Talk:Punjabi people

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[edit] Complete Re-think

I think we need to completely change this page. Ive realised that calling Punjabis a race is like calling Californians a race, they are not a single coherent ethnic group like han chinese of persian, they are a whole load of different tribes all united by a common langauge, religeon, and region and perhaps culture; one only needs to look at to see that punjabis are not a race but a collection of tribes. the example ive chosen is bad, california is not an historical region like punjab (it can hardly claim to have a history for that matter) but ive honestly not found anyother historical region on earth where so many ethnic groups exist side by side and where one isnt a majority. for that reason punjabis if anything should be a social group rather than a racial one.

now many of you *might* be saying "yes, but they all look the same" or something, but i think i can prove to you if punjabi *were* an racial group it would be the most heterogeneous/varied. the **average** punjabi is probably fairer than the average indian, however unlike the Han Chinese punjabi features, if they were a racial group, would vary from. Jalander in the Indian Punjab in parts the people tend to have features and genes more simalar to a Southern Indian.

Mongoloid e.g. [1], [Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan] to:

South Indian e.g. [2], [3], [4] to

North West Indian/Arab/Average-ish e.g. [5],[6], [7] to

White e.g. [8], [9], [10], [11]

i think this also changes with geography, with the north and west being more "white", the central areas being "average", and south east being "dravidian".

Anyway what i suggest is to change this page from being a racial group page to a linguistic and cultural group. becuase if you were to take punjabis as a race, what would the creteria? how does one define punjabi?

Is Amir Khan a Janjua first or a Punjabi first?

Is Iftikhar Khan a Minhas first or a Punjabi first?

Is Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi a Jat first or a Punjabi first?

Regardez the more controvertial ones come

(Ive argued this one before, but lost :() Is Imran Khan a Pahstun Niazi first or a Punjabi first?

Is Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan an Afghan first or a Punjabi first?

et ceteraaar, et ceteraaar.

Point recap:

1)Punjabi is more of a cultural and linguistic group rather than racial group

2)Punjabis show a wide range of physical features ranging from east asian to close to nordic.

3)If in changed circumstances punjabis WERE an ethnic group, how would one go about defining what constitutes someone to be called Punjabi? Aarandir 11:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

thanks for the name change, how about making a disambiguation page if one searches for just "punjabi" becuase right now it goes straigh to the punjabi language. Aarandir 10:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I presume, most people that look for 'Punjabi' are looking for the language. There is a disambiguation page already available from the Punjabi language page. You will need to get an admin to put it as the main Punjabi page. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 12:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Punjabis in Britian

theres got to be at least a million 500,000 pakistani punjabis (unless u count mirpuris as kashmiris even though thier mother toung is punjabi) 500,000 indian sikhs Aarandir 20:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC) im sure there have to be definatly around a million perhaps even more punjabis in the UK. unless as i said before u dont take the 700,000 pakistanis (who are mostly mirpuris) to be kashmiris.

I was unable to find any statistics that showed the exact number in the UK, so I put in what was 'officially' rendered and given in various websites and left speculation at the door. If you have a referenced figure, then by all means add it. Some 70% of Pakistani-British people are of Punjabi decent. Also, it might help to keep this fair in that if people identify themselves as one group, then it's probably more accurate to go with that perspective as we aren't in a position to decide with which group people should and should identify themselves with. Tombseye 20:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

ok, but leave it at 1,000,000 even though its probably more. number of sikhs 301,000 [12]. Ive got a number on pakistanis in england and wales but scotland doesnt want to reveal her secrets on ethnic origin [13] the number of pakistanis in england and wales is 823,048... of which im assuming 750,000 are punjabis... also this is on a complete tangent but im surprised to hear the chinese are infact the fasting growing ethnic group in england! [14] anyway there you go are the numbers. soo its 750,000 +301,000 1,051,000 punjabis in the UK! Aarandir 23:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Cleanup

I've just done a quick cleanup and added reference tags. I've currently removed the Salwar Kameez image because as far as I'm aware, men don't wear the Salwar Kameez? I've seen men wear a Kurta Pyjama but not a Salwar Kameez.

