Talk:Punk rock

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Contents

[edit] Archives

[edit] Ramones first Punk Band

It's not really point of view, they are widely considered to be the first, and I've got plenty of sources that consider them that. What else do you want? Also I find the article misleading the way it says it originated in england, before it says United States. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hoponpop69 (talk • contribs) 29 October 2006.

Seems to me that trying to pin down a first punk band is a pointless exercise. It's not like things went suddenly from non-punk to punk. The Ramones weren't "punk" from the moment they started; early Jonathan Richman has a lot in common with punk; etc. - Jmabel | Talk 05:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes but this page should give a history of the genre, and things like Richman are considered proto punk, where as the Ramones are commonly considered as the original punk rock band. It seems like a history of the genre would be inadequite without pointing out their place in history.-HP69

Precursors to punk were all over the place. The Velvet Underground and The Stooges are normally cited as examples of proto-punk, but there were pub rock bands, glam bands and all sorts of musicians who had a lot in common with punk even in the late sixties. Even a 7-minute-solo psychedelic band, The Doors, recorded a song that sounds a lot like a precursor to punk (Break on Through (To the Other Side)), and John Lydon was influenced by Captain Beefheart and Can. Where did punk start? Nowhere really; it just evolved out of the music that was floating around at the time. --Switch 09:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
It's more like the Ramones were the first band that cemented many of the traits that define punk as a genre in one place. As everyone else has said, a lot of things added to the creation of the genre. WesleyDodds 13:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

If I was going to single out one proto-punk band, the immediate ancestor of it all, it would be the New York Dolls. Firstly because of their influence in America and UK (Pistols cited them as a major influence), becuase their members went on to be involved in other punk bands such as the Heartbreakers and the Voidoids, and their style and sound says alot of things early punk said, eg...they dressed up like teenage girls because they didn't care about fitting in and wanted to make a statement that would outrage conservatives, and their sound was very reminiscent of pre-progressive rock and roll. The Stooges are an awesome band, but their psychadelic, drawn out songs do not represent what punk represented. The pop/avant garde sound of the velvets is not what punk is either. By this arguement, the Ramones are a very good contender for the first punk band, becuase they took the new york dolls and then went forward one more step towards punk rock. They ditched the glam, and made short, simple, powerful and fast songs. By comparison, break on through sounds lifeless and wet. Ramones songs kept their energy from start to finish. Yes they had slow songs like 'I Wanna be your Boyfriend' on their first album, but remember on that album they had so many songs that define punk rock...such as Blitzkreig Bop, Judy is a Punk, Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue, Loudmouth, 53rd and 3rd. To contradict Jambel, Ramones WERE punk from when they first started. Even if the term was not used in that sense at the time. I do understand that there are earlier bands that can be considered punk, but they either didn't release anything or whatever they did release it's been gone and buried for decades (eg Dictators). They did not make punk everything that it is, but they were the inspiration for many that did. (Justinboden86 02:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC))

To clarify: The Ramones were punk by the time they recorded, but by their own accounts, it took them some time to find their sound. - Jmabel | Talk 06:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

You Americans are wasting your time. The Sex Pistols were the first Punk band and everyone knows it. So shut it, accept it and move on..jcleary 01:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guys...

"Some, such as The Misfits (from New Jersey), Black Flag (from Los Angeles), Stiff Little Fingers (from Northern Ireland), and Crass (from Essex)."

That sentence makes no sense. If you want to change the paragraph, edit the list of bands, but leave the sentence structure as it is (see below), or edit it in a way that it will still actually make sense.

"Some, such as The Misfits (from New Jersey), Black Flag (from Los Angeles), Stiff Little Fingers (from Northern Ireland), and Crass (from Essex) would lead the move away from the original sound of punk rock and towards the hardcore subgenre."

Personally, I think all those bands influenced hardcore somewhat, and sound more like hardcore than the Pistols, but please don't make rash edits guys. Switch 03:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-romantic?

The article has it that: Others were violent or anti-romantic in depictions of sex and love, such as The Voidoids' "Love Comes in Spurts". Now, Love comes in Spurts is for me the most poignant song ever written about the unbearable search for love. If you ask me for a romantic song, I'll give you Love Comes in Spurts. To call it anti-romantic is to misunderstand it to the highest degree. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.108.108.237 (talk • contribs) 7 November 2006.

