Talk:Rosalind Franklin

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To-do list for Rosalind Franklin: edit · history · watch · refresh
List of improvements (please add to this list be specific)
  1. Add more information about her personal life.
  2. more detail on her time working on coal and graphite.
  3. More detail about whether she had the impression from Randall that she and Gosling alone would be working on the x-ray diffraction of DNA, this was certainly Wilkins's impression and that of Klug, and may have contributed to her perception of interference from Wilkins.
  4. Need to add more information about what Crick and Watson knew of Franklin's work (and where they got it) in winter of '52/'53.
  5. Include more information from the letters to Science in 1968.


Contents

[edit] Aaron Klug essay

Alun, I assume you will be cross-checking the facts from Sir Aaron Klug's essay from the Oxford National Biography against your own REF article and will identify any changes made to it? (You cannot always assume that such pieces are totally correct, as - for example - Maurice Wilkins' biography of Sir John Randall for the RS ommits any reference to the year Randall spent teaching at the Cavendish Laboratory, Cambridge - which in view of their subsequent 'rivalry' with KCL is interesting of course. You will find the human relationships in the DNA saga were not just confined to Crick-Franklin-Watson-Wilkins by the way; the one between Bragg Jnr. and Randall received very little coverage, but was probably just as important as the ones between the four main participants! I see Bragg and Randall as pulling all of their strings in the race for the Nobel Prize. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nitramrekcap (talk • contribs).

  • I assume you will be cross-checking the facts from Sir Aaron Klug's essay from the Oxford National Biography against your own REF article and will identify any changes made to it.
Identify any changes made to what? I'm a bit confused by your post and don't know what you are refering to. If there is any new or interesting info worthy of inclusion in the Aaron Klug text then it can be included here. I don't know what you mean by facts, there are only points of view, we should always try to include all points of view in an article and support them with references. Alun 12:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Alun, words (almost) fail me! Do you know who Klug is in relationship to Franklin? Just as John Schmidt should be checking his Francis Crick article against the new Ridley biography, you should do the same - ie check your REF article against Klug's ONB article for obvious reasons!!

This is not a debate over semantics, your article apparently uses some but not all sources on Franklin, but you cannot grasp why Klug's article is so important? Start by checking the index in the Maddox biography, in case you have forgotten who Klug is and what he did. At the end of the day, Klug is an original source on REF and deserves far more respect as a former colleague, close friend, and Nobel Prize Winner - and yes, he is still working at the University of Cambridge. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Klug for more information...

IF you really do want to know a lot more about the true history of DNA at KCL, please try: www.pantadeus.zoomshare.com or e-mail publicationsz@zoomshare.com to find out how much a copy of "DNhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rosalind_Franklin&action=edit&section=18#A: Genesis of a Discovery" will cost you? My second copy arrived this morning by the way.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nitramrekcap (talk • contribs).

I think you are misunderstanding the methodology of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it's sources are there to provide verifiable support to the points of view contained within any given article. The criteria for inclusion include verifiability, which means that facts, from a Wikipedia point of view are anything that can be verified (remember verifiability not truth). We do not support one point of view over another, we may state that one point of view is more generally accepted than another, if a verifiable source can support that contention, but all significant points of view should be included in an article. So from this perspective, while Klug's essay can be used to verify information already contained within the article, and can certainly be used to verify any new information that is worthy of inclusion, we certainly cannot remove or replace material in the article that is already verified from another source just because Klug's essay may contradict it (and why would we, why accept the authority of one source over another?). Rather we would include Klug's information as well as keep any information already contained in the article. This is how we achieve neutrality. I know perfectly well who Klug is. I haven't found any particularly contradictory information in his essay to what is already in the RF article. I'll have a more detailed read of the essay when I get time. But I stress it would be a poor editor, and a breach of wikipedia policy, to give only a single point of view. I think the article is quite neutral at the moment, indeed I have worked hard to try to include all points of view, it's far from perfect. You seem to change your position from one extreme to another depending on what the last piece of literature you read was. I don't think there is really that much of a disagreement amongst those who are au fait with Franklin's work as to what her contribution actually was, or how important it was. Alun 13:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Alun,

Fundamentally where we seriously have to disagree is that I sincerely believe in reading ORIGINAL sources of information; I do not need read biographical articles of Franklin, Crick or anyone else for that matter which have been culled from limited sources, eg: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.78.92.137 (talk • contribs). and possibly the same contributor as 62.25.109.194 (talk • contribs) given the change to publicationsz@zoomshare.com [in the following edit]?

Both are User:Nitramrekcap I think. Alun 05:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Didn't you just explain that primary sources are not trust worthy above? re: Wilkins lapse to mention the year Randall spent at Cavendish. How about the disagreements in details between Watson and Crick? Who is correct? I think a well researched biography m,ay actually be more reliable than primary soruces themselves. it is clear there is a human tendancy to romanticise history. David D. (Talk) 18:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


I'm a little confused here, if we are discussing the Klug essay, then it is not a primary source, he gives a list of sources he has used for his essay, J. D. Watson, The double helix (1968) + A. Klug, 'Rosalind Franklin and the discovery of the structure of DNA', Nature, 219 (1968), 808-10, 843-4 + A. Klug, 'Rosalind Franklin and the double helix', Nature, 248 (1974), 787-8 + J. Glynn, 'Rosalind Franklin, 1920-1958', Cambridge women: twelve portraits, ed. E. Shils and C. Blacker (1996), 267-82 + A. Sayre, Rosalind Franklin and DNA (1978) + H. F. Judson, The eighth day of creation: the makers of the revolution in biology (1979) + personal knowledge (2004) + private information (2004) + CGPLA Eng. & Wales (1958) + Randall to Franklin, 4 Dec 1950, CAC Cam., Franklin MSS Archives CAC Cam., scientific corresp. and papers + priv. coll. Klug worked with Franklin only after 1953 and so was not involved in any of her work on coal or DNA. You also contrdict yourself, you have constantly made references to biographical material on this page and on others, how do you get any knowledge of any of the participants without refering to biographies? David D. makes a good point, we know that Watson's book The Double Helix is not a particularly reliable account of the discovery of the structure of DNA, and yet he must be one of the most authoritative sources by your reasoning. To produce a good article Wikipedia should use all sorts of sources, and in fact should present all points of view as neutrally as possible. Many of the sources on Farnklin repeat information available elsewhere, there is only so much information available and most of it has been covered ad nauseum by a plethora of different sources. If we used every available source to verify everything in the article, we would have a reference list about ten times longer than it already is. Alun 05:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


On a different note please do not remove text from the talk page (I've asked you not to do this before, as I have asked you to please sign on to your account and sign your posts properly, it's such a small thing, but not doing it appears to display contempt for other editors that you cannot be bothered to identify youself), it is considered bad form and is a breach of wikiquette. If you want to retract a statement you can strike it trough by adding <del>text here</del> which will be displayed thus text here. Alun 05:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

Alun, you do need to add this much overlooked publication to your three book 'bibiography':

  • Chomet, S. (Ed.), D.N.A. Genesis of a Discovery, (1994). Newman-Hemisphere Press: www.pantadeusz.zoomshare.com or e-mail: publications@zoomshare.com or phone/fax: 07092 060530

Equally some of the books listed under 'Further Reading' are in fact ESSENTIAL reading, eg by Freeland Judson/Olby etc for a fuller, overall understanding of the subject and her associates.

The new Bernal biography is another good source of relevant information on Rosalind Franklin.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.25.109.194 (talk • contribs).

