Talk:Reaver (Firefly)

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Contents 1 Merge with "Reavers (Firefly)" 2 Reaver population percentage 3 Fan speculation about Pax operation 4 Clarification? 5 Sourcing and footnotes 6 Origins 7 Image placement

[edit] Merge with "Reavers (Firefly)"

I have reverted the redirection of this article to Reavers (Firefly) for two reasons:

1. Unless a noun is always plural, its use as a title should be singular (Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Prefer singular nouns). Since one can speak of a "Reaver", the singular is correct.
2. Regardless of which title is correct, one should not simply change an article with a significant edit history to a redirect to another article. The two articles should be merged into the correctly titled article, and the edit history of the eventual redirected title should be posted on the talk page of the finished merged article.

I've therefore added merge tags to both articles and posted appropriate notes on both talk pages. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:13, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. —Josiah Rowe 03:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, sounds like a good idea.

The following is the page history from Reavers (Firefly) after the merger, to provide credit for the material originally created there:

• (cur) (last) 13:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC) Kizor (Merging, redirected.)
• (cur) (last) 14:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC) Josiah Rowe m (?Origins)
• (cur) (last) 14:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC) JamesHarrison m (?Origins)
• (cur) (last) 23:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC) Delirium m
• (cur) (last) 20:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC) EurekaLott m
• (cur) (last) 21:44, 4 October 2005 (UTC) EurekaLott m
• (cur) (last) 21:03, 4 October 2005 (UTC) Jeffq (+mergewith "Reaver (Firefly)", correct title per article title policy)
• (cur) (last) 04:36, 4 October 2005 (UTC) Viriditas (Category:Firefly)
• (cur) (last) 04:36, 4 October 2005 (UTC) Viriditas (?Origins - dab Miranda (Firefly))
• (cur) (last) 19:13, 3 October 2005 (UTC) Josiah Rowe m (?Design - rephrasing, spelling)
• (cur) (last) 19:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC) Josiah Rowe (Reaver design by Bernie Wrightson!)
• (cur) (last) 22:17, 1 October 2005 (UTC) Mirv m (Reavers (television series) moved to Reavers (Firefly))
• (cur) (last) 22:15, 1 October 2005 (UTC) Miraculouschaos
• (cur) (last) 22:14, 1 October 2005 (UTC) Miraculouschaos
• (cur) (last) 21:29, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 66.92.16.68 (?Behavior)
• (cur) (last) 20:54, 1 October 2005 (UTC) Miraculouschaos
• (cur) (last) 20:53, 1 October 2005 (UTC) Miraculouschaos
• (cur) (last) 11:28, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 68.225.171.78
• (cur) (last) 03:35, 1 October 2005 (UTC) Mirv m (someone beat me to this, I see :))
• (cur) (last) 01:45, 1 October 2005 (UTC) Hydragon
• (cur) (last) 09:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC) CronoDroid
• (cur) (last) 22:54, 25 July 2005 (UTC) Jugalator m (disambiguate)
• (cur) (last) 21:46, 29 June 2005 (UTC) DocileWalnut m

— Jeff Q (talk) 23:07, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reaver population percentage

At least two attempts have been made to change the Reaver percentage of the population from "0.1%" to "10%". We need to be sure of the facts before we do edits like these. I have reverted the latest edit based on the following passage from the novel:

There are people — not people. About a tenth of a percent had the opposite reaction to the Pax.

"A tenth of a percent" is 1/10 of 1.0%, or 0.1%, not 10%. As far as I've been able to tell so far, the novel corresponds quite closely to many of the quotes from the film, but I'll be catching the film again soon to verify this. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:55, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

The message in the movie did say "(about) a tenth of a percent." --Pentasyllabic 02:47, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Just watched the movie and the movie said 10% Jayteecork 02:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Where, and who said it? I distinctly remember her (the Alliance rescue team member from the recording) saying "a tenth of a percent." Since she was the only person (well, not only... you know what I mean) who actually saw the result of the Pax first-hand, anyone else's statement is merely an estimate, and shouldn't be considered fact. EVula 05:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, folks. I'm getting a little testy about having to repeatedly point this out, so allow me to do it very thoroughly this time. Here is the relevant excerpt from the film, spoken by actress Sarah Paulson, who did such a great job as Merly in American Gothic, but was necessarily underutilized in this film:

Dr. Caron: There's 30 million people here, and they all just let themselves die.

[Everyone jumps at the sound of a brutal attack in the distance.]

Dr. Caron: I have to be quick! About a tenth of a percent of the population had the opposite reaction to the Pax.

