Talk:Race Differences in Intelligence

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It appears that North America's average IQ, according to the data table, of 100 disagrees with the geographical map of National IQ averages; It appears the just-slightly-darker-then-the-lightest-orange paints America's National IQ at 85-90. A disceprency, perhaps?

The map refers to indigenous populations. (I've wikilinked that word in the article, which should prevent it being missed.)--Nectar 04:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Ashkenazi Jews/other European Ethnicties and east asians updates 2 pioneer fund 3 Inuits 4 Italy is not part of N, C, E Europe 5 Table should be removed 5.1 table 13.1 6 Map of "indigenous" populations is misleading 7 timesonline

[edit] Ashkenazi Jews/other European Ethnicties and east asians updates

Hello. This is generic message I will be placing on several IQ-related atricles that have touched on Ashkenazim Jew IQ. Much is being written/compared/correlated on wikipedia regarding ashekenazim, much of which is incorrect given most modern research regarding it.

The modern interpreation of Ashkenazim IQ is that Jews have slightly higher verbal and mathematical IQ than the average white population and the same or lower IQ in perceptual and spatial. The below letter, compiled with data and written by Richard Lynn, shows that the IQ of diasporic A. Jews just in Verbal IQ is approximately 107. Not only is this substantially lower than many other studies in the past that relied on flawed non-representative samples and had small sample sizes, but it is merely the verbal IQ. One of the main trends of the A.Jew IQ has been very high verbal, with everything else being at least somewhat lower than that, meaning that this data suggests that the IQ of A.Jews may actually be significantly to slightly lower yet. In any event, most assertions being made on wikipedia are completely offbase and needs to be re-written with the understanding of these more recent studies and extrapolations of the experts in IQ, such as Lynn. I'm writing this in hopes people will take it open themselves to clean up wikis related to Ashkenazim since I really don't want to go to the trouble of running down every wiki and editing it myself.

Lynn has also now compiled a list of European nations/ethnicities and their respective IQs. The Dutch, Germans, and Poles all have approximately the same IQ according to the data as A.Jews, which throws even more monkey wrenchs into the wikis I've been reading, ones that say things like Jews success in field X could be linked to higher IQ. If this were the case, their would be way more German, Dutch, and Polish Nobel laureates. This is just an example. Basically, A.Jews, according to the accepted and recent interpretations, slightly exceed several European ethnicities and are essentially the same as many others. Further, now that Lynn has taken the time to break down IQs by ethnicities, all wikis generally related to IQ should include the data if they cite Ashkenazi IQ in the wiki. It smacks of some kind of racism to only single out A.Jews as an ethnicity and not others when we have the data on others. this seems to be a repeated bias I see on IQ-related wikis.

It should also be noted that both Flynn and Lynn have found that when correcting for the FLynn-effect, the East Asian IQ advantage drops to statistically negligble or close to. Again, this is the recent findings and wikis should reflect such. In any event, here is the cite/info-filled letter.

Dr. Richard Lynn The Intelligence of American Jews Sat Feb 14 01:24:26 2004

The Intelligence of American Jews Dr. Richard Lynn University of Ulster, Coleraine, Northern Ireland http://www.rlynn.co.uk

Summary. This paper provides new data on the theory that Jews have a higher average level of verbal intelligence than non-Jewish whites. The theory is considered by examining the vocabulary scores of Jews, non-Jewish whites, blacks and others obtained in the American General Social Surveys carried out by the National Opinion Research Centre in the years 1990-1996. Vocabulary size is a good measure of verbal intelligence. Jews obtained a significantly higher mean vocabulary score than non-Jewish whites, equivalent to an IQ advantage of 7.5 IQ points. The results confirm previous reports that the verbal IQ of American Jews is higher than that of non-Jewish whites.

Introduction

It has often been asserted that Jews have a higher average level of intelligence than non-Jewish whites of European origin. Herrnstein and Murray (1994, p.275) have written that "Whenever the subject of group differences comes up one of the questions sure to be asked is 'Are Jews really smarter than everyone else?' ” and their answer to this question is an affirmative. Eysenck (1995,p.159) asserted that "As far as Jews are concerned, there is no question that they score very highly on IQ tests". Levin (1997,p.132) has written that “in every society in which they have participated, Jews have eventually been recognised (and disliked for) their exceptional talent”. Seligman (1992, p.133) writes of "the extraordinarily high Jewish g levels”.

