User talk:Relir
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[edit] Thanks
Thanks for correcting the mistake on the Prince page, was just doing it myself though you're quick off the mark! LuciferMorgan 18:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Italian-American
Definitely not, since we don't use the one drop rule. If the "Italian-American" category is to be used on Prince, we need a source that describes him as, indeed, Italian American, which I don't think we have. Mad Jack 04:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What Rule?
It's not about any rule. If you are refering to those insinuated by the Institution of Racial Accounting, they have been wrong for centuries now. They were created, and applied, out of fear, elitism, imperialism, shame and, subsequently, hatred. The fact is, Prince is of Italian descent, his African/sub-Saharan ancestry and racial/cultural identity do not take away from that fact. Neither does it take away form that fact that Maya, Tom Morello of AudioSlave (Who is half Kenyan and half Italian, but aesthetically can pass as Caucasian, and does so performing with a widley known as 'White' band), Alicia Keys, Salli Richardson, Traci Bingham, Rick Fox, etc... are all Americans of recent/distant sub-Saharan African and recent Italian descent.
As a matter of fact Tom Morello looks as full blooded Italian as any one in the generation produced by the Moorish invasion, and as any modern day Southern Italian.
The rules don't even account for the North African/Moorish ancestry that many Italians and Iberian Europeans have inherited. The rules evoke racism and attempt to cover up the facts; they always have.
However in this case the facts are widely known and celebrated. It's not about race, it's about one's own individual heritage - something you cannot erase.
French-Canadian-Italian-American Madonna, Irish-Italian-American Rosie O'Donnell, and Jewish-Italian-American Joy Behar are considered, and can claim, as such and they aren't even full blooded Italians. All 3 are considered Caucasian/White. No matter the racial categories, the ancestry is there. Take a survey of all of those listed under Category:Italian-Americans, with racial categories aside, you'll find that many are not full blooded Italians, especially among those born in the last 2 generations. And even among the first and second waves that immigrated into America, there was already non-Italian (both distant and recent) ancestry among them. Relir 18:25, 14 September 2006 (EST)
- It's not about "full blooded" or not, it's about what the source says. If a source says someone is Italian-American regardless of how much Italian ancestry they have, we can list them as that, if not, we shouldn't, or else our ethnicity categories would outnumber our other categories! As for Rick Fox, "Italian-Americans" is a parent cat of Italian-American actors and Italian-American athletes. If those two sub-categories encompass his professional life, there's zero point in putting him under the general "Italian-Americans" category. Rosie O'Donnell is not Italian at all, just Irish on both sides, and Joy Behar is not Jewish, just 100% Italian, btw (Behar is a husband's name). As for Prince, there isn't even a source cited on his page that says he has any Italian ancestry, much less that declares him an Italian-American (and I seriously doubt any reliable source would call him that, so obviously we can't be the first. As for Madonna, we do have sources that call her an Italian-American (regardless of the fact that her mother isn't), so we can call her that. Hope that helps, Mad Jack 02:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Prince's Italian Ancestry: Noted
"Prince: The Secret Life of America's Sexiest One-Man Band" by, Debby Miller, . Rolling Stone (April 28, 1983): 18-23+.
His father, John Nelson, was a musician himself -- a piano player in a jazz band by night, a worker at Honeywell, the electronics company, by day. Nelson is black and Italian; his ex-wife, says Prince of his mother, "is a mixture of a bunch of things." Onstage, the father was called Prince Rogers, and that is what he named his son, Prince Rogers Nelson.
Which would, subsequently, make him Afro-Italian. Relir 15:08, 16 September 2006 (EST)
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- Excellent, you should add that information about his ancestry to the article and use the citation. However, the source certainly does not say Prince is an Italian-American. You'd be hard-pressed to find any reliable source that says Prince is an Italian-American, and until we do, Wikipedia can't be the first to call him that. Mad Jack 19:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
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- Cool Beans. Relir 15:10, 16 September 2006 (EST)
- No, the List of Italian Americans is uncited at the moment. It needs these citations (well, it has a few, around 10, if you check the bottom, but it needs sources on every name). List of Italian American actors is better cited, for instance. Mad Jack 20:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
- I added him to the list because the cited source [1] called him, rather than one of his ancestors, Italian. Like I said, if we have a source that calls Prince himself, rather than his father, Italian, he should be added. Mad Jack 22:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- Ah, but now you're getting into one drop rulery. Remember, It's a list of Italian Americans, not Americans with (sort of) Italian American fathers. :-) Mad Jack 02:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- I added him to the list because the cited source [1] called him, rather than one of his ancestors, Italian. Like I said, if we have a source that calls Prince himself, rather than his father, Italian, he should be added. Mad Jack 22:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- No, the List of Italian Americans is uncited at the moment. It needs these citations (well, it has a few, around 10, if you check the bottom, but it needs sources on every name). List of Italian American actors is better cited, for instance. Mad Jack 20:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
- Cool Beans. Relir 15:10, 16 September 2006 (EST)
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Actually it's based on what the source says. If the source calls the person themselves "Italian", then for Wikipedia purposes they are Italian. Remember, it's all about specifically what the source says (if that source is reliable, of course) Mad Jack 23:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Flag_bubi.gif
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[edit] African indigenous peoples
Hi there Relir. I see that you recently added a sizeable number of African groups to List of indigenous peoples. However, please note that the term "indigenous peoples" in this list is not synonymous with the everyday usage of words like 'indigenous' or 'native', but instead has the particular meaning and definition in the international/contemporary sense, as set out in the main indigenous peoples article and related others.
It is not therefore intended as a list of all peoples/ethnic group who may be regarded as having a 'native origin' from some particular region (eg Africa), otherwise just about every ethnic group in the world could be listed. Instead, indigenous peoples as used here are a (much-smaller) subset of these, defined by additional criteria which frequently include a degree of political/cultural marginalisation when compared to the "dominant culture(s)", their association with some land or territory, their mode of subsistence (mostly pastoralists and hunter-gatherers), and so on. Granted, these criteria are hard to pin down in a generic sense, but the main identifying point is whether or not the people in question are explicitly identified, or have sought representation as, indigenous peoples in terms recognised by bodies such as the UNPFII, IPACC or African Union (see category:indigenous peoples).
A number of those you had added (eg Amhara, Tswana, Swazi) are generally regarded as dominant cultures within their region and are not held as specific indigenous peoples in this context, although they can of course still be said to be indigenous to the continent. Consequently I've removed several of these, but there are probably others not belonging there- probably only a minority of Africa's peoples are identified as indigenous in this context. Regards, --cjllw | TALK 07:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
