Talk:Restoration Movement
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[edit] 1 Flaws
This whole article is seriously flawed. There are factual mistakes. Example: 20 sects in the Church of Christ from 1920-1960? if a position was held by only one or two congregations, that doesn't constitute a sect. There is a major problem of focus. 80% of an article on this should be history before 1900. The ICOC was a schism out of the Restoration Movement, and it would be just as extraneous to include many details about the ICOC as Mormonism since Sidney Rigdon was once part of the Movement. Whoever is responsible for the bulk of the article was not a student of the breadth of scholarship on the subject and probably only read one article. Focusing on the splits as the bulk of the article creates a serious NPOV issue. Carltonh 01:23, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
[edit] 2 latter part of it is applicable only to Churches of Christ
This page contains lots of valuable information. However, the latter part of it is applicable only to Churches of Christ. Should much of that information be moved to that page? Or is it properly located here, since they are the main one of the groups still pretty much sticking to the theme of "Restoring New Testament Christianity in the Twenty-first Century."
It would take a pretty good editing job to merge the "Church of Christ" article with this one; at least I feel that it would be beyond my skill set. Also, I would suggest that many of the members of the Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ (instrumental) still voice this interest fairly frequently. The links are important; the last I saw, the articles on the other groups were far less developed than the one on Churches of Christ. Rlquall, 2 Jun 04; 22:20
[edit] Two Church of Christ articles
The Church of Christ article linked from this article and the group mentioned here Church of Christ, but not linked, are one in the same althogh the one not linked is slightly more critical and more developed. The ICOC are specifically mentioned in both articles. The two articles on the Church of Christ need to be merged proabably. The linked article is much less critical.
The Church of Christ in of itslef is an odd church with many variances in teachings and customs, even though they claim not to have any customs or a creed. In some of the churches they do still teach that other denominations are damned, particularly catholics and that the founder of the catholic church is the Beast (Satan). I personally attanded such a class and witnessed this first hand, although they of course have nothing in writting of such. Also many of the churches do indeed delienate the age of 12 as the age of adulthood and the period in which women should not teach young men. This varies between church to church. Some of them don't allow the physical church building to be used for non-service activities such as weddings while others allow it as long as the same rules are applied as the services (No Instrumental Music, no Dance, No Booze), while others yet still allow weddings with instrumental music, dance, and drink. Some churches of christ are very inclusive and fellowship with any protestant church where as others will only fellowship with other churches of christ but there is a minority which won't even fellowship with other churches of christ. It goes on and on.
The schisims of the Church of Christ and Splits from the Disciples of Christ and Church of Christ, the splits and re-unifications of the United Church of Christ, is important in understanding the movement and the various schisims of the Church of Christ into the developement of the ICOC. The ICOC, which is generally considered a cult by the mainline churches and by several local authorities and ex-members (In paticular Jerry Brown of MO- is very very critical of the ICOC).
Probably add history from the Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ (instrumental)- which is already in there. It should be noted that the Independent Churches of Christ split from the Disciples of Christ much later than the Church of Christ did. They both use the term Church of Christ though.
The mainline churches of christ is sort of miss-linked also. The mainline churches of christ is a newer term that started to come into use within the last 10 or 15 years to identify themselves from the ICOC/Crossroad churches. The crossroad movement is still alive in the Church of Christ, although many church of christ don't allow crossroad teachings into them, some do welcome it. The crossroad movement is more or less the combining of the Church of Christ Ideology with Asembly of God Ideology. The Boston movement/ICOC is different yet as it takes it further. The ICOC had to change stop using the name Church of Christ as they were sued by the Church of Christ (Hence why they changed names)
[edit] 3 should talk about Barton and Stone, and what they taught and did
I think most of the last part of this article, after the point where the Disciples and the Church of Christ have split, should be moved to the Church of Christ article. This article should talk about Barton W. Stone and Alexander Campbell, and what they taught and did. It shouldn't cover any later traditions that have their own Wikipedia articles.
[edit] Article appears unstable - not editing properly
Are there too manny "< - - ...- - >" insertions Paul foord 13:54, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Added Separate Entry for Barton Stone
I have added a link to a separate entry for Barton Stone as per the suggestion in the discussion.
Pspadaro 17:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Link only to ICOC
There probably should only be a reference or link to the ICOC entry. Currently there are three separate accounts of the International Churches of Christ in the Restoration Movement entry, Church of Christ entry and the actual ICOC article. Due to the developing nature of the ICOC, post 2003, it may be prudent to consolidate the information to one article and link to it.
17:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] link to Restorationism
A sentence in the lead reads, "Restorationism sought to renew the whole Christian church ..." From my understanding this sentence is correct as applied to the Restoration Movement. Would it be appropriate in that context to link the word "Restorationism" in this sentence, to the article on Restorationism? It might not be the intention of the sentence to refer to an "attitude" or "tendency", as described in that article (but rather, to use the word synonymously instead of "Restoration movement". What do you think? May I link from there, to Restorationism? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 16:19, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] To our anonymous editor at 206.74.91.199
Please read the NPOV article. Your edit on the one-cup/no-class churches may give valuable perspective with a bit of tweaking. However, the use of the term "mainstream" (or "mainline") is the way it is; its usage refers to the number of people in it rather than any historical positions. Jdb1972 17:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] External Links
I would like to have a link to my website added to the external links section of this article. Please take it under consideration.RestorationUnity.com. Pspadaro 22:36, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
- I'd say go ahead and add it. We've got one like that now, might as well add another. Jdb1972 13:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed Ahnog 22:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Branches of the Restoration Movement
I don't know that I would assert that there are five branches, or streams, of the Restoration Movement. The non-institutional churches of Christ, with all respect to my friend Jdb1972, are really a sub-branch of the church of Christ, not an additional branch. I am not sure if the International Churches of Christ should be listed, either. While they split long ago with mainline churches of Christ, and are their own church, they are in such a state of flux that the ICOC doesn't have a firm identity. It seems that the "original" three would be the the branches, and everything else a "sub-branch"
Also, the Christadelphians, while they have some roots to the Restoration Movement, really don't belong in the branch section of the article. We might wish to consider creating a subsection of the article dedicated to religious groups that were influenced by the Restoration Movement. I can think of several religous groups including the United Church of Christ, the Mormons, and the Church of God that have been affected by the movement but shouldn't be listed as a "branch" of the Restoration Movement.