Despite these assertions, the purported high IQ of the Jews has never been systematically reviewed and is not even mentioned in recent textbooks on intelligence, such as those of Brody (1992) and Mackintosh (1998).

There have nevertheless been a number of studies of the intelligence of Jews in the United States. Among those who have discussed this question, there is a general consensus on two points. First, that Jews have a higher average IQ than gentile whites (this term is used for non-Jewish whites). Second, that Jews are stronger on verbal ability than on visualization and visual-spatial ability. Beyond this, there is a considerable range of conclusions. A review by MacDonald (1994,p.190) concludes that “taken together, the data suggest a mean IQ in the 117 range for Ashkenazi Jewish children, with a verbal IQ in the range of 125 and a performance IQ in the average range”. Storfer (1990,p.314) writes that “Jewish people, considered as a group, tend to excel in some cognitive domains – for example, verbal and numerical ability – but not in others, as witness their unexceptional performance on certain types of spatial or perceptual problems. Storfer concludes that American Jews have an average IQ of about 112 on the Stanford-Binet, largely a test of verbal ability.

Herrnstein and Murray (1994, p.275) reach a similar conclusion “A fair estimate seems to be that Jews in America and Britain have an overall IQ mean somewhere between a half and a full standard deviation above the mean, with the source of the difference concentrated in the verbal component” (1994, p.275). In the sample they analysed, Jews had an average IQ of 112.6 in relation to American whites on four verbal subtests (word knowledge, paragraph comprehension, arithmetic and mathematics) of the AFQT (Armed Forces Qualification Test). Their estimate of a Jewish advantage of between a half and a full standard deviation is equivalent to an IQ range of 7.5 to 15 IQ points. The estimates proposed by Storfer and Herrnstein and Murray are similar but much lower than that suggested by MacDonald (1994).

Despite the widespread consensus on the high Jewish verbal ability, not all studies have shown that Jews have a higher verbal IQ than gentiles. Furthermore, virtually all the existing studies are unsatisfactory because the samples have been unrepresentative, very small or for other reasons. An early study carried out in the mid-1920s of 702 Jewish and 1030 non-Jewish white 9-13 year olds tested with the Pintner-Cunningham test (a largely verbal test) by Hirsch (1926) found the Jewish children obtained a mean IQ only 1.5 IQ points higher than the gentiles. However, at this time a number of Jewish families spoke Yiddish as their first language and this would have handicapped the children to an unknown extent. A later study by Shuey (1942) of students entering Washington Square College in New York in 1935-7 tested with the American Council Psychological Examination, a test of verbal abilities (with subtests of completion, arithmetic, artificial language, analogies and opposites) found that 764 Jewish freshmen scored 1.2 IQ points below 236 non-Jewish whites. All the students were native born, possibly suggesting that the performance of the Jewish students was unlikely to have been depressed by unfamiliarity with the English language although some of these may still have been speaking Yiddish as their first language.

Furthermore, Jewish and gentile students at this college cannot be regarded as respresentative of their respective communities. A more recent study by Hennessy and Merrifield (1978) with an impressive sample size of 2,985 Jewish, gentile, black and Hispanic college bound high school seniors found a difference of less than 1 IQ point between Jews and gentiles on tests of verbal ability and reasoning but the sample may not have been representative of the populations.

Another problem with a number of the studies that have found that Jews have higher verbal IQs than gentiles is that several of them are based on very small sample sizes. For instance, Seligman (1990, p.130) writes that “Jewish verbal superiority appears unmatched in any other ethnic group. An often-quoted 1970 study performed by the Ann Arbor Institute for Social Research shows Jewish tenth-grade boys with an average verbal IQ equivalent of 112.8 (on the Stanford-Binet metric) about three quarters of a standard deviation above the average for non-Jewish white boys”. This is the Bachman (1970) study in which the number of Jewish boys was 65. In the Herrnstein and Murray (1994) data set in which Jews obtained a mean verbal IQ of 112.6, the sample size was 98 and was not drawn to be nationally representative. There is only one study of the intelligence of American Jews in the last half century which appears to be representative and had a reasonable sample size. This is Backman’s (1972) analysis of the data in Project Talent, a nationwide American survey of the abilities of 18 year olds carried out in 1960. The study had sample sizes of 1,236 Jews and 1,051 white gentiles (in addition to 488 blacks and 150 Orientals). IQs for six factors were calculated. The mean IQs of the Jews in relation to gentile white means of 100 and standard deviations of 15 were as follows: verbal knowledge (described as “a general factor, but primarily a measure of general information” and identifiable with Carroll’s (1993) gc or verbal comprehension factor - 107.8; English language – 99.5; mathematics – 109.7; visual reasoning (“a measure of reasoning with visual forms”) – 91.3; perceptual speed and accuracy – 102.2; memory (short term recall of verbal symbols) – 95.1. These results are consistent with the general consensus that Jews perform well on tests of verbal ability (although not of English language) and mathematics and less well on visual and spatial tests but the verbal IQ of 107.8 is towards the low end of the estimates of Jewish verbal ability suggested by Herrnstein and Murray of an IQ between 107.5 and 115. However, the differences in the IQs for the various abilities are so great as to raise doubts about the results.

