Talk:Race and intelligence (Average gaps among races)

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	Race and intelligence
	Public controversy | Media portrayal | Utility of research | Accusations of bias Average test score gaps among races | Explanations | References

Contents 1 Kudos 2 NPOV 3 Old measurments 4 Deleted paragraph 5 NEANDERTHALS 6 Samuel Morton 7 External Links

[edit] Kudos

Wow someone has done an incredible job with this article. This is and the other articles in the series are probably the best introduction to the IQ debate available anywhere.

I would be interested in the racial demographics of the contributors to this article. It goes without saying that the racial classification of the individuals who hold the beliefs purported in this article is something that any moderators of this article (who themselves would have political and social viewpoints that may be far from objective) would be wise to look at in order to determine how representative this article is of the variety of viewpoints that exist (I'm sure that this point recurs frequently).

Also, given a subjective opinion (ie: "This is and the other articles in the series are probably the best introduction to the IQ debate available anywhere.") sounds more like an advertisement for alcholic beverage that it does for sound scientific and apolitical analysis (though, nobody said that that is what we're looking for here).

--Nukemason 19:53, August 1, 2006 (UTC)

I generally support Chomsky's opinion on that issue:

I rather doubt that the non-white, non-male students, friends, and colleagues with whom I work would be much impressed with the doctrine that their thinking and understanding differ from "white male science" because of their "culture or gender and race." I suspect that "surprise" would not be quite the proper word for their reaction.[1]

But figures in this field who don't consider group differences off-limits have included representation from Whites, Jews, Asians, and African Americans (Thomas Sowell [2]).--Nectar 19:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This page will be marked as NPOV until the identical charts and passages from the main race and intelligence page have been NPOV'd. Jokestress 19:29, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

what's up with this now? --Rikurzhen 07:23, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

For starters, title should be changed to average test score gaps among races, so we can move all that IQ stuff here instead of the "main" page. Jokestress 22:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

The complication with that title is that brain size doesn't fit well with "test score".

Question: all that IQ stuff here instead of the "main" page what stuff? --Rikurzhen 22:14, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

The brain size-intelligence correlation is not well-established, and anatomical stuff should go under the neurology section. The articles as they stand make a bunch of tendentious connections and infer a stronger correlation than has been established. There should be at least six articles to explain the possible connections:

• "race" and neuroanatomy
• neuroanatomy and "intelligence"
• "race" and "intelligence"
• "intelligence" and test scores
• test scores and "race"
• neuroanatomy and test scores

Jokestress 01:37, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Slow down there. The brain size-intelligence correlation is not well-established. This is false. If you are basing your judgement on article content on that belief, this will be a problem. McDaniel (2005) is the latest meta-analysis of IQ and brain size, and finds an overall correlation of 0.4. See Thompson and Gray (2004) for a broader review of the literature on brain/intelligence relationships -- thanks to MRI, correlations have been worked out to the level of specific brain structures. As to your suggested list of articles: The main problem is that you cannot discuss the science of "intelligence" without discussing test scores; no other measure of intelligence exists which can substitute for test scores (even measures of intelligence that purport to not be IQ tests are "tests" nontheless, such as creativity tests). So it is not feasible to divide a discussion of things related to "test scores" and "intelligence" into separate articles. For exmaple, neuroanatomy and test scores and neuroanatomy and "intelligence" are not distinguishable -- all of the literature on intelligence/neuroanatomy relies on psychometrics and g -- and the current WP article for this idea is Neuroscience and intelligence. Likewise, I don't know how you would divide "race" and "intelligence" from test scores and "race", although this very article tries to focus on just the data rather than interpretations of cause. The intelligence (trait) article covers "intelligence" and test scores, with most of the test scores material in IQ. This leaves "race" and neuroanatomy, for which historically material could be covered in Craniometry, but is most relevant here. --Rikurzhen 01:59, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

I guess we need an IQ and intelligence article too, then. Brain size-IQ seems to have been correlated in some studies, but others suggest brain size and intelligence have not. Both this and the "main" article are almost entirely about IQ and present exhaustive analysis of IQ data, but they barely discuss the controversy surrounding IQ. The race/IQ chart that appears on every page is, to me, one of the major agenda-pushing elements of this series. Just because IQ is widely used and is the best available evidence does not mean it is conclusive or even meaningful. That debate needs to be aired in the article(s). Jokestress 15:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I guess we need an IQ and intelligence article too, then. if you insist, but intelligence (trait) would seem to be the right place for that discussion, as most articles link there and it has the most general title; otherwise more detailed criticism of IQ can go on the IQ page.

