Talk:Reggaeton

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To the person who recently changed this article, see Talk:Music of Panama.

1) The whole part about homophobia is a bald-faced lie.

2) Vico C didn't do the first spanish-language hip-hop record, in any case the first in Puerto Rico. He did the first comercially available one in Puerto Rico in 1988, not 1985, but it is true he recorded underground tapes in 1985 and later on.

What Puerto Ricans bring to reggaeton did bring into the mix was house music (itself a fusion of salsoul and disco) and straigth up hip-hop.

BTW, I am boricua, and I grew up in Old San Juan.

-esekaese

In the spanish version of Wikipedia we accept that Reggaetón is from Puerto Rico and Panama. Moreover, user from Panama comment in the discussion´s page: "El reggaeton no es originario de Panamá, es exclusivo de Puerto Rico; aunque aca en Panamá se escucha. No confundir reggaeton con reggae, género que Panamá ha cultivado en los ultimos años(Taichi)"
I think that if this article should include the two version of the histoy to be just.-- Abeyno
Well the article was changed to try and give equal weight to Panama and Puerto Rico, with the opening line "beginnings in Panama", as well as a heavy emphasis in Puerto Rico in the rest of the article. The references after the first sentence all point to the fact that there are Panamanian origins (to whatever extent). I do suggest that maybe more emphasis be given to Puerto Rico, especially the difference between Reggae and Reggaeton, but the problem has been people coming in and changing the text to say Puerto Rico (on its own) leading to reverts which completely disrupt attempts to make the article better. The article as it is is good but can be improved. - Master Of Ninja 17:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Why I just added the NPOV template

I'm the original writer of the longer article, which in turn included sparing parts of the previous stub article and information gleaned mostly from various web pages. I've got no personal connection to the Reggaeton community besides being a distant, non-spanish-speaking fan of its output, so I'm happy to see the article being expanded to the extent that it has been by dedicated fans.

However, as I've watched this article grow, the meaning has changed rather dramatically in a number of areas. As an outsider I don't believe myself qualified to adjudicate the disputes presented within, and I've instead added the NPOV template. You're welcome to remove it if you feel you're able to settle all the possible disputes.

I will, however, list the major things that have changed since I first started the article off. I've left out the ones on spelling (Latino America? Why?) and the ones that constructively added to the article.

  • The major problem appears to be the dispute between Puerto Ricans and Panamaians concerning the origin of the music. My original formulation "originating in Puerto Rico and Panama" has, in turn, had both countries removed. It currently reads only "Panama" which seems dubious to say the least.
  • All references to hip-hop have been removed from the opening two sections. What, exactly, is a "pop" influence and how does it differ from the influences on Jamaican music at the time?
  • While I greatly appreciate the expanded "Distinguishing Features" section, the assertion that Reggaeton's drum machine track is derived from early dancehall is just plain wrong. It was a good decade into dancehall's existence that the afro-carribbean 3+3+2 rhythm was first used, replacing one-drop, which had reigned for the previous 30 years. At no point in ragga history was the drum track that pronounced. Also, the formulation was an attempt to describe what distinguished reggaeton from dancehall, not what brought them together. (What was removed was essentially a reference to older Puerto Rican styles. Some kind of discussion on the latino roots of Reggaeton would be appropriate, I think, unless you believe it to have been created in a cultural vacuum. Which it might well have been, I don't know.)
  • The "Reggaeton Today" section needs serious restructuring - my formulation about the international hits belongs together at the end with the N.O.R.E. hit. Certainly, it should not start off the paragraph. Someone please rewrite.
  • All Panamaians have been removed from the "Well-known artists" list in a previous edit. Please rectify. Also, Héctor y Tito appear twice. :) And is N.O.R.E. really a reggaeton artist?

Birdseed 11:54, 2005 Mar 4 (UTC)

Birdseed and esekaese - I'm trying to change the article with your suggestions as well as my own thoughts in mind. Let me know what you think.