The existing state of the research literature on the IQ of American Jews is therefore that some studies have shown that their verbal IQ is about the same as that of gentile whites while other studies have shown that it is considerably higher at 107.8 (Backman, 1972), 112.6 (Herrnstein and Murray, 1994) and 112.8 (Bachman, 1970). However, the last of two of these studies have sample sizes of fewer than 100. There is room for more data on the IQ of American Jews, and it is to the presentation of this that we now turn.

Method

The American National Opinion Research Center (NORC) in Chicago carries out annual surveys on approximately 1,500 individuals in continental United States (ie. excluding Hawaii and Alaska). The samples are representative of the adult population of those aged 18 years and over except that they exclude those who cannot speak English and those resident in institutions such as prisons and hospitals. Full details of the sampling procedures are given by Davis and Smith (1996).

The NORC surveys collect a vast amount of information about the respondents' opinions on a variety of topics and also on their demographic characteristics such as their income, education, age, ethnic group, religion, etc.etc. The first items of information of particular interest to us are the respondents' religion and ethnic group. An analysis of these enables us to categorise the respondents as Jewish, non-Jewish white, black and other. The second item of interest is the respondents' score on a 10 word vocabulary test. Vocabulary is a good measure of both general intelligence and verbal intelligence. For instance, in the standardisation sample of the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS) the vocabulary subtest correlates .75 with the Full Scale IQ, more highly than any other subtest (Wechsler,1958) and the Full Scale IQ is widely regarded as a good measure of general intelligence or Spearman’s g (Jensen, 1998). We are therefore able to examine the vocabulary scores as a measure of the verbal and general intelligence of the four religious/ethnic groups.

As noted, the annual NORC surveys are carried out on approximately 1,500 individuals. A single year does not therefore provide many Jews. To rectify this problem we can take the results of a number of years and combine them. This gives rise to a further problem that the vocabulary test has not been administered in every annual survey. From 1990 onwards, the vocabulary test was given in 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994 and 1996. The data collected in these years are used to analyse the vocabulary scores of the four ethnic/racial groups.

Results

The results are shown in Table 1. Reading from left to right, the columns show the numbers in the four groups, the mean vocabulary scores, standard deviations and conventional IQs based on a gentile white mean of 100 and standard deviation of 15. Thus, expressed in this way, the Jewish group obtains a mean IQ of 107.5, significantly higher than the gentile whites (t=5.82); the blacks obtain a mean IQ of 89.7, significantly lower than that of gentile whites (t=17.89); the “others” obtain a mean IQ of 98.6, not significantly different from that of gentile whites.

Table 1. Vocabulary scores and verbal IQs of American Jews, non-Jewish whites, blacks and others.

Ethnic Group N Mean Sd IQ Jews 150 7.32 2.16 107.5 Gentiles 5300 6.28 2.03 100.0 Blacks 806 4.96 1.94 89.7 Others 219 6.09 2.37 98.6

Discussion

The results provide seven points of interest. First, they confirm the previous studies showing that American Jews have a higher average verbal intelligence level than non-Jewish whites. Second, the 7.5 IQ point Jewish advantage is rather less than that generally proposed and found in the studies reviewed in the introduction finding that Jews have verbal IQs in the range of 110-113 but is closely similar to the figure of 107.8 obtained in the Bachman study which is arguably the most satisfactory of the previous studies in terms of the size and representativeness of the sample.

