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1 December 6
2 December 7
3 December 8
4 December 9
- 4.1 Grammar question
5 December 10
- 5.1 ENGLISH TO COPTIC..PLEASE
- 5.2 "Crossing the bar"
6 December 11
7 December 12
8 December 13
9 December 14

[edit] December 6

[edit] Polish Translation

Could anyone please tell me what 'Aby się załogować wpisz poniżej otrzymany kod sms i kliknij na sprawdz' means in english? Thanks! 74.102.47.179 01:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

It literaly means 'In order to log in enter below the sms given code and click on check'. Spranykot 01:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Spranykot

[edit] greek language

How do you speak in greek and write in it?

On the assumption that you mean modern Greek, either be born into a Greek family, or learn to speak and write the language as an adult. Am I missing something here? Clio the Muse 01:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

HOW do you speak and write in greek?? Using Greek words and letters? I think we are missing something. ;) Vespine 04:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Very carefully. —Keenan Pepper 23:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

όπως αυτό — Gogobera 02:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC) (Sorry, that's actually a terrible babelfishing. I'm almost entirely sure it's nonsensical in Greek. Hopefully some funny survived the 'translation.')

[edit] Abiento

What does the word abiento mean? What language? LEsB

It's a 2-word French expression: à bientôt, meaning goodbye (more or less). JackofOz 01:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Abiento also means December in Aragonese. (Not to be confused with Aragornese). Here's a link to the Aragonese Wikipedia's stubby-stub-stub article on Abiento. Compare with avientu in Asturian, abendu in Basque (both meaning December), or with adviento in Castilian Spanish meaning Advent.

[edit] God rest ye merry gentlemen

Is the proper punctuation "God rest ye, merry gentlemen" or "God rest ye merry, gentlemen"? User:Zoe|(talk) 03:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen has some answers. --Kjoonlee 05:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was the other way. I'm so dismayed. Clarityfiend 17:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

So it means "May God keep you strong, gentlemen".--Shantavira 18:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. And Clarity, maybe you've gone astray... Skittle 00:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Kjoon, why didn't I even think to look it up here? User:Zoe|(talk) 03:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Only you, in your infinite wisdom, know the answer to that. :) JackofOz 03:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of "J"

In which languages is "J" pronunced as "Y"? Also, how is "Trojan" pronunced? —Masatran 04:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

On the first question, see J. (In IPA, the pronunciation as "Y" is written /j/.) "Trojan" is pronounced in English with the usual English J sound. --Anonymous, 05:35 UTC, December 6.

In English, referring to the ancient city of Troy, it's "trow-jan", where by "j" I mean the initial sound of "jam". (Of course, since it's all one word, the "j" is not as pronounced/emphatic as in "toe-jam", say, so maybe a better reference is the sound represented by "g" in "magical".)

In answer to your other question, many Slavic languages with alphabets derived from the Latin alphabet use the letter "J" to represent the palatal approximant, which in English is written as "Y" (for example, Slovenian or Czech); some languages whose alphabets are derived from the Cyrillic alphabet add a letter similar to "J" to represent the same sound -- for example, Serbian (in both Latin and Cyrillic scripts) or Macedonian (derived from Serbian). See Je (Cyrillic). Tesseran 05:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

<J> is pronounced /j/ (i.e. what I think Masatran means by 'Y') in the vast majority of languages that use it. The exceptions are European languages from French westward (French, Spanish, Portuguese, English - not sure about the other languages of France and Spain) and languages whose orthography has been influenced by one of these. --ColinFine 00:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did I?

On the banks of the river I can look down from my house, did I make a small garden.

is this grammatically correct? if incorrect, why? --70.187.163.141 06:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it depends.

I did not build a garden near my house. On the banks of the river I can look down from my house, did I make a small garden.

This chould be a case of subject-auxiliary inversion (IIRC) for emphasis. --Kjoonlee 07:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Compare

On no account will I build a garden near my house.

In this case it's a negative which drives the inversion. --Kjoonlee 07:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this gibberish - grammar aside. Do you mean "From my house I can look down on the banks of the river.." If so then yes it's incorrect. Note: It's impossible to look down on anything at the river bank except the river since the river occupies the lowest ground. ", did I make a small garden" should be "Did I make a small garden ?" use a new sentence - (unless this is some form of poetry)

No way is this grammatically correct.83.100.138.168 10:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Kjoonlee what are you on about? Is this poetry by any chance? I'm sure if you read or spoke it it would make sense - but for written language clarity is important..83.100.138.168 10:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Also "On the banks of the river I can look down on from my house." ?83.100.138.168 11:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I did not build a garden near my house. On the banks of the river, which I can see clearly from my house, did I make a small garden.

How does this version sound? --Kjoonlee 12:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

This version is easier to understand (why no question mark?). I'm not sure that understandability is the issue here.83.100.138.168 12:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Judging from the title of the question, the question is probably about Subject-Auxiliary Inversion (SAI); you used SAI too, in "No way is this grammatically correct." You didn't say, "No way this is grammatically correct." --Kjoonlee 12:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I haven't got a clue from the title what the question is about. But clearly "I did.."is a statement and "Did I.." would be a question. Whereas there is very little difference in meaning between "No way is this grammatically correct." and "No way this is grammatically correct." (would be different if I'd left out the 'no way' part)- both are ways of saying "I don't think this is grammatically correct". Perhaps grammar is the wrong term here.83.100.138.168 12:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree. "No way this is grammatically correct" would be an ungrammatical sentence which should be corrected to "[There is] no way this can be grammatically correct," or "[There is] no way this could be grammatically correct." --Kjoonlee 16:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Disagree with what? 87.102.6.143 17:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*sigh* Never mind. Never will I feel the same when replying to anonymous posters. --Kjoonlee 17:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The original sentence is not only grammatically incorrect, but ambiguous. Unless we know what you're trying to say it's impossible to correct it. Is it a question? If so, it would read better if it began "Did I" to warn to reader that it is a question. This would be unusual, as you usually know what you did and don't need to ask. Otherwise I would render it as: "From my house I can look down on the riverbank, where I made a small garden." But I don't know if that is what is meant.--Shantavira 12:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Only when people understood me did I feel comfortable. *sigh* --Kjoonlee 12:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If the issue is really one of grammar then it would be better if the original poster could come back and tell us what they meant to say..83.100.138.168 12:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually I recognise this - Geordies talk crap like this83.100.138.168 13:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know only people in that part of the world talk like this (the first sentence) - and as far as I can tell the meaning is to point out a garden on the banks of a river...83.100.138.168 13:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The answer is no,"On the banks of the river, which I can look down on from my house, did I make a small garden?" would be better. Why is the original incorrect - it makes no sense, that's why.83.100.138.168 13:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

You're missing the point. After SAI, the sentence structure sort of looks like an interrogative one, but it actually isn't. It's a statement, not a question. "Never will I do that again." This is a statement, as is "Only there did I make a small garden." --Kjoonlee 16:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What point am I missing - the sentence makes no sense - there is no before and after 'SAI'; only one sentence was provided.87.102.6.143 17:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I will never do that again.
Never will I do that again.

This is SAI. The original poster might have been asking whether "will I" would be grammatical in the second sentence I've just mentioned. --Kjoonlee 17:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

This is all very well but "did I make a small garden" is a question (possibly rhetorical). "I did make a garden" or better "I made a garden" or "I have made a garden" is a statement. The poster didn't ask whether "will I" would be grammatical at all. Why not re-read the original question - and you will see why I am confused as to why you think "SAI" is relevant here.87.102.6.143 18:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Never do you understand what I say, but I think I'll try again. "Will" is an auxiliary verb. "I" is the subject of most of the example sentences in this section. Surprise surprise, sometimes they can be inverted. Same with "do" which can also be an auxiliary verb and "I". If they switch orders then it's SAI. Did you notice how this section is titled "Did I?" --Kjoonlee 18:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

"Only there did I make a small garden" is still a statement. You might say the original poster didn't use a strong enough qualifying phrase to start the sentence, but I don't think that's what he/she was asking. --Kjoonlee 18:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you're trying to turn english into some sort of galactic basic as spoken by yoda (joke). Reading the original sentence though you will notice that it reads ",did I make" not "only there did I make". I agree that with suitable modification "did I" can be a statement - but that's not in the original sentence.87.102.6.143 18:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, now you have realized why the original sentence was "nonsense"; because it didn't start with an adequate phrase. Now, what's adequate can differ from person to person, which is why I said that it depends. --Kjoonlee 18:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

But it should be 'look down along from my house' or 'look down on from my house' (the river), it even could be 'look down to my house'. Not 'on the banks of .. I can look down from my house' because that suggests that he is on the river and in his house at the same time.87.102.6.143 19:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If by 'garden' you mean that you urinated into the river, well, you made a wonderful garden indeed. Theavatar3 18:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, the original poster is here.