[edit] Weasely POV

"While it is thought that the style of punk from the 1970s had a decline in the 1980s…" - Jmabel | Talk 00:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's true, isn't it? Most of the punk bands went in a more experimental or pop direction in the 80s, and the bands that "stayed" punk were mostly hardcore, weren't they? --Switch 02:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the intention of the sentence, but the phrasing could be cleaned up. There was a popular belief for a while that "Punk [Was] Dead". That can probably be cited easily. WesleyDodds 05:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Limp ending

The paragraph beginning "Many of the popular indie rock bands of the 2000s…" is a very limp ending. Punk rock should not end with a fadeout. - Jmabel | Talk 00:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

That was added a few weeks back and I don't feel it belongs; it's rather tacked-on. WesleyDodds 05:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] So-Cal

I strongly believe that So-Cal is it's own type of rock and sort of like a mixture between Punk Rock and Pop Punk (think One Buck Short, Green Day, Weezer and Simple Plan) and I think that there should be a page titled 'So-Cal Rock' about this subgenre. Give me sum feedback, what do you thinks people!! Citikiwi 03:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Nothing has ever been written about such a genre, Weezer isn't punk or pop-punk, and Green Day and Simple Plan aren't even from Southern California. WesleyDodds 05:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
So-Cal does have a specific sound which is more poppy but I don't think it's an established genre. I think Offspring is a better example though than the ones you gave. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 06:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
SoCal is just really pop punk, a lot like grunge was more or less synonymous with Seattle. One Buck Short, Green Day and Simple Plan aren't from Southern California (OBS and SP aren't even from the United States), and Weezer are borderline pop punk at best. Simple Plan sound more like recent "teenybopper" pop punk bands, Green Day sound similar to SoCal pop punk (and more recently like mainstream rock), Weezer are geek rock/power pop, and One Buck Short sound like a modern Ramones counterpart. They don't have much in common, and certainly not enough to be their own genre apart from other pop punk. -Switch 05:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archive Time

I think it's about time for an archive, as the discussion pasge is getting long and there don't seem to be any contreversial arguements hapening at the moment. I'm not sure how to do it myself so if someone wants to step in for me that would be appreciated. Any objections? (58.105.49.186 03:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC))

I went and archived through the end of October. I don't want to kill anything so recent that many people may not have had a chance to see it. - Jmabel | Talk 06:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the way of the world

It's the way of the world, unfortunately, and inevitable of articles as broad as this, but this page has built suffocating cruft. Looking though the history I see an number of respected editors, and I'd request a copy edit from them. Sooner or later this article is going to come up for WP:FAR, and in its current state, it's going to fail IMO. A few of points that need attention:

  • Confused Tense - article mixes is/was/have/had/are/were throughout.
  • Regionalism - UK? USA? Australia? Kazakhstan? Maybe attribute genesis to a number of concurrent sources and move on (I know this has been well debated, but County Cork is still under represented in this article, ye bastards)
  • Some trite has slipped in:
    • "Most punk songs have a verse-chorus form and a 4/4 time signature"
    • "Typical instruments: Vocals - Guitar - Bass - Drums"
    • "with a snare drum, one mounted or standing tom, one floor tom, one bass drum, hi-hats, one or two crash cymbals and a ride cymbal."
    • 2Punk songs are normally about two and a half minutes long"
  • Listy - to quote sentance fragments:
    • "with origins in the..."
    • "The cities of..."
    • "Songs such as..."
    • "United States bands of the mid-1960s such as..."
    • "overt sexuality and political confrontation of artists such as..."
    • "art rock acts of the early 1970s, including ..."
    • against 1970s popular music such as..."
    • "role models for the new groups, such as ..."
    • "had appeared in Ohio, including..."
    • "formed independently in other locations, such as..."
    • "had formed their own bands, including..."
    • "by those mentioned above. These included..."
    • "This reggae influence is evident in much of the music of..."
    • "and less minimalist, with bands such as..."
    • "polished production, notably bands such as..."
    • "dangerous" style in the early 1980s, typified by artists such as..."
    • "Early hardcore bands include..."
    • "and the movement developed via ..."
    • "diverse post-punk bands emerged, such as..."
    • "the emerging indie scene and independent record labels such as..."
    • "This movement featured bands such as...v
    • "Along with the Ramones, such bands as the..."
    • "As alternative bands like..."
    • "indie labels like..."
    • "bands labelled as pop punk include..."
    • "which continued into the 2000s with bands like..."
    • "and early punk rock. Examples include ..." - Coil00 22:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't understand why it is "trite" to explain concepts like typical punk song structures and instrumentation, and why it is "trite" to list a few examples of things like bands and record labels that typify a certain term or subgenre. I'm not sure why it's bad to give examples in order to elaborate on a topic and to give context. Please explain. Spylab 16:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I was thinking that stating punk instrumentation comprises vocals, guitar, bass & drums, and is formed around a verse-chorus structure doesn't properly differentiate it from other genres. But maybe 'trite' is overstating the point, and i've stuck the comment.
    • I wasn't implying that the lists are trite, nor that list shouldn't be used. There's just too many in this article, IMO, and they over weigh the content. Reading back over the article, perhalps expanding the text in certain sections would help redress this. - Coil00 00:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Refocus and Restructure