Third, the present data has strengths in comparison with a number of previous studies in so far as they are based on a nationally representative and reasonably large sample size of 150 Jews and 5,300 gentile whites. The very close similarity between the present result and the Bachman result suggests that the best reading of the verbal IQ of American Jews is 107.5 (present study) or 107.8 (Bachman). These figures are well below previous estimates of Jewish verbal ability.

Four, an average verbal IQ of 107.5 would confer a considerable advantage for American Jews in obtaining success in professional work. There would be approximately four times as many Jews with IQs above 130, compared with gentile whites. This may provide a plausible explain for the 4.8 over-representation of Jews listed in American reference books of the successful such as Who’s Who, American Men and Women of Science, The Directory of Directors, The Directory of Medical Specialists and the like and calculated by Weyl (1989).

Five, the small difference of 1.4 IQ points between the non-Jewish whites and the “other” category is not statistically significant or very informative. The category is largely made up of Hispanics and Asians, which are themselves a heterogeneous category. Hispanics have mean IQs below whites (e.g. Herrnstein and Murray,1994), East Asians have about the same IQ as whites (Flynn, 1992) or slightly higher than whites (Lynn,1995), while South Asians have mean IQs lower than those of whites according to the calculations of Flynn (1992). Aggregating these groups produces a combined mean very close to that of non-Jewish whites.

Six, despite some three quarters of a century of research and quite a number of papers on the intelligence of American Jews there is still a lot of useful research to be done on this question. Probably the best approach would be to analyse Jewish abilities in terms of the construct of g and of the eight second order cognitive factors in the taxonomy of intelligence proposed by Carroll (1993) and the similar taxonomy advanced by McGrew and Flanagan (1998). These second order factors are fluid intelligence (reasoning), crystallized intelligence (verbal comprehension and knowledge), general memory and learning, visualization, broad retrieval ability, cognitive speed and processing speed. Probably all that can be concluded with a fair degree of confidence at present is that Jews have high crystallized intelligence (verbal ability) of which the vocabulary test used in the present study is a good measure and that on this ability their IQ in relation to gentile whites is approximately 107.5. The Backman (1972) provides IQs for several of the second order factors (given in the introduction to this paper) but these are so variable and in some instances so low as to raise doubts about their credibility. It is difficult to credit that the Jewish sample could have a non-verbal reasoning IQ of 91.3, and at the same time a mathematical IQ (“quantitative reasoning” in the McGrew and Flanagan taxonomy) of 109.7. It is also difficult to credit that the Jewish sample could have a verbal IQ of 107.8 while at the same time having a short term verbal memory IQ of 95.1. These results are in need of checking and replication. At present it is doubtful whether any conclusion can be reached about the intelligence of American Jews except that their verbal intelligence or, if this is preferred, their gc (crystallized intelligence) is about 107.5.

And here is a link to the list of White ethnicities IQs: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2105519,00.html Ernham 03:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] pioneer fund

the pioneer fund paragraph is probably a WP:OR violation, unless the relevance can be linked to a reliable source saying it's relevant. --Rikurzhen 02:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

This policy in a nutshell:

Articles may not contain any previously unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position.

The conference threw into stark relief the increasing synergy between British and American racists. Those who had tired of the speeches or merely wished to stretch their legs could peruse the stalls at the back of the hall, many of which were giving away mountains of free literature. One of the first we encountered was the Occidental Quarterly stall run by James Russell, a member of its editorial board. Also on Occidental Quarterly’s board are Derek Turner and the controversial Leeds university don Frank Ellis. Coincidentally the stall next to Russell was that of Washington Summit Publishers (WSP) run by yet another Occidental Quarterly editorial board member, Louis Andrews of Augusta, Georgia. It is Andrews who manages the American distribution of Right Now!. WSP publishes Race Differences in Intelligence by Richard Lynn, emeritus professor at the University of Ulster, who like Taylor is a recipient of Pioneer Fund grants. WSP also reprints “classic” Aryan and eugenic tracts including a homily to the antisemitic philosopher Count de Gobineau as a pioneer of genetics.[1]Ultramarine 22:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I see this has been up for many months now and no one has substantiated any kind of link of the pioneer fund and related nonsense to this book. An admin may need to enforce a removal somehow. Removing it normally doesn't seem to workErnham 07:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Very simple: Richard Lynn is a Pioneer Fund grantee (one of the major ones). Pioneer Fund is known to involve itself in racially-motivated (i.e. racist) endeavours. RDiI is a book whose subject can be described as racial science. Therefore, considering the subject of the book and the views of the Pioneer Fund, the mention of his source of funding is relevant.--Ramdrake 13:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow. No POV there at all. Ernham 13:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right. All I mentioned above are facts, verifiable and citable. You can start by looking up the reference from Searchlight Magazine mentioned above.--Ramdrake 13:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

