Talk:Rock, Paper, Scissors

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Contents

[edit] Old messages

I would just like to know where the blurb about the rhyme that supposedly precedes the game in Israel is coming from. I pretty much grew up in that country, and of course played countless games of RPS as a kid, and not even once, in any part of the country I've been to, have I ever heard this rhyme being uttered. Rationale for including it in this article?

What about history and geographical spread of the game? Did the game exist before the invention of paper and scissors? In Denmark the game is played as defined here (same "weapons"), but is this true for everywhere? (The CIA factbook seems a little sparse on this topic).

Obviously it is also played here in Australia, yet I've only ever known it as "Scissors, paper, stone". I wonder why we reverse the order of objects...? MMGB

Because you are antipodean. Doesn't your water run out the tap backwards, too? --MichaelTinkler

I am NOT anti-podean. I am quite fond of anything with feet. - MMGB

Here in my part of Canada we call it "Paper, Scissors, Rock". Guess I'll set up another redirect... --Stephen Gilbert

Here (in the UK) I've always come across it as "scissor, paper, stone" --AdamW

Here in the US, I've always heard it "Rock, paper, scissors." --Chuck Smith

That could be seen as psychologically revealing... ;-) In the UK we give the order with strongest first, in the states you have weakest first... Tarquin
Ironically, Tarquin, the whole point of the game is that no one is stronger than the other...more physchology for ya. Ed Cormany
yes...... I *know* that. But when you give the three things in a list, they are either successively conquering or losing. Look: Stone (loses to) Paper (loses to) Scissors. Or Scissors (defeats) Paper (defeats) Stone. Now do you see what I mean? -- Tarquin 09:41 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Conversely it could be seen as optimistic to end on the strongest (so to speak)... To use the NZ example, it could be seen as "You think PAPER is good? Well try SCISSORS! You think scissors is good? Try ROCK!" And rock does appear to be the strongest-seeming, the main "upset" in the game is the lowly paper beating the powerful rock, as per hobbits beating dark lords in the LOTR variant. User:Caleby can't be bothered signing in. 203.118.189.153 22:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


No one will ever know what the real name of the game is. I have had this argument numerous times and noone seems to agree. About half of Chicago says its "paper, scissors, rock" and the other half says its "rock, paper, scissors". Any other combination doesn't quite roll off the tongue. -- Moe from Chicago

In New Zealand we call it "Paper Scissors Rock" although some people call it "Rock Paper Scissors" - Matthew

A similar game called hunter, shotgun and tiger uses more exaggerated gestures. The players turn away from each other. On the count of 3, the players both turn around towards each other showing one of the three gestures. An aiming gesture is the shotgun. A roar with two raised craws is the tiger. No gesture is the hunter. Since the gesture requires big movements, it is more appropriate then Stone Paper Scissors when there is an audience watching from a distance. It is funny to watch the cheaters trying to change a gesture at the last minute. Hunter wins shotgun; shotgun wins tiger; tiger wins hunter. -Kowloonese

I was introduced to a similar variant, inended for tournament play in large groups, that has a rhyme with it. The variant I learned was called "Gorilla, Man, Gun" and when the players were back to back, they chanted "Gorilla beats the Man, the Man beats the Gun, the Gun beats Gorilla if you Tie you Die: 1, 2, 3!" You make the appropriate gestures at each point you say a word during the rhyme, as well as when you turn around for the actual match:
Gorilla: Arms raised threateningly over head
Man: Chin nested between thumb and forefinger in the "thinker" position
Gun: One or both hands forming the gun shape (pointing forefinger, thumb up) and pointed at the opponent. Must be held at chest level to prevent confusion between Gun and Gorilla.
Also, on "Tie" the hands are crossed across the throat, and on "Die" make a throat-cutting gesture. Actual play of the game is best with many participants: they break off into pairs and a series of rounds are played, with the losers and those who tie dropping out and the winners pairing up again until only one pair is left. It is to be agreed on beforehand whether they may replay ties or if everyone loses if they tie. Playing this enthusiastically in public areas, espescially those that are normally quiet, is an excellent way to make a spectacle of yourself. -Ryven

Thanks for the mention of Billings' competition, but that link was already covered, and I really don't think it deserves a whole paragraph treatment here. Perhaps an article of its own, though... --LDC

Interesting combination is fictional version in one of the Piers Anthony books, probably Xanth series, of mermen and dragons who play in different elements. Also of interest are other games of chance you can play with your hands and simple elements, one of those is matching: one person (authority) grabs sand in one, both, or no hands, holds it up in a closed fist and next person either tries to match or not match in order to gain inclusion to a select group. ~ender 2003-04-15 03:51

What is the etymology of roshambo? It sounds like it might be French, but I cannot think of anything in French that sounds like that and that relates to the game in any way I can imagine. It might be an Oriental language, but by my understanding of the phonology syllable-final /-m/ means that it cannot be the original form of a Japanese word. -- IHCOYC 02:48 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)~

In Japanese, a syllabic N before a consonant like B or P sounds like an M. The Japanese name is JanKen (じゃん拳) though. —Frungi 00:07, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

The website at http://www.emf.net/~estephen/roshambo/ says ""The name comes from "phonetic French for Rock Paper Scissors" or so we are told". RickK

Rochambeau was a French general during the American Revolution...I assumed the game was spelled that way as well. I don't know if they are connected though. Adam Bishop 04:27 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
OED has neither words, so apparently it's not anglicized. --Menchi 15:10 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The "phonetic French" name strikes me as implausible; to be sure, "rock" in French is roche, /rå∫/, but scissors are ciseaux, /sizo:/, and paper is papier, /papje/, and how to work these into Rochambeau or Roshambo is somewhat difficult to imagine. Perhaps different weapon names are intended, but I cannot imagine what.
Maybe some note needs to be taken of Eric Cartman's variant definition as well; this is where I first heard the word rochambeau applied to any kind of game. This name seems to be a new word in English. --- IHCOYC 14:06 23 Jun 2003 (UTC)~

Put "stone paper scissors" into google and this page come up as the number one hit, but only out of 534 entries. So I decided to test them all out and was quite surprised with the result.


