Talk:Ring circuit

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a few comments (i was the one who destubed this article btw although i wasn't logged in at the time)

seems someone has done a style edit on this page and in doing so added at least one definate error and one possible error

firstly when i said british isles i meant british isles. maybe it is more correct to say united kinddom and republic of ireland but editing it to just united kindom was wrong

secondly while i haven't heard mention of the ring mains use outside of the brish isles that doesn't mean it is only used in the british isles i think i will need to rephrase that bit

Contents 1 Lighting Rings 2 415V ring circuits? 3 How about a diagram? 4 Electrical noise? 5 Merge

[edit] Lighting Rings

ISTR installing lighting rings with my father may years ago. Perhaps he's just a perfectionist? Rich Farmbrough 21:17, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A LOT of laypeople in the uk refer to all cuircuits as "rings" and it is not unheared of to find a lighting cuircuit wired in a ring by a diyer but this is certainly not normal practice. Plugwash 21:53, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 415V ring circuits?

I have been a working electrician for a long time and only met a 3 phase ring circuit once - in a (very) poorly installed workshop. Modern 3 phase installations are invariably radial. (unsigned comment by Alastairrr)

mmm yes when i wrote the first section i didn't mean to imply the ring itself would be three phase just that it was part of a three phase electrical installation. I can see how it could be misread though and will try and make it clearer. Plugwash

I have certainly never heared of anyone using three phase rings though i have never seen it explicitly prohibited anywhere either. I can't think of many situations in which it would be usefull though (maybe if you wanted a LOT of 13A sockets with high total load it might be an idea but the 415V warning stickers everywhere would be a pita).Plugwash 01:55, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How about a diagram?

I found a diagram of a ring circuit in an old British book ( J. W. Sims The Boy Electician, Eighth Edition - couldn't have that title today!) which explained very concisely what was meant by a "ring circuit". DOes anyone feel up to getting us a similar diagram for this article? It would save much explanation. --Wtshymanski 15:51, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

how's this for a first stab? Please let me have any comments --Ali@gwc.org.uk 23:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

good but you should actually show that there is some kind of junction box we don't wan't to encourage people joining cables in mid air with no enclosure ;) also needs to be shown a bit bigger than default thumb size to be clear imo

i've also made some tweaks to the imo rather washed out looking colors and re-done some of the green/yellow lines in a uniform patten (i got bored before i did them all). Plugwash 23:53, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The wiring colours used in the diagram are incorrect - the colours shown are those for the conductors in flexible cables connected via plugs TO the ring! The ring cable conductors are usually black, red and copper(bared ground/earth).

The diagram shows correctly the international standard (IEC 60446) colours that have been recommended in the UK for fixed installations by the IEE wiring "regs" since 2004 (see electrical wiring (UK)), and in most other countries long before that. Markus Kuhn 12:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Electrical noise?

Here in the USA, electrical circuits like these are strictly verboten. ;) The wires run from the breaker, with all sockets in parallel, terminating at the end of each line. Sockets and switches usually have two sets of terminals to make extending a circuit easy. Heavy enough wire is specified so that in a typical house, there is no practical problem with the length of a circuit.

Wire with a 1.5mm cross sectional area, running 250 volts? That makes me want to run screaming into the night! Most audio speaker wire is heavier than that.

can't see the problem with it - the insulation is quite able to withstand the voltage, and the CSA is only relevant for the current carrying capacity (and possibly mechanical strength). It is permissible to use 1.0 mm² cable for lighting circuits which are fused at 5A - the current carrying capacity of the cable is about 13 A so there is plenty of margin there. Flexible cable of 0.5 mm² can be used for light duty appliances flexes. --Ali@gwc.org.uk 11:09, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't they have terrible problems with EMI ring circuits? After reading the article, I seems to me like regulation mandated ground loops from hell.

ring cuircuits are NOT mandated thier just more flexible in use than 20A radials and easier/cheaper to install than 32A radials. it doesn't seem to cause noticable interference problems in normal domestic and commercial installation though i belive its not generally reccomended to use them for studio installations for this reason.

btw we use 1.0mm cable in our lighting cuircuits still at 240V ofc Also let me assure you that pyro isn't exactly a weak cable type ;) Plugwash 20:34, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Ring circuits are a way of installing a circuit using a cable size smaller than an equivelent radial circuit could safely manage as the loadings on the cables are reduced by 50%. These are common in the UK, and a small number of other countries. American readers of this should remember that as the UK uses 240V supplies for single phase services, compared to their circuits, the loading on the cables is reduced by half for a given supply.

Three phase (400V) rings are common in the UK. Some heavy loading buildings, such as older schools, have 400V rings installed in undercrofts in order to supply the various buildings when they are not resticted to a single building. This installation is similar to the types of ring circuits that are installed by supply authorities in towns etc and forming part of the local supply network.

Interference on ring circuits is reduced, if there is any at all, for the same reason the loadings on each leg of the ring are reduced. Properly installed services (Ring or Radial)have little or not EMI as the Phase/Neutral conductors effectively cancel each others magnetic field, and in 400V rings, the Earthed Armouring of the sheath grounds the cable so that any EMI produced is very effectively removed from the cable.

Lastly, lighting circuits should never be installed as a ring inside a building. This is not normal practise and would be extremely dangerous to do so. However some street lighting is installed as a ring in towns, usually on a 400V ring specifically installed for this purpose, with alternating posts on each phase of the service. [SparksJim]: 05:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

what do you belive would be dangerous about installing lighting as a ring? just the fact that someone may not expect it and hurt themselves when working on the system or some issue that would actually affect the normal users of the system? Plugwash 04:01, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Given that the topic of ring circuit is just one particular aspect of the topic of electrical wiring (UK), I propose to merge the former article into the latter. This will avoid overlap and duplication. Markus Kuhn 12:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support, for the reasons stated. Atlant 13:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support - better one comprehensive article than a flurry of stubs. --Wtshymanski 17:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support, I think if there isn't any disagreement by this point, it should be done now since there's been nearly 2 months to discuss this and no one has chimed in against it. I don't have much knowledge in this subject (and since neither is a stub) I don't quite know how to integrate the two, so have at it. Radagast83 04:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Disagree: The use of different forms of electrical installation is a practical, not a political issue. Naming the region of use the British Isles (a geographic , not political area) by the contributor was perfectly correct in this instance. Although the ring main system may be a British phenomenon, it is a recognised technology and should not be relegated to specific electrical installation practices in the UK or any other politically delimited territory..CCS 00:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)