You can establish a relation between the grant and author, but not the book. You have no proof they are related or have any effect on each other. Unless, of course, the book states that XYZ research was paid for via the grant. So unless you can supply that kind of proof, you have nothing here. This wiki is about the BOOK, not the author. As I said before, your character assassination attempts belong on his own Wiki, not on the books wiki. You are doing nothing but spreading propaganda here.Ernham 13:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The material which is in the book is in great part Lynn's research, which is funded by the Pioneer Fund. This is no coincidence that the subject of the book and the goals of the Pioneer Fund line up so well. The book reflects both Lynn's and the Pioneer Fund's ideologies. Same way, it would be a bit incomplete to talk about Mein Kampf without mentioning the Nazi ideology (and I'm not saying Lynn's or the Pioneer Fund's ideologies have anything to do with Nazism).--Ramdrake 14:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

You speculate your speculating speculatively. Congrats. Now you are just missing a shred, a single shred -- of proof. Ernham 14:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Please acquaint yourself with the literature on the Pioneer Fund, with Lynn's research and perhaps re-read RDiI, and you will see the obvious connection. Comments like the one above are most unhelpful. You are giving every indication of wanting to argue just for the sake of argument. That isn't a helpful behaviour at Wikipedia.--Ramdrake 14:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inuits

What did this book say of the Inuits? Did it pick them out at random from nomadic life or from rural Inuits? Because fyi, the Inuit page mentions how Inuit communities have extremely high crime and violence rates, drug rates, suicide rates, poverty rates, unemployment rates, and over-crowding rates. It's inane to say that these Inuits who were tested were nomadic ones, ones who would have had little knowledge of the English language and skills needed for abstract thinking associated with IQ testing. Therefore, the Inuits they tested must have been from rural Inuit communities. And what does this book mention of the Flynn Effect and previous Inuit IQ's? Inuit communities are probably also more intelligent due to their isolated nature so things can remain more stable. Plus, considering all the severe problems with Inuit communities, not to mention: http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060805/fob6.asp http://www.brookings.edu/views/papers/dickens/20060619_IQ.pdf http://www.brookings.edu/views/papers/dickens/20060619_response.pdf, I'm guessing the IQ scores were lower in earlier decades, especially considering how the tests on the Khoisan were taken from such a small range of studies, not to mention how isolated the Khoisan live and how their language is so different. If Khoisan were retarded, it would be impossible to have any sort of society. Not to mention how complex Khoisan language is- it was developed specifically to deal with not scaring away animals, and their language must have been developed with knowledge of the acute sensory range of animals. That definately requires intelligence. Another thing is the sharp contrast of the Papuan aborigines of Papau New Guinea and the Australian Aborigines. They both fit into the same Australoid grouping, and those two ethnic groups are obviously very closely related. Yet Papuan Aborigines score in the 85-90 range, while this book says Australian Aborigines score borderline retarded. What's going on here?

The very nature and the instability of rural Inuit communities completely contradicts many of their findings about cold weather leading to evolutionary responses that result in greater community stability, empathy etc. I'd like to see what this book has to say of it.

fyi - inuit IQ scores do not trend up or down versus year of publication --Rikurzhen 03:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

That still doesn't answer my questions.

i mean this as kindly as possible: the questions you raise are interesting, but not relevant to writing the article. you could read the book if you want to find out more. --Rikurzhen 02:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I understand. But would it be possible for you to tell me what the book said of Inuits and Khoisan? And are you saying Inuit IQ scores were 91 even back in the 60's? Are you serious?