"paper scissors stone" - 8,630!
"paper stone scissors" -   215
"stone scissors paper" -   674
"stone paper scissors" -   534
"scissors paper stone" - 2,550
"scissors stone paper" -   201

"paper scissors rock" -  2,740
"paper rock scissors" -  8,620!
"scissors rock paper" -    420
"scissors paper rock" -  1,040
"rock paper scissors" - 34,700!!!
"rock scissors paper" - 29,300!!
Mintguy 20:47 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Even more disturbing is the results just from www.google.co.uk for just UK sites:
"rock paper scissors" - 1,670
"scissors paper stone" - 618
if you limit it to .co.uk domains, "rock paper scissors" still wins:
"rock paper scissors" - 652
"scissors paper stone" - 341
So even just in UK pages, the google test proves that "rock paper scissors" is more common. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:30, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

Regarding Kowloonese's comment on "hunter gun lion," I've heard that version as "ninja cowboy lion". On that thought, I'd like to do a rearrangement of a couple sections, but since it's on wikipedia:featured articles as is, I'm running it by people first. I want to take the "Variations" section and break it down into subsections, which'll be something like "more players," "different symbols" (including cat tinfoil microwave, hunter gun lion/ninja cowboy lion), "different number of symbols" (one two, rock paper scissors Spock lizard), and "trump plays" (in normal rock paper scissors, a person can play fire once in their lifetime, which beats anything, and can play water whenever they want, which looses to anything but fire). If I don't hear objections, I'll do this next week. --zandperl 15:18, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC) ---

Where I went to school, dynamite only beats rock, and scissors beat dynamite. This way, dynamite beats rock and is beat by scissors, paper beats rock and is beat by scissors, scissors beat dynamite and are beat by rock, and rock is the clear loser since it only beats scissors. The psychology involved is interesting because many people who are accustomed to the regular "Rock, paper, scissors" system assume that rock is a dominant choice, and fail to see that it has a clear disadvantage. This works especially well when the game is introduced to someone new, and gives veterans of the game a real advantage.

This page shows 'paper' as 'all fingers extended, palm facing downwards or upwards'. I live in Japan and have played this for long time and I know paper can be done 'sideways' and made a correction to include it. Have anyone else ever seen this done?

Revth 12:31, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Rock/Paper/Scissors

Did you know that native shamans, and the shamanic foundation (Michael Harner) play something called "The Bone Game"? It's somewhat psychological, having to guess whether the other person has the bone in his closed hand in front or in his other hand behind his back. I didn't see anhything about it in you homepage.

Blessings, The Obnoxious Monk Please, someone explain to me how paper beats rock. I still can't figure it out, and it really isn't in the article. I mean, rock would go right through paper, and scream out "owned".. well.. I'm getting sidetracked, but you get my point, don't you? So what if it covers the rock, it's not like it's not going to suffocate or anything -- rocks don't breathe.

Try using it with gestures sometime. Take your symbol and use it. So the scissors guy will place his two fingers on the other persons paper with a cutting motion and say "Scissors cut paper". "Paper wraps stone" Take your flat paper hand and wrap it around the rock fist. When you do that you will see that the paper has a clearly dominant position, as you have neutralized that fist. Remember that the concept is mostly symbolic anyway. The Steve

[edit] rock paper scissors

Concerning how paper damages a rock, the way I first learned it is that the buzz saw blades used for cutting stone, brick, etc. in construction are actually a paper of about a file folder thickness and they do cut through the masonry, kept stiff by centrifugal force.

Paul Cardwell

The way I've always heard (and seen) it explained is that paper wraps up rock, usually accompanied by a visual of the "paper" hand grasping the "rock" fist. -Sean 18:54, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Why is it that water doesn't beat paper in the game discussed where people can add things like 'fire', 'water', etc.? Wouldn't wet paper be easily torn? DX 22:58, Mar 28, 2004 (UTC)

When I lived in Japan as a kid in the 70s, we played JanKenPon a lot. It was my first exposure to the game, and I was surprised to find on returning to Canada that the English version appeared to lack a comparable terminology. For example, while we always counted Jan-Ken-Pon on the first round of a game, any tie-breaker rounds that followed would be counted Ai-Kode-Sho. Whenever someone cheated by revealing his choice a split-second later than his opponent(s), we yelled Atodashi!

For kids, it was also popular to play the game with your feet. You would jump three times, making your selection on the third jump. Landing with your feet together meant rock. Landing with them parted to the left and right meant paper. Landing with one foot ahead and one foot behind you meant scissors.

Ekc 17:17, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The article as it stands today says that "Jan-Ken-Po" is a Brazilian variant(?). I've lived in Japan and I recall that name as well--should this be changed? At the least the article should mention the Japanese Jan-Ken (if there indeed really is a Brazilian game of the same name), since it's a huge part of their culture (for serious). Also, I never saw it spelled out, but I think I had decided by the end of my year in Japan that the term for a rematch was "moo-ikkoo-deshoo", literally, "once more...?". But I might be wrong.
モオイッコオデショオ? もう一向でしょう? 無一句で主? You don’t seem to be using any standard romanization system. —Frungi 00:07, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I am Peruvian and have always known the game as Jan-Ken-Po as well. I was surprised to find out earlier this year that it was actually a Japanese term. It's not only called that way in Brazil, is my point.

I once saw a variant in which a 4th symbol, "well" was used. The hand was formed like an O to show a well. The paper blocks the well, by covering the top of it (paper wins). The stone drowns in the well (well wins). And scissors and well are a tie, because neither can hurt each other.

Are there any other interesting variants with more than 3 symbols to add more possibilities?--Sonjaaa 18:00, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

I saw a site that has a variant with seven symbols: Rock, Scissors, Paper, Bomb (thumb stuck out), Bird (middle finger), Water (fingers halfway between fully extended and closed), and Chopper (thumb and pinkie).

I can't believe how much time you all put into something so pointless. It's well done, of course, but still...

A slightly more manageable variation has five symbols (Rock, Paper, Scissors, Spock, Lizard). -- Knox Carey

Since this lists the Australian name, is it true that in the UK it's called Scissors Paper Stone? (I thought so, but I wanted to check.) Marnanel 01:40, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard some British-Canadians call it that. -- user:zanimum

I don't understand what the edit by Nunh-huh is supposed to mean. What does sex have to do with that mathematical explanation? I'll quote it here:

"A game option which is 'greater' than another is closer to being optimal, but such a notion does not exist for males in Rochambeau: The relation used to determine which throws defeat which is non-transitive."

Any ideas? Mackeriv 01:47, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The entire last sentence confuses me… —Frungi 23:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
  • It's explaining (why I'm not sure) how it isn't transitive. Let's consider R = Rock, S = Scissors, P = Paper. A transitive property says: R beats S, S beats P, therefore R beats P. Clearly, this isn't the case as it's circular (P beats R), thus it is NOT transitive. Clear as mud now? :) I'm not sure anti-transitive is an actual mathematical term though. Wikibofh 23:57, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
No, I meant this sentence: The relation used to determine which throws defeat which is non-transitive. It doesn’t seem to make any kind of sense. —Frungi 00:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Never mind, I was reading it something like: “…to determine which throws defeat, which is non-transitive.” instead of “…to determine which throws defeat which is non-transitive.” —Frungi 00:09, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
      • It makes a kind of sense...but I'm not sure the point. I think it's saying there is no A > B , B > C , A > C relationship. Why this needs to be expanded upon? No idea. :) Wikibofh 01:12, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

