Talk:Royal Christmas Message
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Royal Christmas Message was the UK Collaboration of the Fortnight for the fortnight starting on December 26, 2004.
For details on improvements made to the article, see Past Collaborations and History |
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[edit] Talk from Queen's Christmas Message, 2004
Copied talk from Queen's Christmas Message, 2004
[edit] Copyright
Isn't the text Crown copyright? And shouldn't this go on wikisource if it isn't? ed g2s • talk 12:14, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't know the details. I doubt it, as the Crown copyright applies to Government documents, this is put out by the Queen in her personal capacity. But it is made freely available so there's no problem with using it. I'm not even sure a public speech attracts copyright protection - after all, the person making the speech wants their words to be publicised and reported. jguk 12:18, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Speechs are very much under copyright protection - just as any other works once they are set onto any media. Even if this were public domain or under a free license, then it would still not be appropriate for Wikipedia. Wikisource would be the place to put it. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not number 13 "Mere collections of public domain or other source material." --mav 16:52, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Which section of the Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 are you referring to? It's not as though we are storing a copy of the broadcasts here, just the text of the speech (which is worth keeping here in the short-term whilst it is newsworthy. Lob it over to Wikisource in a fortnight's time, if you want. jguk 19:23, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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- This is an encycopedia, not a newspaper. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. If something is only of limited-term value, then it has no place here. A transcript of a broadcast is a clear derivative work of that broadcast and thus the original copyright still applies. And copyright is fixed once a work is created. Unless the Queen or her agent expressly placed the item in the public domain, then it is under copyright. --mav 02:06, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Under which legislative provision? jguk 20:42, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Strange. Wikipedia can link to (allegedly) copyrighted material, but not host it??? The BBC makes no mention of permission for use, or any other copyright mention on the material.
ed_g2s, having looked at the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (and related SIs), I can't see anything in it about this. We can't re-enact the Message without permission (that's banned), nor can we rebroadcast it. But there's nothing in there about quoting the speech. It would be rather odd too, wouldn't it, if we couldn't quote a speech? Not allowed to repeat Martin Luther King's "I have a dream", or Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner"? No reference to Thatcher's "U-turn if you want to - the lady's not for turning"? Speeches are put out in the public domain. There they remain. jguk 10:13, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Speechs most certainly are not in the public domain unless their copyright has expired or the owner of the copyright placed it there. There is no exception for speechs in copyright. --mav
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- Under which specific legislative provision? jguk 19:22, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- You talk about "I Have a Dream", perhaps you should read the article on it then get back to us. ed g2s • talk 19:29, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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- To be honest with you, I didn't as it's not really relevant here. It's protection under UK law that we're discussing. jguk 20:33, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Compliment
Nice article. – Kaihsu 20:17, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)
[edit] Merging
I think this article should be renamed Queen's Christmas Message and be more general as a large chunk of this article is just about a Queen's Christmas Message in general. Also there is already an article Queens-Christmas-Speech though it needs to be copyedited and wikified so that could be merged into this one. Evil Monkey → Talk 20:43, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
- Leave it separate whilst it's still on the main page in the "In the news" template. Once it's left there, I'd agree with merging, and expanding on info for earlier years' speeches (there's also an Annus horibilis page that should be merged too). jguk 21:09, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good idea Andreww 22:01, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I agree Hypno 04:42, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Not to mention, it doesn't specify that it is Elizabeth II of the UK. Do Queen's of any other royal families give Christmas messages? -- Chuq 08:06, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I think we have at least three pages to merge, Royal Christmas speech and Queen's Christmas Message are rather simmilar and, IMHO, they should be merged and one (and I don't know which) be a redirect to the other. The material on this page should be included as a sub-section (notable Christmas messages section?) and at leat some of the material from Annus horribilis also added. Andreww 10:48, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
George V and George VI's msgs should be merged into one article covering the general idea. Dunc|☺ 17:57, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Merged Queen's christmas message into royal christmas message. Assuming at some stage, some other member of the royal family will start giving the speeches. Not sure about the annus horribilis merge though, it's not clear whether annus horribilis was first used in the christmas message, or in another speech.
