Talk:Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell

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[edit] Again, about the name

So, to summarize, Mackensen said that it should be either the current name or simply Robert Baden-Powell. I think the latter would be much more sensible. Actually, in Italy he's more known as "B.-P." (sometimes without the dots), but Robert Baden-Powell is still OK. In the german-speaking world the situation is similar (except that they call him BiPi). So, is there any reason we shouldn't rename this article as "Robert Baden-Powell" ?

--Lou Crazy 23:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

At this point, I don't favor one over the other (although naturally the intro would remain unchanged). You're right, though, that those are the only two choices. Mackensen (talk) 23:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
About the intro, what would be the most correct way to include the word Gilwell in it? It ought to be mentioned if we can do it easily (otherwise we'll have a lengthy explaination in later text). --Lou Crazy 01:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Proteus is the resident expert on territorial designations; for my part the territorial designation is fairly unimportant and would be difficult to include in the intro. Mackensen (talk) 01:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Still, it is quite important in this case, because Gilwell Park has been the centre of Scout Leader training since 1919. I'll ask Proteus... --Lou Crazy 03:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The only place it's really appropriate to mention it is where it already is mentioned: "Baden-Powell was created Baron Baden-Powell, of Gilwell in the County of Essex, in 1929, Gilwell Park being the International Scout Leader training centre", so if you want it in the opening paragraph you'd really just have to have that sentence (or a variation) in the opening paragraph as well as in the full text. I agree with Mackensen, though, that territorial designations are generally unimportant. Proteus (Talk) 10:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

While they might be generally unimportant, in this particular instance they are. He used the Gilwell title very often. During the '30s, all his books had the byline "Lord Baden-Powell of Gilwell". Of course, in the '20s he used "Sir Robert Baden-Powell, Bt". Scouts around the world call him either B.-P. or "Baden-Powell" or "Lord Baden-Powell of Gilwell", so Gilwell should be mentioned early on. Have a look at how I changed the opening paragraph. --Lou Crazy 01:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Racist?

Everyone's reading this and freaking out, right? I do not know Baden-Powell's personal feelings about blacks and so I will not throw serious charges around regarding the Father of Scouting. It is clearly proven in the historical record that in his defense of Mafeking part of his success was due to rationing, which favored whites over blacks. At one point he ordered a significant portion of the native population of the city to be cut off from all food from the local supplies. This less than honorable series of decisions is very well outlined in Thomas Pakenham's definitive text on the war, The Boer War, Random House, 1979.

B-P also armed native Africans and allowed them to fight in the defense of their own city over 50 years before the United States army would allow blacks to fight on the front lines. This decision was decried by Boers and British alike, with a Boer general even writing him a letter, saying, "It is understood that you have armed Bastards, Fingos and Baralongs against us—in this you have committed an enormous act of wickedness ... reconsider the matter even if it cost you the loss of Mafeking ... disarm your blacks and thereby act the part of a white man in a white man's war."

Should a man who became a legend fighting in Africa be taken out of context by ignoring his relationship with the very people who were native to that land? Baden-Powell lived with, dealt with, and thought about black Africans every single day of his famous deployment, it would be ridiculous for us to be unable to address it when we recount his memory today. User:The Frog

I agree with frog and the preceding statement. He fought in Africa for a reason, and if he were a racist, do you even think for one minute he would not commit war crimes in South Africa? Baden-Powell served with distinction in the Boer War, and his treatment of his enemies and the African people is nothing short of honorable. Эйрон Кинни (t) 07:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. Baden-Powell was not a saint. As The Frog says, by today's standards, many people would find some of his actions far from honorable. This sort of criticism would also apply to a great many Victorian military men. Zaian 10:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
A little late to the party - but pretty much everybody at that behaved in ways that current society would abhor - remember, this was a time where no democracy allowed women the vote, where slavery was still rife in many parts of the world (and where it had been abolished, treatment of ex-slave peoples was still quite poor).

BP was a man of his times - and while we must, with current values being as they are, agree that his preferential treatment of whites over blacks in Mafeking is now unethical, no-one would have batted an eyelid 100 years ago... and I think that the native population had a rougher time of it from the Boers during and definitely after the war than simply "short rations"... This is the danger of retro-critiquing - applying our values on old times... But to call him a racist when he made these decisions at a time when the word hadn't been invented? Horus Kol 11:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stephe (rhymes with Livy)

Thats not very helpful. --Dumbo1 16:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recommendations for GA-approval

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.

  • Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.
  • There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City. (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
  • There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. For example,
    • allege
    • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).
  • Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
  • Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions (and the javascript checklist; see the last paragraph in the lead) for further ideas. Thanks, Wim van Dorst (Talk) 07:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The above recommendations are now only a few. These should be taken care of during a Peer review and further development of the article. Several sections need further attention, e.g., his Scouting activities need more coverage, and his writer's work should be better mentioned. I'll grant the GA status now. Congratulations to the team. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 07:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Text for safeguarding

Baden-Powell is often abbreviated to "B-P" (with various punctuations). The well known motto of the Scouts, Be Prepared, also plays on these initials.

[edit] Issues to be solved for A-Class status

There are several image files in the wikicommons for B-P. Two of these are derived from the Jagger-painting. All have very dubious copyright tags, so this definitely needs corrections. We ought to find a good free picture for the article. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 07:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC).

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.

  • Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.
  • There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City. (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
  • There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. For example,
    • allege
    • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).
  • Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
  • Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions (and the javascript checklist; see the last paragraph in the lead) for further ideas. Thanks, Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jeal's book

In several articles this book is given the title Baden-Powell: Founder of the Boy Scouts and stated that it was published by the Yale University Press. The copy in front of me is called just Baden-Powell and it is published by Hutchinson in London. Since Jeal was British I suspect that this is the original publication, but I could be wrong. If I am correct, then all the references should be changed. It may also mean that the page numbers are incorrect. --Bduke 00:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Oh, dear, oh, dear. The copy that I have in front of me is clearly named Baden-Powell too, and it is published by Pimlico (paperback, 670 pages). Fortunately, it is explicitly mentioned that this is Pimlico Edition 1991 and first published by Hutchinson 1989. So you and I have a similar edition. Searching around (also outside WP) I cannot find any reference to another title to the same book, nor is there anywhere a subtitle or so mentioned. And the reference is clearly to the 1989 publication. I guess it is wrongly titled here on WP. And I didn't check the page numbers either. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 01:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC).
  • Actually reading Baden-Powell: Founder of the Boy Scouts (book), it is very much the same as Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation, which I now both would recommend for much copy-editing. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 01:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC).
  • Continuing search reveals that the refence is about the book The Boy-Man, The life of Lord Baden-Powell. 670pp, illustrated, New York, William Morrow & Company. I read this in the recension in the NYT of 1990-04-01. Probably a US edition of the real book. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 01:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The Jeal book deals with far more than BP's alleged homosexual/bisexual orientation; see merge discussion on orientation article's talk page and Talk:Robert_Baden-Powell,_1st_Baron_Baden-Powell/ArchiveTo30March2006. Rlevse 10:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I see that the article about the book is now taged for merge. If it is merged there will be nothing left. I have been concerned about this article for a while. I do not think that the book is in any sense notable enough for an article. It is simply the best bio about B-P and it should be the main source for the article on B-P. The presence of an article on the book implies to me that the book is not a good source for the article on B-P but rather a bad source which should not be used but its badness makes it notable enough for an article. There do seem to be some people in Scouting who think that, but it seems quite false to me. I am trying to find enough time to read it all, but keep failing. However, the section of his spy activities is interesting because for many of B-P's stories, Jeal can find no sources. He suggests that B-P exagerates his activities and maybe was even inventing some of the stories. This needs to be mentioned in the article. There is also the account of Mafaking where I gather, from a local Scouting historian, that Jeal debunks the suggestion that B-P allowed the blacks to starve. I think we need to incorporate much more from this bio into the B-P article, move some of the book article to the sexual controversies article and then delete the book article. --Bduke 11:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be well to merge the book article back into the B-P one. If I remember well, it smacked of being a POV fork when first created. As for B-P creating his own myth (and maybe coming to believe in it himself), that is not at all surprising - people do that, it is how myths are created, and debunking those myths is what historians do. Haiduc 13:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Merging the book into the article will only work if the WHOLE BOOK, not just the POV-oriented 5% dealing with his alleged and unproven homosexual leanings, is used; which is what happened last time and what led to the book being forked out.Rlevse 18:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Rlevse, for pointing out that the relevant section in this article had been cored out. I replaced most of the missing material, with some minor edits for clarity. As for your contention about Jeal and 5% and POV, come on, man. You by now must be fully aware that the whole thrust of Jeal's book was that B-P did not give a hoot about women except as pals, and preferably adolescent ones at that, while they still retained much of their boyish appeal. Let's not make the man into a skirt chaser now. I thought we had reached some balance here, need we start the whole discussion back up "da capo al fine"? Haiduc 19:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
See the old talk link about the multiple pages about his interest in women. His book deals with the whole man, not just his sexual orientation--whatever it was or may have been. The 5% is based on pages devoted to the subject, which was well-established the last time, so saying "come on, man" should point back at yourself and saying that was the whole thrust of the book seems misguided to me as if it were the whole thrust, much more than 5% would be devoted to it. Societal standards of the time had women in lower, subservient status and often relegated to minor roles and BP being in line with that does not make him homosexual or bisexual. As he is not here to defend himself, we'll never know the absolute conclusive truth on the matter. And no, I don't want to start the debate all over again. I will only repeat what I've said: if we use the book as a ref for the main article, it should be the whole book, not just 5% as Jeal certainly deals with many parts of BP's life other than his sexuality, or just leave it as it is with the couple of paras on the subject with the link to the sub article as that had at least achieved an equilibirum on the matter. On a side note, I find it fascianting that many of us have spent all this time on this subject when you don't see these lengthy debates on other people who were/are or may have been homosexual and none of this can be conclusively proven in the first place re BP. Rlevse 19:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Guys, I've read the book. Completely. Twice. It really is good reading. And it definitely is only for a part focussing on his alleged sexual orientation. I therefore propose :