Also, I've noticed that much of the census information doesn't really match with the figures listed (for example, Punjabi speakers in India). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 01:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

No... trust me... men do wear shalwar kameez! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aarandir (talk • contribs).
Hello, I travelled to the country about 2 years ago and I saw the shalwar everywhere. Some variation of the other dress type you refer to seems common in some parts of rural Sindh. I assumed the people in the picture were Muslim given the child's headcap as well. As to keeping the picture or not, I have no idea where it's from etc., but I think this page could use a lot more pictures and the more the better. Tombseye 20:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes the men in that picture were definately Muslim. My understanding of Indian Punjab at least is that women wear the Salwar Kameez. The men's version has always been known as a Kurta Pyjama?
I definately think pictures of more Punjabis are needed. The Salwar Kameez is definately worn by virtually all Punjabi women (either side of the border).
On a side-point, what are we using to define separate languages? Are we treating Hindki, Multani (Seraiki) and Dogri as different languages - i.e. not dialects of Punjabi? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I saw the men wearing the same as well as western clothing. I imagine in rural areas the kurta is worn as in Sind, but the cities appear to reflect the Shalwar or western clothing and since the shalwar is the national dress I imagine it's quite common. As for the languages, well, I was thinking that the dialects issue is debateable. I recently edited the Catalan people page and I've been to Spain myself and never realized that the Valencians do not consider themselves Catalan and point to their differences in language, however slight to a foreigner such as myself. Catalan and Valencian are mutually intelligible, but are slightly different and include greater historical interaction between Valencian and Castillian. Now as I understand it, Siraiki for example is a mixture of Punjabi and Sindhi and thus by most counts a different language, while Hindko also is considered a different language. In keeping with most other peoples pages, I was thinking we go with a specific language that people identify the group with and not overlapping groups who probably should get their own pages at some point. Of course mentioning this issue is perfectly reasonable, but delegating them to dialectical status may either offend those said peoples OR simply not reflect the common academic division of the languages, however similar they might be. Tombseye 20:38, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the language debate

All of the languages listed are considered closely related to Punjabi, but are considered by their speakers and by linguists as possibly different languages. Punjabi in this case in this article should reflect not just the provinces, but the people who identify themselves as Punjabis. If these are say either Siraikis etc., then they aren't technically Punjabis, but a separate group. Multani is simply linked to the Siraiki page and thus the problem. Keeping it in the related section is also in keeping with other similar peoples pages as, for example, on the Catalan people page, Valencian is rendered as related and not a dialect of Catalan even though it's mutually intelligible. The same applies here. Tombseye 23:10, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Punjab

Punj and Aab are Persian and not Punjabi word. The word for five in Punjabi is Paanch and the word for water is Paani. If you mix the two, you don't get Punjab, but Paanchpaani. ~~

Paanch is Hindi for 5, in Punjabi it is Punj. And a river is not called Paani. Doaba refers to an area between two rivers ( Sutlej and Beas) in Indian Punjab. So Aba refers to not water but land between rivers. It can be derived from persian as could the Punj, but five is not Paanch in Punjabi. Haphar 11:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Punjabi people

I think this is best moved on to List of prominent Punjabis. This could spiral out of control if left here! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 12:50, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsubstantiated Claims

Ultimately, two later religions largely supplanted both of these earlier faiths, Islam in the west (mainly in modern Pakistan) and Sikhism in the east (while Hinduism remains prominent for many Indian Punjabis, there has been a significant linguistic shift by Hindu Punjabis towards the usage of Hindi).

How can such baseless claims be made without providing an iota of evidence?Where is the demographic evidence to back up this comment? Whis is the linguistic shift - some people have converted this encyclopaedia to a tool of demagoguery. People switch languages as they move from one language area to another. The slant above indicates that Sikhs speak Punjabi in Delhi, Haryana and other Hindiphone areas whereas Hindus speak Hindi even in Punjabi-speaking areas of Punjab state. If we are in the process of documenting linguistic shifts, it would be prudent to look at the real shift happening in Pakistan where people have dumped their mother tongue for Islamic language of Urdu. I'm removing the above metioned lines from the article. Besides, these shifts have already been documented in Punjabis of India/Pakistan sub-section, so these lines are anyway redundant.

I wrote that section. The evidence is in the infobox. The majority of Punjabis are in Pakistan and combined with the Sikhs outnumber those of other religions. In addition, the census data was consulted regarding a mother tongue and those who answered with Punjabi listed. And if you look at the Pakistan census, while many Punjabis are using Urdu more and more, they still claim Punjabi as their mother tongue (44%). Now if you have information to the contrary then by all means present it. Tombseye 20:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Tombseye,

Is infobox the text area on the right side of the article page, which lists the number of Punjabi speakers around the world (Regions with Significant Populations). If so, it has only linguistic affiliation data, which can't be used for making sweeping statements on religious affiliations of Punjabi-speakers. If you are subtracting the number of Sikhs from the number of Punjabi speakers to arrive at Hindu Punjabis, this is incorrect. Your assumption that all Sikhs list Punjabi as mother-tongue would require proof.