Wathiik 08:08, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am Mexican from many generations. I am an American citizen. I have been a working musician for more than thirty years. In the last few years I have worked with some of the best new young producers in the Los Angeles recording/music scene. I stay fairly current with all music styles... it is a big job to do this, but I love new music. I am telling you this so you will know that I am an experienced musician/composer. This is what I want to say... Reggaeton is not "Hispanic" music per se, it is black-Latin music... or more correctly Afro-Latin music. Other than speaking a form of Spanish, we (Mexicans) have as much in common with Afro-Latins as Anglo-Europeans have with Blacks, though we are all sisters and brothers in the eyes of God.

I believe, with all my heart, that this distinction should be made to preserve the dignity of Mexican musical art. I an NOT saying Mexican people do not listen to Reggaeton, this would be far from the truth, or that there isn't a growing Mexican flavored style of Reggaeton. What I am saying is that I would like the world to understand that Reggaeton does not represent the musical history of Mexico or Mexican people. I am simply noting the cultural and geographic differences in that Mexico is not Afro influenced in the way other Latin countries, especially Caribbean Latin countries where the African, by way of morphing from Afro to Caribbean, to Latin, influence is a large part of the "beat" of the music... which, I believe, made the Afro-Latin Reggaeton a natural extension of American Rap.

One reason I believe Reggaeton has become so instantly popular (besides the alluring beats) is that the Afro-Latin population in certain areas of the United States now has a "commercial" or "radio" identity. The Afro-Latins have for too long been bunched together with Mexicans. This is not fair... Afro-Latins, though Spanish speakers, have a long and beautiful history of their own, but this has rarely been recognized... but this is now changing. I'm glad because as a Mexican I know what it has been like to be "invisible" in the "culture" of the general American population. Thank Dog more and more cultures are being recognized. Let us all hope that we represent our cultures in a way that God would approve of.

[edit] Neutrality regarding controversy section?

The neutrality in the Controversy section of the article is debateable. Living in Puerto Rico, I can assert that not all lyrics or music is an example to follow. Many times have the artists, rappers or whatever you may want to call them, said that their music and/or lyrics represent either: an example, or what they think is right or wrong and are an ACT, a SHOW that people like, just like a movie. Many times "perreo" has been called obscene, and just as many times compared to older dance movements that, in their time, caused just as much a stir. The deaths the section mentions in clubs and pubs have nothing to do with the music or the dance, they are many times revenge on drug-related murders. It's true that David Sanchez (Tempo) is serving a 24-year sentence on heroin trafficking, but even though he is in prison, many consider him to be the king of puertorrican rap. Many people think the justice system in the island wants to set an example out of him, the judge of the case was quoted as saying: "Being an artist, you should set an example to our kids very different that what you are showing", on my part I think the remark coming from the judge was inappropiate and biased. People here in the island may remember othe rappers such as Don Omar, who was arrested while supposedly smoking marijuana and with a gun with a mutilated serial number, when it was proved he waas not smoking, but the other people traveling in the vehicle were, these people were not tried. The exact same scenario happened to Julio Voltio, and no cause was found for trial. A more recent case, in which the singer Berto, from the group Trebol Clan, was arrested for driving drunk and One Pound of marijuana was found inside the SUV he was driving, again no cause was found. So, the point I'm trying to demonstrate is the same as actors and characters, rappers/singers have the image the project to people, the public face, and have a person face too, meaning that just because a song says he shoots 10 people with an AK47, he really does it, which I'm sure that this is the case many times, very similar to a movie.