  • to merge that kind of info from the book-page to the sexualorientation-page, leaving the book-page a stub, and the sexualorientation-page complete, and good to focus on that subject alone. Then
  • to enhance the book-page to present the various titles it has (US version has a different title from UK version), and more info from the whole book. And last
  • to use the reference more to cover all subjects in the B-P article.

Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC).

Actually there have been a great many debates on the sexuality of historical figures, as we are living through a time of more careful examination of the past. These things have historically been suppressed - look at Byron, Shelley and their circle, just as an example. As for "conclusive proof," that is a false standard of evidence, since you can always hold that carrot just out of reach of the donkey's mouth. Historians seek a preponderance of evidence and draw conclusions from that. No objection to Wim's suggestions. Haiduc 21:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Haiduc: valid point, but think I also made valid points. I also have no objection's to Wim's proposal, but suggest the obvious--the book article needs a link to the orientation page. Rlevse 23:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I fully support Wim's proposal, although I have yet to read the whole book. I wish I could find time. I disagree with Haidoc saying that the whole thrust is about his attitude to women, although you could say a lot of the thrust is about his relationship to his mother, but as mother I think, not a woman. The book seems to me to be a well balanced biography and it should be the main source for the article. He quite rightly states that the earlier biographies by Reynolds and Hillcourt were "entirely uncritical" and hagiographical. He strikes a balance between these and the books by Rosenthal, Gardner and Hynes. As members of the Scouting project, we have to be very carefull. We are not writing a Scouting article about the Founder of Scouting. We are writing an article about a man whose main claim to fame was founding Scouting but who had a successfull military career and was a rather complex character. This article deserves our best work. --Bduke 23:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Bduke above, BP was a complex man with many facets and noteworthy accomplishments. I would like to see this a FA one day, but it's not there yet. Rlevse 23:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The merge/move/copy-edit has been done. I'm now left with:

  • a BP article with a good reference to Jeal, and proper text to the orientation page. The page is currently GA-class, and needs work to get it to A-Class.
  • a BP(book) page with good information, but at Start level. It needs more content. At least it is NPOV and correct.
  • a sexual orientation page, with wide information. It needs copy-editing for focus. This page will always be POV dependent.

Anyone, feel free to dig in. I'm back to B-P House research. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Citation needed

There is a citation needed at the bottom of the article. This quote "98. Lord Baden Powell wanted a section on the dangers of "self abuse" in his Scouting for Boys. His original manuscript read: "A very large number of the lunatics in our asylums have made themselves ill by indulging in this vice although at one time they were sensible cheery boys like you."" Is available at this link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4134329.stm but I don't know how to addSchnizzle 13:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meeting Olave before the steamer trip

The book that I'm using is "Baden-Powell: The two lives of a hero" by William Hillcourt with Olave, Lady Baden-Powell, published by The Gilwellian Press: New York, ISBN 0-8395-3594-5, Library of Congres Catalog Card Number 64-24263. The first mention of Olave in the index is their meeting on the steamer, where it says:
"He did not know the other, yet there was someting vaguely familiar about her. He must have met her somewhere. He searched his memory. No. . . . and yet . . . then he remembered: her gait, that quick determined gait. He couldn't be wrong.
. . .
Now to find out if he had remembered correctly. He charged the young lady with lving in London. Wrong. She lived in Dorset.
'But you have a brown and whie spaniel?'
'Yes.' The lady showed surprise.
'And you have been in London? Near Knightsbridge Barracks?'
'Yes, two years ago.'
It was the same girl . . ."
However, BP, although he had apparently inquired after her, had not been introduced to her before this time, I think. I'm now rereading the book to see if it mentions where BP first saw Olave. Banaticus 07:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sexuality

When there is no "evidence of his sexual activity with any males" why don't we delete??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.78.207.78 (talk • contribs).