The analysis of Rochambeau changes considerably when you realize that if a girl and boy play, the girl wins, whether she goes first or second. - Nunh-huh 01:51, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I suppose you're referring to one of the violent variations of the game, like the South Park one. Rochambeau (or Roshambo) is just another name for the regular Rock Paper Scissors game. The person who added the Non-transitivity info probably just preferred to use the "Rochambeau" term instead of the Rock Paper Scissors name (the way it was done in the rest of the article. Rochambeau is in no way related to the sex of the players. Mackeriv 01:58, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

  • Yes, of course I'm referring to the same "kick in the balls" version that the article refers to. Perhaps that particular "South Park" reference should be removed, as it hardly seems germaine. - Nunh-huh 02:39, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I haven't watched the episode in question either, but a Google search shows several results regarding South Park and this version of the game. In that case, I can't see many reasons to delete the reference. The explanation clearly shows that it's a different version of the Rochambeau game, and not Rochambeau itself (so there's no confusion). I guess the "male" part should be removed from the maths section, since it doesn't belong there. Mackeriv 02:49, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have seen the episode, and the game is called Rochambeau, but consists of kicking your opponent in the balls. It's hard to see how this is a "version" of Rochambeau! I'm make that clear in the carticle. - Nunh-huh

[edit] Names

Is it worth pulling out all the comments on what we call this game into a separate section in the article? I'm thinking "rock paper scissers," "stone paper scissors," "rochambeau," etc., and info about where they're used or any history known. I think the section would contain only traditional names for the game, with ones such as "cat tinfoil microwave" and "cow microbe UFO" remaning in the "variations" section, as they also have different hand gestures and may be newer versions rather than traditional names. --zandperl 02:20, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've seen other pages where this information is summarized in a table, which seems like a good move. Like for all the naming variations where all that's changed is the name of the possible plays (and maybe the accompanying gestures) we could just have a four column table (for the names of the three plays and the fourth column for notes on changes to the canonical gestures). The variations of names for the game itself could also be made into a table with maybe just a column for the name and a column of notes on the origin. Maybe also a column with the google score?
I've never done a table for wikipedia, so if someone else thinks this is good I wish they'd do it... --Chinasaur 07:30, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • I moved them all to an Other name section and linked it from the top. Wikibofh 23:51, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oddest Location Observed Game Used (as a nonparticipant)

  • 1988 Kabukicho Shinjuku Tokyo - 2 men played Jan-Ken-Pon to volunteer for a sex show act that involved a see-through lucite platform and felatio. I was pretty stunned to see how calmly adults played the game. - ZenPupDog

[edit] On the Lighter Side

Why was this section removed? It was fantastic! Nova77 01:06, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)


I added a Japanese variation, yakyu ken, strip janken. Feel freed to add if you have the same stuff in your country. FWBOarticle

[edit] South Park episode...

In South Park Episode 112 (Mecha-Streisand), Cartman challenges several characters to 'Roshambo' (Pip, Kyle, and Streisand). However, he describes the game as a nad kicking contest. One player kicks the other in the nuts as hard as he/she can. They take turns doing so, until one can't take it anymore. Is their any other evidence of this game?

In Israel, besides Rock-Paper-Scissors, kids more commonly choose with a game called Pair or Single (some say it's called Moira in English).

My SO and I use rock, paper, scissors to decide all kinds of mundane things, like who pays for groceries (it all evens out at the end of the month so that we both pay half, but actually getting our Interac cards out is such a pain in the butt).

One time we did this in Safeway at about 10:45 at night. The cashier was just about to get off her shift and she looked pretty tired. My SO and I both had our wallets secreted away, and so we used rock, paper, scissors to decide who had to pay that time.

I don't think I've ever seen a cashier trying harder not to laugh. =D

As seen on The Simpsons: LISA (thinking): Poor predictable Bart. Always chooses rock. BART (thinking): Good ol' rock. Nothing beats rock. Lisa throws paper, Bart throws rock. BART: DOH

[edit] Variations cleanup and new "... in Fiction" section

The section on "Variations" is currently a mess with little organization and related things put no where near each other. I'd like to do a significant reorganization there, and pull out a new section called "Rock, Paper, Scissors in Fiction" which would include variations from Piers Anthony, That 70's Show, and South Park. Any objections? --zandperl 23:25, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC) Not from me. Get to it :> The Steve

First shot at rework now up. I reorganized "variations" into "cosmetic" and "functional," and moved a few of the other versions into the "related games" section. I did not create an "in fiction" section, though we can still do so. What I'm concerned about right now is that the article is getting large. What size is good for a Featured Article? Should we break this into subpages? Go ahead and be bold and fix it up more yourself. --zandperl 17:13, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Should the Janken page should be folded into this one, including the extra round variants ("Look... Over... There!")? 202.173.128.90 05:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cat, Microwave, Tinfoil

I would be interested in knowing how the shapes of these objects are simulated with the hands, if anybody has an idea. I for one cannot contort my hands to look like them. [[User:Livajo|力伟|☺]] 05:33, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] removed aim bot plug

it's simply spam [[User:GregNorc|GregNorc|Talk]]

[edit] Removed History

I removed the following text:

==History==
The game originated in Egypt at around 2000 BC and was then passed to Greece and then on to the Romans. In ancient Rome it was named Micatio and playing it was called micare digitis, literally to "flash the fingers". As time passed the name became Mora which is a corruption of the verb micare. It was so common in ancient Rome that there was a proverb to denote an honest person: Dignus est quicum in tenebris mices, which meant: So trustworthy, that one might play Mora with him in the dark. It was so common that micatio was used to settle disputes over merchandise sales in Roman forums. This practice was later banned by Apronius, prefect of the city.

The reason is that micatio seems to refer to a game still played in some parts of France and Italy, called mourre, mourra or morra, which is totally different from RPS. In this game, both players simultaneously announce a number and show a certain number of fingers. The winner is the one who tells the total number of fingers shown by both players. _R_ 03:10, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I just thought of a new one. It's three player. Add a human which beats everything, but when two humans are played, they reproduce and start several nations, which burn too many fossil fuels and start the greenhouse effect and they all die; the other guy wins by default. — Daniel 04:59, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Strategy distilled

Sirlin ( http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Yomi.htm ) describes how RPS isn't just used in, well, rock paper scissors, but rather in most strategy games you'll find anywhere ( http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_rps.htm ). He talks about RPS in terms of 2D fighter video games like Street Fighter, but it's frequently referenced when it comes to Real Time Strategy games like StarCraft... and I've seen it in turn based strategy games like Risk. In these war games, the three moves are usually called "Attack, Defend, Expand". Defending beats attacking beats expanding beats defending. I always find it fascinating how simple games like RPS can be used to explain much more complex games. I mean, heck... look at all the milegae Prisoner's Dillema gets! RPS is the same. A simple concept that can be seen all over the place elsewhere.

