Talk:Railfan

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[edit] Proposal to drop Jargon section

I just alphabetized the jargon section but it got me thinking... with a much more substantial Rail terminology article already in place, wouldn't it make more sense to just add any needed terms over there rather than duplicate the work in this page? It could be noted on the Rail terminology page if the term is one primarily used by railfans. Any thoughts? Ahockley 22:51, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Having a single list will be both more logical and easier to maintain. Thryduulf 12:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, we discussed this briefly in July. We could easily merge the jargon into the main terminology page, but we need to ensure that jargon terms are labeled as such. I know several professional railroaders who use some of these terms (i.e. fallen flag and warbonnet), but the others I've only heard in railfanning circles.

Agreed that terms which are slang/jargon should be identified as such. Ahockley 18:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Since it seems there's not any objection, I'm going to merge the list of jargon into the Rail terminology article later today. Ahockley 14:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I merged the non-paint-scheme terms into Rail terminology - what do you guys think about paint schemes? There's a ton of them, only a fraction of which are on this list. Do we expand the list and keep it here? Put it all on Rail terminology? Start a new article?

As a side note, at what point do we split off the List of railfanning locations into its own article? The list here seems to be getting pretty big and about a third of them have their own articles (i.e. Rochelle Railroad Park or Tehachapi Loop). Also, we need to take some time to trim the External links section. WP:NOT a link repository. slambo 12:57, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the list of locations needs to be a separate article yet, but it could use some organization (perhaps alphabetical by state/country?) Ahockley 18:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

At the very least, it needs entries from outside the United States. We don't hold a monopoly on good railfanning locations. B-) slambo 18:38, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

In case you hadn't noticed, both jargon subpages are nominated for deletion. The grounds for nomination is WP:NOT. I think these lists have value, and as it appears that they will be deleted despite many Keep votes, I would be willing to host such a jargon list on my personal website. I will check into the copyright implications this week. Slambo (Speak) 12:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Repetiveness and Citations

There's quite a bit of repetition--for example, the material mentioned in the "Other names" section is repeated in various other places in the article.

Also, someone said railfans tend to be male and homosexual. Source for this? cluth 20:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The homosexual bit is vandalism. It is patently false; the overwhelming majority of railfans that I know personally (myself included) or that I meet while out railfanning are heterosexual, most are married with children. Although there are more men railfanning than women, this is slowly changing to a more even count. Slambo (Speak) 20:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Based on personal observations yesterday at the West Somerset Railway steam gala, I'd say it was about 75% men. Of those who gathered at Taunton railway station to watch a SR Battle of Britain Class loco pass through on a charter London Paddington to the gala, all were men afaict (although just about everybody on the station at the time gravitated towards it during the two minutes it was there!). Thryduulf 21:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OCD connection?

I have my doubts about the latest addition to the Reasons section added by ShyLou (talk • contribs). The original wording made it sound like railfanning itself is a disease from which we must all be cured, but looking a little further, the addition was the user's very first edit under that username. Given the nature of some of the vandalism that we've seen on this page, I'm a little suspicious. A quick Google for "Obsessive Compulsive Railroad Enthusiasts" or for "Southern Ontario Review of Psychology and Neurology" comes up with no exact matches, so I don't know yet if the reference itself is real; do we have an established editor that can verify the reference? I would venture to guess that the "estimated 78% to 93%" figure could be applied equally well to sports fans (especially the ones who paint their bodies in their favorite team's colors; you know the kind of fans I mean). Every hobby has practitioners who could be diagnosed with OCD (see Fan (aficionado)), so it is believable, but I want to be certain. Slambo (Speak) 12:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I see that the controversial addition was restored by Feldman (talk • contribs) as his very first (and so far only) edit. Such an edit is not made by a brand new editor, but someone who has changed usernames or who has been editing anonymously for a while and finally created one. I'm tempted to put in a checkuser request to compare the two logins. Slambo (Speak) 15:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Fat guys who paint their upper torsos in various colors and go shirtless at Lambeau Field in below-freezing temperatures while wearing foam slices of cheese on their heads are normal in their societal function and we affirm them. You railfan types who watch trains while fully clothed are the real freaks! (If I had a way to stick that message board emoticon with the rolling eyes in here, I would.) As for the information, the paper could have been buried in some long-defunct journal that never made it to the current period for electronic reproduction and/or indexing. Google pulls up nothing when any cognizable part of the citation is punched in, so I'm tempted to say that neither journal nor study exists. Unless someone's got access to a specialized psych-profession database and can confirm this citation, strike it. You know, that whole verifiable thing. Unless I just happen to be one of the lucky 7-22%, this thing is bunk.--Foxhound 01:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