Brain size-IQ seems to have been correlated in some studies, but others suggest brain size and intelligence have not. Both this and the "main" article are almost entirely about IQ and present exhaustive analysis of IQ data, but they barely discuss the controversy surrounding IQ. I'm afraid that the "controversy" surrounding IQ is not deep enough to support the kind of robust discussion you are seeking. There is no serious alternative for intelligence testing that isn't a de facto IQ test, even Sternberg's tests turned out to predominantly measure g. Add to this the fact that g makes up almost 100% of the predictive power of IQ scores. For that reason, "IQ" is the metric upon which things like "retardation" or "giftedness" are measured, and IQ (although the tests have various names) is the measure by which average group differences in intelligence are quantified. If there is a serious controversy around IQ, it is that IQ doesn't measure all behaviors that might be described as "intelligent", but most experts seems to think that it measures most of the important aspects of inteligent behavior. This is why, as DAD pointed out, review artices aimed at the general scientific audience say that g is the sense of intelligence they will focus on and then move on:

In this review,we emphasize intelligence in the sense of reasoning and novel problem-solving ability (BOX 1). Also called FLUID INTELLIGENCE (Gf)11, it is related to analytical intelligence12. Intelligence in this sense is not at all controversial, and is best understood at multiple levels of analysis (FIG. 1). Empirically,Gf is the best predictor of performance on diverse tasks, so much so that Gf and general intelligence (g, or general cognitive ability) might not be psychometrically distinct13,14.Conceptions of intelligence(s) and methods to measure them continue to evolve, but there is agreement on many key points; for example, that intelligence is not fixed, and that test bias does not explain group differences in test scores15. Intelligence research is more advanced and less controversial than is widely realized15–17, and permits some definitive conclusions about the biological bases of intelligence to be drawn.[3]

The race/IQ chart that appears on every page is, to me, one of the major agenda-pushing elements of this series. Just because IQ is widely used and is the best available evidence does not mean it is conclusive or even meaningful. That debate needs to be aired in the article(s). We should develop the "what is intelligence?" debate as fully as possible on the intelligence (trait) article, and then as per WP:NPOV we should only state the necessary assummption about IQ as a "brief, unobtrusive pointer". As this part of NPOV policy states "There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial." We should not describe the debate on every page: "there is probably not a good reason to discuss some assumption on a given page, if an assumption is best discussed in depth on some other page". The best page for an "what is intelligence?" debate is the the intelligence (trait) page. --Rikurzhen 17:53, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Just because IQ is widely used and is the best available evidence does not mean it is conclusive or even meaningful. Aside from test bias, which was settled long ago, there is no reason to think that an IQ difference isn't meaningful or conclusive. (I know of no one who says they aren't meaningful; consider Atkins v. Virginia.) That is, conclusive about there being a skills difference, and meaningful insofar as those skills are useful. The "IQ" metric shown in the charts (which are WISC-R scores, I think) could be substituded with SAT (college entrance) scores, or NAEP (education) scores, or AFQT (military) scores, and they would paint the same picture. The use of "IQ" scale numbers is just for the sake of communication -- most scores are converted to the IQ scale for the sake of presentation. The Sternberg-Gardner point (Triarchic theory of intelligence and Theory of multiple intelligences, but note Sternberg is a critic of Gardner) about IQ does not lessen the acutal importance of IQ, rather they are trying to stake out further aspects of behavior to be labeled "intelligence", with variable success. Moreover, even if Sternberg were right, it would not change the fact that there is a group difference in g, even if g were not a full (enough) description of intelligence. I've never read Sternberg argue otherwise. --Rikurzhen 18:12, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Old measurments

