User talk:Psb777

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note: Unless you specify that you will be monitoring this page, I will respond to you on your talk page instead of mine. But if you want a speedier response or any response at all, answer on this page since I will probably forget to check yours.

POST A COMMENT

Contents 1 Gauss 2 Welcome from RickK 3 RCC 4 Stan 5 Longest word? 6 Missphelt 7 Self-referential grokking 8 Moroccan Cuisine 9 sub.sub - primitive Godel machine? 10 The reason for strong reactions against Paul Vogel 10.1 Copyvios and VfDs 11 Wot you need... 12 Doctor 13 Power corrupts 14 POV or not POV 15 AI 16 Prittle prattle 17 Double bind 18 Patent nonsense deletion 19 Artificial Consciousness 20 Joke 21 Bots and Betfair 22 chatbot 23 Research into dolphins in the Bahamas 24 libertarian? 25 Chatbots 26 Epistemology 27 My comments on talk page 28 the "racism thing" 29 Flesh and Machines 30 NPOV 31 Answer why 32 Virus? 33 Ability to learn 34 G.W. Bush quotes on war crimes 35 Space elevator 36 Prurient 37 Afrikaans and Flemish 38 "Bowdlerism" 39 Orbits 40 Watch this space! 41 Watching 42 Types of intelligence 42.1 Data Management Wiki Committee 43 Could you have a look at this? 44 History of Greenland 45 ! was watching... 46 He's back! 47 NPOV label 48 The mediation thing. 49 Thank you for your response. 50 Article Licensing 51 Talk:Tax 52 Revert: South Africa coup 53 Arbitration 53.1 Grunt & the arbitration case 53.2 Fred Bauder and the arbitration case 53.3 Kbdank71's POV 53.4 Raul654 53.5 in prep 53.6 Arbitration Committee case opening 53.7 Is hunting sport? 53.8 arbitration 53.9 Chinasaur's on ArbCom case 54 Arbitration Committee injunction 55 Arbitration proposed decision page 56 PSB v Tkorrovi 57 Personal Attacks wot you are making 58 A distant relation? 59 Re. comment on arbitration page 59.1 Regarding proposed finding of fact 60 "Response" by Ambi 61 A Concern 62 Garlic beer 63 Advocate wanted? 64 Arbitration case - final decision 65 Dear Sir. 66 Blocked by Snowspinner 67 the coriolis effect article 68 "Obligate" vs. "oblige" 68.1 Reflexive "oblige" 69 Recognise a deity when you encounter one 70 User Bill of Rights 71 regarding free market and the use of fiat_money 72 The Thessalian god Janus Quadrifrons 73 Money and free market 74 Tax avoidance and tax evasion 75 Alpha 2000 76 Roni Lynn Deutch 77 The History of South Africa in the Apartheid Era 78 Your vote please 79 Use of [citation needed] 80 AGF 81 Power Prawn goes on the offensive 82 License tagging for Image:CALUMO logo.jpg 83 CALUMO 84 CSD G11 85 Black box 86 Koevoet 87 Tax havens edit 88 Lighter than air 89 Please stop removing assessment templates 90 Comment reply

[edit] Gauss

Paul, I did edit the article to make it correct. Look at the page history, several months ago. It originally said that Gauss proved necessity and sufficiency (I'm assuming this is what "completely solved" and "determined all constructible regular polygons" means.) I changed it so that it correctly only attributes sufficiency to Gauss, but does not give him credit for necessity. I didn't feel Wantzel was necessary to mention, because it's an article on Gauss in general, not on constructible numbers, say. Revolver 01:13, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Apology received...don't worry about it. I've certainly made similar hasty requests. Better to be bold in making suggestions than never suggest anything at all. Revolver 03:14, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome from RickK

Hi. Welcome to Wikipedia. Note that this is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. You may want to visit Wiktionary to add dictionary definitions. RickK 05:02, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. Yup, it's not a dictionary! I'm still finding my way around. I'm not sure you will see this, for example! User:Psb777

Hey, Psb, I don't think my email is turned off. But anyway, you posted on my Talk page. What did you want to say? RickK 18:36, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] RCC

I am/was a Catholic and have never come across someone called a "deacon" in the Catholic Church. I am not saying they do not exist - but if they do they just cannot be particularly common.

I am amazed that you would think deacons are not commonplace in the Catholic Church. See Holy Orders and the online Catholic Encyclopedia or any of many Catholic web sites. And read the canons of the Council of Trent. Michael Hardy 20:30, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)

As you mention, the online Catholic Encyclopedia has little about the current role of deacons. That's because it was written nearly 100 years ago. But inquire at the nearest Catholic church. Michael Hardy 03:57, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Also see [1] and deacon. Michael Hardy 04:04, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hello, I already performed your desired move. You may want to see Wikipedia:How to rename a page. I also deleted Roman Catholic Church new. I will move your comments over to Talk:Roman Catholic Church and delete again. Should I also delete Was Roman Catholic Church? --Jiang 19:26, 24 Jan 2004 (PST)

It is certainly not true that "typically there is no usher". This varies geographically. In large Catholic congregations in the USA, typically there are ushers. Did you do that google search I suggested? It is commonplace for Catholic churches in the USA to call certain lay persons "liturgical ministers" if they assist in minor (or major) ways at liturgies: altar servers, greeters, ushers, readers, extraordinary ministers of communion, various others.

The above undated paragraph was inserted by User:Michael Hardy well after I pointed out the regional differences in Catholic minister. Just examine the logs. Yet, here he is, seemingly pointing them out to me beforehand!

A google search on the words "Catholic", "liturgical", "minister" (i.e., all three words but not necessarily in that order) suggests that it is commonplace to regard altar servers, lectors, and even ushers as "liturgical ministers" in the Catholic church. Many parishes have a "liturgical minister schedule" on their web sites. Michael Hardy 02:15, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Stan

Yup. Stan 14:55, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC) You alerted me to wikis' exiistence in a reference to U.N.C.L.E. in one of your newsletters. what do I have to do/have in order to have a wiki of my own?

Trophallaxis Stan 16:56, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

You send out unsolicited and opinonated newsletters. In knew something about trophallaxis that hadn't been recorded hitherto in wikipedia, and thought that perhaps you didn't know it either. Therefore I surmised that it might be news to you. quid pro quo. By analogy, your 'vomiting' your opinions on unsuspecting PSB newsletter recipients, invoked a reciprocal metaphorical self-referential trophallaxis by yours truly.

Incidentally, can you remember the other words that form the class of self-referential terms such as pentasyllabic - which has five syllables? I think there are about half a dozen words that fit this category.

A couple of jokes: (this one heard on Radio 4, so yo've probably already heard it). Guy gets stopped on the M25 for going too slowly. "But it's the M25", he explains to the traffic cop. "M25 doesn't mean you have to go at 25 m.p.h," retorts the cop, who then proceeds to inspect this driver's vehicle. On the back seat is a guy who's clearly in a state of trauma. "what's the matter with him?" the policeman asks the driver. "Oh, we just came off the B128."

And: A guy goes into a public library and asks the librarian for a Bigmac, large fries and medium Coke. The librarian explain,"You do realise this is a library." "Oh sorry", the guy replies, and then whispers, "I'll have a Bigmac, large fries and medium Coke."

Stan 17:25, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Please don't take me off your list. 217.44.157.197 Stan 02:01, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I don't think missspelt counts as a self-referential word. The test: If the subject on Just A Minute was 'self-referential' then would Nicholas Parsons allow the buzzer on 'missspelt' (with three esses) as a Deviation? I suggest he would, or at least would award a Bonus Point for a clever challenge. Stan 09:01, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC) - and of course you couldn't say miss-spelt properly without being done for hesitation! You can't have a word that requires hesitation in order to say it properly. How about he...sitation? You wouldn't allow that because you have to change the word to make it self-referential. Same applies to missspelt, plus the fact that you can misspell misspelt in - how many ways can you misspell misspelt, because they'd all be equivalent to missspelt? Stan 20:23, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Longest word?

Also see http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Lopadotemachoselachogaleokranioleipsanodrimhypotrimmatosilphioparaomelitokatakechymenokichlepikossyphophattoperisteralektryonoptekephalliokigklopeleiolagoiosiraiobaphetraganopterygon Stan 09:03, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Missphelt

I think you must give the reason missspelt should not be allowed Stan 20:32, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It is mis-spelt and therefore refers to itself. Which is, by definition, self-reference. Paul Beardsell 05:57, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Self-referential grokking

• pentasyllabic
• fifteen-lettered Stan 20:16, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
• mis-spelt (if that is wrong)

[edit] Moroccan Cuisine

Exchange between me and User:Bcorr moved to Talk:Cuisine of Morocco. Paul Beardsell 01:30, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] sub.sub - primitive Godel machine?