Not sure this has any place in the article, but I thought it interesting enough to mention on the talk page at least. Fieari 20:44, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

He also talks about how a strategy game actually gives some of the options a higher value. So if rock gave more points for winning, then it would be used more, but then paper would obviously start to get thrown more as a counter, and as paper starts to dominate scissors will start to get thrown more - which is countered by the original strategy of throwing rock! RPS also applies to Warcraft III the following way: Teching > Massing > Expanding > Teching etc. -Iopq 17:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Debate

The second paragraph claimed that univeristy debate used rps to determine who "goes first". At least for the debate known a policy debate, this is false. The team who is assigned "affirmative" always speaks first and who is affirmative is determined by a computer scheduling program since everyone must be ensured the same number of affirmative and negative round in the tournament (which wouldn't be guarenteed by rps). If this is referring to some other sort of debate, feel free to add it back in with a reference to which type of debate uses it. --best, kevin ···Kzollman | Talk··· 16:35, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tv-screenshot to illustrate a pop culture example?

Template:Tv-screenshot looks like no.

I have a close screenshot of the hands and a shot of the people in rps position from my Stargate Atlantis example which I could thumbnail for the pop culture section. But it looks like it wouldn't qualify as fair use for this article. Does anyone have a good reason why I should add it? --MeekSaffron (Jaffa,Tree!) 17:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree with your assesment. I think those could improve the article, but alas, we don't get that choice. :) Wikibofh(talk) 21:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks Wikibofh. It might be valid for the article about that episode once I or someone writes a good-sized summary. I'd like to include it here too, but unless someone can give me a license-relevant reason, I won't. I suppose I could italicise a note (includes picture) with the Siege Part I link, but it wouldn't be the same, for good and ill. --MeekSaffron (Jaffa,Tree!) 22:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
  • There's some possibly interesting thoughts here about playing RPS with 3 players. But even if something interesting gets written on it, Tv-screenshots cannot be used except to illustrate the program in question, correct? --MeekSaffron (Jaffa,Tree!) 22:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
    • That's the way I read it. Wikibofh(talk) 22:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gambit

This article does not mention gambits, which are series of three throws that players use to prevent getting predictable. The player picks all three throws up front, so they won't try to and modify their second and third throws based on the opponent's first throw, thus getting themselves caught in a trap. --Cyde Weys votetalk 03:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks like User:Savidan's got you covered. I'll create Category:Rock, Paper, Scissors to organize the articles. Melchoir 03:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subliminal Strategies

I cant verify this other than anecdotally, but Ive found that the best strategy is to throw whatever would beat that which would beat what you won with previously. For example, say I win with rock to my opponent's scissors. Subliminally, they're going to want to throw paper next, because it beats the rock I used last play. Knowing this, I throw scissors.

I think the easier way to think about this is to throw the throw that just lost. (Since it's a modular game, going two steps forwards--"throw whatever would beat that which would beat what you won with previously"--is the same as one back. So: "For example, say I win with rock to my opponent's scissors." Then, since scissors just lost, "I throw scissors." Tie? Make up your own rule. Of course, this only applies if you choose a response to each round. With gambits this is an irrelevant strategy. Gidklio 20:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Futurama

Futurama had an episode where Zap Brannigan arrested the delivery crew for having a large pair of scissors and he mentions something about the game. Perhaps somebody can watch it to see what was said and add it.

Zapp: "Rock crushes scissors! But paper covers rock... and scissors cuts paper! Kif, we have a conundrum."
Kif: *sighs*
Zapp: "Search them for paper... and bring me a rock."

164.55.254.106 18:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] in BiH

In Bosna i Hercegovina a similar game is played, but I can't remember what it's called. A guy from my neighbourhood explained it to me, but being a novice I couldn't sync to the timing, which is different from RPS. Also, the BiH one is with three people. Basically everyone holds out a hand and rhythmically alternates palm-up and palm-down positions, and on the fourth beat everyone picks which side their palm faces. The odd one out - for example, the palm-upper if the other two have their palms down - is the loser/winner.

Anyone with more of a clue than me might want to start something on it.

--Esseye 03:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Game Theory BS

Playing Ro Sham Bo perfectly randomly is not the ideal way to play according to Game Theory. Rather, it is simply an unexploitable strategy that gives you no advantage whatsoever. By playing perfectly randomly, you are eliminating any weakness in your own strategy, but also eliminating any weakness in your opponent's strategy. You are exercising an option to create a Nash Equilibrium at will. If you are playing perfectly randomly, then it doesn't matter what strategy your opponent uses -- you will simply have a 50% probability of winning each match. Optimally, you'd want to exploit a winning strategy against an opponent you know you can beat, and fall back on perfect randomness if you're up against a superior opponent.

-looks like u explained it just fine 24.107.2.65 00:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)WhargouL

[edit] Long lists

The lists of international variations and of pop culture references had become absolutely absurd in number. I understand the problems with maintaining a slim list in light of people's desire to add their favorite reference in. As a result, I have moved international variations to Rock, Paper, Scissors variations (which already existed) and I have created List of pop culture references to Rock, Paper, Scissors and moved that list there. I have made brief remarks in each section, which could probably be improved. It is my intention, however, to keep these to a couple of paragraphs and not allow the sections to grow to their previous size. Sound cool to everyone? --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 01:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Cool. Thanks for being bold. --BACbKA 13:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serious problem with this article

