Talk:Rescue squad

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This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here.

Whoever put the fire/rescue system slant on a Rescue Squad is wrong. Look up any "Rescue Squad" in Google and you will see Rescue Squads are actually EMS based and NOT fire based. You typed:

"In the fire/rescue system, a Rescue Squad is a specialized piece of emergency apparatus, like an Engine (also commonly called a "wagon" or "pumper") and a Truck (also called a "ladder truck" or "tower"). Staffed by career or volunteer Firefighter/EMTs, rescue squads contain equpiment needed for a wide variety of rescue incidents, but their primary purposes are 1) search and rescue of trapped occupants in burning structures, and 2) stablization of vehicles and extrication of trapped patients after motor vehicle collisions. "

Stop including it. You know Rescue Squads are 90% EMS based with no affiliation to a fire department. This is just another way Fire Departments are trying to steal the attention. You are dead wrong. 90% of all true Rescue Squads are actually First Aid Squads. Keep your fire slant out of this. It's like me going to the fire department article and saying that it is run by an EMS squad. The term Rescue Squad especially in the northeast is used synonomously for First Aid Squads and EMS units. You know that....so cut the slant for fire departments.

Further...how can a SQUAD be a piece of equipment?

As just some examples. See http://www.rescuesquad.net/ and http://www.rescue14.com/ http://www.tuckahoerescuesquad.org/ http://www.ebrs.org/ http://www.rescue5.com/ http://www.colchesterrescue.org/ http://www.kvers.net/ http://www.fredrescue.org/ http://www.berkcorescue.org/

So cut out the fire slant. You are false. Rescue Squads are EMS based. Be factual or you'll have to be blocked.

allright, time out. I didn't write this article, but time to vouch for it. This miscommunication is known as an equivocation, and the first step to understanding it is accepting that google does not define reality. a rescue squad can refer to a type of department, or it can refer to a piece of apparatus.

As a piece of apparatus, a rescue squad can be designated as either a light, medium, or heavy rescue squad. The general designation "rescue squad" usually refers to medium or heavy, depending on the jurisdiction. It is basically a toolbox on wheels, so the firefighter/rescuers that man it need to be specially trained. The primary function of rescue squads is SAR at fires, and specialty rescues such as Auto Extrication, Technical or Rope Rescue, or Collapse Rescue.

As a type of department, a rescue squad differs from a fire department in that it houses primarily EMS units (BLS and ALS) and support vehicles. If it houses fire apparatus, chances are it will house a specialty service like a heavy rescue squad. The latter definition (departmental) is based on experience within my county.

some examples of rescue squads in Montgomery county, Maryland:

  • [www.bccrs.org/ Rescue 1], housing rescue squads 18 and 19,
  • [www.wvrs.org/ Rescue 2], housing rescue squads 28 and 29

Bottom line: this article is ambiguous. I propose we split the article into an article referring to Rescue Squad departments, and an article referring to Rescue Squad Units. Shaggorama 12:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

You are still wrong. In NJ, VA, NY, PA, and scores more states, Rescue Squads are ambulance based EMS units which historically provided rescue operations. To this day...no one in NJ equates a Rescue Squad with Fire. I think where you COULD make a distinction is THIS: A Rescue *DEPARTMENT* could be a subdivision of a Fire or EMS unit itself...but when you have the word SQUAD...it is synonymous with FIRST AID SQUADS. As long as the word Squad exists as the dictionary heading....90% OF ALL rescue SQUADS are EMS based...so your two examples of the 10% or less MINORITY of your units in Maryland should not impact the true essence of the majority of RESCUE SQUADS that are EMS based. Rescue Squads from NJ to California are still primarily EMS based First Aid SQUADS. So I am not for splitting...but rather... if you really want to stretch the definition....set up a new heading for Fire Based ones and title it Rescue Department. There is a huge and distinct difference between the two. In addition, your two website examples are EMS units with AMBULANCES and resuce vehicles. They look almost identical to the point I was making that Rescue Squads are not fire department based. Did you even look at your links?

excuse me, but i'm a volunteer at rescue 2, and rescue 1 is arival, so I think i'm familiar with the content of those links. And I'm sorry, but I just disagree with you. NY, CA, DC, VA, MD, AL, to name a few use the designation rescue squad to designate both departments and units. You can't say that i'm straight up wrong when I can cite empirical evidence. Just because NJ doesn't have heavy squads doesn't mean it's a matter of definition, and i'm obviously not the only person who feels this way, otherwise it wouldn't have been in the article to begin with. Furthermore, some of these categorical claims you make about other state policies are just wrong: VA and NY both have plenty of squads (NY's Rescue 2 is fairly famous in fact), and LA county (in CA) does have rescue squads and, furthermore, is not responsible for any EMS response to 911 calls (they sublet to AMR). And regardless if a rescue company is "EMS based," that doesn't mean that they can't have a squad, and either way if even "only 10%" of the country recognizes the designation, it still merits mention here.

Here's an experiment for you to try. search 'rescue squad' in google. On the first page, of the 8 hits that are Rescue squad departments (9 with a double), 6 staff fire units they designate as squads (1 calls theirs 'crash trucks,' but regardless the department is 1. NOT all EMS, 2. staffs a unit designed for rescue). A search for "Rescue Company" yields similar results with fewer pertinent front page hits.