- This page is going to become quite large if each year there is a summary of the speech, and the reactions. I guess we can figure that problem out later.
[edit] Number of speeches?
I believe that this years speech is known as the 51st Queens Christmas message and that 2003 was the 50th. The reason being that there was no speech in 1969 and the coronation was not until 1953. I emphasised that 2003 was the 50th in my original article, but this was edited. Which should it be?
- You're right with everything except your counting:) . Her first one was in 1952 (maybe that's where you're going wrong instead), and she missed one speech, so her 50th was in 2002. (If you're not sure about counting, check the Royal Family's webpage on the Christmas Message - this also has 2002 as the year of the 50th speech.) jguk 10:10, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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- I've been going through my video collection (think I have every Christmas message since 1994 somewhere - I am very sad), and the Queen announced in her 2001 message that it was her 50th. I can't explain this other than that she forgot taking a year off in 1969. Dbiv 00:29, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Useful info?
http://www.sim64.co.uk/queens.html may provide useful info to solve the annus horribilis question (and others). Andreww 19:59, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
1992 speech text is just: "Like many other families, we have lived through some difficult days this year...It has touched me deeply that so much support has come from those of you with troubles of your own. If we can sometimes lift our eyes from our own problems, and focus on those of others it will be at least a step in the right direction." Seems to be incomplete
[edit] Why is this article here?
Why is this article under "Royal Christmas speech", a terminology that, as far as I am aware, is not used? The Royal Family website uses the terms "Christmas broadcast" and "Christmas message". Should we not use one of these terms instead? jguk 12:45, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
They also use Christmas speech. All three names seem a bit generic.
As far as I can see both broadcast and message are more commonly used. As the article starts with the first broadcast (1932) and the message is not realy a speech (it is not given publicly, only publicly broadcast after the event) I think one of the alternitives may be more sensible. Andreww 08:59, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Try a google search under "Royal Christmas speech" and you will see why I think it shouldn't be here. There are 3 hits, 2 of which are Wikipedia. jguk 10:46, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Would there be any objections to my moving this to Royal Christmas Message? jguk 23:19, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- No objection Andreww 02:17, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "Late Majesty"
Is it really necessary to refer to each king and queen in this article as "His Late Majesty?" Simply saying, "King George VI continued the Christmas broadcasts" seems to suffice; adding "His Late Majesty" before the King's name seems unnecessary. Even Queen Elizabeth's own article only refers to the Queen as "Her Majesty" in the introduction, the titles section, and in direct quotations. 青い(Aoi) 06:00, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
- I quite agree and have been bold - is the history section better? Andreww 22:27, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Alternative Christmas Messages
I removed Victoria Beckham from the 2003 section. Though it was announced on the 3rd December that she was to present the message, these were only rumours. This report [1] from the 4th states that Channel 4 denied this, and that a couple from Wife Swap had recorded the message already.
Looking at Off The Telly's Christmas log for that year, which is only online during December and January, but here's a Google cache [2], it says "The Alternative Christmas Message, delivered by two of the "stars" of Wife Swap, was shown as usual at 3pm", which confirms the report. However, I've left the 2003 bit blank, as it seems a little odd to just say the message was from "a couple from Wife Swap" without saying any names. For the same reason, I've left the 1997 bit blank, as I know from Off the Telly [3] it was a Belfast schoolgirl, but, again, I don't know the name. BillyH 00:37, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] BBC/ITN
Someone recently added 'BBC' or 'ITN' to the descriptions of the messages, on the principle that they alternate every year. But the 2003 message was definitely a BBC production, which means they don't.
Anyone know how they actually alternate? Every two years? BillyH 12:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Is this 'original research'?
I note the claim that the 1998 broadcast was the first to appear on the internet. This is not strictly speaking true as the 1994 broadcast was the first. I know because I was the one who transcribed it from a video recording - proof archived here by Google groups. David | Talk 14:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