This issue is going to remain active so long as users such as WashingtonWillie continue to repost this unverified "information" and claim vandalism when anyone removes it. Maybe page protection is in order?--Lordkinbote 19:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

If that's the appropriate next step, then go for it. I concur that this issue will remain an active one despite an edit/revert war seeming silly in this case. That being said, I wish someone with specialized knowledge could say, up or down, if the Southern Ontario Review and the piece existed/exist. I wouldn't mind reading it.--Foxhound 05:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I've invited WashingtonWillie (talk • contribs) to join the discussion here. I have my doubts as to the validity of the reference even though it sounds plausible. There is a medical/psych library at the UW Madison campus (about 10 minutes from my house), I just haven't had a chance to go over there to ask about it yet. Slambo (Speak) 11:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I've spent some more time trying to hunt this down, without success. I have however found the website of the "Southern Ontario Library Service" [1]. Thinking that if the journal exists/has existed that they would be likely to know about it I have just sent them the following email asking for assistence:

Hello

I am an editor at Wikipedia the free online encyclopedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org). I am trying to verify the accuracy of some
information added to the Railfan article
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wki/Railfan), apparently from a journal called
the "Southern Ontario Review of Psychology and Neurology". Unfortunately
neither I nor my fellow editors have managed to even verify that this
journal exists or has ever existed.

I found your website (http://www.sols.org) after much searching on Google
for various organisations that might give some clue as to the existence
of the Journal, from where we could then verify whether the study
("Obsessive Compulsive Railroad Enthusiasts") is genuine (neither the
journal title nor the study title produce any direct matches). I was
wondering if it would be possible for you check your records to see if you
can find any record of the Journal, and if so where we might be able to
check to see if the facts presented to us are actually confirmed in the
journal. If this is not possible, I would appreciate it if you could
advise me of somebody who might be able to help.

If you could reply to this email address, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you

Hopefully they'll get back to me with something. Thryduulf 13:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, they have got back to me but unfortunately aren't able to help (they just provide support to public libraries, they aren't one themselves). So I'll try contacting some libraries in the area direct. I'll also see if an online friend who lives near London, Ontario can help as well. Watch this space. Thryduulf 19:28, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

After a month nobody has been able to provide any evidence that the journal exists or existed. Thryduulf 16:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FRN

Yes, FRN is a real name that some railroaders use to describe railfans. I've heard it from some friends of mine who work in the industry. In an effort to be a little more neutral in POV, I've added it back to the article and included a book reference for it that specifically cites this term as well as foamer. Slambo (Speak) 18:04, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I may have considered that, however I maintain that it is not appropraite becuase it stands for "f'cking rail nut" and because of conflict I got into with Monicasdude over the article on Self Portrait where I kept rewriting the s-word with asterisks and I noticed it kept on being changed back. When I eventually looked at the page's history I discovered that this user kept reverting "censored language." Monicasdude stated that wikipedia is not censored. I took this up at the village pump, and then later found WP:Profanity. I also discovered that at Wikitionary and Wikinews this was general policy, but with the allowance for articles to be censored after a consensus.Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian):-(

Wikipedia:Profanity is the apropriate guideline for this. It basically boils down to, don't censor profanity unless there is a consensus to do so (I'm having a disucssion with another user there about how to quote censored profanity - If Joe Bloggs said "I f*cking hate the b******d" should that be quoted as written or as "I fucking hate the bastard"?). I don't see a reason to censor in this case - especially as there is a cited use. Thryduulf 23:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I had seriously considered asterisking out f*** as I don't much like the word either, but I felt that since that's the meaning that I've heard from industry and since I have found and supplied a verifiable reference, WP's Profanity guideline won. Personally, I wouldn't mind if it's asterisked, but whatever form it takes, FRN needs to be included because it's a real and verifiable term even if we, as railfans ourselves, don't like the term. Slambo (Speak) 10:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reducing external links

We now have a nice big box on the article from someone else who thinks we've got too many External links here. I've stated above that we need to reduce them, so I'll propose that any link that does not give a further description of what a railfan is should be removed. In other words we should remove links that cover topics of interest to railfans and list only those that further describe or define railfans. Slambo (Speak) 16:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I agree that the links are somewhat excessive and something needs to be adjusted. SchuminWeb (Talk) 21:46, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I gave it a spin, and sorted the links by country, and removed a number of mailing lists, bulletin boards, not-well-done sites, and very loosely-related sites in two rounds. I also removed the warning tag. Hopefully this will clean this up a bit, but further refinements will always help. SchuminWeb (Talk) 01:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another neologism