User 62.25.109.194 (I am assuming you are User:Nitramrekcap if not the following still applies to your post), I don't need to do anything. Information in the article is verified from the three books in the bibliography and from other sources (noted in the references section), as you are well aware the bibliography is reserved only for those sources that are used a lot in the article (those concerned particularly with Franklin), the bibliography is there in order to dispense with the need to repeatedly write a full citation for these books in the references section, as this would consume too much space and be cumbersome (though the page numbers are given in the references section for each verified assertion). You continue in your delusion that this is a discovery of DNA article, I had thought I had cured you of this fantasy, and yet a year or so later it rears it's head again. I have not used the Chomet book for fact checking while writing the article, so it doesn't go in the bibliography section, it is, you will observe in the Further reading section, where it belongs. Chomet's work is not a book about Franklin, I'm sure there is information in it that would verify information in this article (but it would only serve as additional verification). There may even be some novel information in it that could be added to this article, which might provide a different point of view. But given that this article is about Franklin and not, as you seem to think, about the discovery of the structure of DNA, I have tried to stick to the basics in the article, I see no merit in going into detail about the discovery, this would overly lengthen what is an encyclopedia article and not a definitive work. Anyone who reads this article and is interested in reading further about Franklin or the discovery of DNA has plenty of choice in the Further reading, Bibliography and External links sections. How can we have an Essential Reading section? This is an encyclopedia not a classroom, people who come here want a concise biography of these people, not a lecture about what they should or shouldn't read. Alun 17:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Alun,

No wrong again my old friend in Finland! I am suffering from the apparent 'illusion' that your article is meant to be about the late Rosalind Franklin. (This is a none too subtle attempt at sarcasm by the way, or possibly irony.) Your so-called 'bibliography' of:


is totally and utterly INADEQUATE in my none too humble opinion; you may as well score it as : Feminist lobby = 2 vs. Non-Feminist Lobby*: 1 (*The latter is not fair on Wilkins of course.)

Much as I admire the Maddox biography (apart from its awful U.K. orange cover) I cannot and do see it as being the last word on the subject, however well written it is. IF you cannot see the overiding importance of adding more valuable material from other biographies, autobiographies, scientific histories, then it is a sad reflection on the amount of research which went into your article. There is no way that the above three books can ever best be described as a full 'bibliography' for a complete article on Rosalind Franklin.

The only book that is missing from the whole equation is a biography of Sir John Randall and unfortunately the would-be contributors to such a book have fallen or are falling by the wayside as time passes on. Seweryn Chomet's booklet helps to make up for inherent bias against KCL.

What impresses me about the Maddox book is the sheer quantity of contributors detailed in the Acknowledgements so many years after her death - which says a lot about the respect she (REF) commanded in the scientific community and the good use Maddox made of "Nature" magazine to obtain their contributions! Hidden in the small print at the back is the fact that she even used the MS of Wilkins' autobiography before it was actually published, not that it made much difference.

Sorry to say that you cannot 'rest on your laurels' as it were until the bibiography for the article consists of more than just those three books. John Schmidt has the same problem with the new Ridley biography of Crick, and even more so will have with the full length biography by Bob Olby. If you feel so passionately about REF, perhaps you could offer your services to Dr. Lynne Elkin for her own biography?

195.92.67.74

Martin, please be aware that wikipedia is a collaborative venture. If you feel that there is important or relevant information missing from the article that is provided in a source not used by the article then either point it out, add it or shut up. If any edit you make is the sort of gibberish you have included in the past I will revert it, I remember only too well the sort of crap edits you have made in the past, it amazes me that you are so hyper critical of others when your own ability is so lacking. Please be aware that I am in no mood to put up with the sort of shit you were peddling last autumn, if you display the sort of bullying, petulence (here) and personal abuse (here) you displayed then I shall simply ignore you, you are not in any authority here, throwing your weight about just makes you look like a small mean spirited little man. The three books in the 'Bibliography' are the ones used most extensively for the article, they are not the only sources used for the article (do you actually read the posts people make here, this is the second time I have had to tell you this). The Maddox and Sayre books are the only biographies of Franklin that I am aware of, if you would care to point out any other biographies of Franklin I would be happy to reference check them with the article. Please do not conflate your biased obsession with the discovery of DNA with a biographical article about Franklin. This article does not exist to provide a detailed account of the discovery of the structure of DNA, your bizarre belief that somehow it does doesn't affect this fact. There is no feminist perspective, the article is quite neutral in tone and I think it covers the basic facts about Franklin's career quite well. Alun 05:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
List of improvements (please add to this list be specific)
  1. It could do with a bit more information about her personal life.
  2. More about her time working on coal and graphite.
  3. The detail about whether she had the impression from Randall that she and Gosling alone would be working on the x-ray diffraction of DNA, this was certainly Wilkins's impression and that of Klug, and may have contributed to her perception of interference from Wilkins.
  4. Include a little bit about what Crick and Watson knew of Franklin's work (and where they got it) in winter of '52/'53.
  5. In the controversies section we could include some more of the information from the letters to Science in 1968.


Let's leave the last word(s) to Anne Piper and James Watson. Both of whom had first hand experience of the subject of course. Light on a Dark Lady by Anne Piper: Trends in Biochemical Sciences, 23:151-154 (1998).

Setting the record straight. In the last two paragraphs of the epilogue to the Double Helix, James Watson speaks of those whom he had mentioned:

All of those people, should they so desire, can indicate events and details they remember differently. But there is one unfortunate exception. In 1958, Rosalind Franklin died at the early age of thirty-seven. Since my initial impressions of her, both scientific and personal (as recorded in the early pages of this book), were often wrong, I want to say something here about her achievements. The X-ray work she did at King's is increasingly regarded as superb.The sorting out of the A and B forms, by itself, would have made her reputation; even better was her 1952 demonstration using Patterson superposition methods, that the phosphate groups must be on the outside of the DNA molecule. Later, when she moved to Bernal's lab, she took up work on tobacco mosaic virus and quickly extended our qualitative ideas about helical construction into a precise quantitative picture, definitely establishing the essential helical parameters locating the ribonucleic chain halfway out from the central axis. Because I was then teaching in the States, I did not see her as often as did Francis (Crick), to whom she frequently came for advice or when she had done something very pretty, to be sure he agreed with her reasoning. By then all traces of our early bickering were forgotten, and we both came to appreciate greatly her personal honesty and generosity, realising years too late the struggles that the intelligent woman faces to be accepted by a scientific world which often regards women as mere diversions from serious thinking. Rosalind's exemplary courage and integrity were apparent to all when, knowing she was mortally ill, she did not complain but continued working on a high level until a few weeks before her death. ~~mp81.78.94.219 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nitramrekcap (talk • contribs).
  • Since my initial impressions of her, both scientific and personal (as recorded in the early pages of this book), were often wrong
So Watson himself is of the opinion that The Double Helix is not a reliable source when it comes to Franklin. Thanks for tidying that up for us Martin. Alun
I've read the Double Helix, though many years ago. As I recall, the major problem with Watson's view of her was that he kept feeling she was being unreasonable in disagreeing strongly with some of his opinions, when, in fact, this was because he was... well... missing the some of the subtleties of the problem that were holding her back. It does play her role down a good deal, and I agree it's not a good primary source for her, but it'd be a useful secondary source to find out things like "4. Need to add more information about what Crick and Watson knew of Franklin's work (and where they got it) in winter of '52/'53." - as I recall, this is specifically mentioned in it.
If I can track down a copy again, I'll add bits in. Adam Cuerden 18:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Maybe not, Watson claimed in The Double Helix that Wilkins and Franklin didn't know that he had some of their data, but this seems to be a device to make his book more exciting, in fact Wilkins gave them much data of his own free will, and discussed DNA with them on numerous occasions. Watson had to admit in some letters to the journal Science in 1969 that his account in The Double Helix of how he and Crick obtained the data is flawed. The citation for the letters is number 78 in the list. Alun 06:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major sources section

Due to confusion over the purpose of the former Bibliography section, I have renamed the section to better reflect it's purpose. It exists in order to fully cite works that are given a brief but detailed page number citation in the references section. It's only purpose is to make it unecessary for a full cite of the source every time it is used in the article, as this would lead to an unecessarily long References section. Alun 07:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

James Watson's "The Double Helix" MUST by definition be treated as a MAJOR SOURCE by default, rather than mere "Further reading", as it is after all what Anne Sayre wrote her biography in direct response to? I do suggest that you cannot just have Anne Sayre as a major source, without including Watson's book - irrespective of your/anyone else's opinion of the content of the "The Double Helix". Watson's book comes in for a lot of unfair criticism (in my opinion) but it has been phenomenally successful; Alun, you really should read the Norton Critical edition for all the reviews of it (except for Chargaff's) but unfortunately it does not include Bernal's review either - which I will try to get the text of; in the meantime try reading the new Bernal biography! (If you cannot get it in Finland, I will try extracting its key facts for you, but would prefer that you interpolate them into the article rather than trying to myself!)