On the banks of the river I can look down from my house, did I make a small garden. When I moved here in September last year, there were some greens left, but autumn was before long. With a small river in between, I was in the city, leaving my eyes and soul in the low mountains, the river and the desolate fields after harvests.

this is a sentence that one of my students wrote in class. we've had several disputes on the correctness of the first part but no real solution yet. --70.187.163.141 22:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

My two cents: I can parse it so that it's grammatically correct, if awkward. You can "look down a river", so the river I can look down from my house is a grammatical noun phrase. On the banks of that river, did he or she make a small garden. —Keenan Pepper 23:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Following Keenan Pepper, we could interpret the sentence as "From my house, I can look down the River Tesseran. On its banks did I make a small garden." (inversion, "look down" = "look along") And by changing only one word ("I can" to "I could"), we get a conditional sentence: "On the banks of the river I could look down from my house, did I make a small garden." ("My house is on the banks of the river, and I could look down from my window, if only I made a small garden. I should probably make a garden." or alternately "I could look down on the banks of the river from my window, if only etc.") I don't believe that this use of "did I" for "if I did" is ever used today, though, and the sentence you get is completely meaningless. What's certain is that the first two sentences are incomprehensible, and the third is incomprehensible too if it isn't poetry. Is this student a native speaker of English? Tesseran 02:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That was my question too. "Autumn was before long" is not a phrase I've ever heard a native English speaker speak; and if they did, I'd raise an eyebrow or two. "With a small river in between, I was in the city ..". Between what? This is not good English. Since there's been such discussion of "did I make a small garden" and little consensus as to even whether it's a statement or a question, it's clear the meaning (whatever it is) has not been successfully transmitted. On that basis alone, I would fail it. The question of whether it's grammatically correct is academic, but essentially irrelevant. JackofOz 03:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

it's not a native speaker. It was a SAT writting class that I teach and some students brought an awkward essay, (that was written by a foreigner) and asked about the certain problem. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.187.163.141 (talk) 04:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

If it's meant to be prose, the technical question of the grammar is irrelevant. It is in no way idiomatic english, and therefore surely wrong. If it is poetry, I suppose it may work within the body of a larger work. juleswatt

[edit] Origin of the name Cabragh? Do you think it is a corruption of Gabragh?

I have been writing an article on Cabragh House in Nelson, New Zealand.

{{helpme}} Can anyone help me with the origin of the name Cabragh? Do you think it is a corruption of Gabragh?

W. Frank 10:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

According to here, it is an Irish name meaning "rough or bad land." BTW, please only use the {{helpme}} tag when you need immediate help (of the I-can't-wait) type. I have no idea of the name's relation to Gabragh. SWAdair 10:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I had already included the http://www.geographyinaction.co.uk/Townlands/pnamesmeaning.html reference in the external links of my Cabragh House article but I wondered if anyone could think of any reasons why a house in New Zealand could be called by that name - all the other references are to egypt... W. Frank 11:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How would you translate this from Polish to English?

How would you translate this from Polish to English:

Ministerstwo Pracy i Polityki Społecznej; Ministerstwo Budownictwa .

????? Thank you very much. YXYX 13:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

"Ministry of labor and social politics (policy); ministry of construction" hope this is right I used http://www.poltran.com/pl.php4 83.100.138.168 13:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If it's relevant the UK equivalents probably include:

Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) Department for Education and Skills (DfES) Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) Home Office (HO) Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) 83.100.138.168 13:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much,this is excatly what I needed YXYX 15:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "scrubs" meaning operating theater dress.

The word "scrubs" is not normally used in the "theater apparel" sense in South African English. "Theater clothes", "theater dress" would be the normal terms. If one asked for "scrubs" one would likely have a nurse off searching for a nailbrush. What about Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, India et al. What do the locals say? -- Seejyb 19:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It's the standard term in all the dialects of English I'm familiar with. --Diderot 22:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify your question, "theater" refers to operating theatre, correct? In the U.S. that's called an operating room or O.R. "Theater apparel" would maybe refer to costumes. -THB 22:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Or a tuxedo and evening dress. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Operating theater wear, as per question heading. I'll get back on this, since I wish to add to the Scrubs (clothing) article, specifically regarding the technical and scientific aspects. The word "Scrubs" is not much used in technical medical literature, and where it is, it refers mostly to hand cleaning solutions, not to clothing. I was wondering if this was then simply informal use, and whether it was regional. Some quick telephonic WP:OR locally showed that local operating theater suites do not use the word "scrubs" in their documentation (ordering, interdepartmental communications) referring to clothing, and that the matrons concerned do not consider it normal use among personnel here (6 out of 6). My problem is that one cannot get an idea of how the word is used by reviewing the medical literature, and would have to get information from every country/area involved - which may end up as WP:OR. As an illustration of the dilemma, what does one make of the following (from an informal UK report on a meeting)? "...the members expressed their concern about the incidence of cross infection, and suggested that the use of scrubs should be looked into." There are no further clues as to whether this is hand wash or clothing that should be "looked into", but if the British do not generally use "scrubs" for OR wear, then an informed guess would be possible. Possibly some e-mails to various hospitals in the world would yield the necessary not-original research. --Seejyb 09:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Forms of Poetry

Does anyone know good, sophisticated poems for any of the following forms of poetry?

ballad, sonnets: italian (petrarchan) and English ( shakespearean), couplet stanzas, quatrain stanzas, blank verse, free verse, haiku, form poem?

or if not, does anyone know really good websites to find these kinds of poems and others.

Thanks!

-Anonymous

Wikisource has lots of poetry, but less so of the modern (copyrighted) kind.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 22:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks, anyone else?

Project Gutenburg is also good for free, out of copyright, poetry, but it's probably less searchable than Wikisource. It has more stuff, but I think it's arranged according to book. Skittle 00:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, shockingly, I generally find that if you search Wikipedia for these forms (ie, Sonnet), the articles tend to include typical examples and names of poets who used the forms, and sometimes names of specific poems that aren't included. Skittle 00:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm also confused by your mentioning 'form poem'. Do you mean 'Shape poem', or do you mean 'open/closed form poem', or something else? Or have I misunderstood that sentence? Anyway, last time I looked ballad, sonnet, couplet, quatrain, blank verse, free verse and haiku were pretty good resources for this. Skittle 00:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks guys, all of you! by form poem i meant a poem where the words are written in the form of a shape or something like that. like if the poem was about a teacup then it would be written in the shape of a teacup. does anyone else know specific poems that fit any of the types above?

[edit] The Catcher in the rye

Does anyone know the prominant themes or life lessons in The catcher in the rye? Or things learned by holden? Thanks alot.

Have you looked at the articles on The Catcher in the Rye, Holden Caufield, and J. D. Salinger? Anchoress 22:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It's been so long since I've read it, but if I recall correctly, it was about a student who searches out a huge repository of knowledge that was searchable by keywords and could be used to thwart any attepmt at forcing that student to do actual work, only to mistakenly wander into a forum concerning language where many off-topic and/or homework related questions are often answered with "look it up." and "Please, before asking, attempt fifteen seconds worth of internet-based research." Astoundingly, when that student does ask such a question in that forum, the second answer recieved was a self-referential comment that really didn't help at all! At this point, the student concludes that everyone in the forum was a phoney. But I've totally glossed over the motif of "hands," and the eyes staring down from the billboard.

Also, just a pet pieve: "a lot" not "alot." — vijay (Talk) 22:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC) P.S. I'd follow the links Anchoress posted, myself.

Haha, I know how to spell a - lot, I just didn't have time, I laughed pretty hard when I read that and I just need a good theme to write an essay on. I really understand the book I just don't know what a good theme is.

It's "peeve", btw. (lol) JackofOz 03:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

From the Holden Caufield article: One of Caulfield's most striking and quintessential qualities is his powerful revulsion for "phony" human qualities. Qualities such as narcissism, hypocrisy, and superficiality embody Holden's concept of phoniness; and, unfortunately, Holden is adept at realizing these qualities in other people. This serves to bolster Holden's cynicism and consequently contributes to his mistrust of other people. Interestingly, despite Holden's strong disdain for phony qualities, he exhibits some of the qualities that he abhors thereby making him a somewhat tragic character.

There are several themes right there. -THB 02:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 7

[edit] Which Songs Are These?

Moved to Humanities. 惑乱分からん 00:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need to know how to say this phrase in Choctaw

Good day,

We are trying to say this phrase in the Choctaw language:

"Good morining, friend. See you later."

Please reply back if you can with the answer as to how to say this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.137.15 (talk • contribs).

[edit] cherokee language

i am looking for the symbols in the cherokee language to represent the word Dad or Father or both if there is any?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.230.216.78 (talk • contribs).

According to [1], father in Cherokee is "e-`do-`da". And if you look at Image:Cherokee Syllabary.png you can see what the symbols for e, do, and da are. I can't guarantee that's correct, but it's a pretty good guess. Nohat 00:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] translation help?

I have a friend on my messenger list that has sent me 2 things in which I do not understand the language. Is there a translation somewhere I can be connected to so that I can figure out what they are saying? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.190.164.194 (talk) 06:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Probably. What language? And what things?--Shantavira 09:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the questioner is saying that they don't know which language the 'things' are written in. If that is the case, finding appropriate translating software might be difficult. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 13:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You could read list of writing systems. What kind of things are you talking about? Do you know from which area of the world they come? From which time period? Could you upload scans on the Internet? 惑乱分からん 14:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I would really advize you to give us a few sentences, or a scan or something. There are quite a few languages being represented here. :) It's very likely someone will be able to help you here.Evilbu 15:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You could also check out Omniglot. If you find out which language it is, you could possibly copy/paste the sentence into an online translator (if you have the energy). 惑乱分からん 16:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Native speakers

Hi there, native speakers are warmly welcome to check the translation of the article about Lothar Wolleh. Many thanks! regards, --84.163.50.148 08:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latin translation request

"Normannica feritate inaudunt." This is actually the end of a very long sentence from the GND (M12), but I cannot find an equivalent to "Normannica" in the English translation, and I'm wondering if it refers to the Normans/Norse, or something else. Thanks. 128.187.0.165 10:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Since it comes from the source you indicate, surely it must refer simply to the Normans? 'They invade with Norman (perhaps Viking) ferocity.' (I presume inaudunt is a typo for invadunt.) Maid Marion 14:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Not Normans, rather Normandy (province). --DLL ^{.. T} 18:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serbo-Croatian or ??