A quick google for the new word (check the history; I'm not mentioning it here to prevent false hits on future search results [I don't like FRN either, but that term is in widespread and published use]) shows six hits, with half of them being a username. I haven't looked at the site mentioned in the latest revert, but I suspect that this new term isn't quite as widespread as it's being made out to be. I'd rather see more references to the term's use in more widely-read and well-publicized resources (I've seen two links, please list more below) before we include it here. Slambo (Speak) 13:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In relation to Asperger's syndrome

I have sometimes seen the word trainspotter used as an insult for a person diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. After reading this article, indeed, I can understand how many trainspotters and railfans could very well be diagnosable with this condition. Maybe something about this hobby in relation to Asperger's syndrome should be added to the article by someone more intimately familiar with both concepts.--NeantHumain 00:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The tricky part is to add such information so that it doesn't make it sound like all railfans are such, because they are not. Also, make sure to include credible and verifiable references. Railfanning is not the only hobby with its share of fanboys; the same obsession can be observed in sports, music and theater fans as well as car and motorcycle fans. Slambo (Speak) 15:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is this article was already cluttered up with repeated references trying to connect railfans to some form of mental illness or nerdiness: an unsourced mention of a French term for "railway disorder"; far too much discussion of the negative implications of "FRN" and "foamer"; repeated attempts to add unsourced material claiming most railfans have obsessive-compulsive disorder; repeated attempts to add links like "geek", "anorak", and "rivet counter" to the links; too much unsourced accusation that railfans are unsafe or disruptive of railroad operations; etc. Those references have now been removed and it was long overdue. We need to keep them out of this article. This isn't an article about other perjorative uses of Train Spotter, it's an article about the railroad hobbyist aspects. If Train Spotter is used in a perjorative way for Asperger's Syndrome it still doesn't belong in this article, that's what the disambiguation page trainspotting is for. 70.108.115.103 20:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I have removed external links to discussion forums as they are a violation of WP:EL. -- MakeChooChooGoNow 17:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed this link twice as a violation of WP:EL and it's back.

My arguments for removing.

This is a forum.
The quality of the forum cannot be assessed without joining the group (a paid membership)
The forum is not a unique resource to the topic.
Is being promoted by a member or moderator of the forum in violation of WP:SPAM. -- MakeChooChooGoNow 04:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rollback reason

The recent edit introduced inconsistencies in the usage of the terms "railway" and "railroad" as well as introduced spellings that were not consistent with the rest of the article. Slambo (Speak) 10:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge discussion: Tram spotter

Another editor added the merge tags; please discuss the proposed merge here. Slambo (Speak) 15:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Support. Tram spotting is little different to trainspotting, which is rightly part of this article. Thryduulf 17:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Support. Seems that they are basically the same thing, and thus can be folded together. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Merge. This is a stub article; simply redirect to Railfanwith a subsection on this. Scoutersig 14:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The other page was deleted on November 4 through the {{prod}} process as "NN hobby, importance". I didn't see too much from there that wasn't already in this article. Slambo (Speak) 14:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rollback reason, Oct 29, 2006

Ferroequinology is not just studying steam locomotives. Slambo (Speak) 17:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

What a sheletered existence I've had. All these years a rail enthusiast, and never encountered the term before! Googling reveals 647 hits, so it is not exactly unknown. I have been BOLD and added a fresh entry under 'Other names'. To avoid the issues behind the earlier rollback, I have been even bolder and tweaked the Wiktionary entry to suit! (See wikt:ferroequinology ).

The reasoning behind the claim that the term is 'rarely used by non-railfans' comes from a sampling of the various Google hits - I didn't find any that weren't on sites for or by railway enthusiasts (although I didn't check every link). It's a bit weasly, but I think necessary clarification.

EdJogg 13:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable railfans

is it really interesting that Michael Palin is a railfan? i think we need a citation for that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ben moss (talk • contribs) 19:50, November 28, 2006.

I think it is interesting. Railway enthusiasts get such a bad press in the media that it is worth noting any well-known people who "come out of the closet" (so to speak!) about their interest in railways. This would help reinforce the worth of our hobby without entering into POV issues. It would also be useful reference for anyone researching the hobby from a 'people' POV (consider someone researching for a TV documentary about the hobby). Obviously we would need appropriate refs, but in many cases this would be straightforward. If the references are more than just mentioning their interest (as in many of the examples below) they will be of much greater value.

