks? Now, this is what I call a very fringy theory...--Aldux 16:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I would support dropping the Jewish reference completely as McCarthy only made a small mention. My original paragraph made sense, however the forced reduction in size/simplification has meant that this misunderstanding of meaning could be bound to occur. So it should just be Turkish Muslims.Suicup 17:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Only "Turkish muslims" is a bit pleonastic; weren't all Turks muslims? And I partly understand Ghirla's concerns regarding the source, McCarthy; while he exagerates, it is true that McCarthy has been a systematically partisan historian in all Ottoman issues; so it would be better to right something like "the historian Justin McCarthy claims that Russians as well as Bulgarian nationalists conducted massacres of Turks on the scale of the Ottoman massacre of Bulgarians in 1876." Also, the statement "The demographic changes which occurred then can still be seen today in the modern state of Bulgaria" clashs with what I know, that muslims returned in all the territories that did not become part of the kingdom of Bulgaria, and generally speaking memigration is a slow process that started in 1876 till 1989 (even today).--Aldux 23:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The proper context of the "McCarthist" paragraph is History of Independent Bulgaria, where the topic may be discussed in necessary detail, including McCarthy and (if one finds) opposing views. Controversial issues must be resolved within their most immediate context, where all aspects are at hand, not piecewise all over wikipedia. `'mikka (t) 00:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC) What is more, McCarthy spears about the decreasy of "Muslim population in Bulgaria between 1876 and 1882," i.e., it is no way a single-shot event that may be called "massacre". It was war within this period, you might notice, whose very goal was to drive invader Turks out. `'mikka (t) 17:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

You know what this discussion reminds me of? The discussion in Chechen articles (like Grozny) whenever the 250,000 ethnic Russians that disappeared from Chechnya statistics are mentioned. Someone even suggested they were all soldiers and spies and torturers and that sort of ilk, and so it was normal that they all left. --Pan Gerwazy 11:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe we need a more reputable source for sweeping allegations of genocide. Until verifiable sources, not propaganda, are provided, the controversial passage is better be dropped. --Ghirla -трёп- 13:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Nobody has called it genocide except you. Furthermore, the reference by McCarthy is not propaganda. Why can't you just accept a critical analysis of the situation, rather than be blinded by your own nationalism?Suicup 03:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Please avoid personal attacks. They are inflammatory and non-productive. Comment on the content and not the contributor. --Ideogram 03:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A compromise?

Well, from this diff we have what appears to be a complete rewording of the paragraph to focus on the after-effects of the war, and not specifically the massacre. Until other sources appear that definitively declare the event a massacre, perhaps it's best to leave the new paragraph as it is now, as the information is brought across in a neutral way. Words such as 'massacre' are often very controversial and it may be for the best to avoid that for the moment unless more reliable sources come up that clearly describe it as such. Are there any objections to this? Cowman109Talk 20:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for compromise, and find it a good idea.--Aldux 20:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Revert war of Aldux

I am baffled with the description "POV pushing". That Bulgars didn't like Turks is a sad fact, not POV. What is more, my addition clarifies that decrease of Turkish population was not result of "Russians set up their own governmental system in the new Bulgaria" as the contested version of this section insisted by Suicup. Please explain your opposition. Mukadderat 20:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It's very simple: I don't understand why references to Bulgaria in the 1950s and 1980s should end in an article on the Russo-Turkish War. These are arguments for others articles, that it doesn't make any sense inserting here. Nobody's saying that what you say is false: simply that it's hardly relevant in this context. As for Suicup's version, as you see, it's not here anymore. --Aldux 21:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
As a general philosophical remark, history is not a sequence of isolated events, and people often draw parallels acrosss time. To the immediate point, I explained in very detail the "why" in my edit comments: it gives a more fair comparison of numbers 500,000 and 1,000,000. You posed no objections to my actual explanations, therefore it is my turn to say that I don't understand what exactly you don't understand. (I am inclined to refuse to accept a very generic explanation that any mentioning of 1980 is disallowed in description of 1878 events.) Mukadderat 21:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Would it be enough if we simply placed "Notwithstanding heavy emigration to Turkey"? It would also be more accurate, because the 1950s and 1980s were only the most dramatic examples of a phenomenon that continues to the day.--Aldux 21:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
OK. Mukadderat 22:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
This 'new' sentence needs copyediting by someone who is a native English speaker. I am happy to do it if no one objects.Suicup 05:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation active?