A post-WWII memorial monument in Zagreb has a depiction of the Ten Commandments with the following spelled out:

VI NE UBIJ
VIII NE KRADI

My questions: (a) is this Serbo-Croatian? (b) does the text mean mean: "Thou shalt not kill/murder" and "Thou shalt not steal" ?

-- Thanks, Deborahjay 11:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

a) Yes. But as it's found in Zagreb, somebody will claim that the language is Croatian. Btw, the Serbian version would be the same.

b) Yes.

Thanks! As it's in Latin letters, it wouldn't be Serbian, right? And do I understand from your response, that the correct identification of the language is Serbo-Croatian and referring to it Croatian is a political call -- or the reverse?!? -- Deborahjay 12:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

UPDATED FINDING: From what I just read on the Differences between standard Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian page, the splitting of the Serbo-Croatian language into three official languages ( Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian) occurred after the breakup of Yugoslavia. Evidence I have (and to be verified) points to the monument's having existed before that time, so I'll stick with S-C. Deborahjay 13:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Serbian language is written with both Latin and Cyrilic letters. Personally I never use Cyrilic script unless forced to do so (I even sign my name in Latin script). And its pretty strange to see any website written in Serbian language to be in Cyrilic script. Shinhan 21:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Third party'

From a police statement: "At this stage it does not appear there was any third party involvement in the incident." The incident was a sad case of someone falling to his death from a third floor window. But why do they use the phrase "third party"? If foul play had taken place there would have been two parties, not three. I know that "third party" has a specific meaning in insurance - the first party is the insured, the second is the insurer and the third is whoever else gets involved. But in this case the use of the phrase is surely incorrect. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 14:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the term third party was used because this is a (potential) insurance case. Then again, maybe the police qualifies as the second party in this instance. (?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.65.129.85 (talk) 14:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

It seems that the phrase was used incorrectly. It should have been a second party or another party, not a third party. -THB 21:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"Third party", as defined by Merriam Webster's 11th Collegiate, means "a person other than the principals". Its meaning is idiomatic, and has been more or less shorn of any direct connection to the actual numbers involved. So it wasn't used incorrectly, though perhaps its use might have been avoided just so no one was puzzled. -Nunh-huh 21:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It may be idiomatic, but its use here rings of the pseudo-exact manner that the police and other public officials often adopt in front of the press, in which instead of someone getting out of a car an individual exits a vehicle.--Rallette 07:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Skipping "on" in sentences

Hello! I've noticed certain newspaper reports that go like this: "The Prime Minister ~~Tuesday~~ announced Tuesday..." instead of "The Prime Minister on Tuesday announced...". Was wondering which was correct, and why it is justifiable to skip the "on" in the first example. Thanks so much for the reply. Cheers!--thunderboltz^(Deepu) 14:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think omitting the 'on' is American style (except that it would probably read "announced Tuesday" rather than "Tuesday announced"), and keeping it is British style. As a Brit myself, I would say that the latter is correct and that it is never justifiable to omit the 'on' :-) --Richardrj ^talk ^email 14:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"announced Tuesday" does indeed sound better than "Tuesday announced". 惑乱分からん 14:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it was indeed "announced Tuesday". Thanks, you guys! Being from a commonwealth nation, I guess I should stick to the Brit style. Just why did the Americans have to reinvent English? :( --thunderboltz^(Deepu) 14:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

We didn't; neither the British nor Americans of the 21st Century speak English like they did in the 17th Century.--Prosfilaes 15:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Geez, if you think the Americans mangled English, I have to wonder what you think of Geordie.

This type of shift in usage is pervasive at all times in all languages. Commonwealth English changes constantly just as much as American does. It's just the way it is. There are far larger differences between dialects in England alone than between high register BBC English and high register "newscaster" American. Heck, there might well be larger differences between different neighbourhoods in London than across the Atlantic. --Diderot 15:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In many ways American English is more conservative (i.e. closer to 17th-century common English) than is British English. Marco polo 17:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's really one major way: /r/ in the syllable coda. Otherwise both dialects aren't much more divergent from each other. Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the most noticeable way, but certainly not the only one. Tesseran 10:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a bit like the dropping of "the" in sentences like "American starlet Paris Hilton was found bludgeoned to death today". Not so long ago it would have been "The American starlet Paris Hilton was found bludgeoned to death today". JackofOz 01:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

But aren't such "variations" typical of journalism? In Italian, my language, there are lots of them and they are unused in common speaking (unless you want to appear as sort of reading television news :-)). The original question refers to newspapers reports and I'm under the impression the answers ignore that fact. —Gennaro Prota ^•Talk 13:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It's actually completely different from that. In the case at hand, the word Tuesday has shifted from functioning as a noun to an adverb. In the Paris Hilton example, you have two completely different syntactic sentence structures. In the case with the, the phraseParis Hilton acts as an appositive phrase to the subject The American starlet. In the case without the, the phrase American starlet acts as a kind of personal title adjectival phrase modifying the subject Paris Hilton. It's not just a question of dropping the word "the" but completely changing the syntactic structure of the sentence. Nohat 00:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

When I was learning journalism, I was taught that on is used to separate two terms that are ambiguously juxtaposed. For example, "The Prime Minister announced Tuesday ..." could mean that the person who is Prime Minister stood up and shouted the word "TUESDAY!" Whereas "The Prime Minister Tuesday announced ..." could refer to a Prime Minister whose name is Tuesday. (Wasn't the son of King Friday XIII in The Neighborhood of Make-Believe named Prince Tuesday? Maybe when he grew up, he joined his father's staff???) Anyway, I was never too certain about that rule, but that's what they taught us. — Michael J 18:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe that's where Tuesday Weld got the idea for her name from. Just on the "the" thing: "American starlet" is not a title in the sense that "President" is a title in "President Bush". Maybe the syntactic structure got changed as a by-product of an abuse of journalistic licence, and it can now be described formally in the way you have done, Nohat. But I'm certain that the journos who started dropping "the" from these sorts of examples didn't do so on the basis which you outlined. JackofOz 00:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about "st" in German , in words like "ist" en bist"

Hello,

As far as I know, the "st" in German does not sound like "st" in English. "Stark" and "strong" don't start with the same sound. It's hard to describe, but I'd say it usually sounds like "sh"+"t".

But what about "du bist" and "er ist"? Do I just have to say to "s" and "t" like in English? I'd say yes, but then what exactly is the rule? Thanks, Evilbu 15:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on German, but I think it's generally just as simple as initial vs. medial/final position. 惑乱分からん 16:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I would agree - say 'sht' if it's at the beginning of a word or syllable, otherwise 'st'. There are probably some exceptions, but I'm not an expert on German either. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 16:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

There are essentially two important exceptions: (1) in compound words, "st" at the beginning of a part is still pronounced "sh-t", e.g. bestehen, Verstand; (2) "st" at the beginning of foreign words which are still felt as such is pronounced "s-t", e.g. Stil, Struktur. The latter point depends a bit on regional preferences and education.--80.136.173.216 16:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

We have described the rules for the standard language, but I would point out that in some southern dialects, "st" is pronounced "sht" even in medial and final positions. Marco polo 17:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

... and in some northern dialects, the St in words such as Stein and Strand are pronounced "st" (and not "sht"). ---Sluzzelin 17:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The same dialects, that also are Low German-like in other aspects? 惑乱分からん 18:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It used to exist in Hamburgisch anyway, which is indeed a Northern Low Saxon variety. I remember Helmut Schmidt pronouncing it this way in his speeches, but I have to admit that most younger people seem to have abandoned it, and pronounce it sht- nowadays. ---Sluzzelin 20:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

'sp' has the same thing happening word-initially. Probably related to a similar historical change in the language. Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

High German sound shift? I think it's valid for all instances, where it isn't explicitly marked as sch, (schn*, schl*, schm*), i.e. st, sp... 惑乱分からん 22:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] help

what is the defittion of monotonous —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.164.149.124 (talk) 22:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Repetitive, boring. --Wo o ty Woot? contribs 02:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

nah, not exactly. From the latin (which you can probably break down without knowing the language) it means one (mono) tone (tona-), so it basically means that something is the same over and over, it doesn't necessarily repeat as much as it just never stops. A teacher's voice can be monotonous, also. That means that their voice never goes up or down, just the same tone. Think Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off: "Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?" That's monotonous. Make sense?

You also might want to check out the wiktionary wiktionary definition for monotonous. Wiktionary is a great resource if you want to know the definition for a word, and don't want to use one of those boring online dictionaries.

Hope that helps! -Laurə n^whisper 14:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Both of those answers are correct. --LakeHMM 09:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A multitude of grammar issues

"There is/are a multitude of ways"? Thanks--132.194.13.115 23:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

it would be is. we don't look at the preposition(and the OP) multitude is singular so it should be is. --70.187.163.141 23:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Like number, multitude is a fuzzy quantifier, and in most cases probably takes a plural verb. See [2]. Nohat 00:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd go for "are," as in, "There are a lot of ways." --Kjoonlee 03:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 8

[edit] Saying originator

Who said "Die gedunken sind frei"? Clarityfiend 01:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Never mind. I found it when I spelled it correctly. Clarityfiend 01:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No longer an insult

I'm looking for a word or phrase. It is the process of reclaiming or modifying an insult so that it is no longer an insult. For example, 20 years ago it would be an insult to call somebody "gay" or "queer." Today the gay community embraces both of those terms, they have rehabilitated the terms to make them into positives. The black community has done this, to a certain extent within their own ranks for the "n-word." Rednecks, Goths, Geeks, Nerds, treehuggers all used to be insults, but are now embraced by their communities. I remember studying this phenomenon, but I can't remember what it is called. Does anybody have any idea?