Do you remember sub.sub, the program you wrote all those years ago, the 4GL to end all 4GLs? I wrote a timesheet package in it. It's essential quality, evident in its self-referential name, was that it called itself.

The Godel machine is, I think, intended to be a projection of the Turing Machine, if projection is the right term - I think, incidentally that a Turing machine is also a fiction.

Sub.sub had the capability of being anything, depending on what you fed it. Is that not a characteristic it shares with the would-be Godel machine, and therefore should we not introduce the notion of degrees of Godel-ness (or perhaps Godelidity, or even Godelacity) in the lead-up to the development of an an actual Godel machine? The term I propose is primitive Godel machine, which can be applied to anything that applies recursion or more advanced schemes to engender a synergy that could tend towards serendipity, i.e. lead to the production of an actual Godel machine. Stan 20:21, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The reason for strong reactions against Paul Vogel

Hi Paul. I wanted to give you a answer to your last comment on my talk page.

First, see Wikipedia:Conflicts_between_users#Paul_Vogel/65.125.10.66/24.45.99.191/216.99.245.171 for a little background

Also, I found the source of this quote that Paul Vogel is putting on various pages (including my talk page): It's here -- [2] -- it's from a speech by Kevin Alfred Strom of the National Alliance. Here are some more quotes from the same speech:

• "One occasionally finds examples of real Jewish honesty. I know that will be startling to some of you, but it is undoubtedly true. In the last month, a huge controversy among Jews has emerged over a Jewish book which deals honestly with a central element in the Jewish tradition -- their belief in the inherent superiority of Jews over all non-Jews, a trait that imprisoned writer and thinker David Duke has christened 'Jewish supremacism.'"
• "The height of Jewish hypocrisy is reached when they condemn White people who believe in the White separatist ideals of, say, Thomas Jefferson or the National Alliance, as 'White supremacists' -- when the Jews themselves are the most thoroughgoing racial supremacists the world has ever seen."
• "I urge all of you to study these issues. An excellent way to begin is by reading Jewish Supremacism by David Duke. In this new work, Mr. Duke rips away the shroud of pretended morality from the ugly body of Jewish hate. He reveals the Jewish establishment for what it is: a maniacal racial cult based on hate, exploitation, and genocide of other peoples -- and a cult which is directing its considerable resources against the very survival of White European peoples."

All of Paul Vogel's edits that I've seen to a number of different articles are drawn from this speech. It is clear to me that his goal is to add specific text written by the National Alliance to Wikipedia -- not to add more info or points of view to articles. And that's exactly what he's done to the article I rewrote -- he'll be happy as long as those paragraphs stay in. I would urge you to edit the article and remove that text and see what happens -- not just as a test but because I think it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, and I'm sick of fighting that battle. -- Thanks, BCorr ¤ Брайен 05:48, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvios and VfDs

Dear Paul, good morning! Thank you for your note about Goedel Machine. It was in the Copyvios and it was more than a week old. There was nothing on the talk or temp pages that suggested a permission. Since it was in copyvio, i dont think it ever lived in VfD. If you think its best, i can restore it and put it in VfD. My opinion is that there's no much point in this, because the article was of no encyclopaediac value. Cheers, Muriel 07:39, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hello! The Copyvios page is Wikipedia:Possible copyrights infringements and works like Votes for deletion. If you spot a copy-pasted article, you should substitute it by the boilerplate of copyvios (you will find it in the page) and place the article in question on the list. The Votes for deletion is for articles you consider not worthy of an encyclopaedia. The Goedel machine is eligible for the two! Even if not a copyvio (because the author allows the release in Wikipedia), it certainly does not belong here. But this is my point of view. If you think is "salvagable" let me know, and i'll restore it. Cheers, Muriel 07:28, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wot you need...

...is to become a sysop with the fantastical power to undelete. Stan 23:06, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Doctor

Woops! I overlooked your message earlier, Paul. Sorry about that. No matter. I see that someone has done the sensible thing with doctor already. Best -- Tony. (Tannin 10:43, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC))

Double woops! The change (which I entirely approved of, bar some bad wording here and there that should be easily fixed) has been reverted already, and by your good self! I am a bit slow today. I'll slip over there and put a re-drafted version up for your consideration. (BTW: this isn't a topic I especially care about, and I'll not be troubling with any edit wars over it, even if it should happen that we don't wind up agreeing.) Tannin

[edit] Power corrupts

"Power corrupts, but absolute power is even nicer." - Oscar Wilde. The judicious use of power is a challenge. Become a sysop and enjoy. Also see my contribution on stupidity Stan 23:25, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What devices does one use in order to not obtain too much power? Does one require a special power in order to do this? In my view, expression of the sentiment I mustn't be given too much power is exactly the correct prerequisite to have power forced on you. Did you ever read Charles Handy's Understanding Organisations and his (or rather not his, but he mentions them) notions of tripods and bibods in relation to political power. He makes the point that it is only tripods - who are naturally averse to having power - who should have it, and not bipods, who tend to abuse it. I must infer that you are a tripod born and bred! Stan 19:13, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] POV or not POV

I'm still puzzled by this concept and wondered if you could enlighten me.

Suppose I were writing 500 years ago in Ye Olde Wykipedia and I put: "Travel north and you will reach the North Pole" Someone else would have come along and changed this to: "It is claimed that if you travel north you will reach the North Pole." Fair enough - they wouldn't have wanted to be burned alive at what was claimed by church authorities to be a stake.

But times have changed. It would be absurd for anyone now to claim that you could travel in any direction other than north to reach the North Pole. Therefore NPOV is time-dependent, based on the state of current knowledge.

Now when I have knowledge about something, surely it is more useful for my readers to know that something is true rather than just claimed to be so, i.e. this is an important distinction to make in a so-called encyclopedia. How do I make that distinction without well-meaning trolls coming along and changing all my certain truths into mere claims? The answer must have something to do with the authority of the original writer. Or is this a lost cause, and I have to accept one of the weaknesses of the wikipedia conception is that all its truths are mere claims, all part of the trend towards relativism wherein nothing can really be known by anyone.

If you know a better place to put my musings, e.g. village pump of something, then please indicate. Matt Stan 16:42, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] AI

Can it do the Turing Test? Is that really you, Paul. Matt Stan 02:08, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Prittle prattle

Have you encountered this fellow: Fifelfoo? I am interested in detecting instances of artificial intelligence operating within wikipedia, particularly if they've had their Godel or Turing machine components disabled. Do you think there is any inverse correlation between brain size and swat difficulty? Matt Stan 01:08, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Apologize!!! tkorrovi

Apologize!!!

Apologize!!!

See User_talk:Ugen64/Archive_1#Master_Editor_-_Artificial_Consciousness. tkorrovi is a troll Paul Beardsell 19:08, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Double bind

Paul wrote:

Paul Beardsell thinks people should have enough courage of their convictions so as not to hide behind a pseudonym. Of course, this may be impossible when who you are is considered more important than what you say. He can be e-mailed at <HisFirstName>@<HisSurname>.com

or

Paul Beardsell believes that he is not important enough to warrant hiding behind a pseudonym and can be emailed at <HisFirstName>@<HisSurname>.com Matt Stan 07:26, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Patent nonsense deletion

vote at Wikipedia talk:Patent nonsense Matt Stan 20:09, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Artificial Consciousness

If Tkorrovi begins to revert, don't revert him back. It's against policy to continously revert. :-) ugen64 23:09, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)

The only reason consciousness (artificial) is thriving is because tkorrovi's not editing on it :-). I should revise my statement to say: "don't revert more than 3 times". that's not currently policy; the actual policy says something like "don't revert repeatedly". Check Wikipedia:Revert for more details. ugen64 23:58, Mar 16, 2004 (UTC)

He seems to be very happy guarding his frozen page. Perhaps he doesn't realise that it can't be reverted or developed, and he too is in a state of suspended animation. Matt Stan 00:34, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually he's been reverting things on the talk page, I noticed, making more insignificant unstatements, no doubt. See stupidity, and perhaps consider the conundrum of artificial unconsciousness. Can it exist? I still prefer simulated consciousness to artificial consciousness, and of course simulated unconsciousness would just be playing dead. Matt Stan 00:44, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Joke

Go to password length parameter. Matt Stan 02:10, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Bots and Betfair

ref your note about Betfair's attitude towards Bots, I was merely recycling what their stated opinion in Betfair forum was. They have now revised it to opening BF to bots and encouraging them. --Sjc 06:57, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

hehe your bots and my bots; I wonder how many other bots there were out there? Anyway, the text of the page was fundamentally correct, although now probably merits a small revision to reflect the status quo. --Sjc 08:20, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

very profitably :) To the extent I live a life of idle leisure and academic endeavour very comfortably :) --Sjc 11:53, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] chatbot

see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3520834.stm Matt Stan 08:06, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Research into dolphins in the Bahamas

See link: http://www.dolphincommunicationproject.org/dcp.asp#bah

[edit] libertarian?

