Talk:Pseudoscience

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[edit] Archiving

This talkpage has gotten out-of-control. The discussions contained here have drifted so far away from the purpose of talkpages as to be really not worth keeping live. Therefore, I have archived the previous discussion. The issues are still active, but in the spirit of turning over a new leaf, let's begin discussing how to make the article better. To wit, let's have all contributions here be of the sort: "Let's include this in the article" or "Let's remove this from the article". No more arguments about people's behavior, no more discussions about what is and isn't a pseudoscience (except in regards to what to include or remove from the article), and generally no more tangential discussions. If you want to pursue any of these, there are other venues in which to do it. Now let's get back to editting. --ScienceApologist 17:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Am I making sense?

Am I making sense when I say, Pseudosciences make scientific claims but do not follow the scientific method, therefore they behave in certain ways that we list (i.e. Use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims, etc.) In other words, if A then B. But when we try to say a particular field's theory is untestable -> therefore it is a pseudoscience, that would be saying; since B then A, which is not logical. So if we are going to use anything as an example of pseudoscience, we first have to prove they are A, otherwise there are a lot of things that behave like B but aren't A, such as surgery that can't use double blind tests, etc. Agree/Disagree? --Dematt 17:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The way pseudoscience is usually determined is through examining all the available evidence, not just pointing to single features. No one would ever claim that something was pseudoscience just because it couldn't be subject to double-blind tests. Subjects are pseudoscience because they make claims that either have been falsified or lack testability. --ScienceApologist 18:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think SA really addresses the point you make Dematt and his last claim is clearly worng (what science hasn't made any claims that have been falsified). In any event, the reasoning in your (Dematt's) claim has gone a bit awry. It is not that fields are psuedoscience therefore they do X. Rather, they do X (and Y and Z, or enough of them) therefore they are psuedoscience. In your example, then, the first A and B are the wrong way round and it should really read "do not follow the scientific method because they behave in certain ways.Davkal 19:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

My last point is not wrong. After falsification of an idea has occurred, pseudoscience supporters continue to advocate the idea in spite of its falsification. --ScienceApologist 19:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a substantially different point. Davkal 19:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Not it isn't. I stated quite clearly that pseudoscience "makes claims that... have been falsified" as in "already" falsified. --ScienceApologist 19:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, my apologies, the wording was slightly ambiguous but all has been clarified now. Davkal 19:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you need to look at Popper and Kuhn; both stress that theories are retained in normal science long after they have been extensively falsified, they are only replaced when a better theory emerges,.... and then the process is complex. Kuhn's account of science is a competitive one - differenct co-existing schools developing competing theories that are mutually inconsistent, neither of which are wholly true, and often "incommensurate".....Gleng 09:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not talking about Kuhn's paradigm shifts here, I'm talking about people who advocate, for example, flood geology even after it's shown that in order for the atmosphere to contain that amount of water vapor, no life could have been supported on the Earth. --ScienceApologist 12:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, then that list becomes pretty important. That is where we need to concentrate on verifiable and reliable sourcing. But of course we run into the same problem; if we're going to use examples for each, anything from any field could theoretically go in as an example, i.e. surgery for untestable, etc. right, unless we decide on some kind of line of demarcation? So, either we (1)decide on the line of demarcation, (2)don't use examples, (3)keep doing what we're doing - but keep running into the infighting. Is that a reasonable assessment? --Dematt 20:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


It's an almost perfect assesment, since what is missing from the article is a genuine acknowledgement of the way the term "pseudoscience" is actually applied. That is, it is primarily used as a term of abuse bandied about without much restraint and used against certain fields, indivduals, ideas that some consider (for a variety of reasons) to be beyond the pale. It is as if someone calls someone else an idiot (because they don't like them for all sorts of reasons) and we then try to identify necessary and sufficient conditions for the appropriate application of the term "idiot". Anything we say can clearly be shown to be a trait of many people we don't want to call idiots but we want to use the word nonetheless and don't want to admit that it's really just a term of abuse. Davkal 20:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

No, no, no. This analysis is almost completely original research. Pseudoscience is evaluated in introductory science courses as a matter of curriculum! It's not merely a pejorative, it's an actual issue in science education. I'm sorry that the pseudoscientists get offended when evidence is shown that blows their ideas out of the water or their methodology is pointed out to be flawed, but Wikipedia is not supposed to be a love-in or a place where criticism is mitigated. We report what is actually done, and in introductory science classes, what is done is, frankly, demarcation -- despite the fact that this task gets muddied amongst various philosophers of science. --ScienceApologist 20:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, yes, yes (or whatever). God forbid that philosphers of science should be taken seriously on a philosophy of science issue. Far better to leave it to the "introduction to science" teachers. And you shouldn't really confuse original research with things you're merely unfamiliar with (a short explanation of almost exactly my point appears currently in the intro but little is made of it later on).Davkal 20:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This is NOT just a "philosophy of science issue". It is also an issue of scientific literacy and as such is relevant to the people actually doing science. You are claiming, falsely, that pseudoscience is used almost exclusively as a put-down. I'm pointing out that while people take offense to the pseudoscience label, there are plenty of examples where pseudoscience is used in other contexts. Your attempt to construct a hierarchy of norms between intro science teachers and philosophers of science is silly. We can report both in this article and they will complement each other well. The article can delve both into philosophical issues while explaining what scientists have said about pseudoscience, and it can do both without claiming an objective value-judgement on the term. --ScienceApologist 20:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think what we may wish to do is look for which subjects are the easiest to demarcate as pseudoscience and begin by discussing those in the article. The list of pseudosciences is a good place to start. Subjects that find themselves closer to that demarcation line we can evaluate on a case-by-case basis with appropriate, cited discussion and criticism. Using the standard skeptical societies as a guideline is a good start since they have a good claim to "word ownership". What is clear to me, however, is that we need to make sure the mainstream evaluations of pseudoscience and declarations to that effect remain. We should not be held hostage by the post-modernist philosophers who throw the baby out with the bathwater with the cry "Demarcation problem! Demarcation problem!" while being supported by psedoscientific rabble-rousers who are offended that anyone could consider their pet idea to be "pseudoscience". --ScienceApologist 20:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