Here's another link you might like, the latest installment on a series of articles about desiging rescue squads from firehouse magazine[1].

Get over it. You're wrong, and until separate articles are established, discussion of the rescue squad as a piece of apparatus is absolutely pertinent in this article. And btw, Happy new year! Shaggorama 09:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

PS: where are you getting these statistics from? My BS alarm is sounding loud and clear, and I bet anyone else who might be reading this discussion can hear it too. Please cite a source if you're goign to drop numbers.

I already cited examples of EMS structured "RESCUE SQUADS". How many more links and examples do you need? People in NJ, VA, Kentucky...etc.. specifically refer to Rescue Squads when refering to EMS Squads. I don't understand you. And why are you trying to fight? You must be a firefighter considering your desire to crush anything EMS... I again ask you to suggest what your links were trying to prove considering the two links you provided prove MY point that Rescue Squads are EMS based or associated more with ambulance and EMS work than with firefighting. Here is one of the mission statements of the very "squads" you use to defend that they are fire based. "To provide no-cost, exceptional emergency service ... by recruiting... professionally trained volunteers to staff ambulances, medic units, and heavy rescue squads outfitted with cutting edge technology. " You proved my point. They are RESCUE Squads with AMBULANCES unless your ambulances come equipped with fire ladders and fire hoses. Any further conversation will just end up going in circles... this is beginning to become a waste of time for everyone. Just let it rest already.... Thank you. Oh yeah...i did your infamous google search for rescue squad. Here are your top Rescue Squad listings. 1. Wheaton - EMS. 2. Charlotsville - EMS. 3.Bethesda - EMS. 4. Huntsville - EMS. 5. Mineral Rescue - EMS. 6. Virginia Beach - EMS. 7. East Brunswick - EMS. 8. Tuckahoe - EMS. 9. Scottsville - EMS. And frankly the next "X" amount of pages were all EMS based. So what google did you use? Get this "Shaggorama" off wikipedia....

OMG, dude, for christ's sake...

did you click on the apparatus pages of any of those links? as I stated, the large majority of them man rescue squads. We can't have a meaningful discussion here if you ignore the evidence i'm presenting you with. and yes I am a firefighter. and an EMT. and a Rescue technician. on a rescue squad. at a rescue squad.

for christ's sake, do a LITTLE investigation before you determine the degree of support provided by a link. for christ's sake, the wheaton and BCC links SHOW IMAGES OF THEIR SQUADS ON THE FRONT PAGES of their sites.

at this point, it is not a matter of one of us being right or wrong. It's a matter of me presenting you with evidence and you ignoring it. I'm sorry if you're stubborn, but the fact of the matter is if even ONE Rescue squad unit exists, you are wrong (it's called falsification), and i have presented you with evidence that they are common.

and real quick, let's review the quote from that mission statement: "To provide no-cost, exceptional emergency service ... by recruiting... professionally trained volunteers to staff ambulances, medic units, and heavy rescue squads outfitted with cutting edge technology. " Taa daa. It's called parallel grammatical structure; they are referring to a piece of apparatus. I ASSURE you, if you investigate the site that was the source of the mission statement, you will find a picture of a big-ass truck.Shaggorama 06:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Again - reread: "Oh yeah...i did your infamous google search for rescue squad. Here are (the) top Rescue Squad listings. 1. Wheaton - EMS. 2. Charlotsville - EMS. 3.Bethesda - EMS. 4. Huntsville - EMS. 5. Mineral Rescue - EMS. 6. Virginia Beach - EMS. 7. East Brunswick - EMS. 8. Tuckahoe - EMS. 9. Scottsville - EMS. And frankly the next "X" amount of pages were all EMS based. So what google did you use?" Rescue Squads are primarily EMS based rather than Fire. End of story.

I can only argue with you so much. I am a member of wheaton. I trained with BCC. And furthermore, I've seen the websites. I'm tired of arguing a moot point with you if you won't take the time to actually see what the squads are about. "EMS based" is a completely arbitrary term you can use to discredit any fire role those squads may have; a straw man point of argument. Instead of implementing that argument, you instead discount these squads fire/rescue roles entirely, rahter presenting them as all EMS squads like your NJ system.

I don't need to convince you. The evidence is all there, whether you care to actually dig into it. I mentioned you to my squad and they laughed you off. I'll be writing up a major edit in my spare time. Come back and bother me on my talk page when it's up, because this is going discussion is going nowhere here (I'd like to point out that I put in a request for a third party opinoin, but no one seems to care). Shaggorama 06:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] 3rd opinion

Saw this on the 3rd opinion. I'd like to point out that both Palm Beach County Fire Rescue and Palm Beach Gardens Fire Dept. have a "rescue squad". They are fire/rescue....not solely EMS. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 07:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

It is apparent that your areas might be different. Obviously, there are wide discrepancies here and that you will always believe that you are right. What is being lost is that a Rescue Squad TRADITIONALLY is and was an ambulance based operation. In many parts of the country - First Aid/Rescue Squads are NOT associated with Fire Departments. Maybe we can break this down by state. In NY,PA,NJ,CT,MD,VA, and many other states - Rescue Squads are ambulance based operations independent from fire departments. I do not understand your persistance on fighting this. Maybe YOU can clarify that there are deviations from the norm, like your "Wheaton Rescue Squad" or the other one in Palm Beach - but they are not the norm. How many FIRE TRUCKS does your Wheaton Squad OWN and OPERATE on a daily basis to put out vehicle, structure, dumpster, or other types of FIRES? Pumpers, foam trucks, hook and ladders, aerials, brush trucks....etc. Unless your webpage forgot to include that, you have extrication units, ambulances, first responder cars, and MEDIC rigs. I did not see one FIRE unit.