Finally, I'm not sure why there is a link to Jesse Moran Bader in the branches article.
What do you all think?
- (Use four tildes for name ;) ) I tend to agree with the three-way division for the purposes of this article, with shorter notes on factions within each of those. The five/six branch predates my time here. I tend to see the churches of Christ alone as having a five or six way division on their own, depending on where the ICOC is placed. But, by the same criteria that the ICOC would be considered a separate body (issues of fellowship, organization, and doctrine), you'd have to split out the various other church of Christ factions as well.
- All that's left is someone to write it. Jdb1972 04:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps an outline format with the three streams of the Restoration Movement and their respective flavors outlined below each main heading. The oranization should be based on historical splits not nearness of ideology or doctrine. For example; the ICOC split from the church of Christ but is ideologically and doctrinally distinct. It (the ICOC) should still be considered as an offshoot of the churches of Christ in the context of history. This approach also bypasses the instability issues of certain branches.For those not familiar with the Restoration Movement, it gives a quick visual reference.
-
- I. Churches of Christ
- A. non-institutional
- B. one-cup
- C. ICOC (See Article)
- II. Independent Christian Church / Church of Christ
- III. Disciples of Christ
- I. Churches of Christ
- Pspadaro 11:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- My suggestion would be to order the various factions in chronological order of the division. Thus, non-class/one-cup division, premillenial division, institutional division, ICOC, etc. Jdb1972 21:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
jowston First of all, I appreciate everyone's efforts in making this article better — it is rather disjointed. I am a newcomer to Wikipedia, but not to the RM. I agree with the suggestion to divide the descendants into three major group. When generally speaking of the movement, it is usually split thrice with the sub divisions listed among the major groups. If we characterize the RM family, COC, Independent CC/COC, & DOC as daughters of the RM family. The various non instrumental groups (one cuppers, non institutional, etc.) could be considered as granddaughters. The Disciples Renewal would qualify under this type of division as a subsection of the DOC. Unlike others, the Renewal movement continues to operate in the framework of the DOC trying to change the denomination from within.
I will also have to admit that I am the guilty party for including the Christadelphians as a quasi-member of the RM. This really is a debated matter, but some writers such as Murch place the Christadelphians within the RM. There are some major differences between Thomas' movement of Christadelphians than with the others mentioned above. Some would even categorize the group as cultic.
Of the examples listed above to be grouped alongside the Christadelphians as connected to the RM, none of the others have the clear cut descent from the RM as do the Christadelphians. Dr. John Thomas is the only example of a movement's primary proponant who exited from the RM tradition and started his own denomination. Although a rift between Thomas and Campbell had been brewing for some time over doctrinal and control issues, Thomas left the Disciples in 1844. I used the term quasi in my description as it is a tenuous argument at best to include this group as part of the RM. It certainly is not mainstream and may best described as a disinherited daughter of the RM.
The UCC, covered under the Christian Connection section, has some of the same roots as the RM, but did not come out of the RM per se. O'Kelley, Smith, Jones, and Purviance (also Stone to a point) were major influences on the Christian Connection; the Campbells, Stone, Scott, some of the O'Kelley followers the major influences of the RM. While the RM sometimes claims Smith and Jones, these two men and their churches had the least impact upon the RM and more influence upon unitarian beliefs in the northeast. The UCC could not be considered a daughter movement of the RM but rather a cousin sharing much of the same genealogy.
The Mormons, while influenced by former RM preacher Sidney Rigdon who joined with Joseph Smith, could not be considered as a legitimate RM descendant. My point is that, while Rigdon's influences continue to the present day, he was not the founder of the LDS Church and was later out of fellowship of the majority of the Mormons. Perhaps we might best characterize the Mormons as a stepdaughter's second cousin once removed by marriage. Close enough to see a connection, but not close enough to be put on the family tree. To a lesser extent William Miller and the Advent Christian Church experienced a similar RM influence.
As far as the Church of God, I am assuming that this is the Church of God of Anderson, Indiana. It is my understanding that this group was one of the churches that was a part of the holiness movement that descended from Methodism. The holiness movement also produced the Free Methodists, Nazarenes, Weslyan Churches, Salvation Army, and the Christian and Missionary Alliance. It also laid the groundwork for the rise of Pentecostalism out of the holiness movement. The only connection I know to the COG is that a level of fellowship existed (exists) between some Independent Christian Churches and some Churches of God (Anderson, IN); this started during the late 1980s. To my knowledge, this fellowship affected only a minimum of churches on both sides; The COG may be described as one of the RM's granddaughter's best friends -- but no kinship.
In regards to influences on the RM, we may want to consider the Haldanes, Glassites, and Scotch-Baptists. A number of writers have addressed the influence these groups had upon Alexander Campbell and Walter Scott.