Sorry for the long rant but I felt that the whole story should be considered, not just one point of view. Miguelfp1 05:56, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

it is not a representation of latin america, itis more poular in the u.s than in latin america. there are huge movements to keep it out of countries like colombia. these movements are supported by lovers of true hip hop like J Kapo. The only people in latin america who buy it are 20 yr old girls, and even they admit that the lyrics are garbage. It lacks in originality,but most americans would not understand this because of the language barrier.There are certain names of groups that are almost exact translations of american hip hop artists(such as"rompiendo el silencio"="Disturbin tha peace").They also do not credit the artists that they steel from. Hector Lavoe, a famous salsa singer, recorded a song called "Juanito Alimana" which was then taken by Don Omar who changed a few of the words and passed it off as original. Traditional music such as salsa, merengue, bachata, cumbia and others represent us much better. It is strictly a puerto Rican thing. If you want rap in spanish you should look into rap from countries such as chile, colombia,peru and mexico. dont be fooled by these reggaeton "artists"

[edit] Criticisms???

Should it be a section of criticisms of the music genre? Like political connections. The PNP had use the reggaeton to get the young vote more that the other political parties. Also let be honest even though is a Puerto Rican genre, not a lot people like it.

Feel free to add and see what people think. It might even be better to put it in the Puerto Rico section at the bottom rather than in a criticim section at the moment. Also you should really sign your name after a post in discussions pages with 4 of the ~ characters. The above post seems to have gone through a few edits without being signed. - Master Of Ninja 19:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree, there should be a section on criticisms, it has been hit pretty hard for its lyrics and the repetitive use of the dem bow. CraigP 02:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wording

There are some problems with the wording in the article which I'd rather discuss here than just go ahead and edit myself:

  • as become popular with Latin America in youth during the late 1990s and has spread to North American and European audiences

Since one of the biggest countries in Latin America is in North America, this just isn't right. Mexico may not play a key role in Reggaeton but I haven't heard many other types of music in the 2 months I've been in Mexico. The current wording plays up to the ignorant notion that Mexico is in either Central America or South America.

  • Reggaeton - also spelled Reggaetón and hispanicised as Reguetón

Since Reggaeton originated in hispanic nations the word has never been hispanicised. The Spanish word Reguetón has rather been anglicised as Reggaetón or Reggaeton.

— Hippietrail 15:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The second point seems somewhat doubtful. "Reggae", obviously the origin of the word "Reggaeton", tends to be uniformly spelt across the world since it has that indelible "foreign" flavour to non-jamaicans. I'm confident this is the same in spanish - do a google search, spanish only, for reggae and regue if you don't believe me (1.5 milion to 17 000, the front page of which are clearly not about music).
Now if Reggaetón was the original spelling I don't know, but Reguetón is definately a later construct. Birdseed 11:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Spanish has a language academy which regulates its spelling. Interstingly, it only includes "reggae" which is unusual in that Spanish usually eliminates double letters in borrowings. "Reggaeton" is too new to yet be in the RAE dictionary. The suffix "-ón" in Spanish is an augmentative and is always spelled with the accent in that language. So let me correct my correction thus:

The Spanish word Reggaetón (or Reguetón) has been anglicised as Reggaeton. — Hippietrail 02:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't Reguetón still be a hispanification though? Birdseed 16:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I think you could say the spelling "Reguetón" is hispanicized. Which is subtly different because it focuses on the spelling rather than the word. Calling a Spanish word a hispanification would be either wrong or misleading. a) "reggae" was an English word, b) "reggae" became a Spanish word, retaining its foreign spelling, c) "reggaetón" became a new Spanish word, d) "reggaetón" became an English word with the anclicised spelling "reggaeton", e) "reguetón" appeared as a spelling variant of an already-Spanish word which adhered to the rules of Spanish orthography unlike its original spelling.
Chronologically, d) and e) could have ocurred in the opposite order or simultaneously. But anyway this all seems way to much to put in the article. There is one English spelling and two Spanish spellings, both of which may sometimes be seen in English to varying degrees. — Hippietrail 18:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Spain may have its language academy, but that doesn't hold much weight in the Caribbean. (Daddy Yankee, Mas Flow, Luny Tunes aren't exactly proper Spanish either). It could even be that regueton is a spelling fed back from Spain. -- Beardo 04:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