[edit] Symantics?

So, we're playing symantics. A rescue squad is a rescue department, made up of EMTs (perhaps cross-trained as firefighters), and scores of other personnel. A rescue squad cannot be part of a fire department. They're two separate departments. I am a volunteer firefighter/EMT at a Fire-Rescue Department. Our EMS and Fire services are the same department. I am in Virginia. However, in Loudoun County this is how things were up until March 2006:

  • Rescue: Designation for an Ambulance with a driver, EMT-B or higher, and a Shock trauma tech
  • Squad: A heavy rescue unit, only rescue departments can have them

As of now:

  • Rescue: A heavy rescue unit that fire departments have
  • Squad: Remains the same
  • Trauma: new designation for an Ambulance with a driver, EMT-B or higher, and a Shock Trauma tech

However, in the county next ot us, Fairfax, all the fire departments and rescue squads are combined into fire-rescue departments. Their heavy rescue units are called "Rescue Squads", even by our county during mutual aid operations. This can vary by county or state. So it's all subjective.

FOR THE ARTICLE: Shaggorama, chill out, man. I totally get what you're saying, but I don't see what dab is proposed. So I'm going to propose this.

Rescue squad directs here. For other uses of the term rescue squad, see Rescue Squad (disambiguation) then on that page, we link to

  • Rescue Squad: a emergency service department yadda yadda yadda Emergency Medical and First Aid service
  • Heavy Rescue Vehicle|Rescue Squad: an emergency vehicle etc.
  • And whatever else: et cetera

That's my idea, but let's just calm down, please? Also, Shaggorama, where do you volunteer?

--MPD01605 02:13, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if i got a little riled up. it's frustrating being in an argument where both sides are repeatedly presenting the same evidence, which both sides consider equally convincing. I volunteer at the Wheaton Volunteer Rescue Squad in montgomery county. I actually did a training burn in loudon a few years back when I was in essentials. In montgomery county, fire and rescue are combined to the extent that the proper designation for firefighters is "Firefighter/rescuer." I agree that this type of designation is contingent upon regional use, but it is this very contingency that spurred the above disagreement (i was fighting the grandiose claim that a rescue squad is necessarily or even primarily all EMS). I think you're solution is a good middle ground. Thank you for contributing to this discussion. Shaggorama 07:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

--

What could work and what I mentioned before is that we might break it up by region. In NY, NJ, PA and other northeast states, a Rescue Squad designates an EMS organization. It is true that recently SOME Fire Departments have swallowed up "Rescue Squads" and taken over their EMS and rescue functions. In NY State, some EMS "Rescue Squads" are now housed in Fire Department buildings. Federal Fire Grants are NOW available for "non-affiliated EMS" organizations, which include RESCUE SQUADS. In NJ specifically, the term First Aid Squad and EMS are used synonymously with Rescue Squad with absolutely no fire association whatsoever. Some people ask us "First Aiders": "What Rescue Squad are you" when we pick them up. And being that one of the first FIRST AID SQUADS in history since 1927, the Belmar NJ First Aid Squad set the precendent that most NJ RESCUE SQUADS are based upon. Look at independent EMS Squads in NJ. I would estimate that over 40% of the names used are "Rescue Squads", in there with First Aid, Amublance Corps, and Emergency Squads. Again, maybe it is a regional thing. But a Rescue Squad in the north east is an EMS unit, even if it is a sub-unit of a fire-department. A rescue squad is an independent EMS organization or an EMS branch as a sub-unit to a fire dept. It is rare to find a standalone "Rescue Squad" that has fire trucks, pumpers, brush trucks and other fire fighting apparatus. A standalone "Rescue Squad" is EMS based. Period. If you want to have a "Rescue Squad - FIRE sub-unit", that could work. But as long as a Rescue Squad is standalone, it is almost always EMS based. And every example/squad used so far do not have FIRE ENGINES. They could be staffed by firefighters but they are NOT running FIRE TRUCKS. As another side note, how can a "SQUAD" be a piece of equipment????? What is the definition of squad in a dictionary? "A small group of people organized in a common endeavor or activity." Also - in NJ - a Squad is NOT *only* a heavy rescue unit. It is also an EMS unit that usually has heavy rescue capabilities. Template:Unsigned comment