I always thought that libertarian ment no safety net, govt. services, or restraints on monopolies. I have voted libertarian before, and green, and even for Perot and Buchannen ;) , but from what I know of libertarian, its as stripped down as a govt. can get w/o anarchy. I on the other hand would like mandatory military service, mandatory health care, and a bare minimum of other services as well. There should be no hunger, homelessness, or joblessness in a civilized nation, nor should industry be allowed to pollute w/o powerful tax penalties as a decentive. Instead of removing all taxes, I'd rather eliminate income tax, and focus on carrot/stick taxes on business. I've taken this test [3] and it says I'm mildly left and authoritarian, but essentially centrist. Sam Spade 03:29, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Chatbots

A couple of interchanges:

Lingubot said to me:

"I must apologize. My memory does not consist of unlimited megabytes. If I had a few billion neurons such as you humans we might be able to carry on a much different conversation, not that I am jealous of the clump of Jello pudding in your head!"

From Ella: Q6: Is snow cold? Bot: Well that depends entirely on what the meaning of "is" is! Matt Stan 22:30, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Epistemology

What others say I can know, and what I know, make interesting comparisons. Are you proposing that there should be an epistemological component in the AC machine, or would the knowledge that the artifact possessed be an extrapolation/interpolation from the other engines, e.g. personality(=will?), attention, perception sub-components, etc., as required? Matt Stan 15:36, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] My comments on talk page

I'm sorry but why you deleted my comments [4] and [5] when it's obvious that they cannot be considered to be any attack by anybody? Tkorrovi 03:14, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] the "racism thing"

I just wanted to ask you to stop arguing about that. It is not worth the effort, I think. But obviously it's your problem. Pfortuny 11:26, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot: I just wrote the same thing to both of you, so it wasn't a one-sided comment. :) Pfortuny 12:13, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

My apologies, then. Pfortuny 13:39, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Flesh and Machines

Have you read Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks? See http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/brooks/books-movies.shtml Matt Stan 10:34, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

The artificial consciousness article includes all views whatever are proposed, for and against, what still doesn't satisfy you Paul, why you still insist that article is not NPOV? Tkorrovi 00:00, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Answer why

Why you treat me like this, why you call me paranoid? Do you think that it is justified to offend the others? Would you promise to stop offending me unconditionally? Tkorrovi 14:55, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Virus?

I have re-organised my room, moving the computer away from the window. I did this because I had heard there are windows viruses. I'm not quite sure how they propagate, but the idea of photons coming through my window and somehow finding an affinity with my operating system was very scary. I must have done my move not quite just in time, because now there is evidence (which you have kindly pointed out) of the destructive capabilities of this virus, and in no other place than the sacred area of talk:artificial consciousness. I don't think there are any other outbreaks, but please warn me if you see any, and I shall keep the curtains drawn just in case. Matt Stan 18:59, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I've also put the hi-fi units on a wooden trolley and topped them with the video projector. I can wheel the whole thing round the room (subject to the constraints of the spaghetti of umbilical cables) and adjust the orientation of the projector easily from the sofa with my toes. The computer screen looks on inanimately, waiting for the program that will enervate it into synthetic consciousness. Actually it's not waiting yet, or at least isn't aware, naturally, that it might be so enervated one day. When it is, we can sit and watch videos together and look each other in the eye/synthetic eye, each aware of the other's awareness and probably not much else, at least to start with... Matt Stan 18:59, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ability to learn

Ability to learn is, according to some experts, something that can be lost in certain people. The question is whether someone who has lost this ability should nevertheless be deemed conscious. I pick as an illustration someone who has had pointed out to them on numerous occasions that they make an elementary mistake in their written grammar but who nevertheless carries on making the same mistake. This might be taken as an inability to learn. When, extraordinarliy, the person who has shown this inability claims that an ability to learn is a pre-requisite of consciousness, one must arrive at the absurd conclusion either that that person is not conscious, or that an ability to learn is not a pre-requisite of consciousness. QED Matt Stan 20:27, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

The latter. Paul Beardsell 20:31, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

The synthetic consciousness page is taking shape slowly. I'm wondering whether it might attract another contributor. Matt Stan 20:27, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Talking of learning... Matt Stan 20:27, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

An interesting discovery, word order in some languages, doesn't matter. There is one in particular where this primciple has even been extended to URLs, which is quite remarkable. See http://ee.www.ee/ Matt Stan 20:41, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] G.W. Bush quotes on war crimes

Hello Paul. Thank you for helping me make clear the relevance and un-POV nature of the Bush quotes. I think that, however they reflect on the administration (since we can't know for certain how they will act in the future), they are an important part of the Abu Ghraib situation.

I made a few changes to my original entry and would like you opinion on it and on how it can be ameliorated:

---

In 2003, American president George W. Bush made some declarations on the subject of war crimes during public speeches. These may or may not represent the positions that his administration will take regarding the Abu Ghraib situation.

• War crimes will be prosecuted, war criminals will be punished and it will be no defense to say, "I was just following orders." -George W. Bush, 3/19/2003

• I expect them to be treated, the POWs, I expect to be treated humanely, just like we're treating the prisoners that we have captured humanely. If not, the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals. -George W. Bush, 3/23/2003

• Given the nature of this regime, we expect such war crimes. But we will not excuse them. War criminals will be hunted relentlessly and judged severely. -George W. Bush, 3/28/2003

---

[edit] Space elevator

Actually, even Rei didn't seem too unhappy about the suggested changes (except for some aspects of point ii); although she commented in detail about all of them anyway. We could certainly try making the economics section closer to what there is in everything2 and see what happens. Wolfkeeper

[edit] Prurient

Excuse me, did you just argue that Wikipedia should NOT be prurient and then say that you restored the prurient material? User: Felix F. Bruyns

OK, so I misused the word. Paul Beardsell 01:24, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Afrikaans and Flemish

Hello Paul, I removed the Flemish reference because of these reasons:

1. As I understand it, Afrikaans is linguistically largely derived from the dialect of Zuid-Holland, which is a Netherlandic dialect
2. Flemish as such is either one of two Belgian Dutch dialects (East- and West-Flemish) or generally a umbrella name for the kind of standard Dutch used in Belgium. As far as I can see, the Southern Dutch (= Belgian) dialects had little to do with the development of Afrikaans, as long before Van Riebeecks foundation of Kaapstad the southern Dutch Provinces had split from the United Provinces, remaining under Spanish rule — another contributing factor for the current many small differences between Netherlandic and Belgian Dutch.
3. Except maybe for (geographically) fringe dialects such as Gronings or Limburgs, *all* bits of Dutch and Afrikaans are mutually understanding, and so singling out Flemish seemed random, especially considering points 1. and 2.

I honestly thought the Flemish reference was trivial. But, of course, I should've discussed it first before deleting. Cwoyte 11:58, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Please refer to my user talk page for further answers/solutions. Cwoyte 07:16, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

---

Paul, I have moved the Afrikaans discussion, which Elf-friend has joined as well, from my user talk page to the talk page of the Afrikaans language article, so everybody who's interested can have a view and, if so desired, contribute. Cwoyte 09:14, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Bowdlerism"

It's not Bowdlerism to delete nonsensical trivia about which movies an actress appears nude in. Should we indicate what color her hair is in those movies? RickK 22:35, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)

You planning on going into every actor and actress's article and annotating them? RickK 23:25, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)

Non sequitur. Reply on RickK's page. Paul Beardsell 23:27, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with prudery and has everything to do with making an encyclopedia, not a list of trivia. RickK 23:33, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)

That is your opinion. Leave the article alone. I think best to continue this on the talk page of the article as is customary. This comment will be duplicated on your page. Paul Beardsell 23:36, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Orbits

• Paul, your suggestion of categorizing various types of orbital / suborbital flights by energy or delta-V is insightful, and will create a much better article. Go for it. -- The Anome 10:47, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Watch this space!