IMO, pseudoscience is a POV term (not "bad", but simply in the sense of WP:POV) and should be treated as such, i.e., in the same way WP treats cult. Many scientists don't even use the term, preferring to comment on evidence, or lack thereof, cf. McNally[1], and Gleng's comment here. best, Jim Butler(talk) 23:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea how science is taught in American Universities. Over here the principles of scientific method are taught, and in Philosophy courses Popper and Kuhn's ideas are very extensively discussed, and logic is taught. We teach students to evaluate good and bad scientific method, sound and weak reasoning etc. and stress the importance of operational definitions, and here is the problem. Unless the demarcation problem is resolved then there is no agreed operational definition for science, so there can be no objective definition of PS either, hence its use has no "scientific" content. We teach students of science to use strictly definable terms where possible, avoiding potentially vague or ambigious terms with mere emotive content. Gleng 09:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, we have verifiable citations to works which criticize pseudoscience in a wide range of introductory textbooks. I'll remind everyone here that while pseudoscience may be a POV, Wikipedia reports notable POVs that are found in the outside world. The job of Wikipedia is not to right perceived wrongs of society. In Europe, the scientific community is somewhat more accomodating to fringe and pseudoscience than we are in the United States. This is probably due to the fact that in Europe the anti-science perspective is looked at as backwards while there is a significant group of people in the US who actively promote "science bashing" and criticize science itself. Different strokes for different folks, of course. We can report this in the article if someone can dig up some sociology of science citations to this effect. --ScienceApologist 12:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


But here, I think, matters come to a head. Because what can now be seen is that the term "pseudoscience" finds its place in a political, rather than a scientific, arena. That is, the science bashers bash science and the defenders of science respond with sound-bite distinctions that are politically useful but have little actual scientific merit - convenient brushes to tar opponents with but unsustainable from a neutral perspective. When that point is combined with SA's point above that "the standard skeptical societies [...] have a good claim to "word ownership"", and we look at the ideological foundations of those skeptical societies (here, e.g.,[2]), the point becomes clearer still. That certain educators have become part of this political battle should not be taken as evidence for anything other than they have become involved.Davkal 13:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that you all have deliniated POVs that surface on this page. I think a good up-to-the-minute, progressive, online encyclopedia should spend its valuable time presenting this debate rather than making lists from eitherany POV. Am I wrong? --Dematt 13:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Nope, I think you're right on. cheers, Jim Butler(talk) 08:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Let's parse this

Can we please parse the sentence below (in bold, presented in the second paragraph of the article) so it accurately reflects any relevant point intended to be made? I think the original intent (from around the time of Jon Awbrey's participation) was to state the obvious for the reader, which was, essentially, that someone calling someone else "a liar or a fool" usually results in a rejection of the label by the person being so called. ... Kenosis 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

  • The term pseudoscience appears to have been first used in 1843 [1] as a combination of the Greek root pseudo, meaning false, and the Latin scientia, meaning knowledge or a field of knowledge. The term has negative connotations, because subjects so labeled are repudiated by skeptics and scientists as being inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science when in fact the subjects are not. [2] Accordingly, those labeled as practicing or advocating a "pseudoscience" normally reject this classification. ... 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

-

I don't see what was wrong with the way it was written before. That is
"The term has negative connotations, because it indicates that subjects so labeled are inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science. Accordingly, those labeled as practicing or advocating a "pseudoscience" normally reject this classification."
This seems like a perfectly straightforward and important point made perfectly straightforwardly.Davkal 17:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
It also avoids the words "skeptics and scientists" which are weaseling in the sense that they are used here. Taking them out would certainly uncomplicate the issue of which skeptics and how many scientists. --Dematt 19:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Is "repudiated" the best word here? The term has negative connotations, because subjects so labeled are repudiated by skeptics and scientists as being inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science when in fact the subjects are not. I'm not sure that I like "skeptics and scientists" here either. Something rubs me wrong here grammatically and I can't quite put my finger on it. Anyone else? Levine2112 22:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll be blunt: the sentence is shit. Hence I'm reverting it. It is grammatically wrong on several levels, and to ambiguous with the "skeptics and scientists" bit. •Jim62sch• 22:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
You gone done and writed it good[3]. -Jim Butler(talk) 01:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's roughly how this developed. About 2000 edits ago, the article looked like this. Then in March of this year, about 1800 edits ago, traffic picked up and a significant change was made here. Successive edits of importance to this part of the article's lead occurred here, here, here, and here. I made an adjustment here, which brought the relevant sentence to where it pretty much remained since. Several combinations of the clause that adherents "normally reject this classification" were tried along the way, such as "commonly dispute the claim", "almost always dispute the claim", "typically dispute this classification", "ordinarily reject the classification", etc., and it ended up being stable for about six months with the language quoted by Davkal above. ... Kenosis 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific literacy: New minds for a changing world: Paul DeHart Hurd

