Talk:Queen's University Belfast

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Belfast, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the City of Belfast, Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale.If you are a member of the project, please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
High	This article is on a subject of High-importance for Belfast-related articles.
Article Grading: The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. WikiProject Belfast tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Belfast tasks: Places: Belfast Lough Landmarks: Belfast City Hall, Giants Ring, Cavehill, Albert Clock, St. Peter's Cathedral, Queen's University Belfast Parks and gardens: Events: People: Newspapers: Belfast Telegraph, Belfast Newsletter Streets: Falls Road, Shankill Road, Malone Road, Sandy Row, Whitewell Road Rivers: River Lagan Organisations: History: History of Belfast Edit or discuss this list.

 

Contents 1 Miscellaneous 2 Reputation 3 In Dutch 4 Gaelic translation of name? 5 Voting 6 Name of the University 7 Disambig header 8 Page move 9 Irish name/Alumni 10 Alumni in info box 11 Article location 12 Oldest university

[edit] Miscellaneous

Their is good reason for why the date of establishment should be named as 1908, this is the year of creation of the university rather than 1845 which is the year of creation of the college - a distinction should be made. Djegan 20:18, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To the person who placed the comment in the former table regarding the supression of "Queen" in front of Victoria's name been politically motivated; non use of such titles is a general precidence in wikipedia and please look on United Kingdom infobox if not convinced - the excess and improper use of titles is nothing more than a fetish. Their is a time and place for titles but not in a table that is intended to be a summary. If we were to put the correct title then the table would be half the article page lenght and width. The comment and table have been removed not to return. Djegan 22:59, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reputation

This section is a bit weaselly and implies that Queen's is a top-ten university. Can somebody provide their overall score from the THES (unfortunately it is subscription-only, or I'd do it myself). The Guardian's 2005 education supplement has Queen's a respectable 33rd out of 132, so I'll use this figure if nothing else is available. Tellkel 16:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

No objections so I have amendedTellkel 14:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] In Dutch

Has anyone seen the Dutch version of this page? I really do think they've got the wrong end of the stick... The Kitsch Gardener ^{be sociable}

In Holland, "Queens University" is a kind of motorcycle. Go figger. -lethe ^talk 16:42, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Dr Gordon Blair from Queen's University worked on the bike's engine, hence the QUB in the name Alastairward 15:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gaelic translation of name?

Why have a gaelic translation of the name, since this information's already contained in the gaelic entry? Moreover, what's the benefit of having this (& if we have one language why don't we translations for all languages?) --PdDemeter 17:00, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Using alternative language names is not unreasonable; when it can be justified, the university is located in Northern Ireland and increasingly these institutions are bilingual. I don't believe myself in adding Irish names to Irish articles for the sake of it, but believe that on balance, it is justified and reasonable here. Djegan 17:20, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

The name is used in the University by various societies (such as the Gaelic football and camogie clubs) and by the university press itself when publishing some books. If I'm not mistaken, the students union produced an Irish language version of its guidebook a year or two ago. At any rate, it is usual to provide non-English names in articles by which a university is known locally - take the University of Groningen/Rijksuniversiteit Groningen, or the University of Paris/Université de Paris.--Kwekubo 17:25, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough... I see your point --PdDemeter 13:33, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

If you look at all the other entries for universities north and south you will see that the only place the Irish name is mentioned is in the breakout box on the right hand side, when you consider that some of these universities use Irish as their 'official' language (or at least as an working language in some form), just call the Galway University main line. I think the line should be removed from the main paragraph. While it may be used by some of the societies it is used less by the university than any of other universities so for the sake of conformity it should be removed. As long as the Irish name is shown in the piece, ie as the title in the breakout box, that is enough for this English language entry. --Njg 22:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. When the above conversation took place the IrishUniInfobox template could not display Irish names (see diff); it does now, so no need to mention the name in the body text too. --Kwekubo 00:33, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, its not so much the bi-lingual nature of the university (if a minority language was being catered for it would more likely be Mandarin Chinese) but the legal requirements that public offices legally produce Irish language texts, possibly to do with the Good Friday Agreement. The Irish cultural societies aren't an official university office, so they're just doing as they see fit, most people attending them would be likely to be Irish so its more convienient for them Alastairward 11:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Irish is not an official language of QUB, though it is an official language of the students' union. If the Good Friday agreement is to be used as a justification then surely Ulster-Scots should be catered for also? I notice the University of Stirling article, for example does not translate to Scots GaelicBlowmonkey 15:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Its important to point out that the text does not imply any officialness. Ultimately if people want to add other language versions it might be prudent to show that the term has some prior use. Djegan 19:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