Does the space cover any particular territory and, if so, is it within the M25? Matt Stan 10:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Watching

Rest assured you're on my watchlist Matt Stan 16:09, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Types of intelligence

Talk:Theory of multiple intelligences#Other theories Matt Stan 19:36, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Data Management Wiki Committee

Thank you for your contribution to one, or more, articles that are now organized under Data management.

Because of your previous intrest, you are recieving an invitation to become a founding member of the Data Management Wiki Committee.

The members, of course, will form and solidify the purpose, rules, officers, etc. but my idea (to kick things off) is to establish a group of us who will take responsiblity to see that the ideas of Data management are promoted and well represented in Wikipedia articles.

If you are willing to join the committee, please go to Category_talk:Data_management and indicate your acceptance of this invitation by placing your three tilde characters in the list.

KeyStroke 01:05, 2004 Sep 25 (UTC)

[edit] Could you have a look at this?

Judging by your contributions to space elevator economics and the like, I was wondering if you might have a look at space activity suit, which I wrote a stub for. It's an interesting and traditionally underreported subject; if you can give it the once-over, it'd be really nice. grendel|khan 05:36, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)

[edit] History of Greenland

Could you explain your objection to "effectively detached"? "Less influenced" seems far to slight since the island was occupied by the U.S. throughout the war which attacked any Germans found in the area. The U.S. even printed the postage stamps for the island. Rmhermen 03:40, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

[edit]  ! was watching...

... the space as instructed, but it went blank. Should I construe from this that a very private affair is in progress? Matt Stan 10:38, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] He's back!

Matt Stan 01:38, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV label

Why did you add NPOV label to artificial consciousness article? You wrote your reasons for NPOV on article's talk page, these were satisfied, and the appropriate changes made, now also another user wanted to remove the NPOV label. For these reasons the NPOV label was removed. Now you did not write any explanation on the talk page, before adding the NPOV label. By the rules of Wikipedia, please write your reasons of adding the NPOV label to the article, on the article's talk page, otherwise the NPOV label should be removed. Tkorrovi 14:24, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The mediation thing.

Well. Looking at this completely from the outside it looks as if there is a certain shared pessimism about the counterpartys reasonableness around the Artificial consciousness page. Be that as it may, we have stages in our dispute resolution process, and before forcing any of you into an arbitration framework, we usually try mediation first. Even if none of you all think it will acheive anything, can I rely on your support in following the procedure in respect of trying mediation? -- Cimon 21:15, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you for your response.

I choose to interpret your reply as being a positive (though reserved) one. Perhaps it is best we take further communications into E-mail. -- Cimon 22:19, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Article Licensing

Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:

• Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
• Multi-Licensing Guide
• Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

Option 1

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

OR

Option 2

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions to any [[U.S. state]], county, or city article as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" with "{{MultiLicensePD}}". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

[edit] Talk:Tax

Please see Talk:Tax for a response to your revert. Rhobite 07:09, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Revert: South Africa coup

I reverted your change because état also means government in French, as witness the term "L'était français." Thus, coup d'états are directed against government, not countries. You cannot have a country overthrow itself. That is why I reverted. Páll 04:10, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have replied on your talk page. Paul Beardsell 02:15, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration

An arbitration request was submitted against you at [6]. It's unfortunate, but you didn't leave me other choice. Tkorrovi 13:19, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Grunt & the arbitration case

I am merely acknowledging that there is a problem that needs to be looked at; it is traditional arbitration procedure to render an opinion on the opening of a case as soon as there is any evidence to look through, and revise opinions as more evidence becomes available. There is also a typical waiting period of one week between the opening of a case and the rendering of any reasonably well formed opinions by arbitrators. Rest assured you will have an ample opportunity to respond to the charges against you. -- Grunt   ҈  20:52, 2005 Mar 28 (UTC)

I have replied on Grunt's talk page. Paul Beardsell 04:38, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fred Bauder and the arbitration case

Please see Fred's talk page for the message to which Fred replies below and my response to that. Paul Beardsell 04:37, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tkorrovi has put a number of diffs in his request which I have looked at. Granted most date from May, 2004 but the last few date from December, 2004. I also looked at the article history and looked at recent comments directed at him. Whether he is good or competent editor I cannot say but you do seem to attack him personally in a rude way. And he does demonstrate that by the diffs he has cited. Fred Bauder 11:35, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Tkorrovi has established that there is enough of a problem that it needs to be heard. Any evidence you present will also be considered. Fred Bauder 11:32, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

I have responded again on Fred's page.

[edit] Kbdank71's POV

Paul, this is just an outsider's point of view, but if you spent half the time responding to the complaint instead of complaining about why you can't respond, the case would likely be over. If you are innocent as you say, stop procrastinating and prove it. (or not, your antics are quite amusing) -Kbdank71 22:28, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, if I knew precisely what the charge was, and whether I need only respond to those identified as "statement", not "comment", then I would be in a better position to start. On the other hand, if I knew what the penalty which has already been decided was, I might just plead guilty. Because I am not confident it is worthwhile arguing the case. Anybody half awake who followed the links provided by Tkorrovi and read the context would not be accepting this case for arbitration. Contempt of court is sometimes apt, it just isn't allowed! I have made thousands of edits on scores of articles, often successfully fixing the edits of the likes of Tkorrovi, who has edited only one article, mostly to its detriment. My criticisms of Tkorrovi's edits have been taken wrongly by him as personal abuse - fixing his English led him to accusing me of racism! He is a troll, and I did not say so carelessly, nor does so saying amount to personal abuse. What was careless, perhaps, was recently criticising the head of the arbitration committee about his sloppy application of standards when approving Johannesburg as a featured article. And now he intends to sit in judgment of me despite my request that he withdraw. Why bother arguing my case? Paul Beardsell 23:00, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's an encyclopedia, not an experiment in democracy. You now have seven days to prove your side, or you can waste it like you have been. Complaining about the process is your right, I suppose, but it won't win you the case. Although like I said, I hope you do keep it up; I'm not on the Arbcom, so I can admit this is hilarious. -Kbdank71 04:49, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Raul654

Copied from Raul654's talk page:

---

I note you have given an indication that you intend to make known your opinion in the Tkorrovi vs Psb777 dispute. I find myself in the position that should you decide in some way in my favour I can keep quiet but that if you find against me then I will, in my own mind at least, point to a recent disagreement between us over the Johannesburg featured article debate where I criticised you. I ask therefore that you simply do not voice an opinion - I believe any juror would excuse themselves in your position. Paul Beardsell 00:03, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It has been well established that criticizing an arbitrator is not suffecient grounds to cause the arbitrator to recuse himself -- wikipedia is not large enough to expect arbitrators to have had no interaction with parties. I'll recuse if I think I'm prejuiced in favor of or against you, which I do not believe I am. →Raul654 01:02, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

I cannot find where that has been well established. Perhaps you can provide a reference. Wikipedia is large enough. It isn't whether an arbitrator is prejudiced but whether the appearance or suspicion of prejudice is possible or reasonable. Whatever has or has not been established it should matter to you most of all whether I will be happy with you sitting in judgement on me. Paul Beardsell 01:39, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. The appearance of impropriety is *NOT* the standard used for recusals -- wikipedia is not large enough for that. Arbitrators *do* interact with the community, and it is not uncommon for us to have interacted with the parties before. You have no choice in who will be arbitrating your case, nor does your happiness about it matter in the least -- the matter is entirely up to the arbitrators themselves. Arbitrators are expected to judge for themselves whether or not they are prejudiced. Previous cases that established this were (off the top of my head) the Lir cases, the first Netoholic case, RK, and 172. I do not intend to apply any special standard to your case. →Raul654 02:07, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Once before I have seen you unable or unwilling to address an argument cogently put. I have no confidence in your ability to judge fairly the dispute I am involved in and so I ask you to withdraw. Paul Beardsell 02:30, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] in prep

/draft

---

[edit] Arbitration Committee case opening

The request for arbitration involving you has officially been accepted. Please bring formal evidence to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tkorrovi vs. Paul Beardsell/Evidence. Thank you. -- Grunt   ҈  00:18, 2005 Apr 1 (UTC)

[edit] Is hunting sport?

