Talk:Ralph Bucky Phillips

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This article was nominated for deletion on September 4, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep due to withdrawn nomination.

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[edit] Bias?

Am I the only one who feels this has a very anti-police bias? Also, the order of the article seems counter intuitive. It seems to me that the police behavior should go after the most important parts of the story - shooting three police officers. The story isn't about how NYS police are inefficient, but about a fugitive killing a police officer, isn't it?

Basically, to me it sounds like the article was written by someone on a Seneca reservation.

69.204.173.162 15:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The story was very much about the police until it broke nationally. It's well documented in the local papers. I am working on getting the references. In the timeline, the shootings brought national attention, but the whole folk hero and anti-police feelings in the community were there prior to the shootings of NYS police officers. Corrections let him slide, the parole board didn't confirm sources of infomation, the NYS police wouldn't work with the local sheriff, they mistook a local upstanding kid for Bucky and they shot him. The police mess ups contributed to this getting so out of hand. Your Seneca comment is rather biased, eh? I'm not on the res. I live in Cassadaga and have been following this story since April. (beb)

I just came back to this article, after not checking it for a couple days, and was shocked with all the anti-police bias I found here. The first person who posted in this thread is correct: there should be much more about the shootings of the officers, and much less about the rumors of inappropriate police activity. I am originally from Chautauqua County, and still know a lot of people in the area, and everyone I know was very pleased with how they were treated by the police and were grateful for their actions. Therefore, sentences like this one -- "Residents were more than inconvenienced, they were angry at the intrusion, even fearful of the police due to the shooting of Brad Horton." -- are just false. Perhaps a few people were angry and/or fearful due to the police presence. But I would assume that the majority of the county's residents understood why the police were there and were simply "incovenienced," albeit understandably. Skudrafan1 22:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

That is not true. I live here now. Police were only appreciated after 8/31. Read some of the newspaper articles cited. There's a whole critique of the NYS Police by the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle for not working with local authorities. Go read the Fredonia forums on Topix.net and you can get a feel for the "police state" people here are experiencing. There are two sides to this story, especially when it comes to the shooting of Bradley Horton.

OK, fine. But I still find the article as written now to be completely one-sided and in need of major revamping. I don't think you can speak for the county as a whole. Skudrafan1 22:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

And anyway, Wikipedia is a place for reporting facts, not vague opinion statements like the one I quoted above. Skudrafan1 23:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

They were pointing guns in cars, even at babies in car seats. They'd point first, look second. People were intimidated. There are a lot more incidents of police harassing and being abusive to residents that aren't yet cited here. (beb)

- I'm sure these incidents of which you speak, if they are true at all, were very isolated. Can't we put as much effort into talking about the things Bucky himself did as we apparently are into making the cops look like jerks and incompetent boobs? Skudrafan1 23:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

nope- not isolated-very common. I'm sorry it's so hard for you to believe that which the national news has ignored. Read the New York TImes article. They looked ridiculous. Their militant approach is part of the reason he was on the run so long. They treated us like we were all hiding him. The female NYSP Rebecca Gibbons would yell at us via news camera every night. 30 out of 30 people at my department at work were mad at the police. It was rampant. It's why he got help from local people and why he wasn't captured earlier.

http://journals.aol.com/coldheartfemale/ThinBlueLine/entries/2006/07/15/officer-down-update---dragnet-yields-whimsy-and-dread-upstate/1183

- OK, this is the last thing I'm going to say in this argument. I'm sure someone else will come along and back me up sooner or later. It is obvious you are on a mission to find every article you can which mentions anything about police misbehavior, and that's fine. However, this is not the place to mention every little tidbit you locate. If you're that dedicated, write an essay (or a book) and get it published. Then reference it here. This is an article titled "Ralph Bucky Phillips", not "Police Misbehavior in Chautauqua County During the Ralph Phillips Manhunt." You have made it apparent that the section on the police activity in this article is warranted, but it should be much, much shorter. There needs to be a lot more about Phillips himself and his actions, since he is supposed to be the main focus of the article. Skudrafan1 16:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to skip the argument above and just state I removed most of the biased language, but the article is still in need of cleanup and removed of POV statements. There's a lot of weasel words in the article as whole as well. Zotdragon 21:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

If you minimize the police/media behavior element, you miss the essence of why it got so out of hand. It would be like only talking about the actions of the Branch Davidians and not including all that the FBI did to escalate the situation at Waco. The article will be more accurate if it documents the controversy. On a side note, did any of you know that Geraldo Rivera's producer impersonated Phillips and went into the Fredonia Walmart on Sept 3, asked for Phillip's sister which resulted in 911 being called and the store being evacuated just to get some exciting footage for Geraldo's show. It's unreal what these folks went through.