The text present in great detail very old data and even has several images. These are not very interesting because 1) skull size and shape has changed and 2) doubtful methodology, for example many of the old studies claimed to show to whites had larger brain size than East Asians. Therefore they should be summarized in a brief paragraph and the images removed. Objections? Ultramarine 16:10, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Some studies, both historical and modern, have shown that Whites have larger brain size than East Asians. Others (such as Morton's Crania Americana) showed that East Asians' were larger than Whites. However, when adjusted for average body size, East Asians always come out above Whites in terms of encephalization quotients. And even though the pictures are old, the illustrations are important because they show the extent that the same thing that is being debated today was known over a hundred years ago, and that the same trend (Black --> White --> East Asian) appeared then as it does today. And what is your evidence for the claim that the methodology was doubtful? Dd2 05:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

See my cited paper. Ultramarine 06:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Which cited paper? "How 'Caucasoids' got such big crania and why they shrank"? Dd2 15:54, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Ultramarine 17:48, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted paragraph

Here is the explanation for the deletion of this paragraph: "Several historical studies from the 19th century and early 20th century found racial differences. However, they often argued that whites had the largest measurements which was the politically correct view at the time. This is different from more recent results [4]. The results may also be of little relevance for current differences, because, as noted later, brain size and shape has changed greatly."

Problems with this paragraph:

• The studies that I know of that included East Asians ranked them in front of Whites in terms of brain size
• Insinuating that the studies showed Whites had larger brain size out of political correctness is original research
• The claim that the results have little relevance or may be different today (and it's not; the order is still the same) has no citation and as it stands is original research. Dd2 05:40, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Changed due to above critic. Ultramarine 06:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NEANDERTHALS

IQ can change depending on environmental conditions from day to day,stress can change iq scores being sleepy,or emotional factors like anger or depression,which just happens to be highest among people with poor medical access and poverty in general,also scientific evidence proves that the neanderthal had larger brains than humans,they werent smarter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.18.38.73 (talk • contribs) 07:34, 19 August 2005.

True, but not consequential. Also, wrong article. --Rikurzhen 17:46, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

We cannot make representations of the intelligence of Neanderthals unless we can point to scores that Neanderthals achieved on intelligence tests. Also, let us not forget that skull size does not allow us to compare brain sizes. Neanderthal brains may have had a different distribution of ratios of cortex (gray matter) to cross-connecting axons (white matter), or their cortexes may have had a different distribution of wrinkledness. Brain size aside, there are many convoluting factors....

The Neanderthals failed the biggest test of all; they failed to evolve. 205.161.226.94 07:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Some people speculate that the Neanderthals had higher spacial/visual intelligence than Homo Sapiens.

[edit] Samuel Morton

Samuel Morton actually didn't mention that East Asian skulls were bigger. See this source: [5] He was among the few that claimed that white skulls were bigger.

From PBS:

Samuel G. Morton (1799-1851), a Philadelphia doctor, collected and measured hundreds of human skulls in order to confirm that there are inborn differences among the races -- above all, a difference in brain size. His systematic large-scale experiments made him a pioneer of American science, especially the discipline of Physical Anthropology, which studies the biology of human populations.

Living in a time of slavery, when Indians were in full retreat, Morton was confident whites were naturally superior. He belonged to a school of thought called 'polygenism,' which held that the different races are different species, with separate origins. This contradicts the Biblical story of Adam and Eve. Morton also thought he could identify any skull's racial origin simply by measuring it. Modern physical anthropologists no longer make this claim. And 'race' is now seen not as a biological fact, but as a social and cultural perception.

Morton assumed that brain size bore a direct relation to intelligence, so he tried to rank the races by measuring the brain cavities of human skulls. He poured skulls full of lead pellets, then dumped the pellets into a glass measuring cup. When he found that individuals within each race varied widely he set out to compare averages by measuring many skulls.

He ended up with more than 300 Native American skulls from North and South America, probably because they were the easiest to obtain. He also had 100 skulls from Egyptian mummies and a sampling of skulls from other races and populations. His tables assign the highest brain capacity to Europeans (with the English highest of all). Second rank goes to Chinese, third to Southeast Asians and Polynesians, fourth to American Indians, and last place to Africans and Australian aborigines.

Using Morton's raw data the evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould checked these results. He found Morton had manipulated his data, overlooking inconvenient exceptions. Gould assumes that brain size correlates most closely with height. The bigger the body, the bigger the brain, regardless of race. Rereading Morton's notes, Gould concludes that Morton doctored his results by relying on smaller individuals -- in particular, women -- to lower the figures for the races he wished to prove inferior. Once Gould eliminated body size as a factor he found that all races have roughly the same brain capacity.