I would not wish to cause any encroachment of freedoms to be extended in duration as a result of myself enjoining in an arbitration dispute. I would only wish to bring it more speedily to a close. I myself would undertake not to edit the artificial consciousness article if it meant that someone whom I had suspected of being a troll were also be bound by such an undertaking. I'm not sure that the wikipedia arbitration procedure has explicit provision for people who might come forward saying, "Hey, you missed me out. I should be banned from editing the artificial consciousness too because I am just as much to blame in winding up one of the parties as is one of the accused. Or would that automatically imply that the whole debacle had been a wind-up exercise rather than an exercise in common sense. (Because, ironically, if humans can't function with common sense on the topic or artificial consciousness, then how on earth might the automatons fare?) But I did it in the name of entertainment, honest gov, because I know that there are or could be some observers who would be amused by the irony of a prolonged wikipedia dispute on such a topic." Matt Stan 23:26, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] arbitration

You've done much of what tkorrovi has done (personal attacks, wholesale reversion, etc.), but obviously he wouldn't provide evidence against himself, and so I provided that evidence for the arbcom, as you hadn't already done so. But calling him a troll isn't going to help your case any. I can't honestly and fairly say that you shouldn't be punished to some extent for your questionable actions. ugen64 00:10, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I supposed I was wrong then - the 3rr block rule wasn't in effect then, so technically I wouldn't have been empowered to block him anyway. It doesn't matter if you were provoked - the personal attacks didn't just go away because you were provoked, and same for the reverts - bringing other users and trying to mediate the dispute would have been more constructive. And finally, tkorrovi's already provided ample evidence against you - I would just be redundant if I inserted that evidence again, under my name. ugen64 01:59, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"If you don't like the way this is going you could just withdraw your request for arbitration." No, because I'm interested in justice, and if there is no justice, I want to find it out.Tkorrovi 13:30, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chinasaur's on ArbCom case

Copied from Tkorrovi's talk page: Chinasaur, I think you misunderstand. I am preparing a mass of evidence which will show Tkorrovi in bad light. I think he is aware of it - it is available as a link from my Talk page. I am giving Tkorrovi a chance to back down, to say: "OK, let's forget it all, there is (no longer?) any real problem". Then we can all go home and I do not need to defend myself. You seem to forget that I did not bring this case. Nor do I think I really provoked its bringing - this is mostly all many months ago. All I did recently was (i) revert a deletion by Tkorrovi of some interesting material and (ii) delete an unparseable sentence he added. It's in the log. And upon his reversion of my changes I see someone else has done what I did without complaint by him. But I wonder if you are saying that Tkorrovi deserves some special consideration of which I am unaware. I at least credit Tkorrovi with "all the capabilities of a normal human" (to use one of his favorite phrases at artificial consciousness). Why do you patronise him so condescendingly? Paul Beardsell 07:08, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi Paul, why would I think you brought the case when you are trying to get Tkorrovi to drop it? Basically to me your attempts to get the case dropped seem wheedling or bullying because there is an implicit threat ("I am about to unleash all this evidence against you if you don't")? Perhaps you didn't mean for it to be threatening and are really trying to be magnanimous or give fair warning; I don't know. I can see what you mean that the case seems strangely after-the-fact.

In terms of my treatment of Tkorrovi, I am stuck deciding between alternative explanations for his behavior (essentially: bad faith versus cluelessness), which leaves me not really knowing how to deal with him. I'm not aware of any reason why he deserves special treatment though. Try to bear in mind that I honestly don't have time to go through all the evidence, so conclusions that you feel are obvious are not knowable by me. --Chinasaur 01:13, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration Committee injunction

The Arbitration Committee has passed an injunction related to your case; you and Tkorrovi are hereby prohibited from editing artificial consciousness for the duration of the case. -- Grunt   ҈  14:35, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration proposed decision page

Only arbitrators are supposed to edit the proposed decision page directly; others' proposed additions should be put on the talk page. I've moved your recent one there - David Gerard 12:40, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Only arbitrators are allowed to edit the proposed decision page. That's all there is to it. Please don't re-add the principle again, else I'll have to protect the page. Feel free to make suggestions on the talk page, however. Ambi 06:16, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

It's always been implied, which is why no one else has ever done it. We can always make it explicit if you like, seeing as the arbitration committee has the authority to decide its own procedures. You've suggested your principle on the talk page. If an arbitrator agrees with it, they may decide to add it. Ambi 06:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] PSB v Tkorrovi

You wrote: It seems futile scoring these minor points but what should I be doing? Should I have just refused to take part in the process at all? Paul Beardsell 19:32, 17 May 2005

The arbcom has just produced a list of stuff for us to ponder on, and I think that's it. It's all highly dignified. Not a bad system. The arbcom guys have just sat and thought, what are these guys not paying attention to which is giving them all these problems? Now let us hope that Tkorrovi quotes in future from the pages cited, at least he won't need to worry about the grammar. Matt Stan 23:26, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Personal Attacks wot you are making

You accuse me of making personal attacks on another wikipedia user on my talk page what seems to me like you are making a personal attack on me by accusing me of making personal attack on another wikipedia user. Please retract such an accusation as this what is not right in wikipedia and is a personal attack on someone what only wants to be liked by everyone and will go to the arbitration committee some long time in the future if your attack what you make do not be withdrawn. Matt Stan 14:50, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

You wrote: If it's such a good process perhaps you should take a more active role. E.g. you could apologise for all the personal attacks you made on Tkorrovi. :-) Paul Beardsell 03:59, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Being the sophisticate that I am (or sophist, perhaps), and with the experience I have in dealing with some quite difficult people (in my charity work) I have, I hope, learned to make the distinction between attacking things that I don't like and attacking people that I don't like. In pursuing the latter course (which must always be done surreptitiously), or in any event, one focuses exclusively on the former, i.e. one attacks the things that have been done rather than the person doing them, and thereby, if one is detached enough, one always avoids the accusation of making "personal" attacks. This is because, by applying this principle, one's attacks are "impersonal". I think you'll find, if you carefully examine the contributions I have made in the PSB vs Tkorrovi affair, that I have kept to this principle.

Now as for acting as an agent provocateur, generating wind-ups, fanning the flames, playing on someone else's ignorance by being deliberately ambiguous, and so on and so forth, I could probably be held guilty on all counts. But I am not the accused, though I did offer you and Tkorrovi the opportunity to have me arraigned for my sins. Perhaps my "court jester" role has not been as destructive as I imagine it might have been, simply because I try to apply that good old High Church Xtian principle of "Love thy neighbour (whilst at the same time hating the things that he does)".

Rather than do as you suggest, I should apologise to you, and I do, as it seems that the arbcom perceives you in a worse light than it should, and I have not acted effectively to alter that perception. They have taken the part, as many judges do, of the underdog, ironically defending the syntactically challenged contributor against the articulate one, ostensibly in "an effort to create and distribute a free encyclopedia of the highest possible quality" (Jimbo Wales). Perhaps you should ask arbcom to restrict User:Tkorrovi (or getting him to agree) to contributing only to the artificial consciousness article in future. I'm sure he wouldn't mind. Matt Stan 11:03, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A distant relation?

Are you by any chance related to Beardbeard. Matt Stan 01:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re. comment on arbitration page

For future reference, I'm female. -- sannse (talk) 17:00, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding proposed finding of fact

I am just taking my first serious look at the edits in this matter. Perhaps you can answer some questions: did either of you ever read or quote any information out of Igor Aleksander's work? Or any other reference work that treats of artificial consciousness? At this point, without reading the hundreds of edits involved, you both seem to be using reason rather than references. Fred Bauder

[edit] "Response" by Ambi

I apologise for taking some time to go diff-hunting, alas, I've been quite busy. It shouldn't matter, as there hasn't been much, if any, action on your case in the last couple of days. I'll get to dealing with it as soon as I can. Ambi 03:13, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will respond on her Talk page. Paul Beardsell 19:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Concern

User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#.3D.3DA_concern.3D.3D Matt Stan 9 July 2005 10:53 (UTC)

[edit] Garlic beer

If you been haven't already, do go to the Garlic Restaurant in Helsinki, where you can have garlic beer. It's actually ordinary beer, with fresh garlic crushed into it. The French, great users of garlic, have a president who showed the Finns great disrespect by recently criticising their food. But not even the French, as far as I am aware, have a restautant dedicated to garlic, implying that the French president is an ignoramus as well as being rather crass at diplomacy. Oh well, c'est la vie! If you obtain a taste for garlic beer whilst in Finland (or even of you don't) then I can try my own version, perhaps using cheap French lager, which you'd be welcome to sample. I'll also lay in some some English Ale, which will undoubtedly be necessary in order to refresh the palate. 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th of August are safest for me being around. I'm not quite sure what I'll be up to in the preceding week. Matt Stan 19:22, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Advocate wanted?