I have the data for the Inuit, but not the Khoisan. Note there are only 3 studies of the Khoisan reported by Lynn. --Rikurzhen 05:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Table  Row    Age       N       Test     IQ   Reference
11.1   1      6–11      469     DAM      89   Eells, 1933
11.1   2      6–11      105     DAM      92   Eells, 1933
11.1   3      6–9       174     CPM      94   MacArthur, 1965
11.1   4      10–15     326     SPM      84   MacArthur, 1965
11.1   5      25        122     CPM      78   Berry, 1966
11.1   6      Adults    186     CPMT     93   Kunce et al., 1967
11.1   7      10        87      SPM      91   MacArthur, 1967
11.1   8      11        50      MVK      90   Vernon, 1969
11.1   9      6–12      380     WISC     91   Kaplan et al., 1973
11.1   10     9–12      69      CPM      96   Taylor & Skanes, 1976a
11.1   11     7         22      WPPSI    93   Taylor & Skanes, 1976b
11.1   12     7–10      63      CPM      95   Taylor & Skanes, 1977
11.1   13     7–14      366     WISC-R   91   Wilgosh et al., 1986
11.1   14     5         110     CPM      92   Wright et al., 1996
11.1   15     15        261     CCF/MH   86   Grigorenko et al., 2004

Alright, but are these for rural inuits or nomadic ones? Obviously it would have to be rural ones, because they would have to be accustomed to written language and such to even perform IQ tests. What was the background on these Inuits? Another thing is how it's been observed that IQ scores show a decline among many people, where someone can score much higher at a young age while someone at later age scores much lower. It's been observed many times, even that one study of blacks who were adopted by white parents.

Oh, and by the way, do you and Nectar have some sort of instant messaging software to communicate by? I've noticed you two seem to do alot of work on the race and intelligence articles, and I'd like to discuss some things with you.

I'm guessing you know more about the Inuit than I do. I haven't read that chapter. I don't use IMs but we exchange emails thru the "email this user" function. If you sign up for an account, you can do that as well. --Rikurzhen 07:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italy is not part of N, C, E Europe

Italy is incorrectly grouped as part of N, C, E cluster of populations in the table of this article. Whoever has tabulated the data should correct the table, since Italy is not considered part of Central Europe either geographically or by the United Nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Europe

About 2/3s of italy is in central Europe, which is really just an arbitrary circle drawn in the middle of Europe, somewhat central on the alps. theoretically, it can be considered either. Much like Poland, which can be considered central or eastern.Ernham 03:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Table should be removed

The table of IQ scores violates the no new research policy. The groupings of populations into geographical subgroups is ad-hoc. The entry should be about the specific book and not about the derivative interpretations of the source material by the editors.

the table is from Malloy (2006), not from WP editors. Malloy discusses Italy in detail, purposefully creating the categories of of SE Europe and Spain/Portugal to exclude Italy. Table 13.1 from RDiI is very similar. --Rikurzhen 02:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is about Richard Lynn's book not about Malloy's interpretations of the book. The categories of Table 13.1 differ from those of Malloy (2006). Therefore Malloy has synthesized the original data of Lynn's book in a new manner, which is explicitly forbidden by Wikipedia policy. Either reproduce table 13.1, or drop the table from the article. Malloy's ad-hoc categories are not Wikipedia material; anyone who wants to read about them can follow the link to his review. --ReinesLicht

The article is about Lynn's book, and whatever has been published about it. If you were correct, WP couldn't include the opinions from book reviews in articles about books. --Rikurzhen 06:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The claim that Malloy's review can be included in the wikipedia entry is downright laughable. Using this "logic" any crackpot can do original research, post it in their blog, and then bypass wikipedia's no original new research policy. Hell, I could do my own tabulation, grouping, say, Finno-Ugrians separately. That is why original research should not be posted in Wikipedia. --ReinesLicht

it looks like Malloy got the idea for breaking down Europe as he does from Lynn's Table 3.4 (below). This should unambiguously resolve the question. --Rikurzhen 06:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Table 3.4. Brain size (cc) and intelligence in Europeans and South Asians
  Location          N. Studies Brain Size IQ
1 North America     34         1,322      100
2 N. C. & E. Europe 104        1,320      99
3 Spain & Portugal  6          1,315      97
4 Southeast Europe  40         1,312      92
...