62.25.109.194mp62.25.109.194

Watson's book was not used as a source during fact checking, and is therefore not a major source of information. The reasons for using the Sayre and Maddox books is that they are the only comprehensive biographies of Franklin, the reason for using Wilkins's book is that he was actually at King's with Franklin and so had first hand experience of what actually happened there and of working with her. Watson was not at King's at the time, so his work is at best second hand. Watson's book is also a poor source (it seems not to be an accurate history of events) and I have treated it as unreliable for the purposes of this article. He did not work with Franklin at any institution as far as I am aware, and the information in his book is not relevant to an account of Franklin's life, he is not an authority on Franklin and this is not an account of the discovery of the structure of DNA. If you would like to go through the article checking the facts in the article against Watson's book and inserting the relevant references then please be my guest, I'm not sure there is any point. You seem to be incabable of understanding the simle fact that the books on this list are only those with multiple citations in the references list. This is not rocket science, it's a simple concept, try to understand it please. Alun 13:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Alun,

"You seem to be incabable of understanding the simle fact that the books on this list are only those with multiple citations in the references list." Perhaps these spelling errors don't help my understanding of what you are trying to say to me! But don't let your obvious prejudices against Watson get in the way of seeing it as source material for the REF article? You really do need far more than those three books as major sources, for a start Crick's "What Mad Pursuit" contains numerous valuable references to 'Rosy' so please don't just split hairs over him not working alongside her at KCL as he was a fellow scientist and a close friend (as was Odile, his wife) and 'Rosy' thought a lot of Crick, to put it mildly! We are not discussing caricatures of these people, but their real-life personalities - see above - and it is the science that really matters at the end of the day at Caltech, Cavendish, and KCL level -which is why you really do need to read Seweryn Chomet's delightful little booklet on KCL/DNA as soon as possible. 62.25.109.194MP62.25.109.194

Planet Earth calling Martin Packer. These books have not been used for the purposes of verification, I am not about to claim that they have been when anyone can see that they have not. If this offends you then it is your problem not mine. If you want to use these works for additional verification of the article, then please do so. I see no merit in overly lengthening the list of references, the article is fully referenced and verified. The works you are refering to might well be important for an article regarding the discovery of the structure of DNA, but they provide only limited information about the life of RF, she worked in King's on DNA only for a couple of years, it is hardly a major part of her life or career. I fail to see how these works are of much use to this article. I am not going to let you turn this article into one about Crick, Watson and the mythical race for DNA, it's about RF, plain and simple. RF's life was not just about DNA and it is patently absurd to try to claim that it was, these books are not about Franklin, they provide no additional information about her. I have tried to keep the sections about DNA as neutral and as brief as possible as I see no purpose in trying to turn it into a finger pointing excersise, this sort of thing has been done enough in other places. We have had this discussion again and again. I really do not see what your problem is. As it is I shall not be replying to any more of your bullying and apparently irrational demands, I see no point in repeating myself ad infinitum, you obviously do not get it. I am exasperated and not a little pissed off with your seeming incomprehension of what is a very simpe concept. You do not even seem to know youself which alternative source is indispensible, first it's Chomet, then it's Watson and now it's Crick. You have made no case as to how these works are relevant to Franklin's life. Crick's book is about his own career, Watson's is not a good source and Chomet's is a general book about the discovery of the structure of DNA. Your sole motive seems to be because of a fantacy that you have that Sayre and Maddox are somehow feminist books (apparently you hold this view simply because they both happen to be women) and that there is only one book in the section written by a man, so we need to even the ballance (your comment above: Feminist lobby = 2 vs. Non-Feminist Lobby*: 1). I can only describe this reasoning as absurd.

Alun 18:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Alun,

"1. Crick's book is about his own career, 2. Watson's is not a good source and 3. Chomet's is a general book about the discovery of the structure of DNA."

1. Not surprisingly as "What Mad Pursuit" is his own autobiography, but it contains valuable references to R.E. Franklin - in much the same way as Wilkins's autobiography does of course; I fail to see how you can justify including Wilkins, but exclude Crick - although I have no doubt that you can come up with an apparently sensible reason; see all my previous comments on Crick.

2. Yes it IS "a good source" of course, unless you are joking! So again, try justifying why you include Sayre's own response to "The Double Helix", but not "The Double Helix" itself? To have one without the other is illogical and had Watson - encouraged by Bragg Jnr. - not written "The Double Helix", then R.E. Franklin's well deserved scientific reputation would still be in total obscurity.

3. I don't think you actually have a copy my friend as there is no way it can best be described as 'a general book about the discovery of the structure of DNA', as it is a very useful booklet published in 1994 in an attempt to set the record straight for the Kings College London team, of which R.E. Franklin was briefly a leading member. You already know how to obtain a copy (above).

YOUR ARTICLE CAN ONLY GET BETTER IF YOU TRY TO USE A FAR LARGER NUMBER OF MAJOR SOURCES TO IMPROVE IT!!!

62.25.109.194MP62.25.109.194

As a relative outsider looking in on this debate, I can only come up with the familiar point- if you have problems with the article Martin, then edit it yourself. To refer to this or any other article as 'belonging' to anyone ('YOUR ARTICLE', above) betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy and practice. It is completely unacceptable to order other editors around in this manner. I also find it inexplicable and irksome (and I may not be the only one) that you persistently refuse to log in under your own account and instead edit from multiple IPs. Your supercilious and arrogant manner would be objectionable under any circumstances, but were it to be proven that you had some professional credentials (beyond an interest in the subject, which we all have, to a greater or lesser degree) one might be able to put up with it in the interests of improving the encyclopaedia. From a quick look around the web it does not strike me that you in fact have any such credentials or expertise. Can you please then either provide some evidence here, or otherwise provide some other reason why you feel yourself to be in a position to order other good-faith editors around? I can't see any at the moment- in fact, I am struggling to think of any acceptable explanation. Your edits to the main DNA articles seem to be minimal to non-existent; your insulting manner here is counterproductive, and frankly your edits on talk pages in general (for example, cut-and-pastes of book reviews from websites) are close to useless and certainly not in keeping with the utility and etiquette of Wikipedia talk pages. You seem to think that you are above these rules. Please explain why this is so. If you can't, then either edit the articles appropriately YOURSELF (I don't doubt your enthusiasm for a second) WITHOUT abusing other editors, or go away. Please note that the above is a general commentary on Martin's behaviour, and not a contribution to the content dispute. Badgerpatrol 15:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been watching with the same views. All this energy into talk pages. And, as yet, I still have no idea what exactly you think is missing from this article. It seems adequetly sourced to me, or should we use every book that references Franklin? I'm sure there are many of them. David D. (Talk) 15:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

'Badgerpatrol' and "David D.",

Far be it for me to argue the toss with someone seriously calling himself "Badgerpatrol", but here goes:

a. Alun is the self-appointed 'gatekeeper' to the Rosalind Franklin article and while I admire his tenacity and enthusiasm for the key subject (mine for Dr. Francis Crick pales into insignificance by comparison), the subject matter IS contensious - whether Alun likes it or not.

You cannot have a reasonable debate with someone unless you know ALL of the sources; it may have escaped your notice that I constantly bring other sources to his attention like the new Bernal biography and the 12 year old 'DNA' booklet edited by Seweryn Chomet of KCL.