61.17.163.234 19:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC) Stuck on History ??

It seems personal opinions and not any irrefutable data form the basis of the statement "while Hinduism remains prominent for many Indian Punjabis, there has been a significant linguistic shift by Hindu Punjabis towards the usage of Hindi"

It is indeed true that a few decades back, "SOME" Punjabi Hindus (of which many were freshly uprooted from Pakistan) did feel intimidated so to say by the growing influence of Amritsar in the affairs of Punjab, and hence in this light presented Hindi as an alternative to Punjabi for Punjabi Hindus.. But those were a few people ... and hopefully these people and all their ideas have much become a part of History .. Let us leave these speculative statements in a Discussion of History of Modern Punjab.. and not in this article

[edit] Several cleanups

"Further studies show the diversity of the regions inhabited by the Punjabis with extreme Western Punjabis, living in close proximity to Afghanistan, such as the Punjabi Pathans genetically clustering with West Asian populations due to a high degree of admixture and also corresponding to a general genetic variation between populations east of the Indus from those west and north of the river valley.[13]"

The above para should be modified as it refers to peoples inhabiting areas close to regions such as Afghanistan or Baluchistan as Punjabis. The people such as Punjabi Pathans donot refer to themselvesas Punjabi nor consider their langauge to be Punjabi. Secondly,


"Lastly, it has been surmised through the analysis of the Romany language as well as genetic studies that many of the Roma people's ancestors (popularly known as Gypsies a term that is seen as perjorative) originated in the Pothohar region of what is today northern Pakistan as the Roma language shows strong similarities with Pothohari, itself a dialect of the Punjabi language."

How substantiated is this claim? As far as I know thier is ambuguity about Romani origins with theories associsating with various groups such as Jats, Rajputs, and even other peoples of west Asia). Their region of origin is also discussed to be from somewhere from the northern subcontinent again it has been theorized to be Sind, Punjab, Rajasthan etc. thankyou,

omerlivesOmerlives 13:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

There have even been linkages to the Labana nomadic tribes, of which there are some "Sikh" Labana's in Indian Punjab. Haphar 11:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mistakes in the HISTORY section

The history part starts off by saying that the Punjab region was invaded by indo-aryans and other groups of people...It goes on to say that these groups help formed the punjabi culture....But that doesnt make any sense because a "Punjabi" is some that is AN INDO-ARYAN...In other words being Punjabi is not a race...or a seperate group of people...They belong to the Aryan people....Their blood is Aryan....A Punjabi is someone that speaks Punjabi or comes from the state of Punjab...I mean its like saying...A person from the state of California is a Californian right? But their race is not Californian is it?....No...Same as Punjabi...NOw i understand that in India its a bit different...I understand that Punjabi can be sort of a sub-culture...But that is today.....But our blood is still ARYAN.....ANd the 2nd part that was a mistake is were it says that Punjab became a gateway to south Asia...Please....First of all when Muslim invaders came, and the greeks came it wasnt Punjab that was the gate way....It was the Hindu Khush or the silk road...Im punjabi for the record but this article is way to complicated....U guys are making it sound like a PUnjabi is this race or something ARYAN818 08:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Reply: If you actually read what has been found in the genetic studies of Punjabi peoples you would find out that Punjabis belong to the same stock as the various other peoples of the subcontinent. The only slight variation being is that there is a marjinly higher degree of some West Asian admixture in the Punjabi population compared to the rest of the Indians. In conclusion, there is no such "Aryan" race or identity of Punjabis. Punjabis are Indians, genetically speaking.

Aryan or Iranic stock is what peoples like the Persians belong to. Not Punjabis or other Indian peoples.

[edit] That picture is not of Punjabis

The picture that is in the "Punjabis in Pakistan" are not of Punjabis. They are more likely either Pashtuns or Balochis. The boy is definately a Pashtun. I can tell the difference with great ease. So that picture needs to be removed or replaced.

I just checked the source and indeed this picture is not of Punjabis. Its actually of Pashtuns which this source has confused for Punjabis. This picture will be removed since it is incorrect. Pashtuns and Punjabis are two different ethnic groups.
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