Some examples:

The composer Antonín Dvořák (it's mentioned in his article, and I found another reference on another site)
Producer Pete Waterman, whose interest extended to forming his own rolling stock company. (I believe he was a steam loco fireman on BR before entering the world of pop.)
Joe Brown (singer) featured in some 1950's/1960's British Transport Films productions, and his commentary suggested that he had a love of steam engines and had spent some time working on the railways. (Sorry, it's a while since I've seen the film in question!)
Bob Symes - who has presented TV programmes about model railways
David Shepherd (artist) - owner of several steam locomotives and instrumental in the establishment of the East Somerset Railway
Michael Palin - whose first TV travel documentary was Great Railway Journeys of the World for the BBC, his involvement having come from his interest in railways, and which was the start of a new direction in his career

EdJogg 14:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NoMoreLinks

I did a little more reading today on Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam to see what is being done in other articles about the proliferation of external links. After reading there, I added {{NoMoreLinks}} to the External links section here to explicitly state that undiscussed links can and will be deleted. I think there are too many links there now, and I plan to go through with a rather large paring knife to remove links that aren't specifically about railfans (links containing rolling stock lists, photo galleries, tips on photo locations, etc., may be removed) soon. The list of railfanning locations should probably also move to a separate page to keep the content here more concise. Slambo (Speak) 16:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Hopefully this will also address the imbalance between the quantity of US links vs quantity of links for any other individual country... :o) EdJogg 17:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested New Links

Please add suggestions here for review:

[edit] "What is a railfan?"

Bumped into this site written by a mature US railfan: http://www.3ri.com/what_is_a_railfan.htm.

Although most of the points are covered in the WP article, it is a well-written document, particularly covering the relationship between railfans and law-enforcement agencies, and might better meet the tighter requirements than many of the existing external links.

EdJogg 13:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Support addition. Good find; the site describes what a railfan is without giving a ton of information only relevant to railfans themselves. Slambo (Speak) 14:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Railfan versus Trainspotter

I think this article would make much more sense being located at Trainspotter and mentioning "railfan" as an alternative term... I for one have never heard of the term railfan but "trainspotter" has not only entered every-day lexicon (it was the title of a motion picture and a novel and it is now synonymous with an obsessive personality in any context). It would also be more logical considering the fact that trainspotting is already an article whereas there is nothing written on "railfandom" or any variation thereof. Is there a reason why it is located in one place as opposed to another? Waqcku 05:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The term "trainspotter", as in the "every-day lexicon", generally has a somewhat different meaning to railfan. For example, the film and the novel have nothing to do with trainspotting in this context. Nor does this context relate strongly to obsessive personalities. If anything, I'd have to say the reasons above go a fair way to explaining why this article should not be entitled "trainspotter". --Evan C (Talk) 06:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Fully agree with Evan C. The colloquial use of the term trainspotter is almost always derogatory towards railway enthusiasts, and therefore a move could be considered as going against NPOV guidelines. Admittedly, I had never heard the term 'railfan' before coming to WP, but this does seem to be a generic term used here to cover usage across multiple countries, so I guess it is OK.

As a railway enthusiast I would prefer the article title to be 'railway enthusiast', of course, probably as I associate the word 'fan' with a less critical appreciation of the subject matter (as in 'Beatles fan', 'Take That fan', etc). I don't like being called a 'train spotter' any more than someone interested in the architecture of religious buildings would want to be called a 'church spotter'.

(Touched a nerve there... :o) ) -- EdJogg 10:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

At least in the American rail press, railfan seems to be the preferred term. I had heard and used both terms before logging on to WP two years ago, and with my extensive personal library, I'm sure I could find references further back. In fact, a quick search at Model Railroader Magazine's index comes up with the first hit as far back as 1940 ( (November 1940) "Railfan Ingenuity". Trains: p 6.). Slambo (Speak) 11:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ferroequinology definition

(Also see: "Rollback reason, Oct 29, 2006" above)

It seems that our friends at Wiktionary are disputing the verifiability of the term 'ferroequinology'. If it is not possible to prove usage by 6th Jan 2007 then the term will be deleted. See Wikt:ferroequinology for the definition and Wikt:Wiktionary:Requests for verification#ferroequinology for the discussion.

EdJogg 14:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

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