Hurd's article is available on-line. [4] I think the relevant quote from it is "A scientifically literate person is one who.....Distinguishes science from pseudo-science such as astrology, quackery, the occult and superstition." This is an indication of a rather liberal use of the term pseudoscience to include anything the writer thinks is stupid. Was it meant to include, as superstition, Christianity and other beliefs in the soul?Gleng 17:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Any other source for that article? I am unable to get access with the link provided. Sounds like an interesting point. --Dematt 19:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid someone will need to give up their username and password to access that citation (assuming it's not in violation of their user agreement with the website). Alternately, another method of access to this source will be needed. ... Kenosis 02:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as an IT Manager: Never, ever, give up your password (or uid if it is not your nick). Never. Not ever. •Jim62sch• 17:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like good advice; my apology. (I've obviously gotten too spoiled with options such as http://www.bugmenot.com . I also see that as a paid subscription, this would be a stretch of fair-use anyway.) Why not just quote the relevant passages or sections then? ... Kenosis 04:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

If someone wants to read a copy of the article, shoot me an e-mail and I'll send it to you. --ScienceApologist 17:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem in WP:AGF with your interpretation. What does he seem to say? --Dematt 03:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Got a copy! IMO, the article makes an argument for the integration of a "lived science into our school curriculums"(meaning things that students view as useful in their everyday lives - rather than just thereoms and useless facts). He makes the point that science has already changed to be useful by industry, etc., but schools have not kept up. He was assweting the position that schools should adapt there methods to create better scientific literacy. The section that SA and Gleng have referenced is:

"Behaviors associated with the production and utilization of science knowledge in human affairs represent the civic basis of scientific literacy. This perception is a blend of the revolutionary changes in the sciences with dimensions of our democracy, social progress, and the adaptive needs of human beings. The elements of a civic concept of scientific literacy represent a consciousness of behaviors that serve as guidelines for interpreting the functions of science/technology in human affairs and the management of one’s life. These behaviors also serve as guidelines for reinventing science curricula in grades K–12, which has been called for in the education reform movement. The following attributes are among others that enable students to adapt to the changing world of science and technology and its impact on personal, social, and economic affairs. Thus, a scientifically literate person is one who:

  • Distinguishes experts from the uninformed.
  • Distinguishes theory from dogma, and data from myth and folklore. *Recognizes that almost every fact of one’s life has been influenced in one way or another by science/technology.
  • Knows that science in social contexts often has dimensions in political, judicial, ethical, and sometimes moral interpretations.
  • Senses the ways in which scientific research is done and how the findings are validated.
  • Uses science knowledge where appropriate in making life and social decisions, forming judgments, resolving problems, and taking action.
  • Distinguishes science from pseudo-science such as astrology, quackery, the occult, and superstition.
  • Recognizes the cumulative nature of science as an “endless frontier.”
  • Recognizes scientific researchers as producers of knowledge and citizens as users of science knowledge.
  • Recognizes gaps, risks, limits, and probabilities in making decisions involving a knowledge

of science or technology.

  • Knows how to analyze and process information to generate knowledge that extends beyond

facts.

  • Recognizes that science concepts, laws, and theories are not rigid but essentially have an

organic quality; they grow and develop; what is taught today may not have the same meaning tomorrow.

  • Knows that science problems in personal and social contexts may have more than one “right”

answer, especially problems that involve ethical, judicial, and political actions.

  • Recognizes when a cause and effect relationship cannot be drawn. Understands the importance

of research for its own sake as a product of a scientist’s curiosity.

  • Recognizes that our global economy is largely influenced by advancements in science and technology.
  • Recognizes when cultural, ethical, and moral issues are involved in resolving science–social problems.
  • Recognizes when one does not have enough data to make a rational decision or form a reliable

judgment.

  • Distinguishes evidence from propaganda, fact from fiction, sense from nonsense, and knowledge from opinion.
  • Views science–social and personal–civic problems as requiring a synthesis of knowledge from different fields including natural and social sciences.
  • Recognizes there is much not known in a science field and that the most significant discovery may be announced tomorrow.
  • Recognizes that scientific literacy is a process of acquiring, analyzing, synthesizing, coding, evaluating, and utilizing achievements in science and technology in human and social contexts.
  • Recognizes the symbiotic relationships between science and technology and between science, technology, and human affairs.
  • Recognizes the everyday reality of ways in which science and technology serve human adaptive capacities, and enriches one’s capital.
  • Recognizes that science–social problems are generally resolved by collaborative rather than individual action.
  • Recognizes that the immediate solution of a science–social problem may create a related problem later.
  • Recognizes that short- and long-term solutions to a problem may not have the same answer.

