Talk:Rousse

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Isn't Rousse the 5th largest city in Bulgaria ? Sorted by number of citizens largest cities are: Sofia, Plovdiv, Varna, Bourgas (a lot of people moved there in 90s because of Neftochim)

Try these websites:

http://www.port.bg/en/ruse.htm http://www.econt.com/ http://www.infotech.bg/homepages/rousse_city/danube.htm http://www.rousse.bg/connection.htm http://www/novotika.com/rousse.html http://www.obce.be/en/Newsletters/flash5-index.html#comunication http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Resort/6006/danube.htm http://www.navbul.com/bmt1.htm http://www.infotech.bg/rousse/map/index.html http://b-info.com/places/Bulgaria/news/97-04/apr23.voa http://www.port.bg/en/portrSc.gif [Plan] http://www.port.bg/en/ruse_es.gif [Plan] http://www.port.bg/en/ruse_ws.gif [Plan] http://www.port.bg/en/dunavMenu/tz_ruse_f2.gif CARLOS TIBBETTS tibbettsm001@hawaii.rr.com

[edit] Reasons for deletion

I deleted the Romanian and Turkish names for Русе (Ruse) because the Romanian name nowadays is Ruse - try the Romana link. Rusciuc was older name and it is not used now. According to me, in English Wikipedia only English and national language should be in. Give your opinion.--Valkov 17:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I think they have a place in the history section, and should be mentioned there. --Cameltrader 09:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rousse or Ruse

Hi. Why are we using "Rousse" as the English name. The Bulgarian name is Ruse (as is the Romanian name). Also, Ruse tends to be used quite commonly in English, and is probably the preferred version in modern English. Rousse sounds quite archaic and odd, even for English speakers. Ronline ✉ 12:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Ruse is the proper transliteration, while Rousse is a leftover from some old French-influenced transliteration attempts (like Bourgas and Shoumen). I'm personally for Ruse, Bulgaria, but Rousse also seems to be quite popular, especially among official sites of the city and its institutions, so I'm open to debate. → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 17:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I have been to the municipality's website and, yes, the English version endorsed by them is "Rousse". So, in a way, this can be seen as the official English version. On the other hand, a Google search of "ruse, bulgaria" and "rousse, bulgaria" yields similar results, with "Ruse" tending to be used more by the travel industry. I still think that the name Rousse sounds very artificial (as does Bourgas and Shoumen). In Romania, a lot of these archaic names ("Rumania", "Krajova", "Bistritz" and "Jassy") were phased out of English usage after WWII and are currently very little used. Ronline ✉ 01:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

A conversation moved from my talk page — here Todor is asking me (a newcomer) about the spelling dilemma:

Zdrasti Hello Todor,

I'm writing in English so that others can understand us. Glad to hear from someone with so many contributions to articles related to Bulgaria, I was also thinking about contacting you.

As for Rousse - yes, I think that should be the right spelling. Don't ask me why. That's the tradition, I studied in a language school there, and we've always spelt it like that. It's probably a relict from the French influence in the beginning of the century (the French spelling is in fact Roussé). You can see it in most local companies' logos, and on the traffic signs. A less frequently used spelling is the (German) Russe, whereas Ruse is just a formal transliteration, and is rarely used in translations. I also believe Rousse is more likely to be pronounced correctly by an English speaker (I could be wrong). The only reason we might avoid changing names related to the "Ruse oblast (province)" is that its web site is ruse.bg - not a serious argument IMO. The municipality's web site is, of course, rousse.bg. I find the reasoning above not strong enough, so I decided not to clutter the talk page — it looks biased towards the Rousse spelling anyway.

I am mainly contributing to locally significant articles (er, though I currently live in Sofia), but don't think I am not willing to help Portal:Bulgaria in general, or whatever I take interest in. Unfortunately, my spare time will soon become rather limited.

Thanks for mentioning the "Romanization", I'll try to follow it.

--Cameltrader 15:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I see... Rousse is as far as I know the only of these old French-influenced transliterations that has survived and is still widely in use. Then, if it's like that, we'll leave the article named Rousse, although we might organize a discussion and straw poll in the future to have some external feedback and see what the community thinks. Spare time is always an issue, unfortunately, but I hope you'd continue to help actively — we certainly need more editors contributing to Bulgaria-related articles. You can add your name to Wikipedia:WikiProject Bulgaria#Participants if you like, it's just an informal listing of users generally contributing to the topic, you won't obliged to do anything else :) Todor→Bozhinov 18:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Please let me know if you start the poll, so that I can organize and publish my pros and cons before everyone votes blindly. As you saw above, I'm moderately biased to the Rousse spelling. Btw, other cities do have the same problem — I don't believe citizens of Nesebar/Nessebar will let the s be pronounced [z]; Tarnovo looks more weird and error-prone than Turnovo; consider also: Shumen/Shoumen (even Schoumen) and Burgas/Bourgas. And Sandanski is known as St Dancekey (just joking). It's not about uniformity. Even if we (wikipedians) and an official institution enforce straightforward transliteration, I'm sure many will still use the traditional spelling(s), and it will remain a mess for long. --Cameltrader 13:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I usually prefer using a uniform transliteration scheme, even if it has serious flaws like the current official one. My best choice is the Serbo-Crotian-and-Romanian-influenced scheme (ž, š, č, ǎ, j, etc.), since ъ can be only properly presented using diacritics, and I don't particularly like the way letters like ж, ш and ч are transliterated using two letters (zh, sh, ch). But that's just my opinion.