It is safe to say that the article will remain titled Rescue squad. I believe that is the most common term. I don't want to argue a common term right now though. Are there redirects for all the other potential names, such as First Aid Squad and Ambulance Corps? Those should be made. Terminology is different everywhere. We don't use the term "pumper" when really designating a piece of equipment. We have Engine 6, Wagon 6, Reserve Engine 6, etc. Whereas I'm sure somewhere uses the term "Pumper 12" or something. Just like what's the difference between a truck and a tower for me? They both have ladders, but a tower has a bucket at the end. The point is: terminology is different. Squads, Rescue Squads, Heavy Rescue Units, Extracation Vehicles, Rescues: all synonymous. Police cars are sometimes Squad Cars, but aren't at all related to Rescue Squads or heavy rescue units. It's all subjective. But read my earlier comment, and I think that's the best thing so far. I appreciate the input, but really defining and sub-defining the terms doesn't do much, because the terms differ so much by region.
Sterling Rescue's Squad 15
Enlarge
Sterling Rescue's Squad 15
It would be worth mentioning though, that some EMS services are provided by the fire department, or that some rescue squads (ambulance services) are divisions of fire departments. But then if people want to see some of that, they can go to the Fire Department page. But for this page, I say it is for the organization of people, volunteer or career, who run units such as Ambulances on EMS calls (or something like that). Of course, as things always vary, it is important to add that sometimes, rescue squads have Heavy Rescue Units. I have some pictures for justification here, here, and here. It might be wise for me to note that in that last one, the Squad is on the right and the Engine's on the left (the engine was across town and the squad got out first, it actually wouldn't have been needed if the engine had been there). They are two different departments, but housed in the same station (right behind the accident scene).
I would also like to mention that some ambulance services weren't "swallowed up" by fire departments. My fire department, Ashburn Fire-Rescue (6) relied on Sterling Volunteer Rescue Squad (15) for years, but as call volume grew, they decided to purchase an ambulance and being offering their own services. Not really too pertinant, but I figured I'd share that piece of history. Wow that was way more than I intended to write. Hope this all made sense. --MPD01605 16:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frustration

Sorry MPD01605, but I need to deviate from your comments for jsut a second (although I do fine them productive and moving this discussion in the right direction) back to my anonymous source of angst.

  1. First and foremost, it's high time you became a registered user. I don't know what your motivations are/have been for putting it off, but a) it will do us (me) a big favor to know i'm arguing with the same person, and b) I was reviewing some of your earlier comments, one of which stated: "Be factual or you'll have to be blocked." Well, when it comes down to it, the fact that your unregistered provides you with no legitimacy, and actually gives completely acceptable grounds to ignore any comments you make with respect to the direction of this encyclopedia. Considering the amount of time I've invested in arguing with you, i don't plan on pulling rank, but please jsut register already.
  1. Stop citing New Jersey. I have given you a diverse range of evidence.
    1. I've offered you google searches that display the prominence of Rescue squads that operate both, yes both, technical rescue units and ambulances.
    2. EMS certification is strictly under the jurisdiction of the DOT. The DOT does not regulate certification for any form of technical rescue. In fact, the NJ position description for "RESCUE SQUAD OFFICER" states under the knowledge prerequisites (among others): certified as a Fire Officer 1 or equivalent, and must meet standards outlined in NFPA 1670 (applies to organizations and individuals responsible for technical search and rescue incidents). Even within new jersey, "Rescue squad officers" are under the juridicstion of the NFPA [2].
  1. Firehouse magazine is responsible for a national run survey of unit responses, and has an entire category designated to "heavy rescues," which operate under a myriad of callsigns. The abbreviations RS and SQ appear often, so yes, a squad can designate a piece of apparatus and not just refer to a group of people [3]. Moreover, dictionary definitions are fairly inapplicable in the context of the fire service. If you lookup paramedic in almost any dictionary, the definition will often include EMT-Bs, and even first-responders.

I'm sorry, I had to vent. I feel that you repeatedly present the same argumetns over and over, and it is not moving this debate forward. MPD01605, I don't want you to be discouraged by this post, although it is a step back. We're making progress.

ENDORSEMENT: redirect to dismabiguation page. Page will offer links to

  • Rescue squad (vehicle) --> existing Heavy rescue page
  • Rescue squad (department), which can refer to a First aid squad or technical Rescue squad. -->the latter page should be titled "Rescue squad (techincal)"; I have never heard of a "technical rescue squad" department designation, but for the purpose of differentiation in the disambig page the qualifier may be necessary.

I suggest that the anonymous editor direct their energy to writing a piece for the First aid squad page since this seems to be their area of expertise and they are certainly more knowledgeable than me. This is an open encyclopedia, so they are still free to edit the the other departmental page, although they seem to be fairly ignorant with respect to this alternate topic. Shaggorama 07:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