Is this dispute still active? --Ideogram 17:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm closing the mediation. If you need further assistance, you can leave a note on my talk page. --Ideogram 05:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dahn's merge tag

Dahn, nobody knows better than me that you are the farthest thing from a Romanian nationalist that exists; but this doesn't remove my strong doubts regarding your tag. In all my history books this conflict is called Russo-Turkish War; while I'm afraid that "Romanian War of Independence" is a name popular only in Romania, as I've never heard of this name in my books.--Aldux 13:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  • That is exactly why I am proposing for the "War of Independence" article to be merged into the Russo-Turkish War one. Dahn 13:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I am mostly a humble observer of this article, but please allow me to notice that in Wikipedia it is customary to split big articles into smaller oones, not vice versa. While the conflict is the same, involvement of Romania in it is IMO a very separable topic, especially if there are certain people willing to expand it. Mukadderat 18:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the two articles are in no way different, and Ro historians tend to use Russo-Turkish war to refer to the "war of independence". The other article is succint and in no way independent, and at best it could form a separate section of this one. I also agree with several Russian users that the Ro participation was neither vital (except for a brief moment), nor separate from Russian command. Dahn 13:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I have simple question regarding the idea that "Russo-Turkish war 1877–1878 to refer to the "war of independence"". If this statement is true: In prevention of the Russo-Turkish being a misleading title -> Why not change the title of the Romania to Russia and Romanians to Russians or go with the more explicit definition "war of independence" instead of dates ("1877–1878") which is a better representation. If this statement is false: Is there a "Romanian war of independence" or after Russo-Turkish war 1877–1878 they become the subjects of Russians?" "Why Russians do not want to name it as "Romanian war of independence?" Is it possible that two wars instead of one is going on at the same time, one with Russian-Ottoman conflict and other Romanian war of independence against the other two parties, which Russia do not want to acknowledge"--OttomanReference 16:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
  • As for "popular only in Romania", this name is not a synonym of "Russo-Turkish War, 1877–1878". Also, while it is English wikipedia, there are many things English people simply don't have a name. If it is called "War of Independence" in Romania, then it was "war of independence", and it is only a pity that English world does not know this, and it is only good that wikipedia may fill the gap. Mukadderat 18:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Answered above. Let me stress again that the two names are synonymous "even" in Romania. Dahn 13:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Considering Dahn's awnsers, I remove my objections to a merge between the two articles. I have full confidence in Dahn's ability to merge the articles keeping the NPOV.--Aldux 13:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I sugest a compromise that will satisfy (I hope) both the Romanians and the Anglo-phones: at the See Also section of each article a reference to the other article. We (the Romanians) do not anything against the fact that the worls knows this war as the Russo-Turkish War. But the world must know that this war was The War of Independence for us. Let us not forget that, in the end, the Comander of the Russo-Romanian Armyes was H.M King Carol I of Romania. ES Vic 17:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I have to say that it is absurd to be looking for "a compromise" in a matter that is settled by sheer convention (and not by voting). Most of the info on the "War of Independence" article and in Romanian historiography is either repetitive or detailing info present here; whatever is not repetitive and detailing is hardly relevant. Even what you say the "world must know" does not in the least affect the generic ptroblem of logic in creating and managing articles; I don't know what the world "must" know, but let me tell you that this is a good way to ensure that the world will know that wikipedia tolerates subjectivity. "Let us not forget that, in the end, the Comander of the Russo-Romanian Armyes was H.M King Carol I of Romania." - this is not really valid, and it adds naught to the argument. Dahn 17:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge here I am not against mentioning that in Romania, and even possibly in the Ukraine and Russia this war is known as the "Romanian War of Independence". However, since the war was about other issues as well, and was fought in other areas of the Ottoman Empire as well, it seems appropriate that the artcile be lodged under the traditional (in English) title "Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878)". I do think that all the necessary information, including appropriate reference to Romanian paticipants and partizans, can and should be part and parcel of the article. This does not preclude someone from writing an article on the Romanian indepedence movement which could include so much more than a partial duplicate of this article. 70.57.246.220 19:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russian War Casualties

I see that Russian losses in the war are estimated to be as high as 200,000 by the time of the truce of January 1878. Is this dead only or dead and wounded together? More important, is there a reliable source for this figure? It seems awfully high considering the war by that stage had only lasted some nine months. Clio the Muse 00:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


These figures are not accurate. They are made by a Pro-Turkish historian who has made controversal remarks. Real casualties are around 50,000 for russians and their allies and 100,000 for ottoman turks.
200,000 Russian dead in the 1877-78 war is impossible. This figure must represent dead and wounded together.
Kenmore 02:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)Kenmore

[edit] Repressions against Turks

I am one of the main initial contributors to this article and I tried to present an open minded concept of the event by pointing out that Russia's goal was its imperial interests, and that a new Turkish constitution was drafted to ease the tension, but was ignored by everyone. If you read this article's translation to Russian, for exampe, you will never find references to these, and you will be under the impression that the goal of this war was entirely to save the slav brothers from the Turkish oppressors.

I agree that the Turkish side of this story is much less known to the world, and to me. It's good to have friends here to alert us of that, and to contribute. However, please refrain from referencing the current situation in Bulgaria. This note, for example, (For comparison, there are about 1,000,000 Muslims in Bulgaria today, roughly %12 of the total population, despite heavy immigration to Turkey) could easily be contested and is completely out of context, in my opinion. First bear in mind that even in the contest of present day Bulgaria the terms Muslim and Turk are not synonims, and in the general sense they are quite different.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../r/u/s/Talk%7ERusso-Turkish_War_%281877%E2%80%931878%29_cd10.html"