hello everyone.ME LLAMO JOSE please read this article with an open mind and understand that this is just my opinion. however, before drawing a conclusion to what i said look out there into the world ask questions and even do reasearch before accepting what is true and what is not. first, i love music very much, what i don't like is the way how black culture is being disrespected. Reggaeton is Not from puerto Rico. during the construction of the panama canal jamicans went seeking work. it was a huge project and people from other neighboring countires also participated. Jamicans brought their culture to panama their music, food, dance and so on. Panamanians embraced this new genre and spanish reggea was born. thanks to people like el general and other artists who held dow spanish reggea for so long. it's just like salsa, it did not start in PR .instead it did in CUBA, YES CUBA. why do you thisk the queen of salsa IS " celia cruz " OH , and by the way she is not from PR she is Cubana. it's just like hispanic men in the us rapping. it is not their genre of music it is just done by them that's all. reggaeton is done by artist who speak spanish, it does not mean that it originated from PR. WHY ARE PEOPLE LYING ABOUT THE TRUTH. I am from the Dominican Republic and i read a lot about cultures, religion, and other historic events and believe me when i tell you this REGGAETON IS REGGEA WHICH CAME FROM JAMICA TO PANAMA THEN PUERTO RICO. IT IS BLACK MUSIC AND BLACK CULTURE.

[edit] Origins of the name reggaeton

  • Hi - i just wanted to log this (currently unverifiable) bit of research on the origins of the word reggaeton, which might help with the above discussion on hispanisation. This link seems to suggest that the word it from reggae itself, and was used by first used by DJ Blass in mixtapes. DJ Nelson first used the name in a commercial album. So it suggests that DJ Blass should be given credit for this. However I can find no other research which indicates this unless we have a verifiable source for the mixtapes and albums. I suspect if they exist that they will be in spanish so might need someone quite proficient in the langugage to look all this up. - Master Of Ninja 00:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Inclusion of links to photos

For whatever reason, a few wiki users who seem to neither speak Spanish or listen to reggaeton continue to vandalize this page. Numerous wikipedia articles on music genres and subgenres link to sites with little more than photos (not to mention the countless wiki dedicated to people that only link to galleries). The fact that wiki contain photos means the images have encyopledia value. The link is to a nonprofit site with reggaeton images and reggaeton articles and interviews. I remove links to sites that are just selling something (CDs), removing this link is page vandalism, and repeat violators will be reported. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.159.20.189 (talk • contribs) 00:18, 8 January 2006.

  • The link you keep adding is spam, whether the site is commercial or not. It adds absolutely no encyclopedic value to the article. --Ezeu 02:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Ezeu, kindly explain the distinction between the encyclopedic value of a photo inserted into a wiki about music (example: photos in Salsa Music: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsa_music ) and a link to photos directly relating to people mentioned in a wiki (three instrumental people mentioned in the Reggaeton wiki are pictured in the linked gallery). Both cases involve photos of artists mentioned, they are both relevant, they both contribute to the encyclopedic value of an article, the difference is that a link is less intrusive than inserting multiple photos into an article because it gives the reader a choice of whether or not they would like to see photos of the artists mentioned (and visit the news page to read updated news on those same artists).
If you want to include the photos, include them directly in the article. We aren't "vandalizing." Perhaps we'd take you more seriously if you used a user account, instead of an ip address. Because with ip addresses, its possible that you're switching. Please read Wikipedia:External links. Thanks, --Urthogie 12:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, note that Salsa music doesn't have any external links to spam.--Urthogie 12:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
  • You are entirely missing the point, Ezeu's argument is that photos do not have an encyclopedic value, when countless music wikis contain photos. Its a total contradiction. As long as music wikis contain photos, and those photos are relevant to the article, there are going to be links to photo galleries (just like Andy Warhol's wiki has links to galleries). I won't include photos in the article because they are watermarked with a site URL, its tacky and intrusive. A link gives people a choice and its not "in your face".
Well apparently you don't know Wikipedia's rules. If any wikipedia page does have such galleries, I intend on removing them as they are SPAM. Check two you is an actual user, you are an anonymous spammer who has made no real significant edits. I find it funny that everyone reverting me and check are anon ip's. Please stop, your site will not be advertised here, as you can see in Wikipedia:External Links. Also, im gonna try and get this page protected from anonymous users.--Urthogie 21:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Urthogie, you have been reported for multiple vandalisms of this page. Your derogatory comments about Latinos will also be investigated.
I haven't made any derogatory comments. Please stop causing problems on this page. You're breaking wikipedia policy, and I'm going to try and get an sprotect.--Urthogie 09:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charts Link