Hi, I've looked through the Request for arbitration. What is it that you wanted an advocate to help you with? I'm a relative newcomer here, but I'm willing to help if I can. BTW, I hesitate to say this, as I know that things can be difficult when you feel you've been wronged, but the reference to "malicious prosecution" by the ArbCom probably isn't going to help your case. Just looking through the proceedings with the eyes of an outsider, I have yet no reason to believe there is any malice involved. However, I'm certainly willing to keep an open mind and try to help if I can. Friday 06:13, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration case - final decision

A decision has been reached in the arbitration case relating to you. You have been banned from the article artificial consciousness indefinitely, and are subject to a six-month personal attack parole. Please see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tkorrovi and Paul Beardsell#Final decision for further details and the full decision. -- sannse (talk) 21:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dear Sir.

Please forgive my comments into your dialogue with Theresa Knott. I apologize to you if I have taken any steam out of your efforts here in Wikipedia,

Recently, I have become particularly incensed by the actions of dominant participants interjecting themselves in my own affairs, and remain at something of a loose other than to return the affront. I trust you may in the least understand my frustration in this matter. Again, my apologies to you for any inconvenience I may have caused. TTLightningRod 22:26, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Blocked by Snowspinner

Without justification. Without explanation. But his draw is quick and his aim is fine. If only he were a fairer man. Paul Beardsell 01:13, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I think that that is the point. Had I been blocked by anyone else it would actually mean something. But having the town's rogue cop giving you the once over is just unremarkable. Paul Beardsell 01:36, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

He knows I dislike him. And his arbitrary heavy handed actions. You think he would let someone else do the block, if it were necessary, for appearances sake. Paul Beardsell 01:36, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Because, with all this talk of bullying, here we do really have one. Here really is the best argument that adminship should be renewable, not for life. Then mistakes like this could more eaily be undone. Paul Beardsell 01:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

And so Cokesniffer read this and he extended the block. But he didn't do it properly. He didn't amend the reason. He breaks the rules to enforce the rules. Paul Beardsell 14:56, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like the autoblocker to me. When you try to edit whilst blocked, the software resets the timer. That's why the reson doesn't change. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 15:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I would apologise but I am doing so only selectively nowadays, on a basis of whom I might reasonably expect to offer me an apology, ever. Seems like a software fix is necessary. It cannot have been anyone's intention that it should work that way. Not having been informed by SlushShoveller I was blocked (it seems common politeness would require that) how could I know that hitting the edit button would extend the block? Paul Beardsell 15:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

As fas as I know it's a feature not a bug. You did know you were blocked because you say so above. It was the edit you tried to make the next day that extended the block. If you ever find yourself blocked again (and with the personal attacks against snowspinner on this page you are going the right way about it) you can check the list of blocked users on the special pages link (to the left) to see when the block expires. That way you wont trip the autoblocker again. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 15:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Using this 2nd block to best advantage: Experiment shows me that however it works, it doesn't work as Theresa describes. Back to initial premise in the absence of denial: SensitiveNickName re-applies the block without explanation. Unreasonable. Some people should not be given special powers. They can't help themselves. Paul Beardsell 20:48, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm! OK, maybe it does. Seems to work a little inconsistently. I still think it is a weird implementation. Rather than have the s/w block a 24 hr period - which is what is, err, legislated for - it does more: It imposes a 24 hr period of no edit attempts. Paul Beardsell 15:23, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

But you still seem to assume that one would know one was blocked before one would know one was blocked. Given the lack of notification by he who acts unfairly but without censure. Paul Beardsell 16:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Blocked again. Interesting, isn't it, that I get blocked for the corruption of someone's nickname. As if "Snowspinner" has 100% positive connotations. That's petty minded and an abuse of power. A flexing of muscles to satisfy a personal grievance. Obviously, and this is always eventually agreed when it is discussed, it is better to get another admin to impose a block when one feels personally agrieved. Shoeslipper would know that. Paul Beardsell 16:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the coriolis effect article

Hi Paul,

I hope I can persuade you to read the article carefully, and think the logic through. The coriolis effect is really cool physics, and much underestimated.

If you look through the history of the article you will see edit from me over a period of months. I have really immersed myself in the subject, and I hope you will too. --Cleon Teunissen | Talk 13:49, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Obligate" vs. "oblige"

They have meanings that often overlap, but are not identical. "Obligate" typically has more of a legal flavour (to compel one to do something), whereas "oblige" typically has more of a social flavour (to do something as a favor). As well, their usages differ slightly in American and U.K. English. If you compare definitions in a good dictionary you will note this. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:21, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reflexive "oblige"

In colloquial use by some, "oblige" may mean that which is reflexively opposite to "obligate."

E.g.: Accepting a Dinenr Invitation:

"I beg your pardon, I obligated you to attend this dinner by accepting on your behalf." OR "We are obligated to attend." ...

PARALLELS "I will oblige her to accept my invitation by accepting hers."

BUT "He has obliged us many times by attending in place of last-minute cancellations."

In this last usage, obliged begins to acquire the sense of "submitting to" as opposed to "causing some submission" Mark 18:19, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recognise a deity when you encounter one

I was considering making an additional entry at the List of people who have been considered deities. I imagine that working at customs gives one a headstart in any such consideration. You inspect all incomers and then, in a flash of inspiration, you divine that they are not who they say they are. Well not all of them, of course, but any who make disparaging remarks about the customs hall such as "This place needs a bit of a clean up". You then immediately spring into action, even if you have been invisible hitherto, and make revelatory remarks in a superior language. I can think of one candidate "considered deity", who has the quality of being able to lurk for limitless periods invisibly and then of immediately recognising s prophet, even when heavily disguised for a long time. Surely this makes such a person worthy of being considered a deity, even if only for a short while. Matt Stan 22:10, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] User Bill of Rights

You may be interested in Wikipedia:User Bill of Rights. (SEWilco 05:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] regarding free market and the use of fiat_money

A free market by definition requires no coercion at all, and fiat_money is a fruit of coercion produced by a central authority with the impose of taxes. As a concequence a free market in order to be really free should not use fiat money. Thats what I want to state and clarify in the free market definition. Onassi 10:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I have replied at User talk:Onassi. Paul Beardsell 20:03, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Thessalian god Janus Quadrifrons

Janus was Thessalian, he was a god worshipped by Romans but not by Greeks. But he was not a Roman god, he was Thessalian god like all the rest Olympian gods worshipped by the Romans. Thats what I want to state and clarify. Onassi 10:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I have replied at User talk:Onassi. Paul Beardsell 20:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

You said: No! Most all the Roman gods were Greek. By "Roman god" it is meant a god worshipped by Romans, not a god who carried a Roman passport. You are muddying the waters by misunderstanding this. And to be consistent you will have to repeat your treatment of Janus to all the other gods too.

To illustrate this point: Jesus Christ was a Jew from Palestine. We do not refer to him as a Palestinian God nor as a Jewish God. When a god is a Something god he is a god of the Somethings, not a god from Somethingland. Jesus is the Christian God, the God of the Christians. Janus was a Roman god. A god of the Romans. Point proven? Can I now revert all your changes or do you want to tidy them up yourself?.

First of all we are talking about god(s), not God. If you consider Jesus a God, then of course Jesus is not considered to be a jew god. But if you consider Jesus a god, then you may say that Jesus was a jew god worshipped by the Christians. Regarding the thessalian Olympians now, all of them are refered everywhere in literature as Greek gods worshipped by Romans (and greeks). The only exception which cause a misunderstanding is Janus, who is refered by many people as a pure Roman god. This is wrong, Janus was not a roman god, he was a greek thessalian god, who was not worshipped by greeks but only by the romans (or maybe he was worshipped by the greeks in the compound of Hermes and another god). Onassi 20:31, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course I am aware that some believe Jesus to be the one and true God (or part of the one and true Holy Trinity, or whatever) and some believed that Janus was a true god too. (The capitalisation I am using is one dictated by [Christian?] grammar books - not by my personal beliefs.) Convention is not as you describe. Paul Beardsell 20:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Imagine an exam question: "Name the Roman gods?" What is your answer? Paul Beardsell 20:37, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

For your argument to be valid you would have to find a way of referring to Jesus as a "Jewish god". No. A Klingdon god is a god worshipped by the Klingdons. As gods are mythical the myth can have them being from anywhere. If Roman mythology says Janus was from Thessalonia then that does not make Janus exist! Janus is a mythical (i.e. fictional) figure. He is only Thessalonian in Roman mythology, not in reality. Paul Beardsell 20:53, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