--

In many many areas in the Country: Rescue Squad=First Aid Squad. A Rescue Squad IS an EMS organization in many areas. What is the problem? It is NOW apparent that a Rescue Squad might represent something different in your area. But to discount all the Northeast Rescue Squads that are non-affiliated EMS organizations is wrong. Rescue Squads even in NY State, PA, CT, and other places are EMS organizations. I still don't understand what you are trying to change here. The original arguement was whether a rescue Squad were primarily fire department or EMS based. The current article is fine as is. It is you Shaggy who is talking in circles. And the links *I* provided as examples, and the google searches *I* did PROVE that Rescue Squads are EMS based, whether I am anonymous or sign my name and social security number, the evidence is in the field and on the web. You're one of those who needs the last word huh? Listen - here's a random like to an INDIANA Rescue Squad. Purely EMS. http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~thesquad/index.htm So what the heck is your problem? Whether I sign my name or not - the facts stand for themselves. Do a search on the net buddy.... Rescue Squads are PRIMARILY EMS based organizations that do NOT fight fires. From NJ to California. I'll even give you a costa mesa california fire department that has EMS as part of it. And you'll notice the word BLS and that it has no ladder or water. And this is STRETCHING in YOUR favor. Even to show i'm unbiased. "RESCUE SQUAD - There is 1 Rescue Squad based in the center of the City. The Squad is a BLS Unit like the quints, and it is similarly staffed by a Captain/EMT, an Engineer/ EMT, and a Firefighter/EMT. It differs from the quints in that it has no ladder or water, it has a larger array of tools, and it is the Department's primary resource for heavy rescue operations and other unique rescue situations. " Rescue Squads from Wisconsin to Maryland to Virginia to Alaska to Vermont, to NY, to Indiana, to NJ.... All EMS. Give up already...it's a waste of time.

--

Nice link. It sure was "random" as you said given, it doesn't appear on the first 15 pages of a goodle search. Moreover, It's hardly a legitimate EMS organization to begin with. The scope of their response area is limited to the Purdue University athletics stadium. Great link.
Also, I'm not entirely sure you understand what EMS or firefighting even means. EMS = emergency medical response. Note: medical. Techincal rescue of any sort is not the responsibilty of healthcare providers. Moreover, firefighting is not exclusivce to water carrying units. The only water on our squads is a water-can extinguisher, and we only have 1 1 1/4" hose in the hwole station. The role of a rescue squad at a fire is 1) search and rescue 2) utility management 3) forcible entry, and 4) assisting with truck operations (ladders and ventilation). None of these tasks diminishes it's position as a fire unit.
What can I say man. At this point, I'm not even "arguing" with you per se; none of the points you've directed at me have been well founded, whereas mine have. You consistently make grandiose unsupportable claims and are unwilling to move towards compromise or resolution that does not involve unilateral acceptance of your view. I don't need to prove my self to the encyclopedia. I'm just trying to educate you personally at this point.Shaggorama 05:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not even sure what's being argued anymore. I'm going to have to stop all conversation, and ask what needs to be done, and what people can agree on. If you want to argue the definition of a term, go to Wiktionary and argue it there. If we can't stay on topic and come to a resolution soon, I'll go to other forms of dispute resolution. But in order to do that, I'd need to know what we're trying to do. That said...the roles of rescue squads on fires vary by fire district and municipality. Again, I will use examples from Loudoun and Fairfax.
Loudoun County does not dispatch a Squad (i.e. Heavy Rescue Vehicle/Technical Rescue Vehicle) to a structure/house fire. Neither Squad 15, Squad 13, Squad 3, nor HazMat 19 (which is equipped as a heavy rescue vehicle because it's the only squad in that area) are dispatched to structure fires. Don't argue with me on what they're called, or what a HazMat does. You can't argue a fact, and that's what our county does. HOWEVER, Fairfax County does dispatch Squads to structure/house fires, and since Loudoun does have a mutual aid agreement with Fairfax County, there have been times when Rescue Squad 439 or Rescue Squad 404 have been dispatched to a structure fire in eastern Loudoun. In Loudoun, two trucks (or Towers) are dispatched. In the eastern end of the county, Tower 11 (soon Tower 6, too), and either Truck 338 (from Dulles Airport), Truck 436, or Rescue Squad 439 or 404 are dispatched to a structure/house fire because Fairfax allows their squads to be dispatched to a fire, whereas Loudoun does not. Now if a squad marks up to a fire call, they won't be turned away. But yes, I agree with you Shaggorama. I have seen papers describing the roles for each piece of apparatus on different types of fires, and the Truck and Squad duties are synonymous, except when it involves a ladder, then it's not the same for a Squad, obviously. I know those duties are the same for much of the Northern Virginia region, and may even be the same in parts of Maryland. I'll check that out when I get to the Station next.
Also, at Sterling Fire Company 11/Sterling Rescue Squad 15, there is both a tower and a squad (both companies are housed in the same building, yet are separate from each other): Tower 11 and Squad 15. Unless the Rescue company has staffed the Squad, if a call for the squad ever goes out, then the Tower crew staffs the Squad and the Tower is put out of service. This is in the County system, and it works. And usually, if the tower crew goes out on the squad, there are some fire volunteers who come up and staff the Tower. It's a good system. I'm not disproving anything, because I'm sure things are different everywhere, but this is an example. I like giving examples and I could go on, even though it's not very productive to the cause.
Nobody can argue with any of this. These are facts, and it's what our counties do. They all differ. But we need to find a solution, and we really need to know what we're arguing. If you have something to add into the article, or want to edit it: be bold and add it. Don't radically edit the information that's there, because it very well could be true, and seeing how all these views vary, it probably is true. But if you think something is wrong, edit it.
Oh yes, and please sign your comments.
--MPD01605 06:25, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