I was intending to do something for Alun from the former, but he needs to buy his own copy of the latter to do real justice to the content. Just for the record pages 43 to 73 are an article called "X-ray diffraction studies of NaDNA with Rosalind Franklin" by R.E. Gosling. (There are other articles by Wilins, Stokes, and Wilson.)

b. There is almost an obsession with all the personalities involved which I find unacceptable from a purely scientific perspective; anyone fully familiar with the subject area thinks in terms of the structures rather than the people: i.e. Pauling and colleagues at Caltech, Bragg and colleagues at the Cavendish, Randall and colleagues at Kings College London. Yes, Rosalind Franklin was a 'difficult' person in a lot of respects but she worked with lots of other people in both Paris and London and related to them scientifically whether they commanded her full respect or not. There is almost a "Rosalind Franklin" personality cult developing of which this Wikipedia article is a leading exponent; at the end of the day what difference will it ever make to the life of James Watson or the immediate families of Francis Crick and Maurice Wilkins whether they and/or Franklin 'deserved' their shares of the 1962 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine or not - as you simply cannot re-write 1950's/1960's scienitific history from a different perspective in 2006. Yes, everyone takes the points made by Sayre and Maddox (and repeated almost ad nauseum by Alun) BUT 53 years on from 1953 the whole scientific world of molecular biology has moved on from it!

c. The whole article reeks of political correctness by its content and tone and its author takes me to task for referring to Franklin as a "lady"; I am absolutely sure that with her rather gentile, old-fashionned Jewish upbringing she would have been only too pleased to be referred to as a 'lady', rather than just as a so-called "woman".

Everthing in Maddox's biographer of her confirms her as being a Lady!

d. Finally "Badgerpatrol", I don't have 'multiple IP's" as I do occassionally surf the net at work which does not allow me to log in; neither do I have any 'sock puppets' as I think you call them!

By writing such an article on a contensious subject area, Alun offers himself up for robust criticism deserved or otherwise; personally if I were in his odd position (God forbid) I would go away, acquire some other major sources and think long and hard about what he has written and is so protective of AND check out the MSN biographical article* as a benchmark for comparative purposes. I rest my case - for the moment.

Nitramrekcap

  • "Martin"- as always, you have missed the point completely, or more likely you choose to deliberately ignore it. I can only presume that the above is intended to be some sort of parody. I repeat, this conversation is not a commentary on whatever content dispute you currently appear to be having. To me knowledge, no editor has appointed themselves 'gatekeeper' of this article, and nor should they. It is fundamental to the spirit of this project that no individual- with arguably one grudging exception- has any more right to edit a given article than any other. Once again, your attitude comes across as arrogant and supercilious. Again, once must assume that your experience and credentials are such that you feel that this approach of yours can be somehow be excused in the interests of the greater good. I must confess however, I see little obvious evidence of this. Perhaps you can enlighten us. I recommend that you take some time to familiarise yourself with Wikipedia policies, practice and etiquette- and then come back when and if you have learnt to treat your fellow editors with civility. No one has any divine right to "own" articles or to order other good-faith editors around- least of all someone like yourself whose actual encyclopaedic edits are minimal. As for the other issue- it isn't clear why you can't log in with your username and password from multiple machines. Presumably your workplace has software that disables cookies? If so, this is unfortunate but one would assume unavoidable, and certainly no blame can be attached to you. I should stress that it is up to whether you log in and use an account or contribute anonymously, although you do run the risk of appearing disingenuous if you persistently edit from multiple accounts. I am not accusing you of sockpuppetry. You seem to edit in (sometimes misguided) good-faith and your enthusiasm can hardly be doubted (as attested by your voluminous correspondence on these talk pages). What I am suggesting is that you change your attitude, which currently several users seem to find disagreable and counter-productive. Please take some time to consider this seriously. Badgerpatrol 01:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to point out here that there is no content dispute about the article, as far as I am aware. Martin has done this sort of thing before, made general attacks on this article (when it existed in a very different form) without pointing to any specific comment or change he would like to see made. It is almost impossible to make any changes that would be acceptable to Martin when it is unclear what the specific problem is. He seems to be offended that I have not used some of the sources he would like to see used, indeed they may contain some interesting and relevant information, but I doubt that they would be used for a multiplicity of cites, and so would not constitute Major sources in that sense. I cannot use sources that I do not posess, so to a certain extent the debate is pointless. If Martin posesses the relevant literature there is no reason why he cannot include the relevant information and verify it as per wikipedia policies on verifiability, neutrality and no original research. Martin has, in the past, violated all of these policies, having contacted people by email to get opinions that he has included here (OR), having on numerous occasions included his personal opinion as fact (POV) and having having rarely verified his edits. I have pointed these policies out to him on the talk page on numerous occasions, I have pointed him to the relevant policy pages, when he has refused to read the pages I have even given him a basic grounding in the policies on the talk page. At first I assumed that because he was a new user he just wasn't aware of these policies, but I subsequently realised that he just won't follow them, or even read them. Unfortunately he seems to believe that his opinion is the same as fact and has consistently behaved in his edits as if he is above these rules. As to Martin's comments above:

  • (a) I have developed a very short fuse with him and have reached the stage where I monitor edits to this page closely and revert any POV or unverified material as soon as I encounter it. I have also made two major edits of this article over the last year or so, this may be why Martin has the impression that I own this article, but I am only keeping Martins unverified and POV edits out, as I do with any other POV and unverified edit, it's just that Martin makes so many. I do not doubt Martin's knowledge in this field, but I do not think he is at all concerned with neutrality or verification, indeed I think that Martin wants this article to represent his view of events in 1951-53 rather than it being an actual biographical article about Franklin.
  • (b) I have tried very hard to keep personalities out of the article and have attempted to make it as neutral as possible, concentrating on what is known rather than trying to guess what peoples motives or feelings may or may not have been. Whether I have been successful is a matter of opinion, I'm sure there is room for improvement.
  • (c) I am unsure of what Martin means by political correctness, to me it means fair and so I will take it as a compliment, what is the alternative? To be politically incorrect, something like Franklin made some contributions to science but they can't be important because she was just a woman. This accusation is just the usuall non-specific complaint I have come to expect from Martin.
  • (d) Martin refuses to log on to his user account, I would estimate that about 95% of his edits and posts have been from anonymous IP addresses, this is very frustrating for other editors, I have asked him to log on to his account on numerous occasions, he has never given a reason for not doing so before. Be that as it may there is no reason why he cannot identify himself with [[User:Nitramrekcap]] (which would be displayed as User:Nitramrekcap) when he signs posts, even if he isn't logged on to his account.

Here is a list of some of Martin's edits so you are in no doubt as to why I monitor him closely:

POV edits:

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]

Repeated attempts to mention the Nobel Prize and other members of the King's team in the introduction to the article:

[10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26]

Pasting copyrighted material directly into the article and his response to it's removal (where he claims incorrectly that the material is an obituary in The Times by Aaron Klug, even though the material makes mention of the Nobel Prize of 1962 and gives the date of her mother's death as 1976):

[27] [28]

Detailed and irrelevant discussion about Bragg's involvement with Nobel Prize nomination of Wilkins (under a section about recognition of Franklin):

[29]

Erroneous assertion that the Cavendish and Crick and Watson were being funded by the MRC to investigate the structure of DNA (their funding was for work on proteins):

[30]

Incorrect assertion that the Crick and Watson model for DNA is called the W-C-M-F model at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory (referring to it as the with the M for "Maurice" and the F for "Franklin).

[31]

Including commercial advertising:

[32]

Unexplained removal of verified quote contributed by User:PM Poon and PM Poon's response on my talk page after I tried to make the tone more neutral:

[33] [34]

Including comments to other editors on the article page rather than the talk page.

