User talk:Roger Arguile

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Contents 1 Gregory Dix 2 Welcome, & a tip or two 3 Am I being Blocked? 4 Ruth Kelly 5 Your message 6 Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion 7 Greetings 8 Regarding attitudes of certain users 9 FDR 10 Church architecture 11 Always willing to help users with the Jensen 12 St. Paul 13 St. Paul, Vandalism, and America 14 Re English Reformation 15 Leaving messages 16 Common Worship 17 Rowan Williams 18 Timeline of Paul 19 On Paul 20 St Paul, and "the mythicist position" 21 Resurrection 22 Paul on homosexuality 23 St. Paul's tomb 24 sources 25 Nihil...

[edit] Gregory Dix

Thanks for the clarification on the Dix article. How is the Offertory Pelagian, however, since those who offer it are baptized members of the Christian community, and therefore have been washed of original sin? I think the exact quote would make the article even better? Evan Donovan 15:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome, & a tip or two

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! I see you've been doing a lot of edits, but many of them are just a single word or a repositioning of a wikilink ( ]] ). If you register as a regular User you can mark such edits as "minor", which helps other editors to follow your contributions.

Actually, if you're just altering one thing at a time, but are unsure as to how it will appear on the page, or if you want to test whether a wikilink you have made is viable, it's far better to use the "Show preview" button; then you can group several changes together and save them all at once. Please could you also get into the habit of summarising your changes (again, to help other editors), using the "Edit Summary" box? Thanks. SiGarb | Talk 15:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Am I being Blocked?

I confess that I have not fully understood the system but have made a number of contributions. I now find that on this computer only I am unable to get through. If this is the case, it would be courteous to tell me. I accept the above comment, but am not too happy that I seem to be unable to make any further contributions or even get to wikipedia. (This attempt took some time!) Roger Arguile 20.15 Matcvh 26th (UTC)

I wouldn't have though that you were being blocked, unless you have made any more copyvio or committed other unpardonable offenses; looking at your recent contributions I don't see anything particularly controversial (unless you didn't log in and have made some anonymous edits). If you have been blocked you should have been warned first. Perhaps you are not the only person to use that computer to accesss Wikipedia? So it may be that its address has been blocked because of persistant vandalism by someone else. Otherwise I'd just put it down to one of the infinite, ineffable, inexplicable technical frustrations of computerdom and the internet in general! ;-) SiGarb | Talk 10:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ruth Kelly

Hi. I have reverted the second of your two edits to Ruth Kelly. It was really just a comment and was not encyclopaedic. The article itself is not the appropriate place for such comments. But you could add them to the talk page if you would prefer. Frelke 19:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your message

Thanks for your message on my talk page - I have made the edit you requested. How splendid of you to ask me to do it and to explain why, and not simply to do it yourself! I am so impressed by that that I can't resist. I think she is devout, and have some personal knowledge of that, although I know that doesn't count here. But she is, as you say, undoubtedly practising, and so I have replaced devout with practising.

I agree with you that we must always be vigilant to strive for neutral point of view here (not elsewhere, of course!) but I am not sure that that means that, particularly when covering politicians and political controversy, points of view cannot be referred to, so long as they are balanced and the overall coverage is neutral. Hard to achieve, I know.

Your other points are fascinating! All Catholics are expected to be obedient, but no-one, of course, is expected to conform, such is our fallen nature. No-one leads a perfect Catholic life but all are expected to try. I think, however, that this does not preclude disagreement. Indeed, obedience is most difficult and therefore perhaps most admirable (if you value obedience) when it is obedience to rules with which one does not agree.

You say "the argument about the relationship between religiously informed conscience and liberal views is not one that should permeate an article on a comparatively ephemeral figure." However, (and I know we disagree about this), I think it is a matter of objective fact that Ruth Kelly has been particularly dogged by this controversy and it is not, therefore, inappropriate that it should be referred to.

I am interested that you think that anti-Catholicism is pervasive in England. Of course, it was once actually part of the law of the land and undoubtedly pervasive. I think that now, however, Catholicism has become much more mainstream in English Christianity (for demographic reasons) and, at the same time, England has become increasingly secular. The result, in my observation at least, is that anti-Catholicism has largely faded away, and been replaced with a generalised anti-clericalism - perhaps I should say, anti-religion.