(REB)

I was under the impression that POV's were also not generally appropriate in the discussion. it does seem that this article is using high impact index words, but that also the reported problems with police are both relevant. They need to be exhaustively presented, since any social scientist will tell you that a person is not just themselves, but a reaction to outside stimulus as well.

Nevertheless, the use of loaded words makes me challenge the neutrality of this article. I haven't done this before, so anyone else? Wikidelphia 02:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

"No news organization has explained how someone who has been incarcerated for the past 20 out of 23 years could have such excellent survival skills, though Phillips could have learned these skills in his youth." That seems VERY loaded, speculative, and irrelevant. Wikidelphia 02:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

So far as I have seen, numerous local media outlets(including, but not limited to, WJET in Erie, The Erie Daily Times, and the local paper in Jamestown, New York) have explained that Bucky was born and raised in this part of the state and was very familiar with the land. Sorry to burst your rather biased bubble, but your statement that "No news organization has explained how someone who has been incarcerated for the past 20 out of 23 years could have such excellent survival skills" is entirely without merit.

As for the shooting of Brad Horton, while your version of events may prove to be correct, you make little to no mention of the police's side of the story. This just smacks of bias.

Your assertion that local residents resented the police presence is wholey untrue. While I have no doubt that there were those who shared your view, the majority was grateful. This was very evident from media reports. I also witnessed it firsthand while I was in Jamestown only a few days before he was caught. Perhaps most telling was the impromptu parade that broke out when they finally caught him. An entire town lined the street to cheer on the police as they drove away.

I also think you are seriously exaggerating the prevalence of police harrassment. I was camping in Alleghany State Park in New York when the trooper died. This was one area where it was thought he might be hiding. I went through police roadblocks half a dozen times during this trip, and never once did I, or anyone else I was with, feel harrassed. Incidentally, Bucky sped through this very same roadblock only a few days later.

This whole article needs to be rewritten. While some of the information is almost certainly true, it is so one sided that I'm wary of placing any stock in any of it. The bias is so strong it borders on vandalism.

Bucky is not "familiar with the land." He's good at stealing cars. And just because you were camping here doesn't mean that your little experience means anything. Even the police union knows that the leadership messed up and they are asking for an investigation. Police harassment was rapant. It's even covered in The New York Times. And the non-cooperation of the state troopers was experienced by the Chautauua county sheriff and both the village of cassadaga and fredonia police. This whole thing went beyond fiasco and was more in the realm of outright scandal. Don't believe everything you read in the papers, porch dog.

[edit] Deletion Qualification

Unless someone has any argument at all as to why this should be deleted, I'm taking off the "deletion consideration" marker. And the "lack of sources" marker, because after my edit, two credible sources (cnn, philadelphia inquirer) will be listed. 69.136.243.29

An Wikipedia:Articles for deletion template should never be removed unless the accompanying AFD discussion is closed, by an administrator. You may be thinking of proposed deletion, which any editor is permitted to remove. Also, when a concern about sources is raised, it's best to start adding them inline. --Dhartung | Talk 21:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please either present the case for deletion or remove the AFD template? I believe there is a place for this article. If the complaint is that it is more newsy than encyclopedic, I will remind everyone of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings page during the 7/7 bombings. Since Ralph "Bucky" Phillips is starting to gain the attention of the national media and has a whole region of New York on edge, I think the site warrents keeping. SJCstudent 01:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I do wonder why this was speedy deleted, (twice apparently) here is the criteria for speedy deletion "Pages that are suitable for instant deletion, being patent nonsense or pure vandalism and which can obviously be deleted on sight" This page does'nt even come near that, this definetly is the place for the article. --Bamaman 22:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I, too, find it odd that this article was deleted. Official policy seems to indicate that wiki isn't concerned with causes for infamy, but the infamy itself. This could conceivably be relevant for research at some point. --Wikidelphia 03:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I argued in the AFD that the speedy deletion did not meet the criteria. As it happened, the consensus (not a vote) went clearly against deletion, and the nom was withdrawn. Please note in future that only comments at the AFD entry count, there is no purpose to discussing it on an article talk page. --Dhartung | Talk 03:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know where to put that comment referring to the AFD. I am new to this, and there are many procedures, policies, and generally accepted norms. Thanks for the instruction :). Wikidelphia 04:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] what were his original crimes?

