Talk:Retronym

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Contents 1 Vinyl record 2 Rotary-dial telephone 3 Female "Sr."? 4 Catholic 5 charcoal 6 Acoustic guitar? 7 Posthumous names 8 Catherine of Aragon 9 Classic? 10 Sit-down restaurant 11 George H.W. Bush 12 American Football 13 Why is hard cider not a retronym? 14 Feudal? 15 Four-player mahjong 16 Film camera 17 Pocket watch 18 Finfish 19 Splitting of article 20 First Battle of Bull Run

[edit] Vinyl record

"Vinyl record: A term that arose to distinguish 33⅓- and 45-rpm phonograph records (LPs and 45s) from the compact discs (CDs) that have since replaced them for nearly all physical records and record albums."

I don't know that this is appropriate for this article. I believe that vinyl (PVC) records were called vinyl records when they first came into popular use - so as to distinguish them from other (generally earlier) phonograph disks made of other materials like shellac, rubber, metal, glass, etc. So yeah - not really a retronym. As hard as it may be for us to believe now a days, the vinyl record was at one point a technological inovation over earlier forms of recording. :)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record#Early_history for more background... --Blackcats 03:10, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here in Australia there was a somewhat inacurate retronym black record.144.139.87.98

[edit] Rotary-dial telephone

Re: "Rotary-dial telephone"-- For a time these were the newer, more modern variety of telephone, while they were replacing the previously usual standard type of telephone. -- Hello Central, gimme Infrogmation

This raises some interesting questions. Is "rotary phone" actually a retronym, or was it a neologism created when phone companies began replacing the manual switchboard systems with automated switching systems directed by dialing? And did the old-style phones acquire a retronym themselves? -- Jeff Q 22:22, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Female "Sr."?

When I added the retronymic use of "Sr." (senior) for fathers who (foolishly and egotistically, IMHO) name their sons after themselves, I found myself wondering if there are any famous uses of "Sr." for women. I can't think of any, nor can I think of any "feminine" substitute for this practice. It isn't because of lack of need. (My own family includes three generations of Marys and two of Carolyns, as well as four Davids! My Marys have nicknames to distinguish themselves, and the Carolyns just get confused. Who ever invented this practice?!) I suppose it's less frequently necessarily in societies where women adopt the surnames of their husbands when they marry, or where they acquire compound or hyphenated names, but surely this comes up from time to time. Someone famous must have dealt with this issue! -- Jeff Q 09:03, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, certainly before a girl marries she has to be disambiguated from her mother by some means. And if they're going to do it by giving the child a double-barrelled name, then this ought to be just as common for boys. For that matter, how were Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon and Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Windsor commonly known before George VI ascended the throne? -- Smjg 15:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is being disambiguated from one's mother a painful process
(;-)? Joking aside though, wasn't she known precisely as Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon ? Dieter Simon 01:25, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic

Would the term "Catholic" be a retronym, since the Catholic church only started using that term after the advent of Protestantism? ☞spencer195 03:46, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

It was first used (in 1551, according to OED) to mean "universal" in non-ecclesiastical use. So the word itself wasn't invented by Catholics. Not sure if this info helps. --Menchi 04:31, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

A lot of non-Roman Catholics also consider themselves to be Catholic, Eastern and Greek Orthodox for example, and high Anglicanism. A strong case could be made for saying the RC church changed so much after the Schisms that the new term "Roman Catholicism" doesn't refer to the same entity that used to be called ... er something else.

The term was long used to distinguish the church from "heresies" like Arianism, Donatism, and so on. The OED will, of course, only list uses in English. --Iustinus 19:08, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The term was certainly in use by the Council of Nicaea (325 AD) since it appears in the Creed there agreed. Mark O'Sullivan 11:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The earliest extant use of the term Catholic was in the early 2nd century by Ignatius of Antioch, who must have known the apostles, in a letter written shortly before his martyrdom. Dates for this are as various as 107 and 115 AD.—Copey 2 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] charcoal

What about charcoal? Before the advent of the then so-called "sea-coal" in the Middle Ages, charcoal should have been generally known as just "coal". --Cendol 10:19, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Acoustic guitar?

