Talk:Raja Yoga

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Contents

[edit] Cleanup

  • Structure and organization of the article is fixed by adding sections and by dividing the article based on those.
  • The tone of article is majorly instructional than informational. Need to be fixed
  • Few typos still remain.
  • Heavily laden with Sanskrit words. Explanation should be given wherever necessary. Any feedback from Non-indian/Sanskrit/Hindu is appreciated in this regard

--Vyzasatya 15:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I have some background and interest from a non-Indian/Sanskrit/Hindu perspective. I'll help.  :-) — RDF talk 17:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks!! that helps --Vyzasatya 18:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merging articles

  • I Realise that Ashtanga Yoga has the same information as this article albeit more precisely. Hence I propose merging Ashtanga Yoga with this article. --Vyzasatya 18:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I support merging the articles, with a redirect of course. Is either term more commonly used today than the other? I was more familiar with using "Ashtanga Yoga." Did Patanjali have a preference in usage? — RDF talk 18:32, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

For that matter, in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali#The Eight Limbs of Raja Yoga article section, the information is more extensive than either of these two articles. Would an extraction from that section be warranted here? Also, I'll support redirecting the Ashtanga Yoga article into this one. — RDF talk 19:11, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Though I am not an expert in Yoga, growing up in India, I heard the word Raja Yoga more commonly floating around in general public than Ashtanga Yoga. Making either one of them a redirect page is fine with me. Before doing so I would like hear some more opinions from various members --Vyzasatya 11:57, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Namaste, I don't know if I'm an expert (maybe you could call me a "master"). I'm from the Netherlands and was trained at the Raja Yoga institute [1] . I'm a Raja Yoga teacher for this institute, and we tell people Raja Yoga = Ashtanga Yoga.
I think it's helpfull to read the information on this page "Can Yoga do anything for you?" [2]

As you can see, we start with the Yamas and Niyamas (step 1,2) and Step 3 Asanas (= Hatha yoga). So what is stated in the article is not correct: "A Raja Yogi starts his Sadhana with the mind. He starts meditation and tries to control the mind."

We start with steps 1,2 and 3 and at the end of our Basic training course - after 9 month (parttime course 120 h, over 40 lessons)we are beginning with step 6 (Dharana)! Step 7 Meditation (Dhyana) in R-Y is very difficult. Raja Yoga meditation is meditating at "emptiness", and people starting with R-Y are unable to do that, even after the Basic course, for some students that takes 2-3 years, so during their teachers trainig course (parttime 3 years, 360 hrs, 120 lessons) they reach steps 7 and 8!

Practice of Hatha Yoga is not needed to start Raja Yoga, step 3 Asana = Hatha Yoga

So this is in general not correct: "Where Hatha Yoga ends, there Raja Yoga begins". Hatha Yoga is intergrated in Raja Yoga! hansB 22:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merging articles (Ashtanga Yoga-Raja Yoga reference to Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga

The Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga article Talk page currently makes reference to Sri K. Pattabhi Jois referring to the style of yoga he has promulgated only being officially called Ashtanga Yoga. My suggestion would be to move the material from Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga to Ashtanga Yoga providing disambiguation info at the top. Paul foord 09:36, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga article claims, "Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga or short Ashtanga Yoga is a style of Hatha Yoga taught by Sri K. Pattabhi Jois of Mysore, India." This is not consistent with the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. I oppose the proposed move. — RDF talk 13:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean? How do you see the proposed merger of Ashtanga Yoga-Raja Yoga? Common usage - most people think they know what Ashtanga is. Ashtanga Yoga as a redirect cannot work. Possibly a disambiguation page. Paul foord 13:49, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Maybe a disambiguation page would work better. My basic objection is that Ashtanga Yoga is not "a style of Hata Yoga." There are at least four articles of the "eight limbs." Some consolidation would be helpful. — RDF talk 15:44, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
  • It's difficult to dileneate diambiguation into fields such as these where tidy categories are not a reality.
    1. As I understand the teachings, it is not entirely correct to neatly file Ashtanga Yoga (as taught by Sri K. Pattabhi Jois) into the "Hatha Yoga" bin; although Hatha Yoga has influenced the teachings, Sri K. Pattabhi Jois teaches Patanjali's Ashtanga Yoga.
    2. It might make more sense to organize articles like Astanga Yoga and Raja Yoga into histories of the terms, when they first appeared, and then who then refashioned or reintegrated the term into their own unique view, and then discuss each of those views/definitions. From what I understand, Swami Svatmarama (first?) used the term Raja yoga in the Hatha Yoga Padipika, Krishnamacharya referred to Raja in a different way than did Vivekananda and his successors. So these terms and concepts, while they are specific and tightly knit within individual lineages, they can hold several simultaneous, and often conflicting definitions. And these threads then intersect from time to time, making it all exponentially more confusing. Souljerky 17:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] re merge proposal of 6 October 2005

Why merge the Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga and not Bikram Yoga, etc.