Other resources:

   * Stephen Jay Gould, The Mismeasure of Man, 1981, W.W. Norton, New York
   * Stanton, William, The Leopard's Spots: Scientific Attitudes towards Race in America, 1815-1859, 1960, University of Chicago Press, Chicago
   * Frank Spencer, editor, History of Physical Anthropology, 1997, Garland, New York
   * American Anthropological Association, "Statement on Race" in Anthropology Newsletter, September , 1998 (www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm)

[edit] External Links

The two external links at the bottom of this page are not only NPOV but actively endorse a point of view that is controversial to say the least. For more on Steve Sailer, visit the [6] page. Hesperides 00:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the above commenter is referring to footnote 31 "Richard Lynn, "Race Differences in Intelligence: A Global Perspective," The Mankind Quarterly 31, no. 3 (1991): 255–96; Means for Progressive Matrices and 12 reaction time measures for 9-year-old children from five countries." The two links from here go to a website called 'Upstream' that is an extremely POV source. In it's introduction it says "These pages are a home for the intellectually heterodox, the politically incorrect and other independent thinkers. A home for outlaws. You will find reading lists and book reviews, original essays and commentaries published right here, information about interesting and useful organizations, and links to other Net resources.". I.e. this is hardly a source for this page. If you don't believe me, go to the website, and have a look around. You'll find pages about how heterosexual AIDS is a myth, and other lovely topics, including an extensive section that is exceptionally POV about race and ethnicity. Indeed, the page http://www.gnxp.com/ is used at least twice as a citation, depsite it being a highly POV conservative blog page. I think unless the person who put those links in can find academic citations, those must be deleted. What also concerns me is that within the references page for wider race and intelligence articles on the Wikipedia, you tend to see a lot of people associated with the Pioneer Fund, Charles Darwin Institute etc. It would be nice if someone with extensive experience on this topic could write a criticism page within this article itself to balance things out and show that these results are not totally viewed as gospel. Very nicely presented page though. Cheers, Hauser 05:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

1. Upstream simply reprints previously published articles. Their reprinting of critical articles has sometimes been helpful.[7]

2. The two GNXP refs actually refer to the same article, summarizing studies that suggest the B-W gap may be less in Britain. One of the easiest arguments to accept regarding the credibility of the site is that some scientists publishing in related areas frequent the site and have occasionally authored posts there.

3. The main article in this series covers the criticisms of the Pioneer Fund and related accusations of bias.--Nectar 10:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I accept your comment following reading more about Richard Lynn, though admittedly I (nor most other people reasonably informed about the scientific debate owouldn't view sources from the Mankind Quarterly (being a Pioneer Fund-sponsored publication) as being NPOV and unquestionably academic. Nor the fact that Lynn himself is a highly controversial and not always well regarded academic make the extensive use of his research in this article valid. I disagree with your point on GNXP and maintain it is not Wikipedia quality to reference it. I do not accept the fact that the Pioneer Fund information is dealt with on the 'main article' in the series: if you read this article, it effectively mimics the stances taken by the Pioneer Fund and there is very little criticism of the idea that race and intelligence are linked on this page, and first time readers of this page will believe everything that is on this page is entirely undisputed fact. Hauser 12:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Huh? This article doesn't even discuss the partly genetic hypothesis. Do you mean readers might think race and intelligence are correlated, regardless of the cause? These groups scoring differently on IQ tests is not disputed by any scientists in intelligence research.

The main article discusses the numerous contextual arguments, and this sub-article discusses the data that constitutes this area. Like it or not, Jensen and Lynn are some of the primary sources in this area. The other references in this sub-article.. Roth et al.. Makintosh.. Harvey et al.. Nisbett.. Ho et al.. Grudnik and Kranzler.. etc. etc.. certainly haven't accepted grants from Pioneer.

I'm not going to debate about those two sentences referencing GNXP.. remove them if you want.--Nectar 10:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Hauser, I was the person who started the "External Links" section on this page and I removed the two Sailer links, but I'm almost certain they weren't the ones you speak of (though my memory could be playing trick on me. Hesperides 00:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)