These science literacy characteristics are not taught directly but are embedded in a lived curriculum where students are engaged in resolving problems, making investigations, or developing projects. Supporting laboratory and field experiences are viewed as exercises in citizenship. As teachers we need to recognize constantly that public understanding of science is conceptually different from the traditional forms embedded in the structure of science disciplines." --Dematt 18:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fine and good, but the edit you put in seriously disrupted the explanation of the context which is why the source is offered. It is clear that Hurd is advocating for scientific literacy in part as a repudiation of pseudoscience. Trying to say what Hurd's main purpose of the paper is incidental to this point. --ScienceApologist 22:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I see where I muddied the water? I agree that Hurd was advocating scientific literacy as a repudiation of pseudoscience. All I did was clarify that it was not a research paper and added the occult. The entire paragraph concerned science education, Hurd fit right in. What was the muddy part? --Dematt 22:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
It was a summary of ideas based on research, the paper itself was a review. Adding the occult is unnecessary as it is covered by superstition. Your edit just made the sentence nearly impossible to understand within the context of the introduction and the paragraph. --ScienceApologist 23:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Still, "According to science education research" is overreaching. It makes it sound like there is consensus among scientists and science educators about the meaning of the term "pseudoscience". Perhaps this is an improvement. (I have a graduate degree in chemistry and don't recall ever hearing the term used by my teachers. We talked about stuff like evidence and reasoning instead.) thx, Jim Butler(talk) 00:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I think you're on the right track. --Dematt 01:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks and a clarification: I don't mean to give aid and comfort to those whom I think really are attempting to subvert science and reason a la wedge strategy. (That would be sort of analogous to tolerance taken too far, i.e. tolerating intolerance itself.) In general, my primary quibble with SA's otherwise perfectly fine line of thinking is that pedagogically, it appears easier to find consensus on what science is than what pseudoscience is.
Also, as I've argued before, labelling topics in psychology and medicine as pseudoscience is hazardous territory given the complexity of the variables one must measure. Too often the "conclusions" section of a paper overreaches the "evidence" section, as when failure to replicate a phenomenon is taken to "disprove" that phenomenon (e.g., facilitated communication, where the majority/doubting view has used the dreaded PS-term mostly as an epithet). Excellent article relating to these issues from Harvard Prof. Martha Herbert here. Parsing such nuances requires unrelenting intellectual honesty and rigor. (/soapbox) cheers, Jim Butler(talk) 08:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing accurately

Because the word PS can be used either indiscriminately (as a pejorative) or with attempted precision (as Popper attempted), and in mutually inconsistent ways, it seems important to be precise in citation. Hurd uses the word PS to embrace, specifically, the occult, superstition and quackery, and not to make that clear would be to miscite him, particularly because elsewhere in the present article it is clear that a precise use of the term pseudoscience would exclude all of these -and to include the Occult as pseudoscience would probably entail including all religion. The Occult is a necessary inclusion in any cite, as this makes clear that Hurd is embracing religious beliefs as pseudoscience. This is Hurd's only use of the word, to stretch his meaning beyond what he said would be a speculative inference.

In psychology, as in all fields of science, the word pseudoscientific is part of the armamentorium of internal criticism (though seldom in the peer reviewed scientific literature, which generally prefers terms with operational definitions); the holder of one position may say that an alternative is pseudoscientific, meaning variously that the terms are ill defined, or the position is logically unsound, or that the argument is irremedially obscure. Sometimes this is a "straw man" position to delineate the conflicts, sometimes a serious criticism - but just as Medawar declared with rigor and vigor that every scientific paper is a fraud, there is little sense in treating arguments within a field as though they were somehow criticisms of the field, for intelligible external consumption. However, psychology is relevant for one good reason - it was chosen as one of the three canonical examples of unfalsifiable theories by Popper, who was the first to attempt a rigorous use of PS. The University of Maryland curriculum by the way uses PS in the title but the description makes no further use of it.