Also, I'd love some better examples... I'd love to have some terms that 50+ years ago were insults, but today are accepted as positives.Balloonman 05:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Cultural appropriation of language. —Seqsea (talk) 05:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's the right term. Cultural appropriation is generally used when a group takes or adopts the habits/practices/beliefs of another group. Usually, in context of a dominant group claiming as their own something traditionally identified with a minority group. What I am looking for is where the language isn't appropriated from one group, but the meaning/understanding of a term is actually changed. The word "Queer" would be highly offensive to a 1980 gay guy, but today we have "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy." The term is no longer an insult, but worn by some with a sense of pride.Balloonman 05:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Found the term: Linguistic Reclamation--- "the appropriation of a pejorative epithet by its target(s)" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Balloonman (talk • contribs) 06:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

On a point of information, I have no idea about the position in the US, but in the UK. 'gay' and 'queer' still have pejorative overtones. For a time gay looked to be emerging from this; but it has tumbled back down, and can now refer to a whole host of negative and undesirable things, beyond homosexulaity. The original meaning of gay, in the sense of being light-hearted, is now completely dead, though. Clio the Muse 06:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

"To reclaim", or more Germanically, "to take back". Back in the 80s, those were the words used for the sort of thing you're describing. So, "linguistic reclamation" fits, but since it's not a language being reclaimed, "terminological reclamation" would be more precise. --Diderot 06:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Semantic change might also have some info on this. Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yep, could be amelioration. --Kjoonlee 07:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to point out an important historical difference between the terms "gay" and "queer", which have not undergone the same process. The term "queer" definitely did start out as a pejorative applied to homosexuals. However, the term "gay" was adopted by homosexuals as a positive self-label. Initially, it was part of an insider's code language that allowed gay people to communicate without outsiders understanding. For example, someone might have said to his companion on the train, "You know, George is quite gay." His companion would have understood, but others sitting nearby would not have been in on the secret. Only after homophobes became familiar with this term was it turned against gay people pejoratively. The history of the term "queer" is nearly the opposite. In the 1970s, gay activists would have objected to the term "queer" and insisted on being called "gay", their preferred label. (See our article Gay.) It was only during the 1980s that radical gays began to adopt the formerly offensive term "queer" in a spirit of defiance, showing in effect that they were not afraid of, and on the contrary, were ready to embrace the term. This new attitude toward the term "queer" came of age with the founding of Queer Nation in 1990. However, even today, there are gay people who are uncomfortable with the term "queer" because of its original and continuing use as a term of abuse. Marco polo 14:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

A relatively early case is Jew. At times Hebrew was substituted for that word. Thus we have The Young Men's Hebrew Association as an equivalent to the Young Men's Christian Association. BTW, in Italian the word for Jew is Ebreo (sp??) I imagine the Jew cognate disappeared entirely out of stigma, although I don't know for sure. Anyone know for sure? mnewmanqc 14:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

There is an Italian form "giudio", but I think that it is considered offensive. Marco polo 18:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

How about "bugger" ? StuRat 17:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Ehhh, I don't think anyone ever "reclaimed" bugger. The sense just weakened... 惑乱分からん 00:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I recall hearing that 'Protestant' was originally a term of derision, but I don't have a source for that sorry. Ziggurat 01:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Do it yourself

What is the origin of the phrase Do it yourself (DIY)? --Ppk01 15:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It means just that: do it yourself instead of hiring someone else (a plumber, builder, carpenter, etc) to do it for you.--Shantavira 15:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, but where did it come from? When was it first used? When did it enter public consciousness? --Ppk01 15:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The earliest OED citations are these:

[1616 T. DRAXE Bibliotheca Scholastica 163/1 If a man will haue his businesse well done, he must doe it himselfe. 1693 W. PENN Some Fruits of Solitude (ed. 2) 66 Have but little to do, and do it thy self. a1845 BARHAM Ingol. Leg. (1905) 288 If it's business of consequence, Do it yourself! 1925 D. BEARD (title) Do it yourself. A book of the big outdoors. 1949 Here & Now (N.Z.) Oct. 17/3 Husbands who have been brought up in the do-it-all-myself tradition of the previous generation.] 1952 Time 30 June 45/3 Do-it-yourself has brought similar gains, and market shifts, to other industries.

The brackets around all but the last indicate that these are considered fortuitous and anterior to its real "entry into public consciousness" and the lexicon. By 1954, it's obviously on people's lips, with the New York Herald Tribune referring to "do-it-yourselfism" and the N.Y. Times referring to the "do-it-yourselfer." So my answer would be, apparently 1952. Wareh 16:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

And wow, that 1952 Time article is available online, so you can mine that for further insight. Wareh 16:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

That's great, thanks for your help! --Ppk01 17:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] racial or slang terms

Is "black mark" considered a racial term? For example "I have a black mark on my academic record". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.121.31.45 (talk) 18:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Not at all, according to the dictionary: here. It refers to a literal black marking next to a name on a list, like you would make with a writing instrument. -THB 18:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I disagree with THB's response insofar as the idiomatic black mark is definitely pejorative, meaning a "stain or blot". Likewise the academic record here isn't necessarily an actual, physical list, but the aggregate of one's performance in studies at a particular institution. HOWEVER, I doubt the black here is racially motivated. So as for your question, it's idiomatic usage, not quite the same as slang. -- Deborahjay 07:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I heard a hiphop song, once, with the chorus "Why is black always wack", or soemthing... However, I doubt the reasoning somewhat, since the word had the meaning of the color, before the meaning of the "race". Oh, well... 惑乱分からん 12:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Second THB.martianlostinspace 19:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Query regarding language

Hi,

I want to know a specific term used to describe the same made by clapping two fingures, usually made by clapping Thumb and Middle fingure

Please let me know the answer

Thanks and Regards, Vivek. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.93.56.166 (talk) 22:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Snapping (one's fingers) as pictured here? Wareh 00:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 9

[edit] Grammar question

Is the form "I wish I would have" grammatically correct? It is taken to mean "I wish I had" as far as I can tell. I can't see any logical reason for it to mean that, though. Is it just a colloquialism that has slipped in, or does it actually make sense? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BungaDunga (talk • contribs) 04:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

There's no single standard of correctness: it depends on who you ask. I can say that I think it is an Americanism, and isn't found in British or other Englishes. (In my own dialect, it's "I wish I had've" or "had of", but that's almost certainly regarded as incorrect by prescriptivists.) --Ptcamn 05:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Gaah! Mixing up "have" and "of" is a personal pet peeve... @_@ 惑乱分からん 16:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a long tradition of replacing "would have" with "had"... see Shakespeare for many examples, like "I had as lief the town crier spoke my lines" from Hamlet. There's a relatively short tradition of speakers replacing "had" with "would have", as in your example. Some kind of, "well, one implies the other, so it most work the other way too", I guess. —Seqsea (talk) 07:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The Shakespeare quote is a bit off, in that here "had" is more or less the main verb, not an auxiliary. It shows a use of the subjunctive considerably more exotic and obsolete. "I had as lief" means "I would have as lief," i.e. "I would just as soon it be the case that..." This is the same conditional subjunctive you see in "But that were madness, sir!" meaning "But that would be madness." (I realize now that I'm assuming the original asker had a past contrafactual wish like "I wish I had not eaten the whole thing," whereas s/he could have meant "I wish I had a million dollars," which is present contrafactual, but my point holds, since you ought still to use the subjunctive in the protasis, but to find it in the apodosis, as in Shakespeare, is obsolete.) Wareh 03:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

We can have the prescriptivism debate or not, but certainly "If I would have..." and "I wish I would have..." do not appear in well-edited publications, lectures, etc. The expressions "make sense," since you've observed speakers using them to communicate. See further counterfactual conditional. Wareh 16:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Call me a prescripitivist if you like, but I see it as a confusion as to where the subjunctive is most appropriate. "If I had come earlier, this wouldn't have happened" is OK. "If I would've come earlier, this wouldn't have happened", and certainly "If I had've come earlier, this wouldn't have happened" are not found in well-edited publications. JackofOz 00:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 10

[edit] ENGLISH TO COPTIC..PLEASE

Can anyone translate english to coptic?

"TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE" or something that would mean something similar? not sure if its from the bible... thankyou. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.29.114.186 (talk) 07:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

(It's from Hamlet, Act I. Scene III:

This above all: to thine ownself be true,

And it must follow, as the night the day,

Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Skarioffszky 10:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC))

Coptic is a dead language, and there are only a relatively small number of professional ancient-language scholars and priests of the Egyptian Coptic church who would have a good chance of giving a correct answer, and the odds are against any of them happening to hang out here. If you're the same one who was asking about Egyptian several months ago, then I still think getting tattoos in other languages is a bad idea unless you can have a high degree of confidence that what you're getting etched into your flesh is actually correct (ideally, you should know why it's correct...). AnonMoos 14:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course, unlike Asian exoticists in the West who get Chinese character tattoos whose meanings are perhaps not what they intended, if someone gets a Coptic tattoo, the changes of an embarassing situation ensuing when someone who knows the language sees the tattoo is vanishingly small, so who cares, right? Nohat 08:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Crossing the bar"

Meanings and origins, please

Ships leaving a river-mouth or bay usually have to cross a sandbar or bank of silt, so 'crossing the bar' means leaving shelter/harbour for the open sea. Tennyson's poem uses it as a metaphor for dying.--HJMG 23:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The OED says 'bar' can mean "A bank of sand, silt, etc., across the mouth of a river or harbour, which obstructs navigation.". Their earliest example is from 1586 when Dublin is described as a "barred" harbour.--HJMG 23:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

See also: Crossing the Bar. -THB 00:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It could also be a variation on "crossing the line", which means "going too far". StuRat 12:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 11

[edit] Classical and Modern Greek?

How intelligible are the 2, if at all? thank you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Moffo (talk • contribs).