The acoustic guitar is distinguished from the classical guitar in that it has metal strings. I assume that this is the origin of the name, not a retronym after the electric guitar. — Asbestos | Talk 08:37, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually, this would seem to suggest both acoustic guitar and classical guitar are retronyms. Somewhere along the way, these adjectives were added to distinguish a new kind of guitar from whatever was just called a "guitar" before. Perhaps the problem is that the arrival of the electric guitar was not the retronym-spawning event. Does anyone know the etymologies of these variations? — Jeff Q 09:08, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You're probably right. The American Heritage Dictionary has electric->acoustic as their first example of a retronym anyway, so perhaps best to leave it. — Asbestos | Talk 09:50, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Posthumous names

Would the posthumous names entry really be a retronym? It's a name awarded after death, not a name added to distinguish it from something modern.

I agree, it does not meet the definition given in the article.

[edit] Catherine of Aragon

Is Catherine of Aragon a retronym? I suppose she was called "of Aragon" under certain circumstances to begin with, but the period sources I've seen tend to just call her "Queen Catherine" (even in treatises about the annullment of her marriage to Henry VIII) I assume "of Aragon" started to become a common epithet for her once Henry married Catherine Howard and Catherine Parre. If anyone has a period source, preferably one in Latin, that refers to her witih her epithet, I would like to see it. --Iustinus 19:18, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Classic?

Wouldn't classic rock and classical music be retronys? I doubt Mozart called himself "classical".

That's a minefield. What most people would call "classical" music is actually broken up into a number of periods (Classical, baroque, et cetera). Also I don't think it's necessary to list every freaking retronym on the page. —Casey J. Morris 22:03, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sit-down restaurant

I believe that this item ought to be qualified as US usage. In the UK, "fast-food" outlets are generally referred to as "cafés" despite the best efforts of one major US chain to dignify its establishments, and "take-away" [southern England] or "carry-out" [Scotland and Northern Ireland] facilities are generally referred to as "shops". Mark O'Sullivan 11:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not in the parts of the UK I've experienced - "fast food restaurant" and "café" tend to refer to different things, though maybe there is some overlap. And "fast food outlet" also seems to be a quite common term, which I suppose could refer to fast food restaurants and takeaways alike. and for the record, here are some Google statistics:

• "McDonald's restaurant" 111,000 (UK 4,640)
• "McDonald's outlet" 3,510 (UK 121)
• "McDonald's café" 139 (UK 6)
• "fast food restaurant" 558,000 (UK 22,300)
• "fast food outlet" 42,800 (UK 10,300)
• "fast food café" 933 (UK 390)

Some of these ratios surprise me a bit, but still imply that "restaurant" is the usual British and worldwide term. -- Smjg 10:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] George H.W. Bush

Since today the name "George Bush" is more commonly used to mean the son rather than the father, could the adding of the "H.W." or saying "George Bush Senior" be considered a retronym? I know someone mentioned that "Senior" is retronymic, but does the same apply to the later-added middle intials?

It's not like he went out and had his name changed when his son was elected President; those were always his initials. —Casey J. Morris 22:04, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American Football

Would this be an example of a retronym? As "soccer" becomes more popular and Americans watch European "football", the term "American Football" seems to be more appropriate. I heard the term quite often while living in Europe and even the Americans started using it.