How any of these arguments can give comfort to those who choose to believe nonsense is beyond me. If nonsense cannot be countered by cool rigor, careful analysis, and clear thinking, but needs to be branded by emotive labels with no intellectual content, then maybe it's not nonsense after all.Gleng 10:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Gleng, the problem with your edit is that in attempting to mitigate the use of the term "pseudoscience", you introduced a slant that claims that pseudoscience is poorly considered. While you submit that there is no definition of pseudoscience that is adequate, this quibble has no bearing on the sentences you editted. There is plenty of text elsewhere in the article which deals with this, but you failed to take the cites at their word which is that they are discussing the perils of pseudoscience. Trying to argue against these cites in the fashion you did by saying that they are somehow not giving good enough definitions for what they are fighting against is injecting original research. --ScienceApologist 13:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
? How can using the author's own words instead ogf yours be injecting my POV exactly? This is the only use of the term in the article, and at least we should respect the possibility that the author meant exactly what he said. I think it is OR to go beyond that and infer that the author actually meant more than he said. Gleng 16:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I hate to butt in here where I haven't been following the current history of the debate, but using precise quotes is often the best way to avoid accusations of OR and POV editing. When properly sourced, the case stands stronger. FWIW. -- Fyslee 16:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Glad to see I wasn't the only one confused by that. --Dematt 17:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Precise quotes are not a good idea for lead. And the selection of precise quotes detracted from the main point of the sentence (which is to say that pseudoscience is to be eschewed in order to gain scientific literacy). Insisting on including the quote because it illustrates the author's definition of pseudoscience is beyond the scope of the article and the reason the quote was included in the first place. Such an analysis would be better placed in an article about the person himself. --ScienceApologist 18:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It may well be that trying to cover science education is a bit too much for the lead. ... Kenosis 19:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Precise quotes are better than misquotes; it's only a few words, but their importance seems as clear to SA as to me. I agree with Kenosis; in the UK, science education here focuses on distinguishing good science from bad science, - the reasons not the labels, but I accept it may be different elsewhere. Hurd's inclusion of the occult is telling; where a word can be used to mean different things it seems important to be clear about how it is being used in any report of its use. In particular, it's important to distinguish between the scientific/philosophical issues and populist usage. It may well be appropriate to adopt a populist (pejorative) usage in an introductory science class; but unless the usage is distinguished the serious issues will get muddled. A "scientific" rather than a "pseudoscientific" use of the term requires an operational definition, or it becomes a mere label of distaste. I have a distaste for pseudoscientific arguments of all kinds, as I imagine everyone on this page does, but labels don't do the work of reason for us.Gleng 19:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree re the quotes, but I also agree with Kenosis. When I go to a restaurant I want a drink first, not a roast suckling pig slapped on the table. •Jim62sch• 23:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, drink... pig.... definitely drink. I say drink. --Dematt 01:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Pig... drink.... perhaps a compromise is possible? Seriously, yeah, agree w/ paring the lead a bit and covering more below. -Jim Butler(talk) 06:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
P.S. - meant to add, agree w/ Gleng above re operational definitions. - Jim Butler(talk) 17:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
So, per the Pork Soda method, 1) put pig in a big blender, 2) empty contents into large vessel, 3) put into centrifuge to sort out bones, intestines, etc., 4) boil contents so no one gets sick, 5) add seasoning so no one throws up from the taste, 6) carbonate; makes 100 eight-ounce servings ... maybe this analogy has reached its practical limit of utility? Actually, in my comment above, I was mainly just wondering whether recent discussion of "pseudoscience" in science education might deserve a separate section in the article rather than attempting to deal with controversial pedagogy in the introduction. In the last half of the 20th Century, in general, scientific method is taught in keeping with whatever the discipline is, while pseudoscience is merely acknowledged as one form of the category of non-science without further qualification in the texts. In general, it hasn't been the educator's job to teach students what pseudoscience is, but rather to stick to teaching students appropriate method in their particular discipline--chemists learn one set of methods, biologists another, phsyicists another, experimental psychologists yet another, each of which is currently accepted in their own area of inquiry based on past successes. And it's left to "philosophers of science" to integrate it all, if they think they can. And as we already know, philosophers of science have been unsuccessful in attempts to arrive at a clear solution to the demarcation problem; though the AAAS has made nice progress in developing guidelines in recent years. So to whatever extent the term "pseudoscience" may be used in any of the recent texts on method, it is relatively very new. Maybe a brief section in the article on recent trends in science education involving the use of the word "pseudoscience" might be appropriate? ... Kenosis 17:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Now we're getting to the marrow of the matter (porcine metaphor exhausted?). Yes, Kenosis, agree with your ideas; cult has some good approaches on presenting POV's. best regards, Jim Butler(talk) 17:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
That would certainly make sense and set the stage for the rational debate of the issues. --Dematt 19:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Norcross

Let's discuss this before adding it. This is what I found... no clear mention of Pseudoscience.

A new study surveyed psychologists and other mental health professionals about their knowledge and views on whether certain treatments have been discredited, and the results are provocative. The subjects rated 59 treatments and 30 assessment techniques on a continuum from "not at all discredited" to "certainly discredited."

The upper tier of discredited treatments included Angel, Orgone, Rebirthing, and Primal Scream therapies. Some techniques that fell into the mid-range included Freudian dream interpretation, catharsis for anger disorders, Scared Straight programs for criminal offenders, and DARE programs for substance-abuse prevention. The bottom tier, which represents more credible treatments included EMDR, behavioral therapy for sex offenders, and psychosocial treatment of ADHD. The most discredited assessments included Graphology, the Szondi test, and the Luscher Color Test for personality.

The authors made sure to note that all of this should interpreted with caution since it is simply an exploratory analysis and that many subjects were not familiar with details of each treatment. However, this does provide fasinating documentation about the status of varoius therapies and treatment approaches in the field, and ideally consumers can gain access to this sort of information to guide therapeutic decision making.

Norcross, Koocher, & Garofalo (2006). Discredited psychological treatments and tests: A Delphi poll. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 37(5), 515-522.