I know that is is often said, as you do, that "the liberal consensus is hugely intolerant of other views". I don't think the liberal consensus is any less tolerant than any other consensus and, because of the nature of liberalism, probably more so. That is not to say that liberals cannot be intolerant. But I don't think it is fair to say they are more so than others.

I'm not sure what you mean by Ruth Kelly's right of conscience. No-one has suggested that she isn't entitled to hold any view or to practise any religion whatsoever. Her right of conscience, or freedom of conscience, is unchallenged. The question is whether her views are compatible with her ministerial responsibilities. That is a question which I think it is right to identify, although I personally am not interested in debating it, because it is a matter in which I have no stake, and no say.

Sincerely, Chelseaboy 17:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion

Hello! I noticed that you have been a contributor to articles on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion. You may be interested in checking out a new WikiProject - WikiProject Anglicanism. Please consider signing up and participating in this collaborative effort to improve and expand Anglican-related articles! Cheers! Fishhead64 22:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greetings

Dear Roger Arguile First some tips.

(1) Never leave messages on somebody's user page. It might not get seen. Leave messages on talk pages. This triggers an alert. In the standard view it generates a gaudy orange box at the top of the recipient's page, whichever page he is viewing.

(2) Always sign your talk posts - on users' talk pages or on articles' talk pages - with four tildes (~~~~) as this generates a signature with a date-stamp and makes it easier to reply. There should be a button for signatures third from the right above the edit box, it has a fragment of copperplate (ish) writing. Click edit in the top right hand corner of this message to see, then click cancel to return to this.

(3)(Obviously don't do this for your edits to articles).

(4) Some people (myself included) have a special link which you click to generate a new talk topic. This creates a new section at the bottom of the last topic with the standard section header (== Header ==). This is useful for long talk pages. Or long article pages come to that. Otherwise edit the last talk post, click the button (in the standard set) fourth from the left along the top, it has an outsized capital A. Remember to make sure that you correct the edit summary so it does not look like you are simply editing an old message.

(5) Ect (ekt) is easier to say than etc (e-tuh-kuh). Hence the spelling which I borrow from Molesworth, "as any fule kno". (I am a fule in that sense)

Phew... the topic:

(As a courtesy to your status whilst keeping due respect for Apostolicae Curae I will eschew the common practice of using Catholic to mean Roman Catholic and will use the terms Romans, Anglicans ect.)

Loosely speaking you are right. However, the word Liturgy is used by for instance the Orthodox to mean the Mass. No one was confused by my usage.

This was in a section entitled Vatican II (more or less) and dealing with the reforms to the Roman Rite in the context of an article on the Liturgical Movement. The Liturgical Movement was a western phenomenon. To my knowledge it had no effect at all on the Orthodox and had but a passing effect on the Eastern Rite Catholics who use a liturgy indistinguishable from the Orthodox. As I understand so far as practice was concerned, the Anglicans and Lutherans were merely caught in the Roman wake. With the exception of the Protestant observers to the Consilium (a topic that swiftly generates heat at the expense of light among soi-disant traditionalists) there was no input from non-Romans in the liturgical reforms. There were of course eminent Anglican liturgists such as Dix and Archdale King but the movement was Roman. It took its life from reinvigorated continental monasteries, it aimed at the information and reformation of the Roman laity (e.g. the efforts of Giuseppe Sarto when he was Parish Priest) and its programmes for reform (when they arose - the fathers of the movement did not see reform as the aim at the movement's birth) were directed to the Roman authorities.

I would reserve my ire for the blatant POV articles on a whole host of entries, not least those on mdoern political figures and controversies.