The "World RPS Society", where some of the information in this article comes from, is a comedy website. It's an extended sophisticated joke. The humor is subtle enough that apparently many people have taken it seriously, to the point where (assuming that there really was Fox Sports Net coverage of this), the joke is in some ways becoming real... but it's still a joke. As there's no way of knowing which (if any) part of the content of the world rps society website is accurate, it cannot be used as a wikipedia source. For now, I'll just add the Fiction tag to the article. --Xyzzyplugh 15:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the section. As I take it this is the only fictional part of the article, I removed the fiction tag as well. --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 21:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The problems go beyond that. The "world rps society" has been pushing their joke/hoax/ for years now, to such an extent that it becomes difficult to know whether any source on this subject is valid, since so many others take material directly from the world rps website without apparently realizing it's a joke. Note that "The Official Rock Paper Scissors Strategy Guide", listed as a reference for this article, is also by this same group. Amazon.com's review for it uses the phrases "Beginning with a tongue-in-cheek history", and "faux-serious handbook". Note that the "USA Rock Paper Scissors league", website http://www.usarps.com/, is also a joke site by the same group who put out the "world rps society" website.
I really don't know how to fix this article at this point. The "world rps society" hoax has been successful to the point that they've managed to infect, if you will, every other source on the topic. Apparently, according to http://www.forbes.com/execpicks/fyi/2005/0407/061.html , there really are events being held called "rock paper scissors championships"; however, the author of the above article didn't appear to realize that they were "real" to the extent that professional wrestling is real. I'm gonna put the Not Verified tag on this article for now.--Xyzzyplugh 23:42, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the article as a whole is too infected by USARPS nonsense to be useful. We can easily enough remove references to bogus competitions without affecting other details. For the record, I can only vouch for two real competitions in which I have participated: Darse Billing's programming contest, and the annual BARGE event in August in Vegas (which has featured other notable poker players like Ferguson and Hellmuth). --LDC 00:21, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I know little about this topic. If you could find a way to differentiate between fact and fiction on this topic, it would be appreciated. The majority of the article is completely unsourced. For example, is the gambits section fictional? How would we verify this? It looks to me like the gambits section comes from www.worldrps.com/gambits.html which may mean it's fiction. --Xyzzyplugh 02:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I can vouch for the existence of RPS competition associated with the World Series of Poker, I saw coverage of the event on ESPN. By that I mean actual coverage of the actual event, not just a mention of its existence. Also, the following source [1] is a book that contains information on gambits. Regardless of whether or not the WRPS was the initial cause of this information or not, it is now published and deserves coverage on our encyclopedia. I will remove the hoax tag from the gambits section. --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 03:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Kzollman, the source you link to is a chapter from The Official Rock Paper Scissors Strategy Guide, which is part of the joke/hoax put out by the World RPS Society. The author's of this book are Douglas and Graham Walker, who according to http://www.forbes.com/execpicks/fyi/2005/0407/061.html are the same people who run the World RPS Society. See Amazon.com's page on this book, where publisher's weekly refers to the book as "faux-serious". This illustrates my point about the problem with this article. It's clearly difficult for anyone to tell fact from fiction at this point, as the hoax has permeated all aspects of coverage on this topic.--Xyzzyplugh 04:45, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, the lesson from this whole fiasco is: never be funny. That makes enverything easier for everyone :) Well shit. I'm actually not sure what to do about this. X: do you have any nice long (real) sources about the WRPS that I could use to compose a good section about them? --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 23:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid not. I've searched around, and it appears that no one has yet written a real article explaining the worldrps joke/hoax. If you want some personal evidence that the site is a hoax, the best way to see it is to look through their old pages from the Internet Archive. In the earlier years, the joke was more obvious. For example, see this page from 2003: http://web.archive.org/web/20030207120658/www.worldrps.com/archive/index.html Unless you believe that the worldrps society was having diplomatic relations with the soviet union, involved in major WWII meetings between leaders of the Allies, etc, you have to see that this is fiction. --Xyzzyplugh 02:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, thank you very much for pointing this out. I hope that my haste in dealing with the situation doesn't make it appear that I'm not appreciative. I'm glad you took the time to point out what I take to be an emense embarasment. This is the reason for my haste. --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 04:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

As the author responsible for much of the WRPS Tournament results content I am very saddened to see the removal of the WRPS tournament section. I have no ability speak to the WRPS society organization or website - but I have been personally present at each WRPS International World Championships since 2003 (October of that year). The tournaments were conducted as indicated in the tournament sub-section of the article and have been covered by mass media too numerous to mention here; As a simple Google news search for "rock paper scissors world championships" will attest. The "videos" section of the WRPS.com website (yes I understand it's problematic to use the source under debate as a reference but bear with me) contains actual tournament video coverage by CNN, CBC, Fox Sports Net, and NSK Japan - especially the "media highlight reel". At the 2005 championships this fall 1024 competitors from around the world entered, playing for a top prize of $10,000 Canadian. I have personally met 3 of the previous World champions: Peter Lovering, Rob Kruger, and Andrew Bergel - none of whom had anything to do with the WRPS organization, they were competitors the same as I. I also have spoken firsthand with many players who have played at other WRPS tournaments throughout the year including tournaments in Washinton D.C., New York City, and the Roshambo Winery in Healdsburg, CA (their website at roshambowinery.com has a 2006 installment listed for this June). The size and scope of the photo gallery at wrps.com alone is defence (to my mind) against your argument that the tournaments are "hoaxes" due solely to the size and scope of the photos. To fake an archive of this size (costumes, set dressing, decoration, extras) would take hundreds of thousands of dollars.

While I understand that one of the underlying tennants of WRPS tournaments (adopting pro-wrestling style "personas" and flamboyant costumes) makes it an obvious candidate for scrutiny - these are absolutely real competitive events being conducted across North America by an existant organization which, draws score of international competitors and spectators, and has been amply documented by non-first-party media. I can't imagine what possible criteria this doesn't meet to merit inclusion here.

I recognize that I was absent from Wikipedia while much of the above discussion was happening, for which I apologize, but I would very much like to hear arguments why the tournament section should not be reinstated.TheBigSmoke 18:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Brief addendum,
Having reviewed Xyzzyplugh's edit comments one of the bones of contention to the tournament section seems to be the argument that the format used for WRPS events (the so-called "best of three of three") is not long enough to effectively determine pattern behaviour in one's opponents. While there is likely some truth to that (some percentage of relative beginners usually make it to the final 16 in any given year (which requires a minimum of 16 match victories out of a field of 1024) there are certainly players who consistantly make high-level results which would otherwise be a statistical anomaly. I am afraid I am going to have to rely on psedonym occasionaly as many are not players I'm personally acquainted with outside of the tournament personas but the Washington DC players "Master Roshambolla" and "Midnight Rider" have consistantly placed in the top quarter of the field each year. Montreal, Canada's Mark Rigeaux has made the final 8 two out of the past three years, and US competitor Andrew Bergel (who I incorrectly discribed above as a world champion, I was thinking of Lee Rammage) has made the final 4 in each of the last two years. For that matter Lee Rammage was the 2004 world champion and made the final 4 last year. While some statistical anomaly is likely, that number of consistant results is surprising if the game were pure chance (and I acknowledge the fact I only am personally aware of a small number of players at any given tournament - there may be better examples of sustained tournament results). Certainly in my post-game discussions with the individuals references above I never got the slightest impression that any had any involvement with the tournament organization (the so-called "World RPS Society") other than their competing in events ("Master Roshambolla" is the exception - he was a commentator for the 2003 Fox Sports Net television special, and has written on the WRPS website - so he may have some broader affiliation. That being said, he was certainly travelling to last years tournament out of his own pocket given our discussion on travel and accomodations).
As much as the WRPS forums can be home to bluster, hyperbole, and self-aggrandization there are also very detailed and informed articles on opponent profiling, game psychology, common pattern responses, reading "tells" (so-called "wrist adductions" which are indicative of upcoming throws) and meta-game strategy to try and make reliable repeatable gameplay decisions in a very short period of time. Yes, it is still absolutely possible for novices to defeat more advanced players on occassion, which is why I enjoy the events particularly, but the same can be said of almost any competitive sport to some degree. Perhaps the closest parallel would be the World Series of Poker - which has shown far more volatility in their final tables in the past three years than the RPS events I've participated in. TheBigSmoke 21:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WRPS Reinstated