I just don't think qualifies a s agood source of what is a pseudoscience, especially with the author warning to be cautious when interpreting this study. Any other toughts here? Levine2112 06:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112. The whole article is about pseudoscience. They listed 59 or so theories that have been identified by other peer reviewed sources as pseudoscientific, and then they determined using a rigorous empirically sound poll which ones were definitely discredited. Similar to other peer reviewed literature on similar subjects, they use the terms quackery, and pseudoscience. So Gleng, yourself, or anyone else who keeps badgering for a dismissal of those terms or articles has just bit the dust on that argument yet again. Levine2112, contrary to your statements, you have clearly not read the article. You have also not clearly read NPOV policy. Look under the heading - a simple formulation. This article is a survey - published in a peer reviewed journal, published by eminent profs. It will inevitably be included in this article. KrishnaVindaloo 06:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Whoa. Take it easy. This isn't a personal attack, so don't turn it on me like that. This is the kind of thing that got you in trouble last time. I am questioning the edit and not the editor, so please don't make this personal.
Now then... no, I haven't read the article. Nor did I claim to. I did find a summary which doesn't mention Pseudoscience. It also mentions a tier system which I think is important.
Can you provide us a link to the article? This way I and others can read it. And/or can you provide us with a direct quote from this source which uses the term pseudoscience so we can see how it is being used... since that is most operative to this article.
And if we decide to reintroduce this, can you please try to be consistent and match the ref footnote method that everyone else has employed here? Thanks again and please don't take this personally. Stay calm and let's discuss this rationally and cooperatively. Levine2112 07:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I found an abstract for this: [5] Note that this study is not about labeling things as pseudoscientific but rather to discredit/credit the value of certain therapies in terms of mental health. I really think it is a stretch to include this here. However, please feel free to defend it being here in an article that is about Pseudoscience. Levine2112 07:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Norcross on page 515 says that several authors have attempted to identify pseudoscientific psychotherapies. They site Lilienfeld, Carroll, Sala, Eisner, and Singer. Norcross then says that this present study is an addition to that effort. Of course pseudoscientific and discredited are the same in Norcross et al's judgment in this respect. In the conclusion of the study - page 522, Norcross et al state that "We have made progress in diferrentiating science from pseudoscience". They also say they have made a cogent step in identifying the quack factor of modern mental health practice. Its crystal clear that the article concludes that those 14 listed are very very pseudoscientific. This PS article could do with some information on the issue of the relationship between what is considered pseudoscientific (has PS aspects), and what is considered most definitely discredited. The Norcross article is perfect for this PS article. KrishnaVindaloo 08:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Please provide a reference for us to click so we can read this for ourselves. -- Fyslee 14:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Fyslee. The ref is in the ref section under Norcross. You will not have much luck clicking on it as it is not linked to anything. Its a fresh reference and it corroborates many of the scientific editors on Wikipedia when we say that sources such as Lilienfeld, Carroll, Quackwatch, Mind Myths, etc, are all about identifying pseudoscience when they say something is dubious, quackery, or discredited. KrishnaVindaloo 14:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Since the [abstract is all that we have, this is the pertanent section:
  • Here's the abstract: "In the context of intense interest in evidence-based practice (EBP), the authors sought to establish consensus o­n discredited psychological treatments and assessments using Delphi methodology. A panel of 101 experts participated in a 2-stage survey, reporting familiarity with 59 treatments and 30 assessment techniques and rating these o­n a continuum from not at all discredited to certainly discredited. The authors report their composite findings as well as significant differences that occurred as a function of the experts' gender and theoretical orientation. The results should be interpreted carefully and humbly, but they do offer a cogent first step in consensually identifying a continuum of discredited procedures in modern mental health practice."
  • According to the article: "For the specific purpose listed, experts considered as certainly discredited 14 psychological treatments: angel therapy, use of pyramid structures, orgone therapy, crystal healing, past lives therapy, future lives therapy, treatments for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) caused by alien abduction, rebirthing therapies, color therapy, primal scream, chiropractic manipulation, thought field therapy, standard prefrontal lobotomy, and aroma therapy. Another 11 treatments were consensually designated as probably discredited (mean rating of 4.0 or greater), including Erhard Seminar Training (EST) and age-regression methods, for various specific purposes."
  • Regarding tests, the article states: "Five tests rated by at least 25% of the experts in terms of being discredited for a specific purpose received mean scores of 4.0 or higher: Lscher Color Test, Szondi Test, handwriting analysis (graphology), Bender Visual Motor Gestalt Test (for assessment of neuropsychological impairment), eneagrams, and Lowenfeld Mosaic Test."