I am not angry. Edit summmaries force us to be succinct. We may appear curt even if we want to be courteous. (Caution: simply saying "No to the previous edit" could easily be misconstrued absent some substatial argument). I did not make this edit and this edit to move to a neutral point of view but to make the section accurate. I repeat: this is an article on a movement that was exclusively western and which took very little bearing from western non-Romans (that anyone would admit to). Mass is the term for the "eucharistic liturgy" (which latter term, if you'll forgive me, savours of the lecture theatre not the sanctuary) in this Western Roman context and has been since the time of Ambrose at least. It is also commonly understood (albeit sometimes as crudly as "what them Kaffeelicks do", perhaps). Why use two obviously foreign words totalling seven syllables and 18 letters when you have one four letter monosyllable which tells the reader as much as he or she needs?

In the Roman rite, weddings are normally conducted in the context of the Mass. The same is true of funerals. confirmations, ordinations etc.

I think "funeral" is misplaced in that list as funerals per se are not sacraments. Your argument presupposes (or so it appears to me) that only the Eucharist is Liturgy. This is not the Roman understanding, hence Mediator Dei and Sacrosanctum Concilium deal with the divine office and the sacraments as well as the Mass. (MD ss.22 & 37, SC ss.7&90, the Breviary is cited as an authority on liturgy in SC.47). Pius XII and the Council Fathers just assumed that there was more to the Liturgy than the Mass. Otherwise one cannot make sense of what they say. Granted you are an Anglican not a Roman but the Liturgical Movement was a Roman phenomenon and Vatican II a Roman event.

The Tridentine Breviary was not said by a congregation.

False. Holy Week is the obvious counter example pre 1950 at any rate. If that is a special case, why did the monks of Solesmes bother to print chants for the office throughout the year in the Liber Usualis if it was't usual for the laity? (Often the rubrics were printed in the vernacular, which would not be the case if they were destined for use by the Clergy alone). Again I think you are led astray by your unspoken assumption (as it appears) that the liturgy has to be out loud among a congregation.

Baptisms were, it is true, conducted separately, but my point about the use of the word Liturgy remains.

What point would that be? That the orthodox don't use the term Mass? (Not relevant here). That "nobody was confused"? (7x18 "Eucharistic liturgy" is not less confusing than "Mass"). What?

However, to avoid repetition I have made a small amendment to your correction.

So all this is because of a point about style? In the sentence "(t)he Latin Tridentine Mass remained the form of Mass for the Catholic Church in the West until the Second Vatican Council" I don't feel a problem with repetition as the emphasis falls on "Latin" and then on "Tridentine" (to be precise on Lat- and -dent-). It then falls on "form". The questions run as follows. "Which form of Mass is that?" The Tridentine. Remind me of the most significant feature?" It was in Latin. And what was so important about it? It remained the form in force until Vatican II. The word Mass could be excluded and not replaced without doing violence to the sense.

I did start drafting a whole new paragraph at the beginning of the "Vatican II" section to cope with that horribly tendentious next sentence (in brackets). I gave up because I did not want to waste any more time on this futile project and I did not want to get into a debate on the talk page. I thought my edit summary was clear. I am sorry it was not.--Stroika 22:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding attitudes of certain users

Hi there! We don't work on like articles, but I notice you've stumbled into the Jensen. Welcome to a wider understanding of the wiki community. I believe you've correctly identified many of the defining characteristics of this fellow when you were writing what might be construed as an ironic message on his talk page today. Don't feel alone, or without allies in this specific matter. I suspect you'll see considerable talk and illuminating comments as you continue to interact with him. He claims to be (and might actually be) a well-published professor of history at a California university. That said, his temperment often seems more like that of college student than college instructor. He has high edits, but his article edit counts should be divided by three for a more accurate reading (pushes 3RR envelope at every opportunity). As a wikipedian, my observations are that he tends to bully users with harsh and pejorative language, ignore rough consensus, and pushes for self-held positions in spite of citation which refutes. I might suggest you stand your ground on article talk pages and point out his tactics as he applies them. Applying NPOV tags to sections will draw other concerned page watchers to assist you in edit conflicts. All of this IMHO. Try to assume good faith. BusterD 22:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FDR

Would you be able to add a citation for the latest addition to the FDR Article? Thanks, Sam 21:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Church architecture

No doubt, but one has to be careful, in making assumptions about vandalism. The removal of the first para on Church architecture was no doubt peremptory but the para itself could be argued to be a little pompous Roger Arguile 14:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Roger,

Sorry for the lateness of the response, but because you posted the message on my user page I never received a notification of the message. I took the liberty of moving the message to my talk page.