I have allowed a week "cooling off" period since my previous post decrying the editing to the WRPS tournament section of this article and, having received no comments in that time, I have restored the WRPS tournament section. I don't believe there's anything in my restore that contradicts the original concerns - as no mention is made of anything other than verifyable competitive events the society has run. To try and mitigate some of Xyzzyplugh's concerns however, I have cited numerous major-media coverages of the tournaments in the article (including the Washington Times, CBS, NPR, Rolling Stone, CNN, Fox News), as well as linked the photo archives of the events. To add scope to WRPS activities I've also began a list of WRPS sanctioned tournaments with independant web presences. As I stronly believe it was not NPOV, I attempted to re-write the "WRPS Hoax" sub-heading in NPOV, however I found that impossible given the underlying tennent of that section (That an organization I know to run competitive sporting events is, without question, an elaborate hoax). I settled on re-writing this section as a "WRPS detractors" sub-heading. Although now NPOV I don't find it to be particularly strong writing, so I would appreciate it if Xyzzyplugh, kzollman, or anyone behind the original "Hoax" writings would either remove it (if they have been swayed by the additional citation and reference I've since posted) or, alternately, re-write that section to better represent their new position given the new material added. TheBigSmoke 18:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up and changes

At the moment, this article falls far short of the current stadards for featured articles. It is poorly formatted, does not contain much information, and has no references. This article needs a thorough clean-up, otherwise it will be listed as a candidate on Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates. The wording in the article is of poor quality, the lead paragraph needs to be expanded, but most of all, this article needs to have refences and citations!

Páll (Die pienk olifant) 08:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with PZFUN, and started the farc. The reality is that sources are not available for the majority of this article and no one is engaged in finding them or removing dubious content. savidan(talk) (e@) 16:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Chart

I suggest the chart at the top be removed. Its labels are wrong.--And Introducing... A Leg 15:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Withdrawn -- Now correct.--And Introducing... A Leg 16:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tournament re-ordering

Kudos to Q0 and various anonymous for cleaning up the citations and external links sections. Also to NowahBaloon for adding USARPS tournament information. It is my understanding of Wikipedias style guide (Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles) that subsections should follow the same "principle of least astonishment" as pages - As such, USARPS which is chronologically newer (and, if I've read their site correctly, uses WRPS standardized ruleset) should not be the lead-off subsection. I have moved this section to 9.2 accordingly.

I also removed the unreferenced "critcism" sub section as the only references to the "hoax theory" I could find were from the [Message Board] and were (if I am not mistaken) left by the same Xyzzyplugh who had created the initial section, which I had re-edited to NPOV. If anyone else shares this opion, please revert and re-write as I was unhappy with my NPOV attempt.

Changes were made to the USARPS material. Removed was the reference to 50k being the largest purse in rps history. In 2004, Mei Eden water in Israel hosted a tournament for 1 million Shekels which is about 220k US. I don;t have a link to this but here is the copy from an email sent to me by the brand manager of Mei Eden Water: Eyal Cherry, a 13 year old boy, won the first Israeli National Tournament in Rock, Paper, on August 5th. Eyal took home a prize of 1 million shekel, approximately $220,000. He is from a low income family in Beer Sheva, the city in which 2 suicide bombers killed 16 people earlier this week in 2 simultaneous bus attacks. The line "and a spot in history" was removed since it is meaningless. Also, the reference to "someone" winning a car was taken out since it is too vague.

[edit] Names in other languages

"also known in Japan as Janken" is in the intro right now. I don't think that this deserves such highlighted coverage. The foreign language names should be in a subsection of the alternate names which one day may even become long enough to warrant its own article. savidan(talk) (e@) 17:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Supposed russian version

The article claimed 'In Russia there are 3 more additions to it: along with Rock, Paper, Scissors you also say Pencil, Fire, Water (Pencil beats Paper and is beaten by everything else; Fire beats Paper, Pencil and is beaten by everything else, Water beats Fire, Pencil, Scissors, Paper and is beaten by a Rock.)' This seems very unlikely, as Water would always be better than Pencil, Fire or Scissors, so I have removed this part. If anybody can confirm this variant does exist, please add it back in.

[edit] How can there not be a mention of "roshambo" in the article?

The absence of any mention of roshambo as an alternative name seems to me to be a significant ommission. I don't have time at the moment to edit the article to add it, but I'll try to do it later. Just wondering if such a reference has been rejected already. --Nick 18:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How in the world...

How in the world can paper beat rock?! For a rock to beat scissors it has to be like a 3000 pound boulder. If it was, that rock would rip right throught that paper. — Invisible Robot Fish! 12:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You've obviously never tried to cut a rock.

I would like to second that question. Well not really, but expound upon it. If you cover a rock in some paper, that doesnt make it any less a rock. Just like scissors cutting paper, it is still paper, just smaller. And like someone said above, you'd need a really big rock to break scissors (unless they're those crappy plastic ones kindergarteners use). So in rock, paper, scissors, in the real sense, there would be no actual winner. But then again, nobody would play rock, paper, scissors with real rocks, papers and scissors. While it might remove the element of surprise, it might me a bit more fun... Arc88 04:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm going to cut a bunch out of this article again

Much of this article is nonsense, as it stems from the World RPS Society and it's comedy book, "The Official Rock Paper Scissors Strategy Guide". The World RPS Society mixes fact and fiction to such an extent that they and their writings are useless as a source. Read http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188380,00.html and note that the "World RPS Society" began in 1995, but claims to have been founded in 1842, for example. --Xyzzyplugh 12:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World RPS Society history lesson

For those who might be interested: The "world rps society" began as a website in 1995, it was a joke, a parody of a competition website. It pretended to have been around for a century, spoke of international competitions and strategy and master players and such. None of it actually existed, and those who got the joke found it to be highly amusing. The less intelligent thought the joke was real. As time went on, the World RPS society website became more and more popular, and they decided to actually hold a competition. It was all done very tongue in cheek, the prize was small, and presumably everyone there was in on the joke.

The World RPS society put out a book, claiming to be "The Official Rock Paper Scissors Strategy Guide". It was, again, obvious to anyone reading it that this was a joke. The competitions got bigger, and the World RPS Society, who had always made the joke subtle and never broke Kayfabe, managed to get some legitimate news organizations to cover their tournaments.

The whole thing has continued to snowball, and now what was once a joke is becoming real - there really ARE now tournaments with sizeable cash prizes, there's major media coverage, and people are treating the "strategy guide" as if it's a real strategy guide.