I'll say it one more time: "a tenth of a percent" is 1/10 of 1/100, which, for those folks who didn't do so well with fractions in middle-school math, is 1/1000, or 0.1%. If you doubt the actual wording, please watch the DVD and speak the words along with Sarah. You will find that if you try to say "a tenth of the population" (leaving out "of a percent"), or try to say "about ten percent" (5 syllables) instead of "about a tenth of a percent" (8 syllables), your recitation will not be in sync with hers. I would add an audio clip of the relevant passage to Wikipedia using the following license tag:

{{fair use in|audio clip of frequently misquoted passage to support citation}}

but at the moment, my stereo-to-computer connections are screwed up. I don't know how else to make this clear. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

After yet another incorrect correction (this one to "0.01%", or one hundredth of a percent), I finally uploaded a sound clip (Image:Reaver (Firefly).percent.ogg) to provide quick verification by readers (listeners?). I'll add it to the article shortly. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fan speculation about Pax operation

(Fans have speculated that the chemical affected the amygdala or the hypothalamus of the human brain, both of which are known to affect emotions such as aggression and pleasure.)

Fan speculation is verboten in Wikipedia. The above text is delete-bait unless we can find a reliable, verifiable source. (And that does not include fan discussion boards.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 08:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Just because someone added "Fans have speculated" to the beginning of it doesn't mean it should be removed, IMHO. There's the kind of speculation that's 100% speculation (i.e. Wash left Zoe pregnant at the end of Serenity), and the kind that has some factual basis that could possibly warrant inclusion (i.e. the above.) --Pentasyllabic 08:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia wants sources. Speculation is only acceptable if it comes from reliable, published sources. Fans and their blogs and messages boards are not considered reliable sources. The quality of the speculation is totally irrelevant. To quote Wikipedia:Verifiability, "As counter-intuitive as it may seem, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." (Emphaisis in the original.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Alright, if it's official WP policy. --Pentasyllabic 03:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification?

"It also makes them easier to detect, which means that a possible Reaver target has a chance of not being noticed if they power down, rather than flee (which Reavers instantly notice and will pursue)." -- above excerpt from the article. This doesn't make sense the way it is written. How does the Reaver ship being easy to detect affect the chances of someone not being noticed? Does it mean instead that it allows enough time for the target to respond and power down rather than continuing on and appear to be fleeing from the Reavers? Janet13 07:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I rephrased the sentence to make the connection clearer. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing and footnotes

Since we have an ongoing problem with sourcing and improper original research with Firefly and other TV-show articles, I'm working on adding some encyclopedia-quality referencing. I've added some footnotes here that direct readers to the appropriate sources for the article text, especially that which can be confirmed by episode review. I invite everyone to use this Wikipedia:Footnotes system to improve the verifiability of our work on these articles. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins

Someone should add in the information from "Bushwhacked" about the bizzaro proto-reaver the crew encountered.

Those weren't proto-Reaver, those were the Reavers. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis

If by proto-Reaver, you mean the guy who the Reavers left alive but mad (IMDb lists him as "The Survivor"), there is already information about this in the article, including a citation of the episode:

The Reavers do occasionally intentionally leave survivors of their raids, but they drive these survivors mad through forcing them to watch the torture of those they were with, effectively turning them into second-hand Reavers. The Reavers also severely mutilate themselves (i.e., by cutting themselves, peeling off their skin, and/or sticking bits of metal into their flesh).

The suvivor wasn't one of what we now know of as the original Reavers, whose condition was induced pharmacologically, but Mal's monologs on the subject in "Bushwhacked" indicated a belief (his, at least) that Reavers made more Reavers in that manner. It raises the interesting general question of whether and how the original Reavers propagate, and if not, if they will die out on their own over time. However, this is all extrapolation of the material, and analyzing it without outside sources would be original research. We need to stick to what we can cite. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe the things described in "Bushwhacked" look pretty much the same as things on Miranda. After we learn how Reavers actually appeared (from action of Pax), it is very easy to assume that the stranded ship in Bushwhacked underwent the action of Pax, too. Remember - there were no signs of fighting at all, it looked like "everyone has just abandoned the ship" until they found bodies. I believe at the time the episode was written, authors already had the plot of Reavers origin planned, and they probably looked forward to reveal that things in Bushwhacked were the result of the same influence. It is actually very likely that ship was never visited by "outside" reavers, but the bodies were actually mutilated by "The Survivor" himself, who was in the process of becomeing a reaver at the time when Firefly found the ship. Of course, these all are pretty much my own assumptions, but I hope you will agree they are very likely ones. I will not add them since I have no adequate source to cite; however, it may be appropriate to correct the statement int the article: "At least one normal human during the course of the regular series, a victim of a Reaver attack himself, began exhibiting and emulating Reaver behavior. Such converts would not figure significantly in Reaver population because of their rarity and the tendency of the Reavers to booby trap their own former killing grounds." - it just looks too much speculative bearing in mind the possibility of Pax exposition on that ship. --217.146.242.74 16:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW, this article is just asking for pictures --P-Chan 06:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Added one....plange 23:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image placement

I moved Image:Fireflyreaver.jpg so that it's the primary image for the article. Why? For starters, it's a largish picture for the section it has been placed in (Design), causing it to break through into the next section (which looks really ugly; almost as bad as the Reaver itself...).

More importantly, however, it doesn't actually showcase anything about the design of the Reavers. Some concept art would work wonderfully under that section (provided that it was expanded some). Since it is the only picture we have, it would be best used as the top-left image. EVula 14:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

that's fine, can you just change the wording on the rationale for the image?plange 16:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)