A speaker of Modern Greek would not be able to understand Classical Greek without undertaking a specific course of study, if that is what you mean. Clio the Muse 00:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

This same question was asked a couple of weeks ago. See the archived answers: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2006_November_24#Classical_and_Modern_Greek. Wareh 02:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] J in 4th position

I was playing Scrabble the other day, and had the chance to get a Triple Word Score. The letter J was 3 letters away from the Triple Word Score position, and the maximum length of the word was 6 letters. Apart from the fact that I didn't have very good letters, I couldn't think of any word that is no more than 6 letters long and has a J in 4th position. Any ideas? Is there a site I can access to search for words using these sorts of parameters? JackofOz 00:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Banjos. Donjon. Logjam. Trojan. You want a good Crossword Solver. Ziggurat 01:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The /usr/share/dict/words file on the UNIX system I'm using lists 56 uncapitalized words meeting the specification, but only one is a common word, which was just mentioned. The full list is: acajou ajaja avijja banjo benj benjy boojum cadjan canjac chaja cooja cunjah cunjer donjon dooja dorje evejar finjan frijol ganja geejee goujon guijo gunj gurjun hadj hadji inaja jimjam jinja khaja khajur khoja konjak linja linje manjak masjid moujik munj outjet outjut pinjra ponja popjoy prajna punjum sanjak shoji subjee tanjib thujin thujyl tonjon trajet witjar. The list is supposed to be based on "Webster's Second", so it may not include some newer words; the spellings "hadj" and "hadji" (rather than hajj and hajji) strike me as out-of-date. It lists "Trojan" only with a capital, and does not have "logjam" as a single word. Of course this is of no help for Scrabble purposes where one of the official Scrabble dictionaries or some other dictionary is agreed on.

--Anonymous, December 11, 01:29 (UTC).

Excellent answers. "Logjam" and "banjos" are the only words above that would ever have occurred to me - but didn't. "Toejam" also dropped into my head just now. JackofOz 01:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You could always consult a ouija board.--Shantavira 09:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

He he. I'll try that next time I'm playing Scrabble with a medium. JackofOz 03:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why has no-one thought of ninja? СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 03:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old German Word for "tank"

I am trying to confirm that the old German word for "tank" was "schutzengrabenvernichtungsautomobile". I would appreciate any help. Thanks.

I know we Germans are very good at inventing complicated words in bureaucratic contexts, mostly by using compound words like Schützengrabenvernichtungsautomobil (that would be be a correct singular form), but I've never heard of that word, and the German Panzer article has nothing about it. Google's search results make me believe it's just a joke by someone who wanted to invent a funny German word for tank. --Dapete^ばか 09:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree; it seems absurdly complicated, especially as those Germans who first saw tanks would be ordinary front line soldiers. For them Panzerkampfwagen would be a more exact description. Clio the Muse 09:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Pre WWII german tank AV7 is referred to as Sturmpanzerwagen, or Schwerer Kampfwagen in pages I have found. Can't discount the above long name though.

Looking at A7V quote "..name is probably derived from the Allgemeines Kriegsdepartement 7 Abteilung Verkehrswesen ("General War Department 7, Branch Transportation")" and In German the tank was called Sturmpanzer-Kraftwagen (roughly "assault armoured motor vehicle"). Given that a web search for "schutzengraben........." turns up next to nothing I'd guess it's a made up 'cod-german' name; though if it were correct it would seem to refer to the British Mark I tank rather than any home grown vehicle since the A7V doesn't seem very good at crossing trenches..87.102.44.80 18:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aranzabal

Does anyone know where the surname "Aranzabal" originates from? Thanks. 24.254.92.184 07:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's Basque. This website has some information but doesn't appear to be particularly authoritative. -THB 10:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What language used in mid/late 20th C. Skopje?

I have an undated, post-WWII photograph of the gates to a Jewish cemetery in Skopje (formerly Yugoslavia, now Republic of Macedonia).

Underneath the Hebrew text are the words in block letters: " IZRAELITSЌO POKOPALIŠČE " (the diacritics being my best guess). My questions:

What language is this?
What does the text mean?

-- Many thanks, Deborahjay 07:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Pokopališče is Slovene for "cemetery", which is kind of surprising for Skopje. "Ќ" is not a letter in modern Slovene, but if the diacritic is wrong, it might be Slovene for Israelite - a word most often used in those days as a synonym for Jewish. "Jewish cemetery" is the logical translation, and Slovene the most likely language. --Diderot 08:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the mark at the upper left of the capital letter "K" is indistinct in the photo. Your suggested translation is excellent for the context. As for the Slovene, I'm captioning this "a regional language, possibly Slovene." Hope that's suitable... and I note with appreciation your remark about "Israelite" for "Jewish" -- a bane too often treated literally (as though a cognate) in irresponsible translations to English. Thanks! Deborahjay 09:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It was written in Macedonia, therefore its Macedonian language. If you look at the Macedonian alphabet you will see it has the letter Ќ. While it is strange that its written in Latin script (rather than Cyrilic) its not unheard of as can be seen in Romanisation of Macedonian. Shinhan 10:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Shinhan, I've updated my (conveniently electronic) text accordingly. It's likely to be some time before I might be able to confirm further details about the history of this sign. -- Deborahjay 10:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it can be Macedonian. "Ќ" is a Cyrillic letter - it's not present in Macedonian transliterations. Besides, I can't find any reference to pokopališče as a word for "cemetery" in Macedonian. The only words I can find for it in Macedonian are cognate to the south Slavic root globl- or to the Turkish mezar-. It wasn't until after WWII that Macedonian was codified as a language different from western dialects of Bulgarian, and Bulgarian has never been written with the Roman alphabet, so a pre-WWII inscription in Macedonian is pretty unlikely. It is odd to find Slovene so far south, and I'd consider Serbo-Croatian plausible if pokopališče is a rare or archaic word for cemetery in Serbo-Croatian. It's possible because pokopati is, I think, the perfective of "to bury" in Serbo-Croatian. But I think it's unlikely that it's Macedonian. -- Diderot 11:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Your remarks are most convincing, Diderot, in light of the limited information available. Perhaps the Skopje Jewish community (whose cemetery this is) might have been an enclave of immigrants from neighboring countries at some point, thus speaking and writing another language besides or instead of the local Macedonian. (Similar to the various first-generation immigrant subcultures in my own Western Galilee, who retain their homeland's language along with their acquired Hebrew even in quasi-official community usage.) -- Thanks, Deborahjay 12:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely Slovenian, but I don't have any explanation how it got to Skopje (are you positive it's Skopje?) There were numerous Slovenian refugees to Serbia during WWII, so it might be a reason, but I'm wild-guessing. Diacritic on "Ќ" should not be there — maybe a damage on the inscription or photo? The only reference I googled for "Izraelitsko Pokopalisce" is the one in Nova Gorica; another one says that the one in Gorica is "the only preserved Jewish Cemetery in Slovenia". Duja► 10:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drug eluting stents

This user has indicated that they would prefer serious answers and may require references. Please refrain from frivolous responses to their question.

The above template is included to publicize the new template now available by typing:

My question is about the name of this medical device. I believe "elute" means "to remove (adsorbed material) from an adsorbent by means of a solvent". Therefore, the stent does not "elute" drugs, but, rather, the blood "elutes" the drug from the stent. Do you agree that this is an incorrect usage ? I think "drug coated stent" is much more clear. StuRat 13:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If you don't mind some feedback on the wording: do you actually mean "avoid", or perhaps rather (what I'd suggest) "refrain from"...? -- Deborahjay 13:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point, would "avoid adding" also work ? StuRat 16:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably - I think I see your point, that it's preferable for colloquial language. Good going with the template! Deborahjay 21:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but I didn't create it, I'm just helping to publicize it. StuRat 22:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Back to your question. I agree with you. The wording is not descriptive of the stent, so it may have been coined as a description of the drug delivery system - a "drug eluting system" (system = artery + stent + coating + blood) being one where drug is eluted from the stent by the blood. My own opinion is that it is too late to change that, and one would probably have to go along with general usage for the title of the article. I have heard one talk about how the stent elutes the drug into the blood stream and the blood vessel wall, a case of a person knowing very well what they are talking about, but not necessarily what they are saying. And it sounds so much more high-tech to say "eluting" (cool 'n classy like chromatography) than it is to say "coated" (boring like barn door paint) or "medicated" (plain like pimple cream). And high tech sells, so the makers and advertisers (including doctors) will likely continue abusing the language. The companies and their advertisers probably thought a lot about that. I would suggest that the technically correct names and the meaning of elute be given somewhere. My question would be: If one leaves the article title as it is, would redirects for the alternative names be necessary? -- Seejyb 22:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I hate needlessly complex terminology with a passion, myself, or should I call myself a "complexificationaphobe" ? :-) StuRat 03:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] first verse of French poem that begins, "quand vous serez veille et decrepit" by whom?.

quand je seris vielle et decrepit

I think Pierre de Ronsard is the person you are looking for. An English poem that goes like that is by Yeats [3]. --thunderboltz^(Deepu) 14:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the Ronsard sonnet you mean is this one. (No decrepitude per se here, but I consider it less likely you're looking for this Bernard Joyet lyric "Vivez, prenez de la bouteille, / Rev'nez quand vous serez bien vieille, / Ridée, décrépite, édentée, / Ça peut m'tenter..." For more, click on "quelques textes" here.) Wareh 22:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] what does this mean?

I recently bought a needlepoint of this saying, and am curious as to what it says and in which language:

Dankeno ruckwarts mutig vorwarts glaubig aufwarts

you may email me at: <removed to protect you from Spam>—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.187.0.72 (talk • contribs).