I am sorry too if I reverted a good faith edit, I do attempt to be careful, and if in doubt I leave the article as is for someone more knowledgeable on the topic to intervene. Of course, I do make mistakes from time to time.

There were a few things that I noticed in this edit:

1. The edit was anonymous (IP address, not user account).
2. The text was not resolved. The first paragraph heading was ''Church art<s>Strike-through text</s><blockquote> which showed in the article as Church artStrike-through text
3. The east/west swap is a frequent vandalism technique to evade detection.

These three points convinced me that it was vandalism.

Once more, I apologise for any assumption of malice.

Regards

LittleOldMe 17:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Always willing to help users with the Jensen

He's enormously well read, so I rarely argue on his merits. Usually he's trying to bait a meta wiki discussion; these days I refuse to step into his arena. He means well; he's just used to being correct, even when incorrect. At least he's not a medical doctor. By the way, what does "haut en bas admonition" mean in this context? My French is beyond poor but I'm always interested in useful terminology. Remember to reply on my talk page, not my user page (I moved your thanks to the correct location). I'm glad you're not letting a ripe apple or two spoil your wikipresence. BusterD 20:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St. Paul

Rev. Roger, thank you for your contributions to the St. Paul page. Many of the things you removed were only allowed to linger by me because previously I had been in an edit conflict with a certain editor and as a compromise I could only do so much (you should have seen it before). I am glad to see it get better. Lostcaesar 22:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC) Thanks. I hope to do some more. I am not a Pauline scholar of any seriousness, but I would like, conflicts permitting, to allow some air into the article. It may be asking for trouble but something on current contgroversies would be useful. I have had a look at the archived discussion, but only briefly. Keep in touch Roger Arguile 22:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St. Paul, Vandalism, and America

You say the article is long. I am in the process of shortening it. You also say that you are American. Forgive me but on this side of the Atlantic we think of America as having a north and a south and as have more than a dozen flags, consisting as it does not numerous nation states. I am glad that you are proud to be a member of one of those nation states. Meanwhile I will attempt to fix your problem with SP Roger Arguile 22:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm moving your "talk" into your talk page here. First of all. ALWAYS put your communications in the talk page. (it's the tab next to the user page tab on top that says discussion) I see someone has notified you about this before. Your putting talks on userpage may be viewed as vandalism, therefore I have to give you a warning as follows: Please do not edit the user pages of other contributors without their approval or consent. It may be seen as vandalism. If you would like to experiment, please visit the sandbox.

I tagged the article St. Paul as verylong during stub sorting. A 60k page is certainly not a stub. Instead it qualifies as very long. Please review WP:LENGTH for further information.

Also, your comment on America is inappropriate and disrespectful to the citizens of the United States of America and other countries in the American continent. Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Feureau 17:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Feureau has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing!

Please stop. If you continue to make personal attacks on other people, you will be blocked for disruption. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Thank you.

This is your last warning.
The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Feureau 10:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re English Reformation

Roger, useful changes.

However, could you just confirm the number in this sentence:

 In the autumn of 1536 there was a great muster, reckoned to be up to 40,00 in number, at Horncastle in Lincolnshire

Should that be 4,000, or 40,000? David Underdown 09:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leaving messages

Please do not leave people messages on their User pages, their Talk page is the place for messages. e.g. User_talk:Feureau. Also please not that we require editors to work together constructively and civily. Contintually placing messages on a users page rather than talk can be considered vandalism. Thanks --pgk 11:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Re my above comment and your response. "Perhaps teasing is not allowed" - I'm not saying that but one persons teasing is another persons harassment or attack, it seems quite clear that User:Feureau has not taken it in the way you intended so continuing that seems to be just adding fuel to the fire, as I said we expect people to work together constructively. As in the real world that means you have to take account of different peoples tempraments and deal with them appropriately. FWIW I am an admin and indeed it is one of the request by Feureau to enact a block which prompted this, I am not at this stage intending to block you or anyone else nor am I directly threatening to do such. My experience is that in such situations it can indeed be born of a misunderstanding and is often better resolved by the individuals concerned sorting it out between themselves, blocking can just breed resentment. --pgk 13:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you need to read about administrators, admins are the same as any other users with a few extra buttons to enable them to do certain maintenance tasks and block those who are disrupting the building of the encyclopedia. --pgk 17:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Common Worship