There have been alot of arguements and contreversy over how punk rock originated, and this is because the article is structured poorly. The chronological organisation of the article does not represent the differences between the New York and London scenes, and by its structure forces one scene to be acknowledged more than the other. Jmbael gave me an idea when he said in the discussion that early punk was more of a scene than a sound. I think he is spot on and I propose that we retitle the history section from the origins and early emergence to 'The New York Scene' and 'The London Scene'. A history of early punk that focuses on location rather than a chronological structure makes more sense because:

-With the New York Scene, it can be better explained that although artists like Blondie and Patti Smith do not have the punk 'sound,' they were integral to the punk scene. David Bowie could also be discussed.
  • David Bowie was English. You do know this, yes? He was as much an influence on the Stranglers and the Pistols as the New York Dolls or the Ramones. -Switch t 09:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
-Although English punk bands took important influences from the US (eg, Clash have cited the Ramones, Pistols have cited Alice Cooper and New York Dolls), they also took influences from their own country. eg reggae.
-The scenes were so different, and discussing them together makes so much confusion. The New York scene was older and more influential, but the London one was so much more explosive.
-With the scenes seperated, fans of London punk can feel free to talk about without it getting reverted by a fan of New York punk, who seem to dominate this article *no offense meant, I myself prefer New York punk to London punk*. They can concentrate on how London defined the characteristics of punk.
-Similarly, the New York scene can be used to emphasis how new york shaped the punk sound.
-It would also make more sense to the average wikipedia user who doesn't know what punk is. Most people assume punk started in London, and although this isn't true London did define alot of what punk is. They would immediately notice something that needs to be understood first to understand punk, that it emerged from two different places that often had conflicting goals, ideas and attitudes. Modern punk is the synthesis of these two scenes.
-As for the Australian scene, which would become very neglected here, it still does not merit its own title when you consider the two most prominant Australian punk bands: Radio Birdman and the Saints. The band's name Radio Birdman comes from a Stooges song, and the band covered the Stooges song 'TV Eye'. The Saints were also heavily influenced by the Stooges and you can hear a New York accent on their song 'I'm Stranded' (especially the part where he sings 'alright'). Although both these bands formed in 74, they were still influenced by the New York scene, rather than developing the punk sound independently.
  • The Saints' year of formation is a point of contention I've been meaning to bring up; it has been reported that they formed as early as 72 and as late as 77. Both bands were influenced by the '60s-to-early-'70s garage rock of bands like the MC5 and The Stooges (both from Michigan), not by the NY punk scene. See the citation in the article from the Saints, talking about their first exposure to the Ramones. -Switch t 09:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


I think we should keep the latter part of the article unchanged (although it does need to be expanded), in its chronological order. This is because after 77 punk become more of a sound than a scene. Blondie were reclassified as New Wave, and not long after hardcore emerged. Punk became an international phenonemon, and was no longer limited to one or two cities. Today a punk band forming now would get as much influenced by their NOFX cds than by their local scene. You no longer have to go to CBGBs to see a punk band.