(New topics go at the bottom of the page- just click the + at the top of the page to add a new topic. Please sign your entries.)

This has been discusse at great depth and is now an archived discussion. The link to the archives is to the right of the table of contents at the top of this page. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

First, let me say that this is quite a good article. I think, like the above writer, that it was the wrong call to include this topic in the article, and it should be deleted. The strongest statement made is that there is research suggesting the possibility of repressed homosexuality. Nowhere is there any hint that he acted on any pederastic or homosexual inclinations - therefore to even allude to the topic is inappropriate, as it hints otherwise.

I have read the article, and the archives. This really does seem to be a bit of speculative gossip, even if well-researched speculative gossip, and does not belong in an encyclopedia . We would never allow this for a living person. The argument is not much deeper than "He founded an organization for boys, so he may have been a bit that way inclined."

It gets more difficult, too, the further away in time we are. The "fascination with the male form" does not provide quite the evidence that it would today. It was part of the zeitgeist across Europe, more or less until WWII ended. It then became unfashionable at least partly because the Nazis had placed such importance on physical perfection, and many things then became tainted by association (e.g. Wagner, and so forth).

By the way, I am not intending to take any kind of ideological stance here. But I do think that some level of evidence is called for. Trishm 07:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Far too much has been said in extremely reputable biographies such as Jeal about his sexual orientation that it simply would be a POV to not mention it. This section has been widely debated along with the article it links to. It just has to be addressed not ignored. --Bduke 07:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to seem obtuse, but assuming that Jeal is absolutely correct, why do we need to address that he was probably homosexual in orientation, but didn't act on it? Trishm 00:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC) Trishm 00:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Because it was clearly an important part of what he was. It may explain why he slept separetely from his wife for example after being ill when he did sleep with her. Jeal is convincing. He is a sympathetic biographier and clearly respects BP. Have you read it? --Bduke 01:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid I don't have access to it. But I have no dispute with Jeal. What I care about is getting the strength of the assertion as presented in Wikipedia in line with the strength of what Jeal has said. Jeal, and the others in the article, qualify their assertions with "probable" and so forth. I am not disputing the sincerity, research or anything else about Jeal. The NY Times book review (which I did have access to) made quite clear how well respected Jeal is. What I suggest is that the heading, "Sexual Orientation", is too strong. A qualifier would be less strident - "Hypotheses on Sexual Orientation", "Probable Sexual Orientation" - anything that indicates that the following text refers to an hypothesis, albeit a good and believable one. BTW, as an allergy sufferer, I can see another mechanism for getting headaches when he is with someone overnight, which disappeared when he shifted rooms. Perfumes would do that. What I am trying to say is that Jeal makes good points, is convincing, and is quite probably right. But even he does not lift his assertions beyond hypothesis. Trishm 03:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds as if you are trying to recapitulate the article in the title, which is a thankless task. The article indicates that the discussion is about his sexual orientation, which it is. Trying to read more into it, or to keep people from reading more into it will just lead to more confusion and speculation. Keep it simple, people are smart enough to figure out what the situation is. Haiduc 04:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Haiduc--long time no see! Nice to see you again. I totally agree with what you just said. At one point we didn't agree no much, huh-;) Rlevse 08:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, well, I concede. I get the impression from your polite brush-off (none of my points were responded to directly) that you wish this topic weren't rehashed. Trishm 09:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change of Article Infobox

Recommend replacing the current biography infobox in the B-P article with a military infobox. It seems more appropriate and a more usefull tool in helping organize and providing better context to the B-P article. Any thoughts or objections? --Ctatkinson 18:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell,
1st Baron Baden-Powell
22 February 1857 – 8 January 1941

Founder of Scouting
Nickname B-P
Place of birth Paddington (London), England
Place of death Nyeri, Kenya
Allegiance British Army
Years of service 1876-1910
Rank Lieutenant-General
Unit 13th Hussars in India (1876);
1880s to 1897 assignments and commands in Southern Africa and as an Intelligence Officer, British Secret Service, based in Malta;
Inspector General of Cavalry, England (1903)
Commands 5th Dragoon Guards in India (1897);
Battles/wars Anglo-Ashanti Wars; Second Matabele War; Siege of Mafeking; Second Boer War
Awards Boy Scouts Silver Buffalo Award (1926)
World Scout Committee Bronze Wolf (1935)
Order of Merit (1937)
Other work Founder of the international Scouting movement; writer; artist.
  • OK with me. Rlevse 19:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC), Scouting project lead coordinator
  • Good idea. I dislike the meagre biography infobox for a long time, but couldn't find a good angle at introducing the WorldScouting infobox either. This one is much better. I copy-edited a few things, and expect to do more in the future. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 00:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC).
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