You fail to specify your objections to my edits. I am happy to defend their accuracy, providing I know what I am supposed to be defending them against. I prefer to conduct such discussions on the talk pages of the relevant articles (so that they can be seen by all potentially interested parties who may wish to contribute, rather than being a private conversation). I hope we can engage constructively there. Vilĉjo 23:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

On a more general point, it is I'm afraid completely unrealistic to expect every edit, no matter how minor, to be discussed in advance. Even your own edit summary appears to treat the matter as one more of phraseology than of substance. There are aspects of the CW article which really do need addressing, in terms of substance; rest assured that if/when I get around to them I will bring any genuinely substantive issues to the article talk page first. Vilĉjo 01:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rowan Williams

'an intellectual of considerable powers' ambiguous? If you say so.Roger Arguile 14:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I do, though I confess the ambiguity is no way grave. It left me wondering what powers are meant. That is, is he an intellectual with great non-intellectual powers (such as good organisational, conciliatory or rhetorical abilities) or is he a man of great intellectual powers? I assumed the latter was intended, although he clearly does have great abilities that are not specifically intellectual. I realise it's a very minor point - the main reason I edited the paragraph was to correct 'sound byte' to 'soundbite', but the other phrase nagged me. I very much approve in general of your 'tinkering' by the way. garik 15:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline of Paul

This timeline shows approximate dates of notable events in Paul's life.

(scale is from 20AD to 80 AD)

edit this timeline How does it look now? I tried to clean it up according to your comments. I think a visual graphic is necessary in the article but I need your help in making the dates right. Please help? MPS 20:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On Paul

I think there may be a way to work in some discussion of the sources for reconstructing Paul's life. However, the way in which this was done seemed a bit problematic. I prefer to avoid very vague and general comments that just leave the reader hanging. For example, I am not very fond of things like "many scholars point to possibly irreconcilable differences in the sources…". Instead, I prefer to give the two accounts to the reader, and then give sourced commentary by different scholars. That way, the reader can have some substance to make a decision. And, I always favor the original texts speaking for themselves first. So many times, especially in biblical studies, I see scholars inventing supposed conflicts, and then expounding on how difficult and insurmountable these problems are, only so that they can later pat themselves on the back for coming to some authorities decision on the matter (though this usually is in regards to synoptic theories, where scholars bend over backwards to make Matthew alter Mark). That was a bit rambling, but to just state the point, I think you are right to include it, but I think we must be specific and give our readers the credit to be able to understand primary source information unfiltered and judge the commentary by it. Lostcaesar 18:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me add that I do respect what you are doing on the article, and I don't mean to get in the way of good faith edits. But I will say that the section in question seems a bit confusing to me, and there is a part of me that says a reader of this article just wanted to know about St. Paul, not about reconciling the sources, but I do agree there is a place for that. I just think the info could maybe be woven into the telling, rather than to digress self-indulgently, if see what I am saying. Lostcaesar 20:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well my changes hardly reflect any attempt to undo what you have written. I think you are confusing my edits with another. My changes, besides very minor cleanup, was to ask for a reference for the claim that Acts and Paul's letters are "impossible" to reconcile, and I slightly reworded the Council of Jerusalem because, in its old wording, it presented James and Peter in an odd way, ignoring the position of leadership of the latter. Those are my only changes. Nothing you mentioned on my usepage is about these changes, so I think you are confusing me with another editor, who was working on the page as I was. In no way did I undo 99.9% of your edits. Lostcaesar 10:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh np Father — I said a few things on talk if you're interested. Lostcaesar 12:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St Paul, and "the mythicist position"

Hi! Thanks for the note. While I was pretty unhappy with the last few paragraphs under this section, I thought that the first three seemed viable. I notice you cut all of it, and thought I'd ask here rather than cluttering up the discussion page: was it all unsalvageable, or erroneous? Are there actually no reputable scholars who question Paul's existence? I ask solely out of ignorance. Snickersnee 06:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resurrection