I will let some people discuss this before I go ahead and edit the main page, but I believe it is necessary in order to simplify and clarify the article from what is currently a confusing, jumbled and chaotic piece. (Justinboden86 01:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC))

I like the idea, although it is a little confused. The Australian scene, for example, was very small and more or less merged with the English scene with the release of "(I'm) Stranded". The New York scene was a development of the garage rock that came before it, that was largely inspired by early rock 'n' roll and psychedelic bands like The Doors, while the London scene was comprised of vastly different influences (pub rock, ska, reggae, NY punk, glam rock, etc.). -Switch t 09:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


I think what we should do is separate the "Origins" and "Early emergence" sections into three smaller subsections; "United States" (going over the MC5 and Stooges, their influences on what became the NY scene, and the NY scene itself), "United Kingdom" (going over Bowie, Stranglers, The Strand beoming Sex Pistols, etc.) and "Other scenes" (Sydney & Brisbane in Australia, and possibly other scenes like France & Germany, who were influential but I know little about). Anyone like it? -Switch t 14:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions, Switch. First of all, I didn't explain myself but there are reasons I mentioned David Bowie as involved with the New York scene. I know he is British, of course, but before he went to New York he was mostly had the image of a hippy/country singer. He had a long unsuccessful career before he met the New York Dolls and started to mould the Ziggy Stardust personality. Not that he wasn't a weirdo before he went to New York, but his image benefitted from meeting lots of other people who were also weirdos. As for the Saints, first of all I know the stooges and the five where from Michigan, but when I talk about New York I tend to include places like Michigan and Conneticut and Boston. This is becuase I'm from australia. But I wouldn't wanna talk about the whole of the US, because the West Coast influence was minimal until the hardcore scene, which I would want to discuss seperately from the formation of punk. I mean I think they existed at a time when english punk and US punk had started to merge and they were listening to the pistols as much as they were listening to the ramones. The doors had a big influence and the ramones loved california beach pop but punk was mostly an eastern phenonemon for the first few years. So getting back to the Saints, no they weren't influenced by New York but they were heavily influenced by music from the east US. And the whole scene in Australia was a little...sparse. It still is today, unfortunately. And yeah I did read that stuff about them and the ramones, which is why I never calimed they were influenced by the Ramones but did claim they were influenced by the stooges.
But thanks for looking over it, I was keen to see what you and a few others would say, I hope you see sense in making it very clear to other Wikipedians that punk rock developed out of two scenes and to an extent, picked and chose its characteristics and sounds from those scenes. And to also make it clear that punk rock has two legitimate parents, London and New York(& Co.), whereas the current article implies New York(etc) is the only parent, and London just tacked some stuff onto it later. (Justinboden86 23:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC))

I think it's fine the way it is, although it could stand to have a little bit more about protopunk and how these various bands set the stage for punk. WesleyDodds 08:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd be interested in looking at the alternative of splitting the scenes, down to about '77. Could we maybe sandbox this and then make a decision?
2 other on-topic remarks:
  1. Michigan & Northern Ohio were a very distinct scene, almost as culturally removed from NY as Ireland from London. New Yorkers would laugh to hear them included in "the East", though a Californian might consider them that.
  2. I don't see any element of country in pre-Ziggy Bowie. He was seen as sort of a hippie Anthony Newley with intellectual pretensions.

And an off-topic remark I can't resist, because of earlier discussion on precursors. As I'm writing, I'm listening to a punk show, Sonic Reducer on KEXP, which this week is focused on women in punk. The DJ threw in Suzi Quattro's "48 Crash" and, y'know, if they'd stopped before the bridge it would be one fine 2-minute punk song. Chinn and Chapman. Go figure. - Jmabel | Talk 06:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll have to take your point about Michigan and New York, but I always thought that Iggy Pop, MC5 etc where heavily involved with the New York punk scene. Their record label was from New York, at the very least (Elektra, although to be fair the Doors where Californian and also signed to Elektra). Personally I would consider them close enough and similar enough to be the opposite poles of the same scene, rather than two distinct and individual scenes. But perhaps it would make more sense to refer to it all under 'The American Scene.' I spose that way you could even include Bad Brains from Washington D.C.
As for calling Bowie country, I say that only because of something I read; I have never listened to pre-Ziggy Bowie becuase his music is not really my cup of tea. But I do have this quote from Legs McNeil's oral history "Please Kill Me" (of course not the most accurate source) where Jayne/Wayne County saw Bowie performing at a country club in London: 'We'd heard this David Bowie was supposed to be adrogynous and everything, but then he came out with long hair, folky clothes, and sat on a stool and played folk songs." (p95 the penguin, 1997 edition). And aparently he used to be in a folk band called 'Feathers' with Hermione Farthingale and John Hutchinson. So when I said country I meant to say folk, sorry for the misunderstanding. (Justinboden86 05:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC))