A link to Reggaeton Charts would a very good addition!

[edit] reggaeton

this is a form of reggaeton

[edit] reggaeton worldwide

That entire last article is not accurate and devoid of citations.

Sensei (Keith Kanashiro) is an obscure Japanese Toronto producer, nowhere on the web or in any magazine has it ever been suggested that he introduced reggaeton to T-Dot. Reggaeton has been around since about 1995, people in Japan were exposed to reggaeton well prior to a 2003 article in Latina, Vibe has been covering urban Japanese affinity with Hip Hop and its subgenres since the 90's.

To suggest that no Japanese groups performed over reggaeton production until 2005 is laughable. The reference to Los Kalibres is kind of reaching, its a group of Peruan kids that mixed Japanese and Spanish and coined the term Japanol, you would have to reference every single country that mixed their native language with Spanish in performing reggaeton if you include them. And they didn't seem to get much fanfare in Latin American countries when all the feedback comments about them are negative (scroll down and see comments):

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/47227/0/reggeton/peruano/japon/

And Gasolina is still a hit in a lot of places worldwide.

Fair enough. I tagged the last section with citationneeded tags as the whole section sprang up at some point in time, but there was no references. I was actually wondering what Japanol was - now I know. The section is still there in the history if anyone gets round to referencing it, and wants to counterpoint - Master Of Ninja 18:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The Japanol thing definitely had to go, its not like "Spanglish" which has been a term used for decades and commonly accepted, its something a couple of guys made up. It seemed all very Japanese-leaning, down to the notion that a Japanese DJ brought reggaeton music to Toronto (any person of any nationality can introduce that music to an area, but it just seemed like someoneone was pushing to show Japanese people bolstered the reggaeton movement in Canada when they didn't). I'm more than happy to hear counterpoints from someone with links to supporting articles, though.

[edit] reggaeton in America

You can't credit NY as the sole birthplace of reggaeton in popularity because it had a major foothold in places like Miami (simply because of its proximity to Puerto Rico and people traveling back and forth with the music easier). Also, its not that its characterized as "east coast" , its generally considered "caribbean". The fact that most people from Cuba, PR and DR are more concentrated along the East Coast rather than the west coast just means there's more interest in those areas. Chicano Rap is considered West Coast because of its focus, Reggaeton is popular across the U.S., its just the biggest artists are along the East coast (but the sound is still caribbean, not coastal). The subject matter and production isn't that coastal.

[edit] reggaeton origins

Some people don't want to concede that Puerto Rico wasn't the birthplace of reggaeton, but anyone familiar with the music of El General or who ever listened to "Te Ves Buena" realizes that the music originated in Panama. Just as Salsa originated in Cuba but evolved and was made popular in PR, reggaeton took off in Puerto Rico. Someone changed the article wording to suggest that it could be from Puerto Rico when the consensus has been that its roots are in Panama.

Check the citations, major media sources credit Panama.

As far as the other countries, reggaeton is not born in Cuba, part of what describes reggaeton music is discussion on society's problems, sexuality, and crime, and that's exactly why the Cuban government bans a great deal of reggaeton music on the island. Its played there, but it didn't originate from there. For those that say its from the Dominican Republic, cite sources, because its news to me if it came from there. The Colombian references are possible (see the first discussions on the subject below), but at best it would mean that Panama used a few elements of Colombian music. Sources would be a plus, as I've never once heard someone credit Colombia as being the birthplace of reggaeton.