My answer is : The gods of romans were the greek Olympian gods, with the exception of Janus who was Thessalian (question: is there any god worshipped by romans who was not greek? I dont know...) . I have heard people who dont believe in Jesus refering to Jesus as "the jewish god (or prophet or anything)". I think an encyclopedia must be accurate, and its more accurate to say "Zeus was an olympian god worshipped by romans" rather than say "Zeus was roman god". The same is for Janus. He is a thessalian god worshipped by romans. The same is for Anubis. Anubis was not a greek god, although he was worshipped by greeks. He was an egyptian god, worshipped by greeks. Onassi 21:05, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not saying that much of what you say is not correct. But you have to acknowledge that I am correct too: A Gnomish god is a god worshipped by the Gnomish. A Gnomish god is not necessarily Gnomish himself. And, as gods do not exist, then to ascribe to them a real place of birth is a nonsense. Janus is a character from a Roman mythology - i.e. a fiction, a story - and in the myth he is from Thessalonia. But only in the myth. He is not Thessalonian, he is a character in a story. He is not even a Greek god as he was not worshipped by the Greeks. Nor did the Thessalonians worship him. A problem with the way you want the convention to work is that it would require editing many articles on many gods. Paul Beardsell 21:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes I understand what you mean and I acknowledge that you are also correct. Its is a matter of definition. A gnomish god is a god worshipped by the Gnomish people or a god that originates from the land of the gnomish? I dont know. Jupiter is the roman name for the greek god Dias-Zeus. Jupiter word is not a greek word. The same is for minerva, minerva is the roman equivalent for Athena. But you cannot call Jupiter (or Minerva) a roman god(goddess), and maybe it is wrong to name them greek gods also. If you want to be accurate, you have to name both Jupiter and Minerva the way both the greeks and the romans and the rest of the ancien world were calling them. They were olympians. And as long as Jupiter(Dias) and Minerva(Athena) are Olympians, then Janus is Thessalian. Onassi 22:02, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

You said :"And, as gods do not exist, then to ascribe to them a real place of birth is a nonsense. Janus is a character from a Roman mythology" I think some gods in ancien mythology may are not tottaly fictional characters, they may are rather equivalant to the contemporary heros or prophets or saints. Especially Janus was supposed to have wife, children, he was also king e.t.c so you cant say for sure that he was a tottaly fictional character. Imagine now a prophet or saint like Saint Peter. How do you call him? Peter is not worshipped by jew people, but he is jew saint, isnt he? Or what kind of saint Peter is? Is Peter considered to be a greek or a roman or a christian saint without beeing at the same time a jew saint too? It think you can name Peter a jew saint, and you can name Saint_Demetrius a greek saint. You cannot of course name Peter a saint of the jews. So janus can be called "a god of romans originated from thessaly", or "a thessalian origin god worshipped in rome only". But it is wrong to call Janus "a thessalian god" or "a roman god" without further explanation, because this may cause misunderstandings.Onassi 22:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

It is not disputed by anyone that St Peter did not exist. Also: St Peter, St Demetrius are Christian saints, and that would be much, much more common usage than Peter the Palestinian saint! Paul Beardsell 23:42, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

OK. What about the treatment I have given Janus in the articles now? To say he is a god of Roman mythology is undoubtedly true. I suggest we leave the "fact" that he is Thessalonian to the Janus article. What say you? Paul Beardsell 23:38, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Onassi 23:43, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Money and free market

I dont think it is propaganda. I think it is a fact that everybody is directly or indirectly coerced to use money coined by the central money maker authority as a medium of exchange in trades due to the taxes procedure. I personally never took any position whether this coercion is a good or a bad thing. But I dont like to hide behind my finger and claim that I am not coerced.  :P Onassi 22:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that is a little disingenuous of you. Paul Beardsell 23:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

You don't think that Gresham's Law is the reason some people are happy to spend fiat money? Paul Beardsell 23:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with Gresham's disctinction between bad and good money. Money is a token, an abstraction, an agreement within a community (or within a minority which holds the power to decide) to use a real or a virtual object as a medium of exchange. Metal money and fiat money have the same real value, they are both useless or bad if you like (their electrical properties notwithstanding). Both fiat and metal money become usefull either due to the coercion of the central money maker authority or because of the unexplicable faith people have on it. I am astonished by the (religious like) faith people had in gold at past times. In the case of gold maybe it wasnt faith, rather than the constant belief people had that after the collapse of the State and of the old money maker authority, the new powerfull money maker authority will choose again gold material as the more suitable to become the new medium of exchange. In the case of USA this want the case of course. Onassi 12:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

What authority do you cite to disagree with the nearly univerally accepted Gresham law? Interesting as your views are (and over a beer I am sure we could have an entertaining conversation and I might be persuaded to look afresh at some matters economic) the point is that this is an encyclopedia. You cannot edit articles here using only yourself as authority. Conventional views may not need substantive references but unorthodox ones do, otherwise there is no place for them here at Wikipedia. Even if you are an established economist you must quote your sources: Documentation of your own a priori musings cannot be allowed here. Wikipedia is not a place to publish original research. Paul Beardsell 11:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Gresham said: "Bad money drives good money out of circulation". And I think that: ""Worst money drives bad money out of circulation". Gresham refers to money backed by a useless gold or silver material or refers to money coined or minted by a central authority which coerces its use. This money, along with fiat money too, is a bad thing. Good money is money backed by something usefull, like hamburgers for example. Good money is not coined by a central money maker authority which holds the power to decide and coerce, good money is just a free agreement within a community to use something as a medium of exchange. This good money will finnaly drive bad money out of circulation. I recommend you to read History_of_money. Onassi 00:12, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

So, Wikipedia must reflect your original thought in preference to Gresham's? Paul Beardsell 02:56, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Most of people think what I think, and this can be seen in the history of the reversions of the free market article. Have a look, people reverting your POV are doing it "anonymously" by showing their IP addresses. This shows that they are separate persons and not sockpuppets of the same person hiding behind multiple nicknames. I think that you are trying to make wikipedia to reflect your original thoughts. Onassi 10:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, of course. Not true, not true and not true. Others, me included, are collaborating and compromising all the time. I am not the only one critical of your contributions, others have reverted you and cut your material for discussion on the Talk:Free market page, just as I have. Please just argue your POV on the Talk page before reverting again. You will notice that I am prepared to do so and I have been doing so. Paul Beardsell 21:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tax avoidance and tax evasion

Dear Editor: I'm sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to you. I haven't done much editing in the past few days. I see the small edit war that's been happening over my edit in the article. As of this writing, my edit is not in the article. It's gratifying to know that other editors liked my wording. However, if any of the other editors add it back, I'll try to take it out, with an explanation to them that it was my edit to begin with, and that I'm asking that it be left out since the point (about statutory assessment) is made later in the article, in the section on U.S. law. Maybe that will alleviate their concerns, and yours. Also, are you thinking about doing some more reorganization work on this article? Due to time constraints, I'm probably not going to deal with this article much more any time soon. Yours, Famspear 17:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alpha 2000

Alpha 2000 Posting here first as no desire to create an edit war.

Worldwide production rights (and all jigs tooling and so forth), were, according to even your own references, sold to Alpha Aviation. The fact marketing for Europe were retained by Apex, (quelle surprise), is irrelevant to the edited scentence about production.

You may or may not wish to record something about the recent purchase of Alpha. --Winstonwolfe

-

- um, editing boldly is good, editing recklessly on the other hand is a bit irritating - this article may not have been about get featured to begin with, but it seems to be progressing on a 3 steps backwards, 4 steps forward basis. I find it useful in editing is to assume something written by someone else shouldn't be altered unless I know it is wrong.Winstonwolfe 06:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

replied at his page. Paul Beardsell 08:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

- no dispute the article has now been improved - sorry I just got a bit frustrated wading through some edits and comments, which seemed to assume all facts in the article were inherently wrong, information obtained from press releases could not be used (there is no other source for information about this eunless you count news articles which are rewritten press releases), requested references not for the major parts of the article, but for side issues - it kind of felt like you were suggesting I had made up license production in Canada, and I was sitting thinking "WHY WOULD ANYONE MAKE IT UP - ENGAGE BRAIN OR AT LEAST DO A SIMPLE GOOGLE TO CHECK IT - again to be fair, next time I looked you had reverted that change) and I felt some of the explanations for edits were a little OTT - when it comes down to it, there weren't multiple factual errors - the only real changes of fact were to minor things about the designations for predescors which were altered frequently by the different manufacturers and appear to have been differently reported on different web sites. Anyway, nothing to get my knickers in a twist over - the article is now distinctly better - though the recent sale of Alpha to Australian interests might be sorth mentioning - speaking of which i did a breif note of the change of owenership of warbirds over Wanaka, but not a thorough revision - I see you've also done minor editing on that - you may want to dehype some of the breathlessness there at some point too.  :-) Winstonwolfe 07:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roni Lynn Deutch