[35]

This list is far from complete as I do not know all of the IP addresses Martin uses, but I hope it gives a flavour of the quality of Martin's editing. I find it offensive that he has much to say about the quality of my work, when it is apparent that his work does not comply with even the basic standards of wikipedia editing. I am under no illusion that I am anything but an interested amateur, but I do try to comply with wikipedia rules regarding neutrality, verification and original research. Martin has also been personally abusive to me on the talk pages, on more than one occasion stating that he thinks I am mentally ill, and that I am Rosalind Franklin's stalker. I make no apology for removing poor work from this article, left to Martin this article would hardly mention Franklin at all, it would be about Crick, Watson, Wilkins, Randall, Bragg and Pauling and the race for the structure of DNA. Alun 09:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Addendum: I would like to point out that a look a the above edits by Martin will show that most are not in fact about Franklin at all. They mainly concern Crick, Watson, Wilkins, Randall or others. Martin has said many times that he thinks that Franklin has had far more credit than she deserves for her contribution to the structure of DNA, and he has made a habit of constantly putting the names of other people from King's in prominent places in the article so as to give them greater exposure, he seems not to appreciate that this article is actually about Franklin and not about the King's team. More recently Martin has swung the other way and is continually refering to Franklin's major contribution or large contribution to the determination of the structure. I take exception to this also, it is not for editors to make this sort of value judgement, we should provide all points of view in a neutral and verified way and allow the readers of the article to draw their own conclusions. Alun 15:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Alun, I am amazed that you take me so 'obsessively' seriously; you should put more of your obvious enthusiasm and energy into further research for the article, e.g. Chomet on KCL/DNA, Brown on Bernal, Hunter on Bragg etc etc; you should review the MSN biographical article on Franklin against 'your' article; and above be far more dispassionate about me and much more interested in improving the article - using all available "major resources", and not just the Sayre/Maddox biographies - including James Watson's "The Double Helix", whatever its limitations - it is a first hand account! 217.134.252.114 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by nitramrekcap (talk • contribs).
Martin, you seem incapable of understanding that you are being asked to do this yourself if you feel it needs doing. You do not seem capable of either articulating what changes you would like to see made to the article, nor indeed of making any changes yourself. As it stands you need to either do it youself or stop wasting space on the talk page. Be aware that I will revert any unverified, POV or OR you include. Alun 11:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
As for and above be far more dispassionate about me, how can I be dispassionate about you when you are personally abusive, do you consider your offensive posts dispassionate? and much more interested in improving the article, I have put more time and effort into this article than any other editor, possibly more than all other editors combined, I have verified all of my edits and have been as neutral as possible. To imply that I of all people am not interested in improving the article displays a breathtaking contempt for my hard work and is deeply insulting and offensive. There is a big difference between the article before and after I did the last major edit, I hope this shows just how interested I have been in improving the article. [36] Alun 15:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Randall's letter to Franklin

"3. More detail about whether she had the impression from Randall that she and Gosling alone would be working on the x-ray diffraction of DNA, this was certainly Wilkins's impression and that of Klug, and may have contributed to her perception of interference from Wilkins."


From the Maurice Wilkins article: "Late in 1950, Randall wrote to Franklin to inform her that rather than work on protein, she should take advantage of Wilkins's preliminary work and that she should do X-ray studies of DNA fibers made from Signer's DNA." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nitramrekcap (talk • contribs).

Do you have a point about the article? Alun 13:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

removed personal abuse. Alun 18:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Randall's letter dated 4 December 1950 is fully described on pages 144 to 150 of Maurice Wilkins' excellent autobiography, not so much an "impression" (whatever that is supposed to mean) but an actual letter...Incidentally Alun, I saw Maddox's biography in paperback the other day; both books are easily available on www.abebooks. co.uk! I got OUP to correct their description of the obsequies invitation in the paperback of Wilkins' book by changing "Bessel" to "Besselised" and adding both 'R.E. Franklin' and 'R.G. Gosling'... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nitramrekcap (talk • contribs).

Do you have a point about the article? What are you talking about? What impression where? Your post seems to be irrelevant to any matter in hand. Alun 18:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I recommend ignoring Martin's 'input' unless and until he responds appropriately to the points made above. Badgerpatrol 18:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Alun, I assumed that YOU are the author of the 5 points at the top of this page, the third of which is: "3. More detail about whether she had the impression from Randall that she and Gosling alone would be working on the x-ray diffraction of DNA, this was certainly Wilkins's impression and that of Klug, and may have contributed to her perception of interference from Wilkins." Randall's letter dated 4 December 1950 would have given her more than an 'impression'!

See:

List of improvements (please add to this list be specific)

Add more information about her personal life. more detail on her time working on coal and graphite. More detail about whether she had the impression from Randall that she and Gosling alone would be working on the x-ray diffraction of DNA, this was certainly Wilkins's impression and that of Klug, and may have contributed to her perception of interference from Wilkins. Need to add more information about what Crick and Watson knew of Franklin's work (and where they got it) in winter of '52/'53. Include more information from the letters to Science in 1968. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nitramrekcap (talk • contribs).

Do you have a point about the article? This makes no reference to the article, it seems little more than petty nitpicking about wording on the to do list, rather than any attempt to improve the article. There is an element of doubt as to what Randall wanted and he was not explicit in what he expected of either Wilkins or Franklin. Randall's letter does not state that Franklin and Gosling would be working alone on the x-rays of DNA, it states that they alone would be performing the experimental work. Wilkins states that he had assumed that he would be fully involved in collaborating on data interpretation and elucidation of the structure, some argue that Franklin thought that the letter implied that she and Gosling alone would be working on the x-rays alone. These are different interpretations of Randall's intentions. Randall seems not to have cleared this up, and it seems that much of the bad feeling between Franklin and Wilkins may have been due to this. So yes it is an implication in the letter. But it is more than just the letter, Wilkins states that at this time he had the impression that Randall was trying to move him away from DNA work and we don't know what Franklin knew or didn't know, there's a great deal of speculation. I have avoided this in the article for the reason that it brings in so many issues to do with personality and guess work. We don't know what Randall said to Franklin, we don't know what he intended and we don't know how Franklin interpreted the letter. Both Maddox and Wilkins state that Franklin may have had the impression that Wilkins was not going to do any x-ray DNA work, but we don't know this for sure.
This means that as far as the experimental x-ray effort is concerned there will be at the moment be only yourself and Gosling.
I am in two minds about this information. I'm not sure how relevant it is to the article, it might be better to include it in the King's College (London) DNA Controversy article, its inclusion would require quite a bit of detailed explanation of the POVs taken by Wilkins, Maddox and Sayre and possibly others. This is a Franklin encyclopedia article we can't include every detail or we'll end up with a book sized article. Alun 05:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Alun, just to keep the events of early 1953 in perspective: "..in the weeks of February 1953, when vast areas of East Anglia were under the worst floods the area had ever known. Sea defences from Lincolnshire to Kent had collapsed: 280 drowned, 13,000 were evacuated, people hung in trees and sat on roofs awaiting rescue." (Quotation from Joan Bakewell's autobiography.)

The usual cliches about 1953 involve the Coronation and Mount Everest, but the weather was having a disastrous effect on England, but some Cambridge undergraduates assisted in the rescue efforts! Crick, Watson and Wilkins cannot be blamed (retrospectively) for all of this bad weather!

81.78.65.243mp81.78.65.243

[edit] Article needs infobox?

Does this article need Template:Infobox Scientist ?

62.25.109.194mp62.25.109.194

Yes it does! See:

{{Infobox_Scientist | name = (Insert name of scientist, mathematician or engineer) | image = (Insert *.jpg image preferably at 300px) | caption = (Insert photograph caption. Try to include date of photo and the photographer) | birth_date = (Insert date of birth: month, day, year) | birth_place = (Insert place of birth: town, city, country) | death_date = (Insert date of death: month, day, year) | death_place = (Insert place of death: town, city, country) | residence = (Insert countries where scientist has lived. If some are minor, select key countries) | nationality = (Insert nationality of scientist) | field = (State if they are a physicist, chemist, biologist, mathematician, engineer....) | erdos_number = (Insert Erdos number) | work_institution = (Insert key companies and/or universities where they are/were employed) | alma_mater = (Insert universities where they obtained their degrees) | doctoral_advisor = (Insert doctoral advisor. If only to masters level, then use masters advisor) | doctoral_students = (If any, insert their key doctoral students. Does not have to be exhaustive) | known_for = (Insert key topics/areas of science that made them famous) | societies = (Insert scientific societies where they have risen to level of Fellow) | prizes = (Insert notable prizes and medals) | spouse = (Insert spouse(s) and year(s) of marriage) | children = (Insert names of children) | religion = (Insert religious belief system/affiliation) | handedness = (Insert if they are left or right handed or ambidextrous) | website = (Insert a homepage (if alive) or a key informative website (if now dead)) | footnotes = (Insert any extra details here) }}

This succinct summary looks very good on the FRANCIS CRICK article, so why not follow suite?

ps I gave my daughter a paperback copy of Maddox on Franklin yesterday as required reading before she goes to Bristol University at the end of this month: a good role model!