What about including the Irish translation in a reference to the Students' Union bilingual policy, which would be an appropriate place? What about an Irish Wikipedia? Blowmonkey 20:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

We have an Irish Wikipedia here. http://ga.wikipedia.org Quarkstorm 20:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of the University

Their is an unneccessary over use of the definitive article ("The") in this article when preceeding the current university and former universitys and colleges titles. Several times I have removed them only for them to reappear. Djegan 22:59, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quotation from the article "...sometimes known as Queen's University, Belfast..."; more like almost always and defacto. That paragraph will have to change. And lets not over do the definitive article, "the", either. Too busy now to implement. Djegan 19:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I have changed the article with this in mind, it must be noted that the use of "The" with university titles in British English is decreasing although it does recieve an occcassional false revivial. As a matter of course the title name of the article should always recieve most prominance, if wikipedia editors are not happy with this then by all means submitt a request to change the article title. Personally "Queen's University of Belfast" would be preferable in any case. Djegan 21:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

The official name is "Queen's University of Belfast", as confirmed by legal advice given to Queen's in the 1970s following an inspection of its charter. Therefore there is no justification for the use of the uppercase: "The Q...". If the definite article is used for grammatical purposes, it must be "the". In recent times, actually, Queen's corporate identity has attempted a rebranding as "Queen's University Belfast" (note no comma before Belfast).

Looking at the plethora of internal and external publications on my desk, "Queen's University Belfast" (no comma) is the prevalent name of the university. There's a dead link to a corporate guide to publications on the QUB main website, so I can't offer any more than this cite (from my desktop!) Alastairward 15:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig header

Is the disambiguation header been put in place for the sake of real disambiguation of links or as I suspect as a form of advertising for queen's colleges and universities? In the case of the latter it should be removed, place a link in see also or use a category - disambiguation should only be used where their is a real need for it. Djegan 14:15, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I didn't put the dab there, but modified it at one point when I had written the article on the historian Michael Roberts and was looking for Queen's University, Belfast at Queen's University and, annoyingly enough, was redirected to a completely different university, which I hadn't heard of, somewhere in North America... You might consider making Queen's University the disambiguation page. I thought about it, but was not aware of any possible conflicts I might get myself into by doing so, and since it wasn't important to me, I just made the dab header at both universities clearer (there was no reference to the Queen's University (disambiguation) page there, only the college page). (BTW, you should try to remove the white background below the shield.) Tupsharru 17:13, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am not particularily bothered about it but it would be preferrable to disambigs which can be clumbersome. I have introduced a new style table as part of recifying the issue and as the old style table was overburdensome and a closet for disparaging comments. Djegan 22:59, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

Why has this page been moved when the outcome of the vote was no consensus? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 09:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irish name/Alumni

The Irish name is given as "Ollscoil na Banríona, Béal Feirste". Does this not reflect the old university name, "Queen's University, Belfast"? Should it not be a translation of "Queen's University of Belfast"?

Plus, there should be a section on alumni. Not a list though. It doesn't need to mention every single person. A paragraph for politics, the arts, science etc, mentioning a few people in each. Don't have time to do it myself today, but if no one else steps in I'll do it over the next few days. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 13:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that translations are more a matter of convention rather than word-for-word correctness. Take for instance the sister-university, the National University of Ireland, which is conventionally presented as "Ollscoil na hÉireann" but a more faithful - but neither official nor conventional - translation would be "Ollscoil Náisiúnta na hÉireann". Djegan 21:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni in info box

Is this a useful or clear entry? For universities in the Republic where a clear legal record is needed for Senate elections this is meaningful data, but for other universities it's either guesswork or the number the university alumni office has on record (and the latter really says more about how good the alumni office is at maintaining contacts, and how easy a task that is, than anything else). Timrollpickering 21:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Certainly in the case of Northern Ireland less attention would be paid in keeping records up-to-date than the Republic of Ireland as their is no statutory requirement in the former to keep records for election purposes. Djegan 22:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to remove the stat from the box - I don't think this is clearcut data or useful for comparisons - most universities don't use it and the ones that do have a different method of gathering. Timrollpickering 23:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article location

One way or another the naming for all QUB articles and categories is a bit of mess:

At a glance, Queen's is one of few universities in the UK where the Wikipedia article isn't located at the current brand name of the institution. (See for example Lancaster University, Durham University, Imperial College London and Queen Mary, University of London, all of which follow the current institutional branding rather than the legal titles "University of Lancaster", "University of Durham", "Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine" and "Queen Mary & Westfield College".) I'm not too au fait with the convention for the Irish universities - most appear to be using the institution style but I'm not sure if they are different from the legal names, though University College Cork - National University of Ireland, Cork and University College Dublin - National University of Ireland, Dublin appear to be exceptions.

