Talk:Russian Mafia

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[edit] Questionable statement

The article says: "The oligarchs such as Khodorkovsky and Berezovsky and other prominent Russian Families of Jewish ethnicity such as the Vicefield/Litvinoffs, have all had alleged links with the Russian Mafia. Their connections with the state of Israel are extensive." Can anyone prove this? Sounds like speculation with anti-semitic undertones. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yakolev (talk • contribs).

That comment is undated and probably old, but there was a vandal who was inserting the name "Vicefield" in Wikipedia in various ways, including a now-deleted biography of this presumably made-up family. I think the last of these was recently removed. - Jmabel | Talk 03:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Objectives

Two things, both of which I am too damn lazy to do, please merge the four articles that need to be merged and also, I've written the urls of a couple of realiable sites with good information in the refrences and furthering reading part of the page, please read the articles and add some of the information to this article. Thank you to anyone who will complete these objectives, and good luck. --GorillazFanAdam 02:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

This article contains a lot of allegations concerning ethnic/religious backgrounds and very few sources to back up the claims.

What is the source of the obscure "estimate" that the Russian Mafia put $4 billion dollars into the Israeli economy? And how is "Jewish predominance" within the Russian Mafia defined? It would be better to mark these passages as speculations since these claims can obviously not be substantiated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.149.45.51 (talk • contribs).

I agree, there are a lot of uncited statistics throughout the article, but someone deleted the unreferenced tag I added to this article without adding citations. Brad T. Cordeiro 00:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish presence in Rusian Mafia

For those dim enough to realise that the number of russian jews within the mafi is bound to be a lot, its just like the u.d.a in irland, in some parts a catholic is the head, such a contrast, so to say that due to a persons religion or even backround would stop them from partaking in organised crime would be a farse, its not the teaching that craves, it's the wounder. Please write back what you think. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.250.29.221 (talk • contribs).

  • Nobody disputes that some members of the Russian Mafia happen to be of Jewish descent. To claim, however, that this criminal organization is essentially run by Jews, possibly as a part of some global Jewish criminal network is a very serious accusation. The Nazis tried to fabricate a similar story before. Besides, why does the religious background matter of some gang members matter in the first place? Why isn't anyone discussing the fact that the Italian mafia is run by Catholics and what that implies about Catholics as a group? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.191.165.143 (talk • contribs).
  • I'm sorry but that was an unfair comment to make about cathilocs as being a catholic dose not mean that you are part of crime in any way. i think you must have a problem with diffrent religions. thats not on,the catholic commuinity is a well developed and respected commuinity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.31.137.11 (talk • contribs).
  • Sorry but I think you missed my point here. This was not to say anything negative about the Catholic community or any other denomination. It was about double standards being applied to Jewish people and adherents of other religions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.191.145.235 (talk • contribs).
  • Ya, you don't see anyone pointing out that Cathliocs run the Italian mafia, why should it be pointed out that Jews are int the Russian Mob, thats slightly Anti-Semetic. That was a good point. --GorillazFanAdam 02:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
  • It's not a very good point though because being Catholic merely describes one's religious identity (apart perhaps from some general southern European cultural influences), while being Jewish is often defined in religious, ethnocultural, national, or even existential terms (or any combination thereof). In addition there are over one billion Roman Catholics, making generalizations about them based on the criminal activities of a small number less meaningful than for a group consisting of less than fifteen million persons worldwide. Critic9328 05:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Right because that one factor of ten is really important when you are talking about a few hundred to a few thousand individuals out of millions? In order for your argument to make sense you would have to establish that a larger percent of the jews of the world were involved in organized crime than the percentage of catholics. This involves not just the number of catholics and the number of jews in the world but also the number of catholic and jewish criminals. My point it is foolish to argue that a) such a comparison can be established with any reasonable certainty, and that b) such a comparison, if established, would be meaningful. In fact it would not, it would still just be anti-semitic to emphasize that the Russian mafia has Jews in it. This article is quite clearly anti-semitic. If I knew more about the Russian mob, I would fix it. Dwinetsk 21:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Sources concerning Jewish leadership of the Russian Mafia.

  • [1], a NY Times article, reprinted at this site
  • [2], An article by Robert I. Friedman author of the book "Red Mafiya" about the Russian Mafia.
  • [3], BBC source mentioning the questioned $4 billion dollar figure.
  • [4], article about the financement of the state of Israel mentioning cash gifts of over $1 billion each from Russian/Jewish mafia kingpins to Israeli politicians.

EBW —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.202.114.204 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Anti-Semitism?

I agree that this article needs reviewing, but to claim that it is anti-semitic is jumping the gun.

To claim that there are no Jews in organised crime is also ludicrous. Are we to believe, that of the whole Russian Mafia organisation, there is not one single Russian Jew involved?

For you to request sources from the writer of this article, and then claim that there are no Jews in organised crime without any evidence whatsoever is hypocritical at best.

Maybe you should look past the end of your nose at the bigger picture before making such serious accusations.

Tom —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Highwaytohell (talk • contribs).

The whole of idea of Jews in organized crime is preposterous and ludicrous. There is no such thing. I should know. - Meyer Lansky, Miami, Florida. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.147.200.144 (talk • contribs).