--

Shaggorific is not so terrific. Purdue University Rescue Squad has AMBULANCES and that is the point. The original arguement is because someone CHANGED and OVERWROTE the original Rescue Squad article and changed it to have a FIRE DEPARTMENT only based slant, which is false. It was finally changed back to the article you now see with reference to Fire Departments and race track crews....which is FINE. Rescue Squads historically, from as early as the 1920's were AMBULANCE based operations with crash trucks (now called extrication rescue trucks) and were staffed NOT by firefighters but by ambulance attendants. Some Rescue Squads over the years have changed to incorporate or be completely fire departments, but a large bulk across the country are STILL ambulance/EMT/EMS directed and based, and as long as there is a PATIENT involved, must involve an EMT. The point is this: shaggyomeister has tried to argue the point that Rescue Squads are Firefighter based and I argue that it is EMT based. In many parts of the country, the two are SEPARATE and a firefighter is not an EMT and vice versa, and therefore, MOST Rescue Squads across the country are primarily run by EMTs and NOT firefighters. THATs the arguement. The current article INCLUDES fire department lingo for him and shaggaocrapper still just wants to argue. Look at the examples on the net as listed in the article. They are a BRIEF example of standalone RESCUE SQUADS not affiliated with Fire departments. Shagger just has to fight for some reason.... Then shagger and others went into techical Rescue Squads and diversified into Fire/Rescue Departments .... going so far from the original articles purpose of stating that Rescue Squads were and still are primarily EMT run organizations. There are tons of links that RESCUE SQUADS are non-affiliated EMT run organizations that own ambulances and crash trucks as compared to fire engines and fire ladders. The current article is fine...shaggo just seems to want to argue with me nonstop about something unrelated to the article.... Futhermore, the article is talking about "Rescue Squads" with that in their incorporation name such as "East Brunswick Rescue Squad" for an East Brunswick NJ rescue and ambulance company. So... If NYC had a "rescue squad", it would be incorporated as "NYC Rescue Squad", not Rescue Squad #4 as part of the "fire department of NY". Does THAT CLARIFY?? What is the INCORPORATION name of the "rescue squad"? If it is not " X Rescue Squad", then we are talking two different things. In which case a Rescue Squad can be a smaller entity as part of a larger entity.... I was always referring to the incorporated name of " X Rescue Squad", and not some sub-name to a larger entity. This is crazy. The current article is fine...leave the fire/ems thing alone already....

[edit] DAB Consensus

First, sign your comments.

Ok, do we want a dab page for different meanings of the term rescue squad?

Something like:

Rescue squad redirects here. For other uses of the term rescue squad, see Rescue Squad (disambiguation)

then on that page, we link to

  • Rescue Squad: a emergency service department yadda yadda yadda Emergency Medical and First Aid service
  • Heavy Rescue Vehicle|Rescue Squad: an emergency vehicle etc.
  • And whatever else: et cetera

-MPD01605 23:29, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


  • Agree. It makes sense, so that not everyone is scrambling to figure out what the heck they're looking for. --MPD01605 23:29, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Agree. I suggest 2 corporation pages, 1 of which will satisfy anon's all EMS definition and history, one which satisfies technical/EMS departments, and a page directing to vehicle article Heavy rescue.Shaggorama 08:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


In my part of Tennessee rescue squads are usually affiliated with fire departments or are independent. The rescue squad in my county is actually falls under the some of the volunteer fire departments. The fire trucks, engines and tankers, actually have both the fire department name and the rescue squad name on them in some of the departments. A lot of smaller counties around here have fire/rescue departments, but I know of no EMS/Rescue departments in my area. Are there EMS base rescue squads? Yes, but not in my area. Just because fire based rescue squads are not in your area does not mean that they do not exist.--Click23 13:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


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Ok...finally we are making progress. The term Rescue Squad started in NJ by first aid ambulance run departments. SO, at a very minimum, it must be stated where the ORIGIN and history of the term came from. It is still fact that only recently have Fire departments have used the word RESCUE in their titles in increasing amounts. Fire was always called Engine Company, Hose, Chemical, Hook and Ladder. And EMS was called First Aid, Emergency, Safety, or Rescue Squad. THAT is history. THAT is fact. In the past 20 yrs or so, we have new terms like Fire Department, Fire/Rescue, EMS, EMS Rescue, Technical rescue, ETC. But that is relatively new for the 100 or more history of things. IN NJ and NY specifically, a Rescue Squad is the EMS branch of either itself as an independent organization or as a sub-company to a fire department, but it stil doesn't change the fact that it stands for the EMS operation. Many rescue squads have been absorbed by fire departments because of sheer manpower or funding problems...but it doesn't change what the term Rescue Squad stands for. Just yesterday, a bystander called my FIRST AID SQUAD a "Rescue Squad" in a opinion section in a newspaper as in NJ, it is commonplace to use Rescue Squad for EMS operations. The common lingo and understanding of people is like that here and in the northeast. What has happened, is that due to funding, many EMS and Rescue functions have been taken over or completely absorbed by fire departments, but you cannot erase history or what historically was the case. Todays "EMS" and "Rescue" was almost always the responsibility of standalone first aid or ambulance run rescue squads as long as a working fire was not involved. I further ask that we discuss the term "Incorporation name". There are many fire departments that use the word rescue on their trucks and in talking and in org charts, but I again ask - what is their incorporation name? Rescue Squads that have that as part of their incorporation name are still primarily EMS/ambulance/EMT based. THAT is the point. Check out the links given as examples. The current article is fine. You can add SUBSECTIONS to it as everyone has suggested, but the MAIN article should be what it is and should be left alone.