I think that there are some typos and that it should be

Dankend rückwärts

mutig vorwärts

gläubig aufwärts

It is German, and it means "Thanking (thankfully) backward, courageously forward, faithfully (devoutly) upward". It seems to be a proverb. Marco polo 16:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The implied verb with those expressions is something like, "Let us look" or "We ought to look." Wareh 22:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] english

what is the opossite of eagle? i mean if eagle is a male then what would be his female.

Both sexes are eagles. Sexes of birds tend not to be differentiated by name except in game birds or poultry, where this is of more significance to people, but female birds of ~~any~~ most species can be termed hens.--Shantavira 18:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Shantavira, according to the eagles article, they're ALL male. Apparently for eagle, they're just called male and female, not even hens for females: see [4] -THB 21:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

OK Take It Easy, I'm a New Kid in Town.--Shantavira 09:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You guys and your puns; One of These Nights you'll Take It to the Limit and wind up as Reference Desk Desperados, though I Can't Tell You Why.---62.65.129.85 10:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Everyone just Get Over It. -THB 10:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

There's going to be a Heartache Tonight if this continues! Though maybe in The Long Run it'll be better for everyone. - Taxman ^Talk 19:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've got to get out of this place, if it's the last thing I ever do. :) JackofOz 23:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, you blew the theme. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. You're coming down to the station. - Taxman ^Talk 03:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Farsi script translation

Hi all,

Although I have put in hours of internet search time, I have yet to find a good source showing the Persian last name "Shirazi" written in Farsi. I'm curious if anyone here can help, or at least offer a redirect to a better source of information. In addition, written Farsi often operates like cursive in English (to the best of my knowledge), with several letters being written continuously, connected together. This has been the main point of difficulty for me. "Shirazi" is my last name (I'm half-Persian, but can't read/write Farsi), and I would love to finally have a reliable source for what this would look like in said script. Thanks in advance... -Matt128.138.114.149 22:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Shirazi is a family name of Hafez (poet). Cutting and pasting from there: شیرازی

The spacing may not look quite right in your browser. Note that Persian is written from right to left. "Hafez Shirazi" is written more artistically in this image (everything from the long, wavy, horizontal-ish stroke, and on to the left is "Shirazi"). Also see this street sign (the largest-printed word, blue against white, is "Shirazi"). Wareh 00:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Wareh, thank you so much. The version in calligraphy is exactly what I was looking for. Not to be too demanding, but would you (or anyone else) have further examples of Shirazi in calligraphic Farsi? -Matt

Well, here's the email contact form for a Persian calligrapher whose name is Shirazi. Try dropping him a line and telling him about your dream to see the name you guys share in lovely lettering...? Wareh 03:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again, Wareh. I really appriciate your effort. I will try to contact the calligrapher you tracked down, and see what he can do for me... some of his work might make an amazing Christmas (or norouz!) gift for my dad... I really appriciate it. -Matt 128.138.230.137 05:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] arawakan online language dictionary

I'm looking for an online arawak language translation dictionary i'm particularly interested in finding the word fashion in arwak translation--Hnives 23:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)Hnives

"Arawak" covers a lot of ground, most of it cemetery ground. Different tribes were grouped under that label, and most of them died out before any kind of modern documentation about them existed. The Taíno are the only ones to have made it into the industrial age. There is a Taíno dictionary online at taino-tribe.org, but it's pretty thin. --Diderot 16:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bye vs. Cya

Why is it that in the realm of instant messaging and SMS-ing, that a simple "bye" is considered ruder than vs its derivitaves (ie: Buh Bye, ttyl, cya, etc.)? Who establishes chatroom etiquettes? 61.5.56.28 23:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's ruder, however, not using "cya" or derivatives implies that the user might not talk to the recipient again. --W o o ty Woot? contribs 23:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that without the benefit of inflection, "bye" sounds very abrupt, like it's coming at the end of a fight or something. "Buh bye" gets around that by adding an extra, softer syllable. As for who sets etiquette... no one in particular. It just sort of emerges, in my opinion. —Seqsea (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Is "bye" considered ruder? If someone said "buh bye" to me, I would think of the SNL sketch, where the phrase is quite rude. So... which chat rooms and whose SMSs are we talking about? In fact, I would also consider "cya" ruder than "see ya" and even "ttyl" more coloquial than "later!" (though not rude). Perhaps, because "bye" is a preset message on some phones? Or that most of the other phrases are longer than "bye"? — vijay (Talk) 01:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Bye, as in as its own sentence at the end of an SMS or instant messaging, (windows Live, Yahoo, etc.) A rough outline of the SMS from my friend was "ga tak megerti maksudmu. aq akn pergi makan.bye" (I don't understand your meaning. I am going to go eat. Bye.) My phone deletes SMS's after a day (tiny memory, this thing is probably from 98 or something like that), so I don't have the exact sms. I want to explain to her why I got the impression she was mad at me. Maybe its just a location or personal preference for bye, however. Aku tak tahu. Crisco 1492 09:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 12

[edit] idealogy v ideology

In some dictionaries, "idealogy" is listed as a varient of "ideology." Does anyone know if this is British usage, or where it comes from? Would "idealogy" be kosher for use on Wikipedia? Would "ideology" be prefered? My instinct says to prefer "ideology" if for no other reason than to avoid having others constantly changing it due to a preceived typographical error. — vijay (Talk) 01:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess you could leave an HTML comment explaining the spelling ;) — vijay (Talk) 01:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

What's the point of using rare, alternative variants for words? I can't see the point of using alternate words without any reason behind them (i.e. semantic differences, etc.)... 惑乱分からん 01:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Especially variants whose spellings are due to morphological misanalysis, like miniscule. Nohat 08:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, and "whilst". I can't figure out why anybody says that. "Anyhoo", too. -GTBacchus^(talk) 08:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Whilst I find myself wondering what's wrong with 'whilst', I've never heard of 'idealogy' and can't find it in a couple of British dictionaries that I've tried. (btw my Collins dictionary says 'whilst' is "chief Brit." --Dweller 08:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"Idealogy" is probably based on the spelling of the word "idea" (but that's not how ancient Greek compounding happened to work, so technically it's considered incorrect...). AnonMoos 19:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Or even "ideal". 惑乱分からん 21:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "She" as "it"

So, why does English use the pronoun "she" to refer to inanimate objects? Tito xd^(?!?) 01:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This user has indicated that they would prefer serious answers and may require references. Please refrain from frivolous responses to their question.

It doesn't usually. Boats are a common exception that are often refered to as "she". Rmhermen 02:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

See She. Seamen love their boats. See grammatical gender and noun class. Many languages have gendered nouns, English may be in the minority in that most nouns are not gendered. -THB 03:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I saw the article, but since it doesn't have any references, I couldn't use it, and came and asked the question here. Tito xd^(?!?) 03:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

There are detailed discussions in some of the larger early 20th-century grammars (i.e. Jespersen) etc. Other than in a few special cases, it's mostly an antiquated literary affectation by now -- and it has little to do with the grammatical gender found in languages such as French, Spanish, German etc. AnonMoos 03:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I second AnonMoos - using "she" to refer to inanimate object is a sign of affection and personification of said object, and has little to do with grammar. Since most nouns in English are genderless, you can theoretically use any pronoun (he, she, it) to replace them, although "it" would be most correct while the other two imply that you are attributing some form of person-like characteristic to the object. Men seem to do this more often than women, in my experience, usually when referring to big, noise-making things (cars, motorcycles, ships...) ;-) — QuantumEleven 21:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

English has no gender as others have noted. He can also get used for inanimate objects when they are being personified. But you wanted references. Jespersen is good as already noted. Also, take a look at Michael Barlow's A situated theory of agreement (1992) published by Garland and available in academic libraries for a theory of how agreement works as a semantic resource. It kind of takes the mystery away from the issue. mnewmanqc 03:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I Like to See it Lap the Miles by Emily Dickinson

hey everyone. does anyone know what the poem "I like to see it lap the miles" by Emily Dickinson is about. i know it's about a train with the metaphor of a horse, but does anyone know anything beyond that. thanks!

-anon.

See [5] which incidently comes up first when Googling the title. Nice concise analysis. -THB 10:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there a {{homework}} tag? =) doktorb _words^deeds 14:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

yes, {{dyoh}} Shinhan 11:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word for a person who has a love for teaching

I've been thinking about prefixes and suffixes lately for some reason, and this particular word has eluded me. You know how the suffix "-iphile" is used to indicate that someone has a love for something (like a "bibliophile," or a person who has a love for books)? What is the word for someone who has a love for teaching? I was under the impression that "-ped" was the proper prefix for something like this ("pedagogue," "pedantic") but that doesn't work for obvious reasons. :) Thanks! --pie4all88 13:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Aahh, actually, the ped-root in all of these words seem to be derived from the greek word for "child", while the "-agog" might be derived from Greek "agein" (to lead). "Pedantic" is from an Italian mangling... 惑乱分からん 14:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

All these philia and phobia terms come from Greek, e.g., hydrophilia is a love of water. The Greek for "water" is hydor (as a prefix it becomes hydro-), and -philia (the suffix) is Greek for "liking" or "friendship". The Greek for "teacher" is didaskale or daskalos ("teach"), so it's very probably didaskalophilia or daskalophilia. Note I have no references to back this up, as I couldn't find any use of the word. The second one sounds better, but then ease of pronounciation has never been a concern with some of these constructions. Fear of teachers would therefore be daskalophobia. Proto::► 16:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I would think that didaskalophilia would be a love of teachers. Apparently, "didaxis" (root "didak-" or "didac-" in the more usual Latin transliteration) means teaching. Wouldn't a love of teaching be more like didacophilia? Marco polo 16:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good too. I'm not sure there's a definitive answer. Proto::► 17:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, thanks a lot for the help here, guys. Great job coming up with these answers! --Pie4all88 02:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The best-known English derivative of "didaxis" must be "didactic", which suggests "didactophile". Going back to the pedagogy root, one could also make "pedagogophile" (or in Britain, "paedogogophile" — although in a country where some of the yobs don't know a paedophile from a paediatrician, I think I'd want to avoid that one). There are a few Google hits on each of these and/or their corresponding -philia nouns; I have not checked any dictionaries to see if any of them is considered an established usage. --Anonymous, December 13, 02:15 (UTC).