No mention of pseudoscience, just procedures that were discredited for the use as psychological therapies. No duh. Maybe this can be used under the psychology article. --Dematt 16:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Dematt. The article specifically states the term pseudoscience several times and talks about the difference between science and pseudoscience. The research is an important part of the effort to root out what is science and pseudoscience in psychology. I can see why you would not want it in the article though. Is there any particular part of it which you don't like to be mentioned? Would you state it differently? Because articles are composed of more than abstracts. They have abstracts, introductions, literature reviews, methods, results, discussions and conclusions. In this case the conclusion discusses the improvement in distinguishing science from pseudoscience. I am most interested in improving this article, and would like there to be at least some mention of this recent vast improvement in distinguishing science from pseudoscience. Would you like it if the term - chiropractic - was not mentioned? KrishnaVindaloo 16:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think chiropractic is the issue here (though your insistence to include it in this article has been noted). The issue is that Norcross is not calling these 14 disciplines pseudoscience; but rather discrediting their application to mental health by mere survey (asking experts how they feel about something). Drawing a link to how these experts feel and declaring something to be pseudoscience is a slippery slope and it would seem that even Norcross agrees that this survey should be interpreted with caution since it was simply an exploratory analysis and that many of the experts on the panel were not entirely familiar with each treatment. Pseudoscience is a very serious pejorative label to slap on something and therefore we shouldn't be reckless with its application... most especially in this article. Levine2112 17:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Krishna, I wouldn't be surprised if they do mention pseudoscience, nor am I questioning whether what is written might apply, it's just a question of verifiability. You have repeatedly expected us to just take your word for what's in a book or other source you're quoting, but we don't always have access to it, and we've become wary of your use of sources. We would like to check the context. I'm in agreement with your basic position, but your use of sources and your manner of expecting us to just believe you is unsatisfactory. If you'd find sources that are available on the internet it would be much easier, and we wouldn't have so many of these discussions. Your edits would also "stick" more often. Another matter is your use of references. Please format them so they become embedded links, and include the URL as much as possible. Just copy the style others use. I'm sure you can learn it. -- Fyslee 18:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee. You are under an obligation to assume good faith. KrishnaVindaloo 04:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Levine2112, "declaring something to be pseudoscience is a slippery slope." Yes, that's true in the Norcross study, and in this context to do so in the article would indeed create an NPOV issue. The issue here at Wikipedia is not what is or is not pseudoscience. We don't "declare something to be pseudoscience" in the article. That isn't the job of the article. It is to provide information about the subject and the principles involved in how to identify pseudoscience, as well as to provide examples of various POV on what are considered pseudoscience by various people, etc.. Providing examples of how people or groups "declare something to be pseudoscience" must be done in an NPOV manner, IOW identify it as their POV. Then it becomes NPOV and can be included. -- Fyslee 18:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, and we have to use verifiable and reliable sources. Discrediting something for a specific use is not the same thing as calling it pseudoscience. Imagine if they would have included Motrin in that list. I'm sure it would be discredited for use for psychological treatments as well, but that doesn't mean we can re-arrange the words to call it a pseudoscience. --Dematt 18:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
This PS article is not just about saying who thinks what is PS. We are here to report all relevant views on issues of pseudoscience. The Norcross et al article is a new piece of research in the science and pseudoscience stream. It is relevant because it determines pseudoscientific and very pseudoscientific subjects by looking at whether they are certainly discredited, probably discredited, possibly discredited etc. It states explicitly the pseudoscience term in several places, it lists texts that identify pseudoscientific subjects, and it says that it takes an even more specific line by identifying what people believe are certainly discredited (pseudoscientific subjects that certainly do not work). As you may have noticed, all of the subjects listed in the 14 are recognizably pseudoscientific. It is obvious. Assume good faith. The bottom line: The article is about solving the science pseudoscience problem by looking at what is discredited. It belongs in the PS article. KrishnaVindaloo 04:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
But it is all in terms of psychology and we still don't know whether or not the paper actually calls these practices pseudoscientific in relation to psychology. I just don't see how this paper is truly relavent to this article... perhaps tangentially or maybe marginally relavent, but not enough to include it here. Levine2112 04:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Levine2112 and others. It would help if you bothered to look up the research for yourselves before prejudging it or myself (again). As far as I can tell, nobody apart from myself has bothered to do so. I have pretty much already come to the conclusion that the majority of editors here should probably not be editing here at all. Assumption of good faith is a prerequisite according to policy, especially if you can't be bothered to do the research, and especially if you are a proponent of something that is being discredited. I repeat: The Norcross article is the latest in the science pseudoscience psychology stream. They approach the research problem (how to deal with the science pseudoscience problem/demarcation) by identifying subjects that are definitely discredited according to a survey of experts. So it can read something like: "Norcross et al state that Lilienfeld and co have sought to identify pseudoscientific subjects in clinical psychology. Norcross et al take a more specific approach by identifying what is specifically discredited according to experts". The offer to exclude the chiropractic term is still open. For a limited period of 3 hours only. If there are no takers on that offer within 3 hours, I will assume that you are all happy to include the chiropractic term in the list, and it will be presented. After 3 hours, the offer closes permanently. KrishnaVindaloo 07:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
And after three hours, three days, or three years, your edits will get deleted and you will have wasted our time once again. I don't doubt that the article is relevant, just provide it for us. We don't all have the ability to access it like you apparently can, and until you provide us with the article so we can check the context, we are skeptical. Your history here is questionable enough to make your attempts to force us to assume good faith rather pathetic. And for you to make demands is even more ludicrous. You, of all people, is in no position to judge who is or is not qualified to be an editor here. Because of you, and you alone, a lot of good things you have presented here have been removed from my possible use as a skeptic, merely because of your misuse and your bad reputation here. I find that quite regretable. You make skeptics look bad. -- Fyslee 07:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee. I am under zero obligation to you to provide the actual source material in full. Indeed I would probably be contravening laws if I did so. You however, are under absolute obligation to assume good faith. I have been accused of lying so I will redouble my honesty. I do not consider myself a skeptic and I have said so many times. I believe skeptics already have a bad name and I would not be one of them. I do use scientific skepticism though, and I use it properly. It is my conclusion that many here should not be editing. That is my conclusion. I am free to express that conclusion. I come to that conclusion based upon the fact that a lot of editors here choose consensus over NPOV policy, choose not to assume good faith by default, and choose to make up rules concerning the provision of source material. I have provided ample information to prove that Norcross is relevant, as is the list of 14 discredited pseudoscientific subjects. If you think that looks bad, then I question your ability to adhere to NPOV policy. I hereby retract the offer to exclude chiropractic from the list. KrishnaVindaloo 07:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
KV, again, I don't think this about chiropractic (however, I do admit that its inclusion alerted me to the edit). But after further research, I feel that the source is still only minimally releavant to Pseudoscience. I certainly can be wrong as I have not read but a summary and excerpts from the source. If you can please explain where we can get it or where you are getting it, then perhaps we can access it lawfully. I certainly wouldn't want you to break the law. Please also explain why this is a legal issue. Do you only have a hard copy? From what publication? Do you have it from an online source which required purchase or membership?
Your latest edit is this: Norcross et al (2006:517) have approached the science/pseudoscience issue by conducting a survey of experts that seeks to specify which pseudoscientific theory or therapy is considered to be definitely discredited, and they outline 14 fields that have been definitely discredited.
From just the limited information you are allowing us to have on Norcross, this statement appears to be a violation of WP:OR. The summary nor the excerpts which I have seen don't mention pseudoscience at all; specifically that don't claim that this survey was used to discredit pseudoscientific theories or therapies. From what I have seen, this survey merely questioned a panel of experts of what they thought about the validity of certain therapies in relation to mental health... nothing more. To interpret more is an OR violation and Norcross itself even warns against interpretation.
There is really nothing else I can say - other than please learn the footnote ref system (your stubborness to comply is really frustrating). Until I can read Norcross in full, I can't accept the conclusions which you are purporting it makes. Levine2112 17:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KV's inability to collaborate with other editors