This by no means resolves the problem, since grouping the IQ data in the same way as the brain size data represents synthesis of two different tables, and is thus forbidden by wikipedia policy. If Lynn wanted to represent the IQ data in Malloy's manner, he would have done so in Table 13.1. --ReinesLicht

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Malloy is the published source of the table. But even w/o Malloy, the table is simply the composite of two tables from RDI, which constitutes is an "obvious" presentation of the data from RDI. "Obvious" transformations of data are allowed by policy. --Rikurzhen 07:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

You can't have your cake and eat it too. It is claimed in the article that this table is an "approximate tally" by Malloy. Now you claim that it is a concatenation of the two tables. Either it is a concatenation of two tables or it is an "approximate tally" by Malloy. --ReinesLicht

Contrary to your claim, it is in fact both. --Rikurzhen 07:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect, since Malloy clearly states that: "This chart summarizes the data available in RDiI. It is my approximate tally. " The chart is Malloy's original research and does not belong in Wikipedia. If Lynn had a chart like that by all means post it. By all means post both 3.4 and 13.1 and any other chart in Lynn's book you want. You do not however any leg to stand on that Malloy's OWN chart (as admitted by himself) is not original new synthetic research. --ReinesLicht

You misunderstand WP:NOR. Malloy's analysis is published, thus citable, and not OR. Coincidently, the transformation required to produce Malloy's chart is itself so trivial that it would not constitute OR if Malloy (2006) did not exist. Table 13.1, below, as requested. --Rikurzhen 07:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

"Original research is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to material placed in articles by Wikipedia users that has not been previously published by a reliable source." ... "For example, the blog of an academic department is not merely a personal blog, but should be looked at in the totality of the source." I do not consider Gene Expression to be a reliable source, and certainly I won't take your word for it, since you post there. --ReinesLicht

Now it appears you are arguing for the sake of it. You concede that Malloy is sourced only for the sake of attributing proper authorship for his concatenation of two tables from RDI, a process which is trivial in nature, not as the source of an opinion or original argument. --Rikurzhen 07:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not see how you can claim that Malloy has concatenated anything. Table 13.1 splits South Asians into several groups and groups them with North Africans. It groups Europeans which are split by Malloy. It splits East Asians which are grouped by Malloy. You can't deny that Malloy has chosen -subjectively- to group populations together, sometimes adopting Lynn's groupings, and sometimes adopting his own. I suggest that Malloy's ad-hoc table be replaced by Table 13.1 which covers race differences in intelligence. Why should Malloy's groupings (e.g., joining East Asians where Lynn splits them, or splitting Europeans where Lynn joins them) be preferred to Lynn's own way of presenting his data? --ReinesLicht

As far as I can tell, Malloy chose amongst the various ways that Lynn has presented the data within RDI. Lynn presents the data in 10 chapters, corresponding with what he calls the 10 races. Here are some salient details:

• the raw data is presented in each chapter in a series of tables. there is usually more than one table per chapter.
• Lynn is sometimes inconsistent between Table 13.1 and the data tables in earlier chapters. For example, Lynn has 4 tables of East Asian data, but only reports 3 of them in 13.1. Likewise, with Lynn's various ways of breaking down Europeans.
• South Asians are with N. Africans in Chapt 6 of RDI, but there are only 5 (6?) samples from N. Africans.

The ideal solution is probably to rebuild table 13.1 from the chapter contents directly. --Rikurzhen 20:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] table 13.1

Table 13.1 Summary of race differences in intelligence from Lynn (2006)

Race	Location	N. Samples	N. Countries	IQ	Range
Bushmen	S. W. Africa	3	1	54	48–62
Aborigines	Australia	17	1	62	53–74
Aborigines	New Guinea	5	1	63	50–60
Sub-Saharan Africans	Africa	57	17	67	59–89
Sub-Saharan Africans	Caribbean	14	6	71	60–80
Sub-Saharan Africans	United States	29	1	85	77–93
Sub-Saharan Africans	Netherlands	7	1	85	83–88
Sub-Saharan Africans	Britain	18	1	86	73–94
S. Asians & N. Africans	South Asia	37	17	84	77–96
S. Asians & N. Africans	Britain	16	1	92	83–96
S. Asians & N. Africans	Europe	18	3	85	75–94
S. Asians & N. Africans	Africa	6	2	86	77–91
S. Asians & N. Africans	Fiji, etc.	3	3	85	82–89
Pacific Islanders	Pacific Islands	14	9	85	80–89
Pacific Islanders	New Zealand	12	1	90	81–96
Southeast Asians	South E. Asia	11	6	87	85–93
Southeast Asians	United States	7	3	93	87–96
Native Americans	North America	19	2	86	69–94
Native Americans	Latin America	10	5	86	79–92
Arctic Peoples	North America	15	2	91	78–96
Europeans	Europe	71	25	99	87–105
Europeans	Outside Europe	23	12	99	93–103
East Asians	East Asia	60	7	105	100–120
East Asians	United States	26	1	101	96–109
East Asians	Elsewhere	9	5	102	95–110