My expertise is in Greek, not in English word-formation, but I'm dubious about all these suggestions & about the likelihood of success with this approach. You can find a word with active teaching connotations (say, paideusis, or maybe didache), but as soon as it's compounded with -philia, I think you're implying "love of teaching [performed by someone else]." Philomathy is the only English word with -phil- that really seems to mean "love of DOING X" (none of the -philias is close). Even in this case, the word implies love of something external to the lover, and expressions relating "teaching" to a person tend to drift in this direction, referring to someone else's teaching, which is effectively passive not active (Herodotus says someone speaks ek didaches, "as a result of instruction [by someone else]" = "as instructed"). (Perhaps also "philology" originally meant love of engaging in discourse, but no one seems to understand it that way now; as a Sanskrit professor whose seminars proceeded at a glacial pace once announced, "Philology is the love of a word!" Anyway, I find it hard to cram the didask- stem into this pattern: philodidaxy? philodidachy? If you really need a vaguely Greekish words, these at least seem less to mean the opposite of what's intended.) FWIW, originally didaktikos has the idea of "skilled at teaching" and could certainly characterize a person. Wareh 20:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting! Thanks again for putting so much thought into this, everyone! --pie4all88 08:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish

Can anyone translate this for me please.

"Hasta la vicroire siempre mi amigo!" Ken 15:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably a typo for "Hasta la victoria siempre, mi amigo!" meaning "Until the victory, always, my friend!" (It looks more like the French spelling victoire, strangely enough...) 惑乱分からん 15:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK thanks. Ken 15:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sofa, couch, settee

Of the three words 'sofa', 'couch' and 'settee', which would be considered middle class and which working class in the UK? --Auximines 17:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You could ask the ghost of Nancy Mitford -- see U and non-U English ... AnonMoos 19:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"Couch" was non-U. -THB 20:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I would say that they stand for slightly different things, but just from the perspective of your question, I would say that "settee" is the most pretentious, while "couch" is the least (as well as sounding a bit American). "Sofa" is somewhere in between. — QuantumEleven 21:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm that's funny, because the editor who proofread my book said 'settee' is the least pretentious, and sofa (or chesterfield) is the most. Anchoress 02:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

When faced with a disagreement between a professional editor and QuantumEleven, I would go with the editor! ;-) — QuantumEleven 06:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Lol. I mean it, you actually made me laugh out loud. You are a very classy packet, XI. Anchoress 06:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I find it really hard to believe that anyone would say with a straight face that settee is less pretentious than couch and sofa. I don't believe I've ever encountered anyone using that word in spoken English, but I hear both sofa and couch all the time. I've heard that chesterfield is an old-fashioned term for a sofa that was used around where I am from (Northern California) but I've never heard anyone call a sofa a chesterfield. Nohat 06:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of regional variation in the use of these terms. What is rare or pretentious in northern California could be common and unpretentious in the UK, or vice versa. As for "chesterfield", I understand that this term is in widespread use in Canada. Marco polo 13:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

And then there's davenport ... User:Zoe|(talk) 19:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

My family always called a small couch with only room for two a "love seat", but people have looked at me like I was insane whenever I used the term. And, of course, I am insane (or is that inane ?), but not for that reason. StuRat 03:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Linking L" in Brazilian Portuguese?

In a Brazilian dialect that vocalizes syllable-final /l/ to [w], what happens to word-final /l/ followed by a vowel? In a phrase like "Brasil é um pais...", would the /l/ of "Brasil" still be pronounced as [w], or would it be [l]? --Lazar Taxon 20:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Letter ending: yours

While writing a letter the other day, I started thinking: what does the closing phrase "yours," (which I'm guessing is a shortened and perhaps more informal version of "your truly," or "yours sincerely,") actually mean? It seems a very strange thing to write when I think about it, in a way implying either ownership or devotion... but since I'm not an English native speaker, I was hoping someone might be able to help me....? — QuantumEleven 21:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

See: Business letter particularly the "closing" section. You are guessing correctly, and "Yours truly" is an abbreviation for the more florid closings formerly used, such as "I remain, truly yours, etc." -THB 21:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, THB. However, I'm still a bit fuzzy on the actual meaning of "yours," (or, if you want, "I remain, yours truly,") - I guess I'm just curious as to the origins of this phrase. Does anyone have any ideas? — QuantumEleven 21:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Shortening of former phrases common in 18th century and earlier, such as "Your most humble servant", etc. AnonMoos 21:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dramatic vs. Theatrical qualities

What is the difference between dramatic qualities as opposed to theatrical qualities in the context of me attempting to analyse the last scene of "The Winter's Tale"? I cannot remember for the life of me and I'm getting all mixed up in my answer and my notes are due in tomorrow :S Thanks! Farosdaughter 22:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm no expert (and am unfamiliar with "The Winter's Tale") but I can offer an idea: theatrical may have to do with elements of staging the play; dramatic would include the tensions between characters, plot development, etc. Good luck! -- Deborahjay 03:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 13

[edit] Book Review

I would like to have someone to explain the steps on how to do a book review. Thanks.

The second External Link at the article Book review is a nice guide. -THB 00:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IPA Starter

For someone who is a mature native English speaker who never took much interest (or found the need to) in pronunciation guides, what's the best way to start understanding what all those symbols mean? I've read the IPA article and I've seen lists and lists of how to pronounce each symbol, but they all seem very daunting and not 'user friendly', the reason I've avoided it in the 1st place. Is there a beginners guide, an IPA 101? Vespine

The minimum amount of IPA you need to know would probably be the set of symbols used to describe one language, such as English. I would start with IPA chart for English and Pronunciation respelling for English, which compares IPA with the system used in dictionaries you may be familiar with. Nohat 02:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Try these websites for a start:

There's no need to memorize lots of them. If you bookmark the ucla chart, you can just reference it when you need to. Many have similar values to the corresponding English letters, and it's pretty obvious when they don't. Nevertheless, you might want to learn a few of the more prominent ones: like ʃ,ʒ,ʋ,ɘ,ɛ,ɑ,θ, to name about half the "common funny looking ones for English". If you remember just two or three a day, you'll have all you need in a week. I still don't know them all, and I've been in this business for years. Thing is, I don't know the ones I don't need to know. I can always look at and listen to that nifty ucla list! Thank god for Peter Ladefoged mnewmanqc 03:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. You only need to know a few for English, and you can always look them up when unsure. For example, searching for ɛ will lead you to ɛ which leads to open-mid front unrounded vowel, which links to an audio sample, Open-mid front unrounded vowel.ogg (help·info). --Kjoonlee 04:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Synonym

Hi, What's another (preferably simpler) word for slating? It's usage is here:

The law defined the children of slaves as a type of indentured servant, while slating them for eventual freedom

Thanks.NinaEliza 04:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Listing? Marking? Scheduling? JackofOz 04:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you:)NinaEliza 04:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess it's important to note that the verb slate usually has the sense of schedule in American English, but the sense of criticize in British English. Nohat 04:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I used schedule, so that worked out. Thanks for the clarification.NinaEliza 06:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unidentified Soup

In Stewie Griffin: The Untold Story, in the red-carpet scene at the beginning, Tricia Takanawa mentions some kind of soup while humping David Bowie's leg. In the commentary (beginning of scene 14), Alex Borstein says it's some unpleasant-tasting (possibly Asian) soup, the name of which sounds vaguely like 'fish-mao' or 'fish-bao', something like that. Anybody have any idea what it is? Black Carrot 06:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

According to the subtitles, it's "fish bowel soup", which sounds vile. Proto::► 11:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please help define Hindi/Sanskrit word

I read a word in, I believe, "Hinduism for Dummies" or "An Idiot's Guide to Hinduism"...the word is "Akriti".

The definition had to do with "love without origin". I loved what I read and would like to know if this is a real word and have an accurate definintion. I have not been able to find an occurrencew of this word anywhere else.

"Akriti" has become very symbolic for me and I would like to be using it accurately. I have a great deal of interest in and respect for Sanskrit and stumbled on "akriti" in my research of that language.

Please advise in any way possible.

I appreciate your help.

Cathy

On pages 27 and 28 of this document, "akriti" is defined to mean something like "inner form" or "essence" in Sanskrit. According to this source, the word does not refer (directly) to a kind of love. I myself, however, have no knowledge of Sanskrit and can't assess the accuracy of this source. Marco polo 16:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon agrees: AkRti (IAST ākṛti) means "a constituent part... form, figure, shape, appearance, aspect... a well-formed shape... kind, species... specimen..." —Keenan Pepper 19:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Cappelers dictionary (on the same project) agrees, and adds a definition of beauty, which is probably similar to the well-formed shape definition in the Monier Williams definition which the Cologne lexicon gives. Just if you're interested the word would be spelled आकृति and you can read our article Sanskrit that shows there is some variation on the pronunciation of the "r" sound. That character is ऋ and shows up as the small half loop form when connected to a consonant. So while, the dictionary definition doesn't really match the religious one you've given, but that doesn't mean it's wrong exactly, just an additional interpretation perhaps. - Taxman ^Talk 00:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where is the Stremnaya Road, and what does "stremnaya" mean?