Like it or not, you are obligated to collaborate with all editors here, including those who (unlike myself) hold opposing POV. If you fail to collaborate, your edits will not stick, no matter how well made, well sourced, NPOV, etc., etc.. Collaborative editing is what makes Wikipedia function, and in practice it takes precedence over all policies. The best NPOV edit will fail to survive if it isn't done in a collaborative manner. That's life. Until you realize that, you are wasting your own and our time. If you don't have the respect of other editors, you may as well play somewhere else. -- Fyslee 10:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Unreal -- I walked away from this article a month ago and the same issues are still here(?!?). KV has still not learned to play well with others, I see. And I note that he keeps on espousing AGF even though he'd given ample reason to suspend AGF in his case months ago. Unreal. •Jim62sch• 11:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Jim62sch. Neither you, Fyslee, or anyone else has ever shown any evidence of me lying. The only evidence presented showed people attacking me using the term "pathalogical liar" using racist slurs, and generally refusing to accept my edits were supported by peer reviewed sources. Those sources and edits can still be presented according to NPOV policy. You have no choice but to assume good faith. KrishnaVindaloo 11:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee. I made every attempt to discuss and was met with a failure on your part to assume good faith, and a strange non-NPOV requirement to provide full source material. I have fulfilled NPOV policy on providing sources and explaining the research, and I have compromised way beyond what is normally required. If you don't like me telling the truth about you making up rules as you go along, or you failing to assume good faith, then don't push the point. I am always ready to collaborate with other editors and have shown a consistent effort to discuss. If you have a problem with me personally, then feel free to contact me on my talk page and stop wasting editor's bandwidth complaining about me here. KrishnaVindaloo 11:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
KV, if you are ready to collaborate then please provide us with Norcross in full. Or if this is not legally feasible, then please tell us how we can access it legally. Further, you would approach collaboration better if you were to follow the footnote ref format which this article employs. We have been asking you to do this for months upons months now. At this point I can assume you are being stubborn - not collaborative - with this very minor formating issue.
Two simple requests for you to fullfill. The ball is in your court to now show us your collaborative spirit.Levine2112 17:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Of course, I am happy to help you out. Simply deal with it in the same way that all other editors deal with this kind of issue. Assume good faith and accept the fact without reading anything, or go to a library and look up the information for yourself. Any other questions? KrishnaVindaloo 20:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Why are you being purposefully difficult? Clearly you have access to this material, so what's the problem with showing it to us or point us to it? This is not cooperative/collaborative behaviour you are demonstrating. Levine2112 20:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I have cooperatively given you the source reference. If you want to find it for yourself, go right ahead. I am not standing in your way. I do not expect you or any other editor to supply me or anyone else with source material for all the things you want to write in articles of interest to you. You obviously don't have enough information from your web search of Norcross. It is pathetically lacking. So to remedy that you will have to do some legwork and look it up for yourself. Sorry, but thats just the way it is done. Stick to NPOV policy and assume good faith. I have already logged a lot of instances of people not assuming good faith here. That will all be very useful for arbitration applications. Thank you. KrishnaVindaloo 21:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
By making others go through the legwork when you already have the source, you are demonstating your lack of desire to be cooperative. We have simply asked you to provide us with the source material or the means to access it ourselves. You have refursed to do so. Your attitude has been noted. So don't be surpirsed if others treat you with the same courtesy you have demonstrated here time and time again. Levine2112 21:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I already said that I didn't expect any such thing. I will explain something very helpful about Wikipedia policies on verifiability. Verifiable means that it can be verified. It does not mean that you have to verify it. I provided reliable and verifiable information. That is all I need to do. I don't mind spoonfeeding you info on Wikipedia policy, but you cannot demand that other editors spoonfeed you source material and then expect them to take you seriously. KrishnaVindaloo 21:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Why are you being stubborn about this? I am simply making a request. I would very much like to read this research. You have access to it and I am asking you in the spirit of cooperation to provide me with the means to do so. Why won't you be helpful? Levine2112 21:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It is not at all within my power to scan the document and send it to you. I have neither the capability, nor the need. You can go and get it for yourself very easily. Now stop badgering and stop pretending that it is a requirement to send other editors texts that they should be looking up themselves. KrishnaVindaloo 04:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Just asking for a little help, man. No badgering nor pretending. Which publication did you get it from? That's all. In the meantime, can you provide us with a direct quote here that verifies the statements about its relevancy to this article? Thanks. Levine2112 04:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Levine2112. You are badgering. I have provided all the information you demand already on the article. You just deleted it. KrishnaVindaloo 06:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC) BTW, Levine2112. This information will also help improve the chiropractic, psychology, and many other articles. In fact I have a lot of NPOV compliant details from other reliable and verifiable sources that I can add to the chiropractic article to help you out. You have absolutely no need to go into the consensus issue over that either because like the Norcross information, it is NPOV compliant, and NPOV policy trumps consensus. Would you like me to go into detail about those facts? I am happy to spend years maintaining those facts to help improve Wikipedia. KrishnaVindaloo 06:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Why are you dodging this simple request? Levine2112 17:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
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