We need to come to a consensus of this. Recently people have been adding their favourite country into various parts of the article with respect to reggaeton, with other deleting things and what not. For a long time before the consensus was that while the basis of reggaeton was panamanian, the actual style of reggaeton was from Puerto Rico. While the older article was quite clear, recent changes have made the text flow less well. We should get to a new consensus which should be located here, and not modified, as well as referenced properly. Would it be also possible to sign their comments on the discussion page with four tildes to log the name, date and time? Comments please. - Master Of Ninja 20:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dem Bow and El General

We need to get this straight - who actually influenced reggaeton more, El General or Shabba Ranks? I actually think that El General's songs are somewhat closer to modern reggaeton because many other of Shabba Ranks' songs beside "Dem Bow" have really different beats from reggaeton.

Another note: El General produced a song called "Son Bow", which is the 12th track in his CD "Hit". See here The song is nearly identical to Shabba Ranks' "Dem Bow." See here, 7th track Who actually came up with this song first, and did Shabba Ranks actually have any influence on reggaeton ("Dem Bow" doesn't seem to be an original beat)? — Stevey7788 (talk) 23:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Who actually released their songs first? Besides, in interviews that I've heard and read Shabba Ranks and 'Dem Bow' are heavily referenced as influences. The actually mention that reggaeton was called 'dembow' at one point in time - Master Of Ninja 05:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Shabba Ranks came out with Dem Bow in 1990. El General came out with Son Bow a year later in 1991, I got the El General album when it came out (el General basically recycled the song). Puerto Rican reggaeton wasn't lifted from Jamaica directly, so you can't credit Shabba for reggaeton by having a drum pattern to sample no more than you can credit Hendrix for directly contributing to gangster rap just because Ice-T rapped over rock riffs. Bottom line, Shabba had one BEAT (and I can't say for certain that Shabba wasn't using a beat other Jamaicans were) that El General ran with, but a good number of El General's tracks don't use production completely in Shabba's production style. El General created a new sound in Spanish, its that sound (and U.S. rap music) that directly influenced Puerto Rican "underground" music, years would pass before they even called it reggaeton. So as far as influences, El General is generally considered the forefather to reggaeton, Jamaican dancehall artists in general (not Shabba specifically) helped inspire Spanish reggae. Did Shabba have a hand in reggaeton? Indirectly, because of a single beat, yes. But remove El General from the equation, and reggaeton would definitely not exist. El General, Vico C, I remember when each CD came out and when the first reggaeton CDs started coming out of Puerto Rico.


User: RayLover I love reggaeton!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[edit] What About the White People?

Do we have any information concerning how most Americans feel about Reggaeton? For example, the white reaction to the music, or the differences in reaction between white adults and white youths, would be nice. There does not seem to be a whole lot in here about that. History21 06:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)History21

Why don't u add it?

What might be interesting is seeing how the 'bubbling' style of music we have in Surinam, Aruba, and in the Netherlands relates to Reggaeton. When I first heard reggaeton it reminded me of the bubbling music style. Good examples to look for might be Don & Johnson's Bring That Beat Back (bubbling remix), Beenie Man's Dance Hall Queen (bubbling remix), Brainpower's Dansplaat (bubbling remix), Jennifer Lopez' Love Don't Cost a Thing (bubbling remix), and for non-remix work: K-liber's Viben or Doe Het (ft. Def Rhymz), Def Rhymz' Shudden or Ik ben niet te stoppe for comparison. There must have been some cross-polination at one point. --asmodai 08:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that Bubbling Beat stuff is very interesting! It's kinda similar to DJ Laz and other latin-oriented bass performers circa 1992 and the beats sound a bit like Merengue but aren't (and also seem really free, which is a good thing). I'd really appreciate an article by someone who knows about the history of the genre. Birdseed 15:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
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