To the Wikipedia Volunteer Reference Staff:

A previous attempt to post this question failed. Hopefully, this will succeed.

I received an email from an in-law from South America that had an email attachment (*.ppt file) of what was purported to be the Stremnaya Road in Bolivia. This seemed an odd name for a road in South America, as it appears to be Russian. I have little knowledge of the Russian language, but know some Spanish, which it definitely has no association with. The pictures of the road are enough to make anyone with fear of heights cringe. Unfortunately, there was no link in the email I received of this Powerpoint presentation, but there are some blogs on the Internet regarding it. There seems to be wide disagreement on where the road is located. Some think it is in China, which would make more sense from its name. Others declare they have traveled it, and it is, in fact, in Bolivia. What would clinch where it is really located is a closeup of the license plates of the many trucks that travel it.

I did a Google search on "Stremnaya Road". The top hits are currently for web sites are claiming that the picture distributed under that name is in fact of the Guoliang Tunnel road in China. I know nothing about it myself. --Anonymous, December 13, 23:27 (UTC).

[edit] Where is the Stremnaya Road? Is it in Bolivia? What does "stremnaya" mean?

To the Wikipedia Volunteer Reference Staff:

A previous attempt to post this question failed. Hopefully, this will succeed.

There seems to be wide disagreement on where the road is located. Some think it is in China, which would make more sense from its name. Others declare they have traveled it, and it is, in fact, in Bolivia. What would clinch where it is really located is a closeup of the license plates of the many trucks that travel it, and/or some of the people.

I did try to find reference to this in Wikipedia, but the feedback was nil.

I also tried to login under "a_ruminor", but was unsuccessful, so I created a new account using "Al Ruminor". The "A Ruminor" username was stated to be too close to the one I attempted to login under. I believe I posted something about a year ago under "a_ruminor" or "A Ruminor" concerning a Colombian airliner crash which took place around 1997, so at one time I did have an account. Please delete the other account if you can authorize that.

If you wish to contact me, my email is [removed for protection against spambots] I could reply with an attachment of the *.ppt file in response. Please do not provide my email address on Wikipedia and keep it private for this purpose alone.

Thanks for any help.

Best regards, Al Ruminor 23:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC) Aldous Ruminor

Well you should keep checking back with those blogs. This one was updated since you first posted, and it identifies the pics as The Guiliang Tunnel, check the last few entries of the blog for other links besides the one I posted. Is that sufficient? Anchoress 03:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's another good link: Mistery (sic) solved and another: results of google search on the dictionary definition of Stremnaya Anchoress 03:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 14

[edit] Wikipedia tutorial on spotting/eliminating redundant words

Dear ref-desk experts, I know this page is in the Wikipedia somewhere, having visited it last week, but after half an hour's search today I can't seem to find it. Link please?

Many thanks, susato 02:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a: redundancy exercises I think that is what you are asking for.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 12:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Words to avoid, Avoid weasel words, Avoid peacock terms, or Avoid trite expressions? Then again, there's Embrace weasel words too.---Sluzzelin 12:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Birgitte§β that's it exactly - Thanks Sluzzelin, those links will be helpful as well. susato 13:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parts of Speech

Please identify the underlined word as a noun, adjective, adverb, or etc.:

Holly's hope chest is made entirely of Oak.

My teacher says "Oak" in this sentence is an adjective, but I don't understand why. Is she right? I could have sworn it was a noun. Could someone explain to me why it is an adjective? Thanks for the help. --72.69.145.238 03:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Your teacher is wrong. "Oak" is a noun in that sentence. However, I think it would be an adjective if the sentence were "Holly's hope chest in oak." Am I right? --Maxamegalon2000 03:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

She briefly said that it was an adjective because it was describing the type of chest it was. "What kind of chest? An Oak chest!" This doesn't really seem right to me though, so I wanted some more opinions. Keep the responses coming! --72.69.145.238 03:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Please realize that many stupid people do become teachers. Don't argue. Just know that you are right, but for the sake of your grades regurgitate back the lies she tells you. --Nelson Ricardo 05:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the other contributors, your teacher is wrong. "Oak" would have been an adjective if it had been used like this: "Holly's hope oak chest...", but in the sentence you gave us it is definitely a noun. My sentence, incidentally, fulfills the "What kind of chest? An Oak chest!" argument your teacher used. And I would respectfully disagree with Nelson Ricardo, I think you should argue with your teacher, present your case and don't give in so easily. Good luck! — QuantumEleven 11:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not an adjective in either case. In "Holly's hope chest is made entirely of oak," it's definitely a noun. You couldn't replace it with an adjective - "Holly's hope chest is made entirely of woody." In "It's an oak chest!" it's a noun adjunct - a noun which modifies another noun. I don't think there are any ways you can use the word "oak" that it isn't a noun. 13:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

...unless it was an oaken chest. That would be an adjective.--Shantavira 15:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Or

what does the French word "or" mean, not in the sense of gold.

but Sashafklein 05:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

you should check out wordreference.com for single word translations. Sashafklein 05:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Also in Google, define: WORD -- Deborahjay 06:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Or even Wiktionary. --Diderot 07:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] off of

Is "off of" considered correct English in the US? For example Their name comes from a track off of Syd Barrett's album "Barrett." --Auximines 11:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I consider it correct. Certainly it's something native speakers say all the time. I'd have used "on" in place of "off of" in this sentence though, but that is probably mostly a matter of personal style. --Diderot 12:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

We native speakers may say it all the time, but constructions accepted in informal spoken language aren't necessarily appropriate for use on paper. "Off of" may have originated as a parallel construction to the correct "out of". IMHO "off of" is not acceptable in a wikipedia article. In Auxmines' example above, "on" is a fine substitute. When "off of" is used to indicate removal of a physical object or information, as in "They broke branches off of a dead tree for firewood" or "You can copy the problems off of the blackboard", a good substitute would be "from".susato 13:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If you ban "off of", will you also ban "into", "out of", "out from under" (e.g "The cat came out from under the sofa.") etc. etc.? AnonMoos 13:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It would depend on context, but those are considered acceptable standard words/constructions. English prescriptive grammar doesn't have to be consistant. Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 13:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

What I really don't like are opposing juxtapositions, such as "she rode off on her bike" or "he went out in the rain", but these are perfectly correct grammatically speaking.--Shantavira 15:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"Off of" is technically okay, but is very ugly. Almost as bad as "should of" (which is both technically and aesthetically wrong) and "had had", which fills me with rage. Proto::► 16:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] tow, row

Hiya. We're trying to translate The British Grenadiers into German, and the question came up what With a tow, row, row, row, row, row, to the British Grenadiers might actually mean (since afaik Grenadieers hardly ever row). Is it purely nonsensical or is there some semantic value to it? --Janneman 15:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of Adum (Kumasi, Ghana)

I need to know how to prononunce Adum, an area (?) located in the city of Kumasi, Ghana. It would help to have this in IPA notation. Thanks! -- Deborahjay 16:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brother's Wife

What is a brother's wife called in English

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Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

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Contents

[edit] December 6

[edit] Polish Translation

[edit] greek language

[edit] Abiento

[edit] God rest ye merry gentlemen

[edit] Pronunciation of "J"

[edit] Did I?

[edit] Origin of the name Cabragh? Do you think it is a corruption of Gabragh?

[edit] How would you translate this from Polish to English?

[edit] "scrubs" meaning operating theater dress.

[edit] Forms of Poetry

[edit] The Catcher in the rye

[edit] December 7

[edit] Which Songs Are These?

[edit] Need to know how to say this phrase in Choctaw

[edit] cherokee language

[edit] translation help?

[edit] Native speakers

[edit] Latin translation request

[edit] Serbo-Croatian or ??

[edit] 'Third party'

[edit] Skipping "on" in sentences

[edit] Question about "st" in German , in words like "ist" en bist"

[edit] help

[edit] A multitude of grammar issues

[edit] December 8

[edit] Saying originator

[edit] No longer an insult

[edit] Do it yourself

[edit] racial or slang terms

[edit] Query regarding language

[edit] December 9

[edit] Grammar question

[edit] December 10

[edit] ENGLISH TO COPTIC..PLEASE

[edit] "Crossing the bar"

[edit] December 11

[edit] Classical and Modern Greek?

[edit] J in 4th position

[edit] Old German Word for "tank"

[edit] Aranzabal

[edit] What language used in mid/late 20th C. Skopje?

[edit] Drug eluting stents

[edit] first verse of French poem that begins, "quand vous serez veille et decrepit" by whom?.

[edit] what does this mean?

[edit] english

[edit] Farsi script translation

[edit] arawakan online language dictionary

[edit] Bye vs. Cya

[edit] December 12

[edit] idealogy v ideology

[edit] "She" as "it"

[edit] I Like to See it Lap the Miles by Emily Dickinson

[edit] Word for a person who has a love for teaching

[edit] Spanish

[edit] sofa, couch, settee

[edit] "Linking L" in Brazilian Portuguese?

[edit] Letter ending: yours

[edit] Dramatic vs. Theatrical qualities

[edit] December 13

[edit] Book Review

[edit] IPA Starter

[edit] Synonym

[edit] Unidentified Soup

[edit] Please help define Hindi/Sanskrit word

[edit] Where is the Stremnaya Road, and what does "stremnaya" mean?

[edit] Where is the Stremnaya Road? Is it in Bolivia? What does "stremnaya" mean?

[edit] December 14

[edit] Wikipedia tutorial on spotting/eliminating redundant words

[edit] Parts of Speech

[edit] Or

[edit] off of

[edit] tow, row

[edit] Pronunciation of Adum (Kumasi, Ghana)

[edit] Brother's Wife

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