[edit] Map of "indigenous" populations is misleading

As far as I can tell, Lynn nowhere in his book labels population samples as indigenous or non-indigenous. I would be willing to reconsider if it is shown where such a classification is found in RDiI. The interpretation of whoever compiled the map represents a new synthesis of data, combining RDiI's data with an ad-hoc characterization of populations as indigenous or not, violating Wikipedia policy. E.g., Non-native Americans are taken not to be indigenous, whereas Bantu farmer populations and North African Arabs are supposedly indigenous. --ReinesLicht

My copy of RDI contains a map that looks like this one. --Rikurzhen 05:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] timesonline

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2105519,00.html

the data presented in this article is only from Buj et al 1981, as report by Lynn, not Lynn's averaging of more than one study --Rikurzhen 01:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ernham, see this note I left two weeks ago where I pointed out that the timesonline article is misreporting. I assume the numbers are accurate, but they are not a synthesis by Lynn. Rather, they are the result of a single study published in 1981. Lynn did aggregates by country in IQ and the Wealth of Nations and in a book newer than Race Differences in Intelligence, but not in RDI. --Rikurzhen 01:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

So be it. What does that have to do with the removal of the material? Are you saying the misreporting is attributing the IQ compilation to the wrong person? If so, welcome to science. He supports those figures, which is all that mattersErnham 03:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand. Lynn does not appear to believe that the average IQ of Germany is 107. In IQ and the Wealth of Nations he reported an average of 102 for Germany. Nothing in RDI reports averages per country. Thus by all measures the Timesonline figure is inappropriate for this article. --Rikurzhen 04:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Quite the contrary. When authors opinions about issues change in books they have written, or the world's knowledge of that issue has changed, it is always important to update the information. I'm still not following your issue about him using someone else study. Furtger, you have not supplied any cites or anything to substantiate your position in the least.Ernham 04:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Now that I pulled up the study in question that you claim was the only source of lynn's data, I find you must be mistaken or simply lying, one of the two. The numbers in that study show averages different from the one's given by the times article, some on the order of 2-3 points(ie no rounding errors explain the descrepancy)Ernham 04:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I take it you don't have a copy of RDI? Lynn's persistent misreporting of the Buj data is infamous. If you have a copy see Table 3.1 row 28 for the Germany figure. --Rikurzhen 04:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Buj's data differs somewhat from the numbers given by the Times as what Lynn claimed. You were the one that proposed he only used Buj as a source(while having no source to back up that claim). So, again, what is your issue?Ernham 04:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Lynn does not report the average IQ of Germany as 107 in RDI. Here are the values Lynn reports for Europeans in Germany: 99, 97, 101, 90, 105, 99, 99, 97, 107. I mention Buj because it appears that the Timesonline author took the Buj data as listed by Lynn to build that table. --Rikurzhen 04:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is the Buj data as reported by Lynn: Germany 107 Netherlands 107 Poland 106 Sweden 104 Italy 102 Austria 101 Portugal 101 Switzerland 101 Britain 100 Norway 100 Belgium 99 Denmark 99 Finland 99 Czech Rep. 98 Hungary 98 Spain 98 Ireland 97 Greece 95 Bulgaria 94 France 94

Umm, no

Germany: Buj actual data(109.3) Value given to same data by Lynn(109) Value quoted in the Times article (107)

Netherlands: Buj actual data(109.4) Value given to same data by Lynn(109) Value quoted in the Times article (107)

---

Not in my copy of RDI, which is no doubt from the same printing as the Timeonline authors'. --Rikurzhen 05:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC) Image:Lynn-RDI-clip-p21-germany.PNG

Where/how did you get that? The only thing i cpuld think of that would explain the descrepancy now is that that might be a flynn-corrected version?Ernham 05:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

When did you get your copy? Maybe you have a new version; maybe Lynn went back and made corrections. Regardless, Lynn doesn't report that the overall average IQ of Germany is 107 in RDI -- at least not in my copy. --Rikurzhen 05:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

There's another 2006 book by Lynn (IQ and Global Inequality) which would probably include an estimate for Germany, but that's not RDI. --05:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)