That's fine, but, we're not arguing that. Anymore at least. Lord I hope not. We're arguing a DAB for rescue squad. I do say that this article remain "Rescue Squad". But anon user, you could still voice your opinion above so that we can come to consensus. --MPD01605 16:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voila

Rescue squad (disambiguation) --MPD01605 (T / C) 05:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

--

Ok. The current article is fine as is. MPD...what exactly are you asking in order to come to a consensus? I'm up for discussing....but again - the current article is fine as is... What are you suggesting?

[edit] Emotions...

I just read this entire discussion page, and suffice it to say I think it's pretty sad when people let their out of control emotions cloud the facts. The term "Rescue Squad" can and has meant a myriad of things related to both EMS and FD...even PD in some cases. It generally refers to either the actual organization of people who form a group charged with rescue duties, or it can refer to the apparatus itself which is used for this purpose. There is no absolute definition, as is the way with many terms used in emergency services. To argue that the term "Rescue Squad" is unique to EMS and only appropriate for their use is absolutely ludicrous. The comment the highly emotional person wrote "This is just another way Fire Departments are trying to steal the attention" clearly demonstrates a very nonobjective bias for EMS and bitterness towards fire depts on their part. They state that in the Northeast, the term "Rescue Squad" always means an EMS based agency, not FD. Well, I happen to be from the Northeast...Rockland County, NY to be exact, which also borders Bergen County, NJ...and I can tell you that here the term almost 100% of the time refers to an FD based rescue organization or apparatus. In contrast, our neighbor just to the south, Ramsey, NJ, uses the term to refer to their EMS based organization. Same job description, same type of apparatus, different branch of emergency service, same results. Not everyone does it the same all over, nor do they call it the same thing. That's life, deal with it. But don't muck up this article with biased opinions of "we do it this way, and that's the ONLY way", because behavior like that is detrimental to the entire purpose of Wiki.

--Chris 05:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me guess... someone is from the greater New Jersey area and the truth about "rescue" hits a little too close to home...

"Rescue" a la civil defense days is definitely part of the history of some areas of the country. In others, however, it isn't. An encyclopedia article should not present the greater New Jersey history and implementation of "rescue" as the authoritative and definitive source for information.

Has this weirdo ever left New Jersey? Incorporation? Lack of donations? First Aid squads? hahaha wow...


EMS is EMS. Vehicle extrication is vehicle extrication. Fire suppression is fire suppression. Some places have one agency do all (and way more), some have separate agencies for each, and some have combinations of all of the above. Some are paid, some aren't.

Bottom line: The job of "rescue" gets done by trained professionals and even innocent bystanders, regardless of the semantics and rhetoric that is being shared in this article and talk.

FDNY HISTORY - 1915 - Rescue 1 to the rescue Incidents like this - and a subway fire January 8, 1915 that injured hundreds when the tunnel filled with smoke - resulted in the creation of Rescue Company 1 on January 18, 1915. The country's first heavy rescue unit, Rescue 1 was outfitted with the most advanced equipment available, like Draeger Smoke Helmets and tools to release victims trapped beneath heavy debris. The unit was instrumental in controlling such disasters as a 1916 ammonia fire in the cellar of the Park and Tilford Company, a 1917 explosion of hydrogen gas aboard a submarine in the Brooklyn Naval yard that threatened to destroy the entire fleet, and the 1932 explosion in a Ritz Tower Hotel basement paint room that left eight firemen dead and another eight seriously injured.


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The new article is far from what the original intention and idea of a Rescue Squad was with a Fire Slant put in it all over again. Further, examples of "RESCUE SQUADS" were purposely deleted. It is apparent that certain individuals are trying to scrub out what a RESCUE SQUAD is and replace it with a Fire Slant. Why did you delete the examples of RESCUE SQUAD? Search in Google for "Rescue Squad" and tell me what comes up. And, Rescue 1 is PART of The Fire Department of New York. Your Rescue Company is NOT called "NYC Rescue Squad". I am making the point that "Rescue Squad" is used in the OFFICIAL and REGISTERED tradename of an organization, and not just a clasification of such. The name of MANY Ems units is simply "Virgina Beach Rescue Squad", hence the title of this wikipedia article. I would suggest starting a "Rescue Company" page, as you are mixing up what "Rescue Squad" here is meant to describe. There are Fire Departments and Rescue Squads. Fire Depts put out fires and have rescue DIVISIONS, but Rescue Squads are primarily EMS ambulance/rescue operations. The name RESCUE SQUAD is used as the legal trade name on paper and in any lawsuits that might arise. It would be State v. Anytown Rescue Squad. Many fire departments that have rescue divisions as PART of their organization would be sued as: State v. Anytown Fire Department, even if it was the rescue team that screwed up. For a majority of the towns, it would NOT be : State v. the Rescue division of the Anytown Fire Dept. Now do you get the point. ANd yes - there are rare examples of a rescue SQUAD having it's own incorporation name as a sub-division of a Fire Dept - but on a large widescale level across the country, it is not the case. Search again for "Rescue squad" in google. Tell me what comes up. The search doesn't lie. Why are you trying to recreate fact?