All of this makes writing an article on this topic difficult, since it is difficult to now tell fact from fiction. Major media organizations are writing articles presuming that the world rps society is legitimate. And, oddly enough, they are becoming legitimate, as much of what was once pretense is now real. But how to tell which is which? --Xyzzyplugh 13:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

And for those who want a bit of verification of the above, try the following link: http://www.worldrps.com/yotr.html and ask yourself if a single word on that page is true. --Xyzzyplugh 13:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Well since you seem so hellbent on removing the Gambits displayed on the worldrps page I'm going to have to quote you and ask you a question. "Major media organizations are writing articles presuming that the world rps society is legitimate. And, oddly enough, they are becoming legitimate, as much of what was once pretense is now real." So if they are slowly becoming real as many people now follow their strategies then shouldn't these strategies be listed on the page? I feel they definitely should be.
What evidence do we have that many people follow their strategies? A joke/fiction book, "The Official Rock Paper Scissors Strategy Guide", is not evidence of this, nor are quotes from the authors of this book who are playing a role, much in the manner of professional wrestlers. And, I'll repeat my frustration with this topic: the whole thing becomes difficult to write about when so much of the source material fails to differentiate between fact and fiction. --Xyzzyplugh 02:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
From a CBS segment: “There's a lot of strategy, a lot of gambits being played. For example: three rocks in a row, that's the avalanche; three papers, that's the bureaucrat; a rock followed by two papers, a fistful of dollars; and that's really only scratching the surface.” If it's real enough for a major broadcasting company, I think you should seriously reconsider your stance and become more open-minded.
How about a rewrite in which a brief mention is given of the organization as a "semi-satirical" group, with a couple examples of what these gambits are, and then a link to a place that has the complete list? --tjstrf 16:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I would be fine with a section describing the actual nature of the World RPS Society and the "official guide", and mentioning that gambits come from this guide. --Xyzzyplugh 00:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The CBS article listed above, and citation 12 from the article, are both quoting "master roshambolla", who is part of the "world rps society" and who mixes fact and fiction constantly. Citation 12, http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041210-120729-4008r.htm , along with most other articles on this topic, hint at or straight out state that this is not to be taken seriously. The Washington times article from citation 12 quotes Douglas Walker, co creater of the World RPS Society, as saying "If this becomes 100 percent real and legitimate, is there any humor left?" Publisher's Weekly's comments on the "official rock paper scissors strategy guide" call it a "faux-serious handbook" and refer to the "tongue-in-cheek history" the book gives for the game. --Xyzzyplugh 23:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
And, regarding the specific Gambits section which keeps getting re-inserted into the article, its simply a terrible section regardless of whether one accepts the existence of gambits or not. It makes claims like "A serious combatant may practice a gambit thousands of times until the mind has only to name the series of throws and muscle memory takes care of the rest. Much as a great martial artist or dancer will practice the same techniques until their conscious "higher" minds are not needed, and rather it is the "lower" unconscious mind which takes control". This is totally unsourced, and the brief mention of gambits in news articles certainly does not justify this. And the "Professional RPS" section is goofy nonsense. It starts with the self-evident statement that a player winning the first throw out of three will have a huge chance of winning the 2 out of 3 throws (no kidding!), and then goes into great detail pretending this is somehow significant. Even if we found reliable sourced evidence that gambits were being used and taken seriously, the disputed Gambits section still would not be remotely appropriate. --Xyzzyplugh 00:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi Xyzzyplugh. I'm the user who commented on your original "hoax" subsection and tournament info deletion. I actually am in agreement with you on the language and tensing of the contentious gambit section. Or at least I agree with tjstrf in that I think better citation, clearer writing, and less philsophy would be a pre-requisite to inclusion. However, I disagree that the material is "difficult to write about" at all. There are clearly citable and defensible facts (What tournaments happened, who won them, what third-party press wrote about it, how many people competed in them, and players and strategies given more than one (reliable third-party) source). If they are not, they shouldn't be included herein. Period. But by the exact same token however, material shouldn't be dismissed out of hand either because of past events not referenced in the article or relating to the article. For example, no matter the origin of the WRPS, it's a fact that Douglas and Graham Walker wrote a book called "The Official Rock Paper Scissors Strategy Guide "[[2]]. I happen to own a copy. While I absolutely agree there's no doubt that it can be light hearted in tone, I certainly wouldn't call it a joke/fiction book. Taking "Gambits" as an example, pre-scripting throws to increase randomness is certainly a strategy (if not an optimal one). While the "strategies" themselves get somewhat abstract from playing optimal Rock Paper Scissors, the same is no less true of other sports where community consensus on "form" is more important than acheiving objectives (Professional Figure Skating, Kendo, and Western Fencing diciplines come to mind). As anonymous points out above, if enough people adopt a position as cannonical and it is not provably a lie, that at least needs to be mentioned.
I think this is exactly the process that has started on this article in the past months. I disagreed with your assumptions about the WRPS and USARPS touranments given first person experience - but our discussion led (directly or indirectly) to increased citation, and cleaner writing of those sections. As long as proponents on both sides can present indisputable facts to use as article base points, some semblance of NPOV will almost certainly result. TheBigSmoke 18:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
What source material do we have on gambits which is reliable? I would be fine with having a section here on gambits as long as it doesn't mix fact with fiction. While I don't have the RPS strategy guide book, I do have access to the sections on the website, including the internet archive's pages. Here, for example, is one of the earliest copies I could find regarding gambits: http://web.archive.org/web/19981203083628/www.worldrps.com/gambit.html This is from 1998, from before the World RPS Society had begun holding tournaments I believe. To what extent does it match the text in the book? Note that it makes claims like "This move took the 1967 RPS World Championships by surprise" and "Was the first of the Triple Gambits developed in the early 1890s", both completely fictional claims. --Xyzzyplugh 04:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

After reading your comment about Master Roshambolla I read that Washington Post link. I'm not sure exactly where you are claiming that he's mixing fact and fiction. In fact, everyone they talk to in that article seems pretty straightforward about what's going on. What's the beef, then? Just wondering. -JMS

[edit] Regarding good article nomination

This article fails the following criteria for being a good article (see Wikipedia:What is a good article?):

  • (criterion 2a) it provides references to any and all sources used for its material. - rampant {{fact}} tags and two {{not verified}} templates. Even with these in place, I noticed a very large amount of statements in need of citation which were not indicated as such.
  • (criterion 2d) it contains no elements of original research. - the majority of the article is original research. It should not be difficult to find some kind of reliable source from which to take the necessary information from, so this could probably be taken care of fairly easily. However, the problem is currently extreme (particularly in the Cheating and Variations sections), and as such I cannot pass the article.

If you don't mind me doing so, I will aid you guys in the detection of all the original research and claims in need of verification with {{fact}} and {{or}} tags a little later.

Once the issues listed above are resolved, the article may be renominated for consideration. Thanks for your work so far. JimmyBlackwing 17:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable fairness of tournament play

(This is not a comment about the article, but about the way RPS tournament play is conducted.) I confess to being quite surprised to learn that the pairwise game at tournaments is played just as it is in the street -- with both players in full view of each other, revealing their choice of R, P, or S via a physical "throw" of the hand. This allows for winning to be determined by simply having the fastest reflexes for determining one's play at the very last possible moment, after visually detecting the opponent's play a tiny fraction of a second after opponent has begun to irrevocably reveal it physically.