Regarding your comment on my talk page about the Corinthians reference - I was always given to understand that the 'baptism for the dead' referred to being baptised for Jesus i.e. Jesus was 'the dead' that is being referred to? SparrowsWing 22:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me see what I can dig out for you (may take some time) - until then - more than happy to leave your ref up on the article. I'll add a reply on the article's talk page as well for other editors. SparrowsWing 22:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

RE: I took the reference to the resurrection out because it made it sound as though Paul did not believe in a bodily resurrection. Lostcaesar 11:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul on homosexuality

I am sure that there are those, wishing to push an agenda in the Church, who have wild views on Paul and likewise wild interpretations of certain passages. But at the end of the day these views are the fringe of the fringe. They may be discussed in "alternate views of Paul", perhaps, but not in the main section. Judaism condemned homosexual acts. Early Christianity did as well. Paul was a Jew who converted to Christianity - why should his views be any different? Why bend over backwards to render an interpretation of an otherwise clear passage in such a light that it makes people like bishop Sponge feel ok about their sins? I will say that I am sorry if I was insulting with my commentary on the edit page. This is a bit of a sore spot for me. My grandmother is Anglican, and certain changes like this in her Church are one of the reasons that she no longer feels at home there and thus no longer attends mass (and there has been a real effort to push anglo-catholics out of the Episcopal church, which I am sure you know well). But, as I said, these views are still on the fringe, and should only be discussed as so. To treat the matter as a genuine debate is to misunderstand problems within certain theological academic circiles as indicative of the greater world. Lostcaesar 12:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I have amended, rather than deleted your piece. I have changed the bible version to one which is more mainstream. The TNIV is a bi ton a limb.Roger Arguile 13:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St. Paul's tomb

Thanks for your polite note. When I undid your edit, I thought for some reason that my edit had not actually happened - no edit war was intended! I believe I was rather hasty in being the first to add something about the tomb on St Paul's page, and the current edit is better than mine. I hadn't checked the Basilica page before adding my text, but I disagree that the only page the recent archaeology should be mentioned in on the Basilica page. A tomb is about the remains (once) contained therein at least as much as the building in which it is found. While I respect the sensitivity surrounding this page, I think that the first sighting of his tomb in 1700 years is of great general and specific interest - despite this not being a "news page" - and fully deserves a mention on the St Paul page. best regards Hotlorp 01:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sources

I explained some of this in the talk page. Wikipedia has a different policy than other encyclopedias, which I encourage you to familiarize yourself with. Biblical quotes are a good step forward for citations, but these are primary sources and thus have their own difficulty if used alone, with secondary attribution to the interpretation being make from them. Lostcaesar 10:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nihil...

I am afraid Nihil Obstat is no guarantee; whatever the case I believe I said that Brown is controversial, or at least some of what he says. For one he doubts the historicity of the Gospels, which puts him in a very compromising position. As far as his scholarship goes, he is certainly a voice that should be heard, as he is no fool. But from a faith standpoint, he is quite comfortable flirting with heresy, though he knows how to walk that rope. Scholarship aside, I doubt whether anyone's faith was every strengthened from his books, which should be the real measure of a priest. I think the Vatican wanted to prove a point by having him on the Biblical commission – it was an attempt to show the extremely liberal, obviously heretical scholars that an attempt to respect the teachings of the Church is appreciated, even if it at times falls short, and that the Church is wholly unafraid of modern scholarship. Lostcaesar 17:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Nihil Obstat is not determined by the Magisterium. I believe it is determined on a diocesan level. In other words, it is based on the opinion of one bishop. Bishops are shepherds and one must be obedient to them - this is very important. They are, after all, successors to the apostles. But one of the twelve apostles was a Judas. An old says is, "keep one eye on your bishop, and one on the pope, and if they say different things, keep both eyes on the pope." Doubting this historicity of the Gospels is against the teachings of Dei Verbum, a Vatican 2 text, and thus superior to a bishop's nihil obstat. Lostcaesar 17:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)