62.25.109.194mp62.25.109.194

This infobox has been nominated for deletion, and at present it looks like there are more votes for deletion than for keeping. If it's deleted it can no longer be used on any article. See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Infobox_Scientist. Cheers, Alun 09:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Alun, I trust you found the Klug piece from BBC Radio Four interesting? I re-read Maddox On Frankin at the weekend, having drawn my daughter's attention to the top of page 69! Maddox thinks Wilkins and Crick met at the Admiralty in WWII, but she is wrong and Hunter (on Bragg) apparently repeated her mistake for good measure. You never did tell me what you thought of Ridley on Crick ("now available at all good bookshops", sorry 'Badgerpatrol'!), any comments? Martin

ps You might find this letter from Professor Robert Olby from the LRB interesting, following his review of Maddox's biography of Franklin? I assume you have read Bob's review in the LRB.

Unfair to Rosalind Franklin From Robert Olby

"In her response to my review of Brenda Maddox's Life of Rosalind Franklin, Barbara Low (Letters, 17 April) focuses on the ethics of Watson and Crick's use of Franklin's DNA data, whereas I concentrated on Maddox's achievement - in what is, after all, not a scientific biography - in bringing Franklin's personality into view. I did, however, criticise Maddox for expressing too much confidence in Patterson analysis. Well-informed statements of the limitations of the method exist in the literature of X-ray crystallography, but one would not expect the general reader to have encountered them. I did not write that Franklin 'did not know how to interpret her own data', but I did try to point out the clues that were available in those data.

Robert Olby University of Pittsburgh"

62.25.109.194mp62.25.109.194

[edit] Proceedings of the Royal Society in 1954

http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/(byuu1iz24qxbuby4yu3etcbm)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,7,10;journal,726,1018;linkingpublicationresults,1:120148,1

or start at: www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/archive and go via their Crick link! The link to 'Franklin' is of course to Benjamin, not Rosalind!!

217.134.247.11mp217.134.247.11217.134.247.11

[edit] Brenda Maddox's review of Matt Ridley's biography of Crick

See: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2102-2353754,00.html

[and not a word about the 'cause celebre' in the whole review!)

217.134.242.94mp217.134.242.94

[edit] To do list

See:

List of improvements (please add to this list be specific)

"1. Add more information about her personal life. 2. more detail on her time working on coal and graphite. 3. More detail about whether she had the impression from Randall that she and Gosling alone would be working on the x-ray diffraction of DNA, this was certainly Wilkins's impression and that of Klug, and may have contributed to her perception of interference from Wilkins. 4. Need to add more information about what Crick and Watson knew of Franklin's work (and where they got it) in winter of '52/'53. 5. Include more information from the letters to Science in 1968."

Does the article really need the above reminder of its apparent shortcomings? Surely all it needs is more in-depth research from a variety of resources? Who (anonymously) is the author of this To Do List and why does he feel the urge to share it with the rest of the global Wikipedia readership? Someone (our old friend "Badgerpatrol"?) said no one 'owns' an article, but surely this is contradicted by the sense of ownership implicit in the To Do List? Over to its 'Welsh' author?

62.25.109.194mp62.25.109.194

As I have stated elsewhere, I humbly suggest that other editors ignore this individual in the hopes that it may encourage him to a) learn some manners; b) take the time to familiarise himself with even the most basic Wikipedia rules, guidelines, and etiquette, of which he is ignorant (and, I suspect, obtusely so). Badgerpatrol 20:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Ignorant is correct. I am the author, see the history. To do lists are normal on article talk pages in wikipedia. It has nothing to do with ownership and a lot to do with communication with other authors. David D. (Talk) 02:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Nobel Prize

I believe that the "Nobel Prize" section goes to great lengths to defend Watson and Crick's Nobel Prize awards, perhaps at the expense of keeping the focus properly on Rosalind. Arguments for why their prizes were deserved (by implication moreso than Rosalind) do not belong in an article discussing her life and accomplishments. If the section were titled "Nobel Prize Controversy", this might be more appropriate. However, information about these other scientists larger body of work should be confined to their Wikipeida articles, not Rosalind's. To those who may feel Rosalind was denied recognition, it borders on offensive and sexist to take up space in her article to prop up the superiority of those who benefitted from her research! 207.67.145.182 00:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a reasonable point. I'd say this though. There has been much crap talked about Franklin and the Nobel Prize. The fundamental truth is that she could not have been awarded it because she was dead. The other point is that Crick, Watson and Wilkins had been working on nucleic acids for nigh on ten years when they got the prize. Whethet they deserved t was a question for the Nobel Prize committee, I think there has been much uninformed opinion that somehow Franklin should have qualified fot the prize. Even had she been alive it is unlikely that she would have been considered, she worked on nucleic acids for a very short time, and certainly had not ammassed the body of work in the field that Crick, Watson and Wilkins had. You will observe that the section on the Nobel Prize comes in a section about controversies after her death. There were no controversies about Franklin when she was alive. Indeed there weren't any during the Nobel Prize. The controversies surrounding Franklin seem to mainly stem from the distorted picture given of her in Watson's book, and Anne Sayres subsequent publication of her biography of Franklin in order to set the record straight. Indeed we might be thankful for Watson's harshness, because without it this remarkable woman may have remained one of the many unsung heroes of academic science, rather than an inspirational figure to many. The section about controversies that arose after her death is there because these are real issues relating to Franklin. But it needs to be told in a ballanced light, that means that we need to make reference to the fact that there was far more to the Nobel Prize than some excellent x-ray pictures and some model building in 1953. The prize is usually given for a substantial body of work, and not for a single discovery, the three recipients met that criterion whereas Franklin wouldn't have met it even had she been alive, she had not worked on nucleic acids for quite some time before her death and had ammassed an excellent body of work relating to virus structure. I think the article covers this rather neglected part of her career quite well. Alun 01:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with that, sadly. Franklin wasn't denied the prize because she was a woman- she was denied the prize because she was dead, although we may debate whether or not she would have recieved it anyway (whether she was discriminated against in general because she was female is another matter- in fact IMHO she probably was). Badgerpatrol 02:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Undoubtedly she was discriminated against because she was a woman. Probably no more so than any other woman in a British university at the time. I got the impression from Maddox that what she really hated was that she wasn't taken seriously. I also got the impression that this may have been due to her experiences in Paris. In Paris women were the intellectual and social equals to men, this seems not to have been the case in London (or the UK as a whole) at the time. So in certain respects she had become used to being treated as an equal, and the contrast was quite stark. It is also clear that her parents were very egalitarian, and encouraged their daughters to excell just as much as their son (a comendible and unusual attitude in 1920s bourgeois London). There is also the example of the public school she went to, which also fostered independence, another unusual environment for a young girl at the time (and another testament to the progressive attitude of her parents). This upbringing seems to have produced a young woman that would not be patronised or talked down to. Essentially a stong and independent minded person, who would not be bullied simply by dint of her gender. She was herself quite left wing, something she had in common with Maurice Wilkins, indeed it is quite strange that they did not get along well together, in many respects they were similar. It seems that Franklin may have also been something of a snob (according to Maddox), which seems strange given her political leanings (though we are all full of contradictions, it's the human condition). Personally I find her strenth of charachter one of the most appealing facets of her personality, and it is one of the main reasons why I think she is such an exceptional person, besides the fact that she was also highly intelligent and an exceptional scientist. I suspect that Maddox is quite right when she implies that, had she lived, she may well have received a Nobel Prize for some other work, rather than from DNA. The real tradgedy is that of the human tragedy of any young life cut short. Alun 22:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sainthood beckons?

62.25.109.194mp62.25.109.194

Nah, they'll never make Alun a saint- he's an anarchist for goodness' sake....nonetheless, for what he puts up with, I'd be inclined to nominate him myself. Badgerpatrol 13:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Ho Ho Ho, that's really funny (not) "Badgerpatrol"; Alun is a candidate for martydom in my opinion as he seems determined to sacrifice his sanity on the altar of St. Rosalind of DNA [sic).