However we've also got a mixture of names in categories: Category:Queen's University of Belfast, Category:People associated with Queen's University, Belfast, Category:Academics of Queen's University of Belfast and Category:Alumni of Queen's University, Belfast. One way or another something needs to be renamed for consistency across contemporary artciles.

(The Parliamentary constituencies are also mixed - Queen's University, Belfast (UK Parliament constituency) and Queen's University of Belfast (Dáil Éireann constituency). However these are historic and it's probably best to use the official names for them. What discussion there's been on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Parliament constituencies#University seat names is inclining towards using the forms in F. W. S. Craig's books for the UK ones - i.e. Queen's University of Belfast.)

A glance at the QUB website leaves me unclear as to whether the comma is part of the brand name or not.

Thoughts? Timrollpickering 21:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

As a graduate of Queen's, all of the official paperwork I have uses "Queen's University Belfast" (no comma). I think that's the best title for the article. Cordless Larry 22:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

No-one else has commented on this. Unless there's objection, I'll moved this page to Queen's University Belfast in three days and then propose renaming all the relevant categories in line with it. Timrollpickering 16:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Not to sure about "Queen's University Belfast", but its used in the latest logo and website certainly. The problem with anything other than "Queen's University of Belfast" is that anon editors will keep reverting the article terminology, which has largely been avoided on the current location. Djegan 17:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Has that been a problem in the past? I don't know of anyone who actually calls it the "Queen's University of Belfast", and since the website etc. all use "Queen's University Belfast", I can't see any problems with naming the article that, particularly if we rename related articles and categories such as Category:Academics of Queen's University of Belfast. Cordless Larry 13:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The charter of the university uses "The Queen’s University of Belfast". I am not saying that "Queen's University Belfast" is unacceptable, simply pointing some issues out. Djegan 13:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's the charter name, though as I note above there are a lot of institutions where the charter name and the current brand name are different. Indeed looking at the other nineteen institutions in the Russell Group three do not use the full charter name (Imperial College London, London School of Economics, Newcastle University) whilst two others leave out the commas (King's College London, University College London). That's a good quarter of the Group and the Imperial, LSE and Newcastle cases are even more different from the charter names than QUB. All the Wikipedia articles follow the brand name and have had few problems. Timrollpickering 14:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oldest university

Regarding the issue surrounding the oldest university I believe that we should stick to the undisputable facts, this university is the oldest in existance in Northern Ireland. With regard to the island we really just dont know what the second oldest university is; it is likely to be either the National University of Ireland or Queen's or even both simulteously (depends on the charters and laws and how they were implemented as they were created in the same year; that much is clear).

With regard to Maynooth, the Pontifical University of Maynooth (associated with St. Patrick's College) was created in 1896; this was on foot of a pontifical charter and not any charter or law in legal force in Britain or Ireland. The National University of Ireland, Maynooth was created from certain faculties of St Patrick's (the non-theological ones created in the 1960s) and would have little continuance with the pontifical charter of 1896 and its degree giving powers s that was theological based.

In summary St Patrick's is a college and has always had to rely on a university in modern times for degrees be it the pontifical or national. It may seem a bit complicated at first but my basic premis is that their is no continuance of universities in Maynooth before 1997 apart from that of the unrecognised Pontifical University; thats why what I have outlined in the first paragraph, for not least continuity and simplicity, is prob the best explaination for this articles. Any comments? As I suggest that is the way forward. Djegan 14:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a rather similar debate surrounding which is the third oldest university in England with many similar issues (doors opening, Charters being granted and Acts of Parliament all giving different answers; some instutions not starting as universities from Day One; colleges reliant on a federal university). This led to several rounds of edits trying to assert an individual claim as definitive and at many stages different articles directly contradicted each other on this. The current solution there is to have a separate article on the claims (Third oldest university in England debate) with all the individul institution articles mentioning the debate but avoiding clearcut statements and instead linking to the article. Maybe this is a pattern to follow? Timrollpickering 15:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I have updated the article to reflect my proposal above. With respect to an article for Irish universities certainly it is ambiguous as to what is the second oldest university and it may even enter the realm of original research, for instance the NUI and QUB where created in the same year and thus immediately tie the second oldest university place; but it is not clear if they were created simultaneous or not. On the other hand the University of Limerick and Dublin City University were created on the same day in 1989 but it is widely known and stated that the former was created first {abeit by several hours as the respective enabling legislation was signed by the Minister in the respective cities}.

In any proposed article, like the English article, their could also be a corressponding section "The definition of "Ireland"" to furthur complicate matters, re Names of the Irish state! Djegan 01:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)