This does not seem to me to be how the game is intended to be played or won, yet it seems impossible to prevent players from using this method if tournament play continues to be conducted in the way it has been.Daqu 22:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, this is off-topic and has nothing to do with the article so I'm not sure why it's here. Secondly, has it never occurred to you that reflexive throwing might be part of the strategy and skill involved in winning RPS? It may very well be an intentional allowance. --tjstrf talk 22:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it does have to do with the article. What is the goal of the game, after all? Is the goal to out-strategize your opponent, or to win by anticipating their throw by a split-second and then adjusting one's own throw to beat that?
If the article does not make clear what the true goal of play is, then it seems to me it would benefit by including that information. I do not know enough to answer this, so I'm only bringing up the question.
Do there exist tournaments where neither player has any information about the opponent's throw until after both have thrown?
Is using the watch-and-adjust-at-the-last-second a legal way to win, according to the rules of the game? Is this strategy commonly used in tournaments?
Inquiring minds want to knowDaqu 00:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

"Rock, Paper, Scissors" was invented in Kyushu in Japan. This is common sense of Japan. It is common sense of Kyushu. In this, there is a lot of clear evidences. Please look at a Japanese version. Please stop the history being fabricated.

The game of Greece and Rome is irrelevant to the "Rock, Paper, Scissors". It is necessary to make another item about the same kind of game. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.157.18.169 (talk • contribs) 07:53, 9 September 2006.

Then find citations. Verifiability, the lovely policy that solves all of these problems. If there are 2 sourced versions of the history, well, then that will get interesting. Also, you were probably unaware of this, but we have a law against making more than 3 reverts of the same material to the same article in the same day. See the three revert rule. So I'll let you off with a warning, but if you revert your version in again, we'll have grounds for a 24 hour long block. --tjstrf 04:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Was the thing to which "Original History section" was wrong able to be understood?Please be and do Fdet the doubt point still. --202.147.217.249 13:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of the truth（Translation from Japanese version）

"Rock, Paper, Scissors" is called "jan ken" in Japan. "Rock, Paper, Scissors" being done now became modern (the 19th end of century)and was born. It is thought that it was designed from ”ken Play” that still remains a lot in West Japan.(It is thought that the element of “Three cowering ken” that exists in Japan from of old joins of "The number of ken" transmitted at the 17th end of the century.) It has caught on worldwide rapidly along with the overseas expansion, the judo, the cartoon, and the animated cartoon of Japan. Play that is called "hon ken" "Nagasaki ken" "suu ken"etc(parlor play) is transmitted from China through Nagasaki at the 17th end of the century and it plays in the feast. After that, the invention of the "Rock, Paper, Scissors" becomes because "ken play" became active in the middle of the 19th century. "Rock, Paper, Scissors" invention is thought this age because the book that researched the “ken play” of the child in Japan in the middle of the Meiji（1868～1912） era is published.

1, 3, and 4 of “the numerical ken” were omitted in “jan ken”. Comprehensible 0, 5, and 2 in the middle are remains. The meaning was newly assumed to be "Stone", "Scissors", and "Paper" and Three cowering was completed.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%81%98%E3%82%83%E3%82%93%E3%81%91%E3%82%93

Introduction of "ken play"（Translation from Japanese version)

"ken play" is a thing of play to fight over the match by two people by opening and shutting of the hand or bending and stretching the finger. They are three people or more, and play that basically decides victory or defeat according to shape though not only the hand but also the one to use the entire body appeared at posterity.Our some of that came to be done also between children though it was play done in the feast. There are a lot of "ken play" around east Asia such as Japan and China.

the numerical ken(kuma ken)

"kuma ken" is a kind of "ken play".It plays around Kumamoto Prefecture Hitoyoshi City. It puts it out at the same time making shape from 0 to 5 from one handIt and struggles mastery. It is told that it started at the Edo period attendance by turns at the shougun's court.

Though it is thought that it became the origin of the "Rock, Paper, Scissors" because three in six kinds of bills are the same as "Rock, Paper, Scissors".The victory or defeat of "Kuma ken" is opposite as "Stone" wins "Paper".

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%90%83%E7%A3%A8%E6%8B%B3

"ken play" was divided roughly and there were "The number of ken(suu ken)" and "Three cowering ken(sansukumi ken)".

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%8B%B3%E9%81%8A%E3%81%B3

"Rock, Paper, Scissors" is originally one of the "ken play" of Japan.

It is not a great antiquity that the Japanese made Jean Ken known to the world.

Many of Japanese elderly persons remember Jean Ken being taught to the European now.

The European did not know "Jan Ken" in the record that remained in Japan until beginning about the 20th century. Then, the Japanese taught the European "Jan Ken". "Jan Ken" came to be called "Rock, Paper, Scissors" in the sphere in English. Because "Rock, Paper, Scissors" had extended too rapidly in Europe, people mistook they to were since the great antiquity.

[edit] Joke History section

There are several different popular theories regarding the origin of Rock, Paper, Scissors.


The so-called "Asian Theory" states that the game originated in Japan under the name of Jan ken perhaps as early as 200 B.C.E..[citation needed] It is believed that with increased contact between eastern and western civilizations the game spread to Europe in the mid 1700s. Some speculate that during this time Rock, Paper, Scissors became inexplicably associated with Jean Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur, Comte de Rochambeau giving rise to the game's alternative western name Rochambeau or the more commonly spelled Roshambo.


The "African Theory", similar to the "Asian Theory", relies on early development of tools by humans in the region.[citation needed]


The "European Theory" contests that the game either started as a Scandinavian pastime which eventually spread to the rest of the continent or was brought by Celtic tribes to Portugal, with time reaching the remainder of Europe.[citation needed]


One member of the World RPS Society's website who goes by the name "Joao V de Portugal" states: "Current research undertaken at the University of Lisbon by Baltasar Rui Delfim, soon to be published in Nature and Time, has shown that the origins of the game of Paper, Scissors and Rock (Pihedra, Papelsh e Tijhera) can be attributed to Celtic settlers in the northern regions of Portugal, near the Portuguese/Spanish border, around the 6th century BC. . . . It is believed that the game spread to the rest of Portugal in the 3rd century BC and to the rest of the Spanish peninsula over the next 50 years. Roman invasion of Hispania in the 1st century AD made the game popular in Gallia and Italia." The user then makes the somewhat difficult to believe and so far unsubstantiated claim that "...the Romans did not introduce the game to the UK because they believed that the game could make the UK colonies rebel against the Senate and it was not until the Portuguese armada of 350 AD came to England that the game was properly introduced in Britannia."[1]

[edit] 1939-1945 Championship

Winston Churchill pulls scissors
Enlarge
Winston Churchill pulls scissors
Hitler plays paper, ultimately forfeiting World War II
Enlarge
Hitler plays paper, ultimately forfeiting World War II

[edit] Controversial 1968 Championship

Image:Blackpower.jpg
Tommie Smith and John Carlos with their winning call of "Rock" in the 1968 Olympic RPS championship, narrowly beating the hippies' "Scissors"

[edit] Removal of paragraph

I've removed the paragraph about the use of the game to resolve childrens' trivial disputes. I don't think it belongs here as its not easily verifyable; it certainly doesn't belong in the lead section. Graham87 12:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

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