While I admire his tenacity on the subject, I suspect he has long since lost the objectivity necessary to produce a really first class article; just compare Franklin's article to Crick's to see what I mean. I strongly suggest that all this debate would not have taken place at all if she hadn't have died of cancer in 1958 and been subsequently 'wronged' in Watson's "The Double Helix". Yes, she really is the Sylvia Plath of Molecular Biology - thanks to people like Alun.

Surely it's about time this was either acted on or removed? It does little or nothing other than to proclaim the apparent shortcomings of the article, so why bother to include it?

"List of improvements (please add to this list be specific)

Add more information about her personal life. more detail on her time working on coal and graphite. More detail about whether she had the impression from Randall that she and Gosling alone would be working on the x-ray diffraction of DNA, this was certainly Wilkins's impression and that of Klug, and may have contributed to her perception of interference from Wilkins. Need to add more information about what Crick and Watson knew of Franklin's work (and where they got it) in winter of '52/'53. Include more information from the letters to Science in 1968."

Yours, "A Badger Lover" (but usually only dead ones) 195.92.168.165

Well Martin, we may all have our little sexual peccadillos, but I think advertising the fact that you undertake in necrophilic acts with badgers is a little beyond the pale, personally. Nonetheless, whatever turns you on. "Proclaiming the shortcomings of an article" (in a sensible and constructive way) is very much what talk pages are for, although you seemingly prefer to use them for personal attacks and bizarre promotions of forthcoming books. These "to do" lists are common and are useful pointers to help aid the improvement of an article. If you had bothered your bum to learn anything at all about Wikipedia, you would know that by now. The suggested improvements are eminently sensible. Thanks as always for your tremendously insightful and rational comments, Badgerpatrol 18:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Martin, did you read what Alun wrote above? He specifically outlines why should would NOT have won the Nobel prize even if she had been alive. Hardly a Sylvia Plath since he does not seem to be heaping undue praise. Or maybe i am missing your point completely, what is your point? What exactly do you think is wrong with the article? Despite much written on this talk page I am still in the dark with regard to the specifics of what you find wrong with the article. If you don't feel comfortable making the changes yourself then write out the specific changes/additions on this talk page. Then others can add them. At present your comments are too vague to act on. David D. (Talk) 18:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Talking of "bizarre promotions of forthcoming books", surely the portrait of "St. Rosie" (as used in the article) is the cover of Brenda Maddox's book ie ADVERTISING? The actual photograph is probably someone's COPYRIGHT! As for 'forthcoming books' (sic), Matt Ridley's biography of Francis Crick has come and gone in both the US and UK but was slaughtered in Horace Freeland Judson's recent review in "Nature" (Vol. 443, 26 October 2006). The only other book I have ever referred to on 'Wackypedia' (geddit?) is the next, full length, scientific biography of Crick - with which I am proud to be remotely associated. Must get back to the dead badgers (mmm road kill = delicious!) 195.92.168.165mp195.92.168.165

Please see Fair Use. In American copyright law (and wiki servers are in the USA) there is the concept of fair use (we have a similar, though more restricted concept in the UK Fair Dealing, it's what allows us to use short quotes from copyright material). Fair use allows us to use low resolution images from music album or book covers to illustrate a point related to the article. That's why it's a book cover, otherwise it might well be a violation of copyright, this si why the original picture was removed, though it was taken from a journal cover (Tibs I think) it was just a detail and was not obviously from the cover of a journal. It was a toss up between this picture or the one on the cover of Anne Sayre's book, though they have the same picture anyway. So anyway there is a reason for it being a book cover, it's that or no pic at all. Ciao. PS, Martin can never fully express just what it is about the article that he thinks needs improving. I have had the same conversation with him over and again. I think fundamentally he just doesn't think Franklin should have an article. I also think there might be a touch of hurt pride there as well because he sees himself as an expert. Alun 19:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I think Martin is correct here. Fair use in this case would mean the picture can be used on the wikipedia article of the book itself, only. David D. (Talk) 19:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh well I though the lisence would cover it. Never mind, we are left with no picture. Alun 19:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I think we'll have to find another one, although the intricacies of fair use are a bit fiddly, I doubt if it can be employed here. Shouldn't be too hard however. Badgerpatrol 19:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Alun, no I have definately NOT an expert but an over-enthusiastic reader/researcher of the classic DNA period and one of my favourite books is Maddox on Franklin, a copy of which I gave - in paperback - to my daughter when she started at university, not only as a role model but also for page 69, first paragraph, first three sentences.
So there you have it, I am a closet fan of the late Rosalind Franklin! What I cannot and never will accept is the mythology built up around her making her the so-called "Sylvia Plath of Molecular Biology". As for your - yes 'your' - article where do I start? I would rather not try - to be honest with you - other than to recommend you using all the available resources, not just your favourite few! Make your own comparison with John Schmidt's article on Francis Crick and work it out for yourself.. you don't need me to help you!
IF I haven't sent you the Horace Freeland Judson review of Matt Ridley's biography of Crick, I will do - but just think how Matt must feel being 'pilloried' in front of the global scientific community? On the other hand, you may just have something in common...Keep up the good work in Finland "Taffy"! 195.92.168.163mp195.92.168.163
My Dad bought me a kettle when I started at university, although I had asked for a Nintendo. I got over it in the end; hopefully your daughter can put her bitterness aside one day, as I have had to. As always Martin, put up or shut up. Since you are "an over-enthusiastic reader/researcher of the classic DNA period" you should have a lot to contribute, beyond personal attacks. If you see problems with the article, change them and add to it. Alun doesn't claim to own this article, and nor does anyone else. You are the only one who thinks that way. Badgerpatrol 19:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The Francis Crick article is excellent since JW started working on it. This isn't a competition, JW is an excellent editor and I greatly admire his work. Indeed he has praised my work on this article. We have even traded Barnstars. Look here's where I keep my DNA Barnstar, of which I am very proud. Alun 07:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
The new portrait of Rosalind Franklin is terrible in my opinion as it does not resemble any of the photographs of her! Surely there must be a non-copyright image of her out on the internet somewhere?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rosalind_Franklin.jpg

Has someone literally taken my jibe about "St. Rosalind of DNA" so seriously and deliberately chosen this dreadful looking picture?

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Before I receive the usual chorus of self-righteous criticism from all concerned, let me share this very important image with you all:

http://www.olamgadol.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Willesden%20Cemetery%20Rosalind%20Franklin.jpg

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ps Search on google images to find a better non-copyright image?

pps See also: http://www.wyllieohagan.com/2005/1a_news_detail.php?id=35

God help us if we had to rely on artists to interpret the history and philosopy of science to us! As a friend of mine says 'Enough!'

...but if you haven't had enough of the ongoing debate, try this:

www.smh.com.au/.../2002/11/01/1036027034461.html

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[edit] Remove abuse

Anyone care to remove the "SO SO SAD" from the first paragraph of the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.106.111.10 (talk • contribs) 19:36, 25 October 2006.

Well it has already been removed. But don't worry, this sort of minor vandalism (or experimental edit) is quite common, but tends to get reverted before long. You could actually edit the article page and fix it yourself as easily as editing this talk page - Be bold. -- Solipsist 20:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I have reverted this edit [37], it claims that the rule forbidding postumous nominations for the Nobel was instituted in 1974, in which case Franklin was eligible. Many people. including Maddox have made this point about Franklin's ineligibility, no one has made this claim before as far as I know. It may or may not be true, I don't know, but it would be odd for the fact to have been omited from several biographies. Still it may be true, unfortunately the anonymous editor who made the edit did not provide a cite, and I think that is essential if such a big change is to be made. Anyone fancy going and checking this out? Alun 08:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested alternative image for the article

http:www.packer34.freeserve.co.uk/FranklinSMILING.jpg

or see it on:

http://www.packer34.freeserve.co.uk/rememberingfranciscrickacelebration.htm

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But is it available? David D. (Talk) 20:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes! 195.92.168.163mp195.92.168.163
Then lets use it. Obviously a bit small but better than the artist impression. Martin, is there a higher resolution version available? David D. (Talk) 23:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Don't we need to check the copyright status? Who took the picture and when? Even snapshots are copyright aren't they? I thought copyright was automatic. We need to check who took it and if it is in the public domain. I hate all this copyright guff, generally I think copyright ownership is daft, or at least lasts far too long, on the other hand wikipedia only needs to be prosecuted successfully once to go belly-up so we do need to be careful. I rather like the added colour the painting gives, though one could argue it's not a great likeness. I'd still suggest keeping the painting and using this photograph as well, if we can. Alun 07:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for that Alun. If the photo is copywrite free or permission granted for use here, consider moving the portrait to either the section: Posthumous recognition or Recognition of her contribution to the model of DNA. SionBrown
Yes, it would be useful if we had a few more details- who took it, where, when and most importantly, what is the copyright status of the image? I don't think we are going to get away with fair use here since it's a reasonable shout that a totally free image of Franklin may be available (and this may well be one, but it would be good to have details re licensing etc). However, I know v. little about copyright law (especially Florida copyright law, which I think is operational in this circumstance). Badgerpatrol 14:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Martin's pic looks like a detail from a snapshot, from a conference or something? The original might be in Maddox's book. She has quite an extensive list of sources for images at the end of her book. I'll check the book for the image when I get time and see if she sources it. Alun 08:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Gosh Martin's website is a real mess. Anyway the picture is a detail from a picture that occurs in "Dark Lady" with the caption "Bare-legged Rosalind with collegues in Lyons, 1949. It is attributed to Rachel Glaeser. But this photograph is of extremely poor quality. Alun 13:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contribution to DNA

Propose the following addition to clarify Franklin's data as a key contribution to the DNA model. I think it important to make brief mention here, with detail controversy below. The present text implies watson & crick did their work from "similar data".

"The upshot of all this was that when Francis Crick and James Watson started to build their model in February 1953 they were working with very similar data to those available at King's and had seen Franklin's key X-ray diffraction data. Watson (1968) later admitted that: "Rosy, of course, did not directly give us her data. For that matter, no one at King's realized they were in our hands."[1], [2] Rosalind Franklin was probably never aware that her work had been used during construction of the model.[3] " DLH 22:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Watson's book is not a good source. Indeed at the very begining of his book he claims as much himself, I don't have it to hand as I'm not at home but he says something along the lines that the book should not be taken as an historically accurate account of events. In truth we do not know whether Franklin was aware that Watson and Crick had seen her data. We certainly do know that the group at King's definitely did know that Crick and Watson had access to Franklin's work. Indeed it was Wilkins himself who showed Watson the photograph. This is basically what happened: When Franklin was leaving she left a great deal of her work at King's, indeed there was probably little point in taking it with her, King's was carrying on with the X-ray work, why shouldn't she leave her results there? Gosling gave the photograph (51) to Wilkins, as Gosling said Maurice had every right to that photograph (I don't think Franklin would have disagreed with this comment, this is why the picture was left there). Wilkins showed the photograph to Watson sometime in December 1952 (I think he was attending a meeting at King's, where Franklin was presenting some of her work, so Watson had direct access to these talks anyway). Watson made a sketch of the photograph from memory on the train back to Cambridge and showed it to Crick who was able to draw several observations from it. The problem with any deconstruction of Watson's version of events is that; firstly he doesn't actually claim to be giving an historically accurate account, secondly if we include Watson's version then we have to give the other version of events, which is consistent in both Maddox's and Wilkins's books, that Wilkins showed the photograph to Watson. There is even a third version of events where Wilkins is shown entering Franklin's office and taking the photograph from a draw in her cabinet. This version appeared on a television programme and Wilkins specifically mentions it in his book because he was so upset by being portrayed in such a manner.
The other information that Crick and Watson had access to was a report for the MRC that Perutz (Crick's PhD supervisor) had in his capacity as a member of an MRC committee. Perutz allowed Crick access to the report that Franklin had contributed to. Crick had not seen much of this information, but it had all been made available at numerous seminars, meetings and conferences. Indeed Watson had attended a meeting at which Franklin had presented these results, but Watson was not au fait with much of the technical information and misunderstood much of the information presented. Nothing underhand was actually done, though Perutz said later that, with the benefit of experience he would not have allowed access to the report to a student. But in actuality there was no information in the report that Crick and Watson could not have had access to a year or so earlier, this was not the only source of this information.
This article is about Franklin, the section about controversies deals with events after her death, this version of events certainly belongs there, if it belongs in the article at all. My worry is that if we try to include too much of this sort of information, given WP:NPOV, which states that all points of view should be given, we will end up with an article largely about the controversy and not one about Franklin. I think it is accurate to claim that Crick and Watson were working with basically the same material as the people at King's (this is fair because it clearly shows that a model was achievable with this infromation, had King's had the foresight to build one). I think there has been much written about how they gained this information, but there are many sources that are not reliable.
It would be good to try to include some information regarding the MRC report, especially from the letters to Science that Perutz, Watson and Wilkins wrote in 1968, inclusion of this information could expand the section considerably, which is probably why it hasn't been done yet. These letters clearly show that Watson's version of events is unreliable. I can't help but stress that all of the controversies derive from 10 years after Franklin's death, and much of the controversy is because of inacuracies in Watson's book (even though he clearly states at the start that it is not an accurate account). There's a ballance to be struck here between concentrating on Franklin's life, and including information about the controversies, that did make her famous, but also started 10 years after she had died, there was no controversy while she was alive, and she never made any claims regarding authorship of the Crick and Watson paper. Equally there was no controversy regarding her when the Nobel Prize was awarded to Crick, Watson and Wilkins. I suggest we include this information in the King's College DNA controversy where we certainly can include all relevant points of view, including Wilkins's and Maddox's version of events. Alun 07:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Wobble/Alun, can you please try reading:

Chomet, S. (Ed.), "D.N.A. Genesis of a Discovery", (1994): £10.50

Newman-Hemisphere Press 101 Swan Court, London SW3 5JJ

or www.pantadeusz.zoomshare.com or e-mail: publications@zoomshare.com or phone/fax: 07092 060530

as it might give you a much needed sense of perspective about KCL and DNA? But be quick as there are only a limited number of copies left!

195.92.168.170mp195.92.168.170


Having had to revert nearly all of the edits you have ever made Martin, I think it is you that lack perspective. I repeat for about the millionth time, this article is not about the discovery of DNA. Will you ever understand that? Your constant nitpicking and hounding of the good faith editors of this article is extremelly annoying. Alun 14:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Alun,

I have deliberately made very few so-called 'edits' to the Rosalind Franklin article, so as usual you seem to be exagerating your point!

"Chomet, S. (Ed.), "D.N.A. Genesis of a Discovery", (1994): £10.50" is a a little known but very useful publication originally recommended to me by Lynne Elkins [Franklin's would-be third biographer] so why not get a copy, read it, and use it to improve the REF article?

Anyone and everyone can use the easily available resources, it takes some initiative to read, interpret, and use the above booklet and others like the Norton Critical Edition of "The Double Helix", edited by Stent. As ever, you take my constructive criticisms (and helpful suggestions) of/on the article as 'attacks' on yourself personally. PLEASE replace the awful painting as soon as possible?

I regard as my single (and greatest) contribution to the REF article the image of the "Franklin and Gosling death notice for a helical structure for crystalline DNA (or A-DNA)"; I am not sure about the accuracy of the description by the way, but am pleased at its continued inclusion!

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What a selective memory you have Martin. It's only in August (see above) that I had to produce a long list of your poor edits on this talk page. Editing using an IP address only makes you semi-anonymous. Are you claiming you didn't make these edits? Your constant nitpicking and hounding of editors of this page, and especially me has made working on this article a nightmare. As I remember it you produced the "death notice" card on this talk page because you erroneously thought it proved that Franklin was against a helical structure for both forms of DNA (the caption on the upload file says it all), in actual fact the card is clearly marked "crystalline" and not "paracrystalline", (see here and here). It was some time later that I came across your upload again and thought to include it. I'm not sure of the copyright status of this card either. It may be a breach of copyright to include it on this article. The upload log claims it is fair use to use on Gosling's article because it illustrates the "object in question", but I'm not sure this is correct, and it's not even used in the Raymond Gosling article. The image may be in the public domain, Maddox uses it, but does not credit anyone in her list of illustrations. Alun 13:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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