Please explain how the articles referenced at the List of yoga schools will be dealt with - do we end up with a massive unwieldy article or will you have a summary with links to more specific articles.
Paul foord 12:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative to merge

I have expanded the Ashtanga Yoga article with the material from here and left a summary here. If you still want to merge then this is not inconsistent. Saves on creating disambiguation page. But question remains how to reference of 8 limbs items elsewhere? Paul foord 13:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I think we can refer to that paticular section if we want to. The current setup looks lot more redundant. --Vyzasatya 16:07, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] talk page of Ashtanga Yoga

[edit] Merge Ashtanga

I propose merging the Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga page with this one since there really is no system called "Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga" and the distinction between the entities, while seperate, are quite related. Ashtanga Yoga as taught by Sri K. Pattabhi Jois is a particular approach to teaching the Ashtanga Yoga of Patanjali. Again, the distinction should be clear, but they should be on the same page. Additionally, the first todo item on the Yoga discussion page is to merge the content that currently exists here over to the Yoga page, although it should also remain in some form here. Any thoughts? --Souljerky 21:15, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I am not sure if this mereger proposal is still relevant after the merger of Raja Yoga and Ashtanga yoga. --Vyzasatya 16:22, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
The argument is circular the Jois system is known as Ashtanga Yoga generally (but now could be moved to the Ashtanga Yoga page), there are some websites calling it Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga, most students would know it as Ashtanga Yoga. It is an entity in its own right. Either leave it alone with cross referencing and disambiguation or move it - information has been lost regarding the disambiguation of the two entities Ashtanga Yoga. Paul foord 23:01, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
The entire point of this article is that Raja Yoga = Ashtanga Yoga. As Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga (is/is not) special case of it, I would would say It would be appropriate for it to be further discussed at talk:Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga. For now I would prefer to leave it alone with cross referencing and disambiguation like you suggested until it is resolved in Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga page --Vyzasatya 04:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Removed merge template - at a late stage can be further considered Paul foord 10:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hinduism template

"Raja Yoga or Ashtanga Yoga is one of the four major Yogic paths of Hinduism."

How does this opening statement relate to Template:Hinduism? — RDF talk 16:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

The hinduism template has links to Yoga, Yogasutra and Hatha yoga pradIpika. If we feel that it is taking too much of a page. we can do away with it. I am OK with it --Vyzasatya 17:11, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't mind the template being on the page. My confusion is about "the four major Yogic paths of Hinduism." What are the other three, where is Raja Yoga, and where are "the four major paths" located on the template? :-) — RDF talk 17:19, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I found this webpage citing four yogic paths. --Vyzasatya 04:25, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I made a new basic template for yoga related articles. give me your input for further improvements --Vyzasatya 04:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I like the idea of a Template:Yoga! :-) That certainly puts this article into a nice perspective. In terms of the list headings, would the one for here more appropriately be called "Four yogic paths of Hinduism"? How about for the next one, "Eight limbs of Raja Yoga"? (Do the wiki section-style capitalization rules apply here?) For the "Yogas" list, would that be expanded to include all the "This-and-That Yogas"? This template also got me thinking. Do you think there would be much interest in developing a Wikipedia:Wikiportal for "Yoga"? — RDF talk 17:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I think we can Include the rest of "This-and-that Yogas" too if we are thinkig in terms of a portal beacuse that will garner more support. Portal is a very nice idea depending on how number of people who are interested in Yoga. We need to gather support for the idea. Kudos RDF --Vyzasatya 19:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brahman-Atman Yoga (article deleted) & Kriya Yoga

The plot thickens...

"Brahman-Atman Yoga is also the same Kriya Yoga discussed by Patanjali in his Yoga Sutras. Brahman-Atman Yoga is the proper name, Kriya Yoga is the common name, and Raja Yoga is the popular name."

Are there more "merge" and/or "cross-reference" issues here? — RDF talk 19:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

The above claim made in Brahman-Atman Yoga article need to be verified. As Kriya Yoga article does not mention anything of being same as Raja Yoga or Brahman-Atman Yoga. Raja Yoga or Ashtanga Yoga does not claim anything about Kriya Yoga or Brahman-Atman Yoga. --Vyzasatya 20:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
So maybe just "clarifying" that statement will take care of it. ;-) — RDF talk 21:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Kriya Yoga and Raja Yoga is not the same thing. Raja Yoga means "Royal Yoga", and refers to the method of concentration (to achieve enlightenment/samadhi). Kriya Yoga more of a sub-genre of Raja Yoga, the method taught by the disciples of Lahiri Mahasaya (and their respective disciples, and so on).

[edit] Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organisation

The second line of the article currently refers to the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organisation.

  • Should this be shifted or removed?
    • It doesn't really seem to do what it says, that is For alternate meanings see ...
    • The article has a cleanup notice dated 15 November 2005

Paul foord 12:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I think we should replace it or replace it with some reference in the actual article. In it does not in itself warrant a disambiguation note but the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organisation are teaching their own form that they have called Raja Yoga as well. Obviously, it bears no relation to the classical form. They have a fairly high profile internationally and vigorous self-publicity. Individuals coming to the Wikipedia for information about publicised Raja Yoga will be misled unless there is reference to this and them. 195.82.106.113


[edit] Appropriate Balanced article

Now this is a neutral and balanced article and containing sufficient essential informations reagrding Raja yoga.user:Debbe03 November 2006, 23:35 IST

[edit] BKWSU Raja Yoga versus Classical/Patanjali Raja Yoga

Hi.

I have a problem here delineating what is classically known as Raja Yoga, e.g. Patanjali, Vivekananda etc and the spiritist practises used by the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University which involves meditating on the channelled entity or spirit they call Shiva after the Hindu God, the channelling of so-called "Shiva" through BK adherents, and the use of channelled messages spoken through their founder and current medium as the new "Gita".

Now, it is perfectly clear that what the BKs are teaching is entirely novel and the use of identical terminology is entirely confusing. But how to qualify this on the wiki? Unfortunately the Western academics demanded by other editors - whether sociological or Christian theologists - are entirely unqualified to comment on the differences.

  • Does anyone know if any experienced Hindu academics or yoga specialists have analysed the BKs and their practise?

Thank you. 195.82.106.244 15:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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