I'm afraid plausibility just in itself doesn't really help. Yes, you are right, "soccer" is becoming more popular in the U.S., and both "soccer" and "football" in the UK mean the same thing, that it might indeed follow to call the American game of soccer "American football", but that is not enough. The actual and still popular game of American Football as it is played resembles after all more the English game "Rugby" and has indeed a similar shape ball. It would be very confusing 'retronymically' to call soccer as played in the U. S. "American Football" while the original game is still being played and loved under American rules. Dieter Simon 22:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The idea that "American Football" is a retonym can only be justified from the US perspective because everywhere else in the world, it has always been called this. The true retronym is in fact "soccer" which comes from a truncation of "Association". The original game of football was the soccer version. When a new game, rugby, was derived, socccer became known officially as Association Football to distinquish it from Rugby Football (from which American Football is descended). The interesting thing is that with Rugby Football, there was a further split into Rugby Union and Rugby League so in fact the term Rugby Union Football became a retronym in itself. --GringoInChile 10:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, all these codes (and others such as Aussie rules) were for a great time called merely 'football'. Only when they had diverged very significantly, perhaps the 1880s, did the separate names become used (albeit only to describe the codes not native to one's own area). And the game Rugby, etc., descended from was not the same game as soccer; it was something of a nebulous, regionalized, ad hoc game called simply 'football'. Each club had its own rules preferences, and had to agree with each opponent whether to allow the use of hands, the level of physical contact, the dynamics and values of scoring goals, etc. For further evidence, the game in the United States was never called Rugby, even when (pre-1906) it was virtually identical to it. (At the same time, for some odd reason, Canada did call its game Rugby, even long after it had diverged significantly along with the American game) This whole thing reminds me of 12th century Europe, where there were two 'Roman Empires', one in Germany, and one at Constantinople, and neither included Rome itself. Xyzzyva 03:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is hard cider not a retronym?

Hi, Flapdragon, please explain why for example, "hard cider" isn't a retronym. Don't just remove it, if you have a good reason why you have deleted it, you should explain. It's not at all clear why you have deleted it. Dieter Simon 22:53, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, on further reflection I withdraw my objection and have reinstated "hard cider". I still think it's a weak example, but I was wrong to delete it. However I do think there are way too many examples shown; the article is really more a List of retronyms than an explanation of Retronym. Flapdragon 01:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I completely agree with you on that point, Flapdragon. This "list" should be moved or removed. --Avochelm 15:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feudal?

Would Feudal count? Conglacio 04:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Four-player mahjong

Mahjong (among other spellings) is actually a four-player game, but it seems that when people talk of it they often actually mean mahjong solitaire. As such, there ought to be a term that's used to clarify that one is talking of the four-player game. Assuming that it really does predate the solitaire game, then if there's a term in significant use that is understood to mean specifically the four-player game, then it could go on the list. -- Smjg 13:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Film camera

Film camera doesn't belong here. There was more than one type of camera before digital - plate cameras, for a start, did not (and do not) use film.

This page would be better if there were dated sources for the claimed retronyms. --Pfold 07:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The existence previously of other types of camera does not invalidate the retronymy of the term. Film cameras were not generally so called till the advent of digital. The name is used to distinguish what was all-but-universally called a camera from the later-invented digital types.

It does raise an intriguing issue, however, in defining the history of terms. If film cameras were so called to distinguish them from plate cameras before the invention of digital; and if the term subsequently arose independently of this earlier use to distinguish them from digital cameras, then we have the interesting phenomenon of a single term with a single meaning but two uses. Both uses refer to the same object, but there is an older use distinguishing them from an older piece of technology, and a newer one distinguishing them from a more recent invention. It is the newer use that constitutes the retronym.—Copey 2 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pocket watch

Deleted. The term pocket watch existed 2 centuries before wrist watch. Don't people check these things in a dictionary before posting them here? --Pfold 08:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Finfish

This a retronym? When did shellfish first exist? I thought they existed before fish did. Though if so then there can't have been a huge gap - apparently [1] fish were invented 510 mya, 32 my into the Cambrian. -- Smjg 14:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Shellfish are certainly not a late invention from which a previously universal type now has to be distinguished. The term fish by itself still doesn't include shellfish.—Copey 2 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting of article

Was there really any point in splitting this article into Retronym, consisting of 3 short paragraphs and List of retronyms, with the bulk of the original? In the meantime, I will paste this talk page with the List article.—Copey 2 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First Battle of Bull Run

Please please tell me this is a reference to the "Encyclopedia Brown" story where Bugs Meany tries to pass off a civil war sword that has the retronym etched into the side? Man I loved those books... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dslawe (talk • contribs) 15:38, 15 November 2006.

So that you shouldn't feel alone, I remember that incident, though I had forgotten the source. —Tamfang 02:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)