Bowie has never been a "country" artist. He had some elements of folk rock in his music early on however. - 11:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this last. There were elements of folk in early Bowie, some (especially vocally) from the British folk revival, some (more in his song composition) via Dylan et.al. Still, at the time, he sounded more comfortable singing Jacques Brel.
Iggy Pop, MC5: I hesitate to go out on a limb. Certainly everyone in the NYC punk scene knew their music. But southern Michigan/Northern Ohio (and even extending east as far as Pittsburgh) is a very culturally different place, and not just in punk music (although, of course, as time goes on, the urban U.S. steadily becomes more homogeneous). We are talking about a place almost as different from New York as New York is from London.
Anyway, are you interested in sandboxing the alternative structure? - Jmabel | Talk 01:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah. I'll get onto it soon. (Justinboden86 09:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] groups not mentioned

shouldnt there be more info about the Velvet Underground, not to mention Misfits or Alec Empire AlexOvShaolin 03:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The Misfits contributed little to punk apart from introducing the horror punk subgenre, and don't really warrant more than one mention. The Velvet Underground are not punk, but they are mentioned twice as an important influence. Alec Empire probably wasn't even walking or talking when punk took off. -Switch t 08:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The Velvet Underground were an important precursor to punk none-the-less and groups Melt-Banana and Alec Empire represent the continuation of punk rock. --AlexOvShaolin 01:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
No one's disputing the former but as mentioned they're already talked about. As for the latter there are much, much more notable groups mentioned that play a part in the continued development of punk rock. WesleyDodds 14:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who rewrote history to say Punk started in the USA?

The Ramones were mummy's boys in their first leather jacket. Grease? What year was this? Someone said they might be classed as punk. Don't make me laugh!! Gloves off. Punk was UK. From London to Inverness punk rocked the UK, changed it, no-one denies that. You Americans had no interest in it, didn't buy the records, didn't adopt the culture, the fashion... Not until 30 years later are you interested.... Sad, sad, sad... You American wikipedians want to lay claim to the coolest thing but you will never understand it. Tough luck. jcleary 02:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)\

hmmmm, deja vu. This has already been discussed in the archives but I guess it can be adressed again, obviously you weren't convinced the first time round, Jcleary. Look, punk is a subjective term so it's not easy to define something as being punk or not being punk. Some people may consider the pixies to be punk, but not the velvet underground. or think NOFX aren't punk but argue that Blondie was. However, I've got the two ramones album and their earlier demos, and it has a lot in common with nevermind the bollucks. Like the pistols, they stirred people up by doing stuff like singing about Nazis (Today your love, tomorrow the world), about Charles Manson (Glad to See you Go....A song Dee Dee wrote about his girlfriend after she died). They were nihilistic (Loudmouth, Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue). They played short, powerful and aggressive songs like, of course, Blitzkrieg Bop and Judy is a Punk. They are a punk rock band. And, yes, punk had a massive influence on England, it spread like wildfire across the country, not unlike the way the hippie culture spread across the US in the sixties. It made people talk, it made people look at where the country was and where it was heading and at what cost. It didn't explode in america, but there were still so many punks from there who put all their energy into the genre even if they did not get much out of it. Argueable all american punk bands who have been successful have had to abandon their punk roots to achieve that success (eg Blondie, Offspring). You also have to acknoledge that these american punk bands had an influence on the english punk bands. The Damned wore ramones tshirts for their 'Smash it up' single. Clash aren't afraid to admit the influence ramones had on their band. Pistols paid homage to the new york dolls (see the filth and the fury DVD, where the actual band members get to express their opinion rather than just dickhead maclaren). American bands were calling themselves punk, with a similar sound the the english punk bands, but with a different look and a different impact. And they were doing it first. Where's the problem? (Justinboden86 04:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Self-evident?

Self-evidence is not part of an encyclopedia. Please add a citation as requested, instead of reverting a legitimate request for a citation. Your original research (WP:NOR is not part of Wikipedia, and culturally relevant subjects need just as much research and support as other topics, whether it is your pet or not. There are some cases where I think self-evident won't cut it, punk rock is not one of them, it's been around a long time and is well researched. KP Botany 14:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

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