He escaped from jail. He was in jail for parole violation. What were his earlier offenses to put him in a parole situation? Please add the answer to the article. Thanks! Well, he got in a fight with another immate which violated his parole. Kingturtle 13:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

This info has been updated in the first paragraph of the prior crimes section. Zotdragon 20:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good that they're closing in

It shall not be long before 250 SWAT officers surround him, take him away, book him in court to a fair but speedy trial - and give it just three months and he'll be in his cell at ADX Florence! --Nicholas Weiner 16:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a little more complex than that, I'm afraid. There's quite a network of cabins and woods up there, and he's pretty much able to roam them at will. The problem is is that he's got a huge support network of loser buddies who are helping him out AND he's an experienced woodsman. -TMorrisey

[edit] "Bucky" and "Buck" = redirects

I've seen news articles referring to Ralph "Buck" Phillips. Out of curiosity I checked the FBI's entry on the wanted list for aliases and found both spellings. Thus, I created redirects from "Buck Phillips" and "Buck Philips" to this page. Sdr 21:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Apparently he was known by "Bucky" as a kid but also answers to "Buck". In any case the article is wrongly named (somebody was getting around the fact that earlier properly-named articles had been deleted). --Dhartung | Talk 03:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

He's never been called Buck. His nickname is Bucky. CNN is mistaken. (I know him) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.249.68.152 (talk) .

Perhaps you do know him, but adding information on firsthand knowledge may violate wikipedia's NOR policy. Autopilots 08:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] He Has Been Caught.

Bucky Phillips was caught today, around 3 minutes ago. It is on most of the news so flip it on and watch.

It is true, he has been caught. Article updates expected within an hour. --Cyde Weys 00:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Only a couple miles from where I live too.Nimrod1234 01:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "was a fugitive"

"Phillips (born June 19, 1962) was a fugitive from upstate New York"...WAS makes it sound like he's dead. can someone rephrase the first sentence so it is in the present tense? Kingturtle 06:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The wording is accurate, he's no longer a fugitive since he's been caught. TJ Spyke 20:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

"Captured fugitive" states it simply and accurately.

[edit] Ralph "Bucky" Phillips?

"Bucky" is not really part of his name, but rather a nickname, if I'm not mistaken. Shouldn't this article's title therefore be Ralph "Bucky" Phillips? Heimstern Läufer 21:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Buckey is his middle name. FellowWikip e dian 22:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

No, James is his middle name. Bucky was just his nickname. I suggested in the AfD that this page be moved to Ralph Phillps and makes Ralph Bucky Phillips and Ralph "Bucky" Phillips redirects. TJ Spyke 23:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article's title be Ralph James Phillips or Ralph Phillips? FellowWikip e dian 23:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, it seems like Ralph Phillips is used for a Looney Toons character, but Ralph James Phillips just redirects back to this page. TJ Spyke 23:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It would make more sence if the article's name was Ralph James Phillips. FellowWikip e dian 00:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The general practice is to use the most common name, not an official name (e.g. Bill Clinton, not William Jefferson Clinton). So I'd suggest either Ralph Phillips (fugitive) or Ralph "Bucky" Phillips. --Delirium 07:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Ralph Phillips (fugitive) sounds better. FellowWikip e dian 16:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I always hear and read him called Ralph "Bucky" Phillips. I was under the impression that this was his most common name. If so (and of course I might be wrong), I think that should be that title. Heimstern Läufer 19:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rape story?

I live in WNY, and heard a story saying his daughter was raped, from someone who knew one of the correctional officers in the prison in which he was detained, and that this was the immediate motive for his escape. Is there any truth to this? ~~----

No. Ford MF 04:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Police behavior

This section was completely out of hand, bloated far beyond its relevance to this article here. I am however in general principally opposed to deleting large chunks of text (just because it doesn't quite belong here, doesn't mean it doesn't belong period), so I have spun the section off into its own article and linked from the section to its new home in its own main article. Even still, this article here remains rather obese and loosely written and could desperately use a more thorough cleanup than I currently have the will to give it. Ford MF 04:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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