I think he made a joke... (Meyer Lansky = jewish mob boss) freaking idiots! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.250.29.221 (talk • contribs).
i think we should rewrite the article ourselves, take a vote 444 if you want to rewrite, 222 if not.
Russian society was/is a corrupt society. Everyone was involved in some sortr of a criminal enterprise in order to exist. keep in mind that the government in the USSR was the sole supplier of all goods and services. Therefore anyone doing business for themselves had to be involved with some sort of crime. Jews in the USSR were never considered Russians. They were as much or as little involved in organized criminal activities as was everyone else. The article smacks of anti-semitic Russian overtones.
And most importantly the term Russian Mafia is in itself a mismomer. Russian organized crime is a loose amalgamation of criminal enterprises and not the tightly knit "Godfather-like" structure we know as the Italian mafia.
See my book "The Soviet Way of Crime." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.198.91.253 (talk • contribs).
when this article speaks of jewish, it is talking about the ethnicty of jews, not the religion judaism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.44.107.40 (talk • contribs).
As the Friedman describes in some detail in his (not wonderfully credible) book(Red Mafiya), a great many people who were technically ethnically Jewish (though not necessarily culturally) emigrated after the relaxing of Soviet restrictions (which was done with at least some intentions of removing professional criminals). Israeli nationalists (practically by definition Zionist; i.e. supporters of a homeland for the Jewish people, religious or not) were quite happy to help them acquire Israeli citizenship (open to anyone of Jewish ancestry) and some American Jewish organizations similarly helped them to settle within the United States. When claiming to be of Jewish ancestry was a ticket out of the USSR, it's hardly shocking that many people chose to. Friedman relates the rather comic episode of an ethnically Jewish jewel thief from Russia who operated using a disguise as a Chasid (sometimes called in the American press "Ultra-Orthodox"; a term causing no small amount of embarrassment to some Orthodox Jews) and was caught after an airport security worker became suspicious of his flying on Yom Kippur. That seems to me one of the better illustrations of the gap between ethnicity and culture or religion. As for the existence of Russian anti-semitism, that hardly seems open to question, but given that the article states at its beginning that the "Russian" mafia is composed of members from virtually every former SSR, the claims of offensiveness on the basis of Jewish membership seem at best irrelevant. Also, at least in my opinion, the last paragraph is of decidedly dubious quality: it appears to be simple hearsay, which then disclaims its own content, before heading off and making an unverifiable (and astonishingly weak) claim ("it looks like the mafia's power is on the verge of diminishing"). Finally, of course, it is decidedly worthwile to emphasize the decentralized character of the "Mafia". The article as written seems to imply that it is some sort of monolithic entity, almost like a second government, which hardly seems justified. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.17.142.184 (talk • contribs).

[edit] GIVE ME A BREAK!!

I have a good amount of knowledge about the subject (no, I'm not a mobster) and I'm gonna write what most Jews and most Russians and most everyone else already knows: The Russian mafia takes ANYONE, be they Russian, Jew, Ukrainian, Chechen, Belarusian, Moldovan, Khazak, etc. And Yes, I'm adding the source, too...and stop bickering, this is not related to anti-semtisim or anything else. Please review my posting and you will see it's true. TALK to me via my IP if u disagree....thanx! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.10.43.83 (talk • contribs).

[edit] WikiProject

Please see WikiProject Organized crime (proposed) for details on this possible collaborative effort. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MadMax (talk • contribs).

[edit] Article name

If the common name for them is "Red Mafia", why are they under Russian Mafia (with somewhat unorthodox capitalization)? -- nae'blis (talk) 21:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Ya, a lot of the people in the Russian Mafia are opposed to communism, Red Mafia is not used very often. --GorillazFanAdam 02:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russian Mob

Why is this article titled the Russian "Mafia?" Mafia is Italian organized crime. This article should be renamed "Russian Organized Crime" or "The Russian Mob." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.141.3.45 (talk • contribs).

Because that's what the Russians call them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.116.78.74 (talk • contribs).
  • Mafia means the same thing in Russian as in English and Italian, thats why. --GorillazFanAdam 02:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean? The Mafia is The Mafia...It doesn't mean anything in Russian. The Mafia is a purely Italian and Sicilian organization. Most people within the Russian Mob would not refer to the Russian Mob as "the Russian Mafia." That is an inaccurate term created by outsiders and the press. I agree that this article should be moved to the "Russian Mob."

[edit] communism in russian mafia

mafia groups based in the former soviet union are for the most part ex-kgb and ex soviets of some sort spetznaz or what ever and are staunch communists how ever most russian mobsters in america are quite the oppisite they are staunch anti-communists and are very different in ethics and organization to their homeland counter parts, mainly because the russians in america immigrated to get away from communism, soviet mobsters in america were probably also criminals in the gulags of the soviet union. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.166.104.26 (talk • contribs).

[edit] John Tillmann

The information related to John Tillmann is being investigated as a possible hoax (or possibly simply a lack of sourcing). See Talk:John Tillmann. studerby 16:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Editors decided to delete the John Tillmann article for failing WP:V. No mention appears in LexisNexis and all Google references are circular back to Wikipedia. The claimed supporting reference, the Yorke book also fails verification. The book's ISBN was invalid, and the book could not be found in any of several databases where it should. The only editor who had contributed to the article did not provide any additional reference material, but kept attempting to blank the John Tillmann article. Studerby 13:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] arms dealing

how come the russian mafias extensive arms dealing operations are not mentioned at all, including how they arm terrorist groups and allegedly have business interests in nuclear proliferation not to mention political insurgency in chechnia these things are so important and we see them every day on the news yet none of this is mentioned here. the russian mob of course isnt mentioned on the news but everything they have a hand in is where do you think terrorists and guerillas get their kalishnikovs? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.166.104.26 (talk • contribs).

The black market perhaps? Its not just the russian mofia that gun run, they are actually a small part of it! Drew1369 21:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Threat to word law enforcment

I think the mobs treats to international securaity and Unbelievible power and vastness should be more predominetly mentioned this is A horrible brutle Dangerus international organisation Proboly headed by Putten himself. --J intela 19:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

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