You EMS guys are so insecure it's not even funny. 90% of the fire departments in the US do EMS, which means 90% of the fire departments also do RESCUE. I don't care what a Google search comes up with. The only thing Google does is display the results of indexes it does on the Internet, it is hardly a resource to use in proving that a "rescue squad" is an "EMS thing". Google is about as reliable a reference as Wiki is, especially when people like you get ahold of articles like this and force your bias all over it. That guy above was correct, you let your emotions and anti-FD bitterness get in the way of your objectivity. If you want a reliable source for how many fire departments are doing EMS, take a look at Firehouse Magazine's annual run surveys. PS - Stop crying that FD is taking over EMS and Rescue, it's pathetic.

[edit] Summary of Edits to Article

Okay... this article had MAJOR copyvio issues.

I've edited this article thusly:

  • "Leonardtown Volunteer Rescue Squad (MD)" - Example removed. Copyvio: Self-admitted.
  • "Fire Department of New York" Example removed. Copyvio: www.pbs.org/wnet/heroes/print/history.html

I've also removed the MASSIVE external links section because it is entirely too large. I have also left the appropriate nothanks template on the user's talk page.

Signed,

JJJJust 02:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


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My arguement is NOT that Fire Departments in differenent areas do or don't do rescue. What I am arguing is that the words "Rescue Squad" are used in naming organizations, such as "South Orange Rescue Squad" which have ambulances. Unless these ambulances have fire hoses...it is EMS. It is uncommon to hear of a trademarked and incorporated name for a Fire Department such as "South Orange Rescue Squad" that fights fires. You would see South Orange Fire Department. So the arguement that I am making is that the Term "Rescue Squad" represents and is the NAME of many EMS units that are not affiliated with a fire dept. The macro-arguement has nothing to do with whether Fire cuts a car or not. You are all missing the point. How many FIRE departments have an incorporated name with "RESCUE SQUAD" in it? Now compare that to the hundreds of examples that have "RESCUE SQUADS" with ambulances. In the northeast, when you say "i'm part of a rescue squad", it is commonly accepted that you are talking about some sort of EMS operation, based solely on the name of the squad. Check any First Aid or EMS council. Rescue Squads make up these councils. Further, Fire Departments CAN have a rescue squad as as DIVISION of the department, but the very name of the company is "XY Fire Department". Do any of you get the point yet?????? I don't know how many more ways I can tell you....unless you go out and get a business degree to understand corporation/company naming principles.


__

I swore I wasn't going to dive into this discussion because it seems to already be lively enough but I just couldn't resist.

Here's my digestion of all this stuff, adding in my own experience:


"X Rescue Squad Inc.": Probably staffs at least one EMS unit (transport or not). Usually volunteer/part volunteer. "X Fire Department": Probably staffs a truck that either carries water/hose/ladders. Sometimes volunteer/part volunteer.

These are truths that probably hold for any department/organization in the country.

BUT....

"X Rescue Squad Inc": Might staff heavy rescue squad trucks staffed with firefighters that perform essential duties on all fires. "X Fire Department": Might staff a heavy rescue squad truck as part of their fleet of other fire apparatus.


Confusion I think also comes up with the term Fire Department. The department might designate the ENTIRE department in a jurisdiction. Including ALL of the stations. This term is used interchangable though by some people who refer to a specific station as "the fire department". A rescue squad can be used to designate a station as well. The term is also used to designate the specific truck (heavy rescue squad).

In Montgomery County,MD., to avoid confusion the ENTIRE paid/volunteer organization, including every station is under the banner: Montgomery Couny Fire & Rescue Services.


Aglue 19:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

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"Montgomery Couny Fire & Rescue Services". Ok.. But the Name is NOT *Montgomery County Rescue Squad*. THIS is my point. The legal registered incorporated name seems to be "Fire and Rescue Services" and NOT "Rescue Squad", hence the reason for my arguement a long time ago for the title of this article "Rescue Squad". If you want, set up another wikipedia article titled "Fire and Rescue Services".

[edit] Incomprehensible!!

I live in England and this article is poor. I cannot begin to understand what it's saying. I thought an encyclopedia was written for readers worldwide? If most of this article is baffling then something is wrong with it! It needs a rewrite (although I'm not qualified to do it) so that a reader in, say, England, does not have to read too much about the complexities of which Authority gets to do what in US Rescue, but can read more about what Rescue work actually involves - Adrian Pingstone 17:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I have reverted the article back to the version posted in may by MPD. I feel that his version of the article was pretty solid, and has been largely lost due to significant revision by our disagreeable, anonymous editor. I will try to encorporate the few positive edits made since his. Shaggorama 02:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

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