Will notify you in case I decide to organize the straw poll. Todor→Bozhinov 14:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I tried to sort out the reasons for which spelling to choose and I put them in a table at the beginning of this section. Feel free to add more. After some research, I am now strongly convinced that Rousse is more appropriate. --Cameltrader 12:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia policy for transliteration of Bulgarian is that the official Bulgarian transliteration is used (unless there is a conventional English spelling, which apparently there isn't, or it concerns a linguistic article), so it's Ruse until after a new consensus has been reached about transliteration on the talk page of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Cyrillic). Also, have a look at the sign at the city limit and see what's written there below the Cyrillic (unless of course the old signs in Cyrillic only haven't been stolen and replaced yet :-). Preslav 17:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Which government policy? Bulgarian government may recommend transliteration, but English spelling is beyond their jurisdiction. And I'll check your argument about Wikipedia's policy. Which road sign? I clearly remember seeing a relatively new road sign spelt "Rousse", I should even have a picture of it, but I cannot provide it now — it remained on another PC, so maybe later this week... I'm afraid the article will have to stay as is, before we both do some more research. I hope your motivation to oppose is not a blind "let's make them all look the same" approach. To me, the spelling issue is about preserving tradition. Sure, I could be wrong. --Cameltrader 20:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I must admit I've never been to Ruse, but I travel regularly from Sofia to Pleven and meet nothing but "Ruse" signposts on the way so I assumed this would continue all the way to the city limit. The municipality does seem to have a preference for "Rousse", though, but strictly speaking this is illegal according to the site of the Ministry of State Administration and Administrative Reform, which says that "The transliteration of the names of geographical objects and the names of the objects in the modern city space has an obligatory character. The proposed transliteration of the names of people has an optional character."[4] Whether the English Wikipedia should follow the official Bulgarian transliteration is open for discussion, though. What is important is that someone who wants to know more about the city can find the information he is looking for; if its under "Ruse" or "Rousse" is insignificant to me. Preslav 17:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Right. So we are criminals then, we who break the law and can't read road signs? I'm scared, I just heard a police car pass by :) "Comprehensible Bulgaria" is a relatively new effort, as far as I know, and BAN's DB is part of it, so basically they are the same thing. I believe that'll pass after we join the EU, no matter which spelling they favour. Yes, unfortunately it's a mess, and will probably stay this way. We should have had this discussion a hundred years ago. And (you may criticize me) I think the Serbs once made a better choice — writing "и тако", "i vako".

I do have a bias, based on the way most English-speaking people from Ruse/Rousse say it should be spelt, you don't seem to really care, there's a redirect, so I'd prefer not to waste time on this now. It is hard to influence the way people spell, even if BAN scientists get payed as much as a taxi driver earns. I'm sure there is space for better reasoning here (e.g. do research, ask teachers of English, cite a law or prove actual usage) for both opinions. --Cameltrader 20:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

One of the few road signs which use the Rousse spelling, at Obraztsov Chiflik, near the exit to Varna

I travelled the Sofia-Rousse route today, and I paid some attention to the road signs. Indeed, all signs on the Hemus highway read Ruse, and until Pleven I could only spot two Russe-s near Strelkite — the place where the road splits into two: to Rousse and to Varna. At Pleven however, the majority of signs turns into Russe, and their appearance changes from new green boards, to older blue boards (I mean most of them). I counted a dozen of Russe-s near Pleven and Obnova. This goes all the way to near Byala, where segments of Ruse-s remind of the recent road reconstruction. What surprised me, was that the first Rousse appeared (incorrectly) in the name "Roussenski Lom" (referring Rusenski Lom, a river; rusenski is a Bulgarian adjective, not a translatable name). Then comes the one at the city limit, which obviously follows the municipality's preference. I handn't really paid much attention to that before, except knowing that road signs are spelt differently, and I have no observation of what the state is on roads other than the road to Sofia, but I was too "short-sighted" to notice that the Rousse signs are only in the proximity of the city... Nevertheless, here it's Rousse, and I give you, as promised, my old picture of another city exit — the one near Obraztsov Chiflik.

So, to sum up, Russe-s are the older signs; Rousse-s are, I believe, the result of the municipality's effort to move them from German to English; Ruse-s are the government's efforts to use uniform transliteration. Phew, that's it. --Cameltrader 23:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I was wrong, wrong, wrong... In my previous message I said "[it] obviously follows the municipality's preference" (meaning Rousse) about the sign at the city limit, though I missed it this time. I said that because I'd seen the sign about half a year ago (it was Rousse and was vandalized with the name of some football team), but yesterday I saw it's been replaced with Ruse. So, Preslav, your argument about the road signs is correct: no road sign (I saw) between Rousse and Sofia is Rousse. It would be interesting to e-mail the municipality and get their opinion on the matter... --Cameltrader 04:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

E-mailing the municipality — now that is a great idea, I'd be happy to hear what they think about this issue and how they would resolve it. Todor→Bozhinov 11:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Sent. --Cameltrader 21:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

No reply yet. --Cameltrader 10:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

It won't happen this way... I don't know if they chose to remain silent or just don't check their email. If anybody there can make a face-to-face contact with a municipality representative, please do. --Cameltrader 09:04, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ruzo

The interwiki for the Ido artificial language looks wrong. I believe ruzo means a dirty trick, a ruse. If anyone is an expert, please help. --Cameltrader 18:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I remove the Ido language interwiki, see io:User_talk:Joao_Xavier#"Ruzo". --Cameltrader 10:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)