Dear fellow editor: Your input could be valuable regarding the article Roni Lynn Deutch at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Roni_Lynn_Deutch

My personal view is that the article is pretty much an advertisement, even if the article wasn't put there by Ms. Deutch herself -- but you may have a different perspective. Yours, Famspear 20:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The History of South Africa in the Apartheid Era

I am the person who edited the article "The History of South Africa in the Apartheid Era" under the IP of 203.101.248.82. I am the author of the following book -- Louw, P.E. The Rise Fall and Legacy of Apartheid (Praeger). My edits corrected factual inaccuracies and removed emotive and "loaded" language. My edits were designed to make the article less biased. If you read my book you will see I do not have rose tinted glasses; neither do I support apartheid. P.E. Louw Eric Louw 12:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your vote please

Hi Paul - Please vote on the proposed title change of the 'South African farmer murders' page. The straw poll is here. Please also pass this message on to others you think would be interested. Thank you! Cheers, Jason Lionchow - Talk 12:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of ^{[citation needed]}

Hi Psb, I am sure you mean well with your message, and I appreciate it. But let me explain to you my rationale. You address 2 specific articles - I'll start with the first, the Gol accident. There the issue was/is the N number for the aircraft. If you follow my discussion in the commenter's Talk page, you will understand the issue better. Per Jimbo and WP policies/guidelines, we are not to use ^{[citation needed]} unnecessarily. In fact it is a kind of blight on WP, especially for high exposure articles (no FA would ever have it). It is at best a temporary crutch, and is ugly as heck. I do use it myself, fairly often in fact, when I see a fact that I think is fairly probable but unsourced. Then I may come in a couple of days later and remove the unsourced statement if it is still unsourced. In the case of the N number, although I think it's likely it is correct, it is also possible that it's wrong, as it's possible they were flying under a temporary different number if the requested or reserved one hadn't yet been approved. Since this is a high exposure dynamically unfolding article, I treat it as FA - no unsourced or poorly sourced facts, hence ^{[citation needed]} would be improper. Now to the the 182 article - please follow the Talk page discussion there too. In that case it is an issue of undue weight - thus a ^{[citation needed]} would not be appropriate. Thank you anyway for taking the time to communicate your thoughts - I really do appreciate it. Crum375 14:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Paul, regarding your objection to 'deletion'. I think I understand your concern that the act of deletion by itself reflects some intrinsic rudeness, but I think you are wrong. As I mentioned in the Talk page, deletion in WP is really just archiving. It is basically like we are in an office around a table, working to get some version of a document out the door, and I say: "here is my version, what do you think?". If anyone has a comment, they can either remove my version, modify it, or accept it, but since every action is archived, there is no harm done. Of course blind reversions and lack of a collaborative spirit are harmful and I am not advocating that at all, but removal by an editor of words s/he feels are unacceptable is just a normal collaborative step, IMO. Of course communication helps too, and that's what we do in the Talk pages and edit summaries. Hope this makes sense. Thanks, Crum375 20:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding deletion, again, the deletion is a relocation - it moves the words into the archive, where anyone can move them to anywhere else. All that's needed to be polite is an explanation, always in the edit summary, and sometimes in the Talk page. Regarding the N number issue: the question of N number is important, as WP would look bad if the pictures came out and our version turned out to be wrong (this being a dynamic unfolding event). So I expect extra care and accuracy in such a case, and just because I think it's probably correct, technically we are not allowed to use the A=B, B=C therefore A=C conjecture (called synthesis in WP), and in FA or dynamic high exposure cases I stick to the rule. You may have noticed, if you followed that article's progression, that I allowed it to stay in the crashbox with a '(unconfirmed)' note, then once the database record was found (in the 'reserved' part of the DB) and about the same time the photo showed up, we had confirmation. I think this is our mandate - to follow the WP:V and WP:OR rules, and be extra careful in FA or dynamic high exposure articles, as this is our main face to the world. Thanks, Crum375 21:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey Paul, calm down take a deep breath and remember WP:AGF. I do want to continue this discussion, if it's OK with you, because I can tell that you want WP to succeed, a do I, so we have a lot of common ground. As far as deletion: no, WP is not EB, in many ways. In EB (at least the old fashion tree killer kind) getting a version out the door is a herculean task and may take a year. Here at WP we 'get a version out' every microsecond or so (just check the recent edits section), so we are a dynamic creature. WP is constantly evolving. The way it evolves is by a constant back-and-forth, push-and-tug, mostly (fortunately) by well meaning and cooperative editors, who are continuously tweaking the articles into a moving-target optimal point. Virtually every second edit involves some deletion. It is not a big deal. Blind or blanket reversions are a big deal, and are subject to WP:3RR rules. But just normal back-and-forth tweaking are not. If one side ever feels the least bit slighted, assuming they are not trolls or vandals to start with, they have ample recourse - the Talk page, more reversions (less appealing choice but available) and even mediations of varying kinds. The bottom line is that the basic deletion of words is no big deal in WP. It is just one more type of edit, and part of the normal tweaking. If you feel offended by any edit, you have recourse. WP is not a hierarchy - it is owned by all of us, at least those who truly want to improve it, and I am sure you are one. Thanks, Crum375 22:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

And regarding the archiving on my part, if you check the timestamps and sizes (assuming you don't want to WP:AGF on face value), you'll discover that my Talk page just went over the recommended size limit, and that I started archiving before your last message. You'll also discover that I left your last message there (despite it being easier to just archive), so there would be continuity in case you wanted to continue, and of course left the link that you can click on to get to older messages. Boy, are you suspicious! BTW, as you may know, not everyone here archives online; many actually archive offline, which really does make things disappear, but not I. BTW, your own archive is getting kind of long... Crum375 22:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Paul, I am not patronizing you - please forgive me if my trying to be WP:CIVIL sounds like patronizing. I am trying my best to explain that deletion as part of an edit (as opposed to admin delete) is not a loss in any way. You can always revert back or copy/paste or whatever you decide to do. All it is, is one more edit in the normal WP tweaking cycle. And like any edit, you can either agree or disagree, with many recourses. We are all on the same level, and we are all trying our best to improve WP, each from our own perspective - no one is better than anyone else, although we do strive to achieve consensus. Hopefully this helps. Crum375 23:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Psb, I am sorry if my 'deletion' offended you. I had no intention to offend you nor anyone else. To me deletion (in WP) is 'relocation'. I am aware that you don't see it that way. As I noted in the 182 Talk page I have no problem with relocation of the top gear episode trivia into the Talk page, instead of the 'natural' relocation into the History section. I am sure you realize that both are equally accessible for future use, and the Talk page will eventually get archived (but its history will remain accessible too). I hope we can collaborate in the future productively and that we both continue to assume good faith. Thanks, Crum375 20:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The WP guidelines on "trivia" state that trivia should not ordinarily be deleted from an article, but if good reason is found for doing so, it should rather than neing deleted, it should be moved to the article's Talk page. Whatever "deletion" is to Crum, it is something else to everyone else and to the WP guidelines. That deleted material can be found in the archives does not mean it has not been deleted from the Wikipedia everyone sees. I think the use of the words "natural" and "relocation", above, are therefore incorrect, at best, or disingenuous otherwise. Paul Beardsell 22:50, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AGF

Hi Psb777, I'm sorry you feel I am not worthy of WP:AGF. I hope that over time, especially if we happen to work together on some article in the future, you'll change you mind. As for me, I'll continue to AGF on your part. Crum375 22:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The other half of these comments are to be found on Crum's user Talk page and its archives. This is the most recent of a whole series of comments by Crum where he implies I am not assuming good faith. This type of unsupported accusation is dealt with specifically at WP:AGF: Accusing someone of not assuming good faith is itself an instance of not assuming good faith. Paul Beardsell 22:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Paul, I will ignore the above comments for now, while continuing to AGF. As to the 182 article, I think it makes more practical sense for you to relocate any specific text you want from the history of the article into its Talk page. There you can also frame it with your relevant comments. Crum375 22:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Power Prawn goes on the offensive

It would seem everyone disagrees with everything you say. You are an open systems consultant, not a polymath, so stop starting edit wars on things you don't understand. Power prawn 11:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, who are you? I am not hiding under a cloak of anonymity, making personal attacks. I have not crossed swords with you before, as far as I know. Of course, if you are prepared to make a specific criticism then perhaps we can see if your comment is fair. That would put me in a position where it would be possible to defend myself. Or to admit to fault. Put up or shut up. Paul Beardsell 12:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] License tagging for Image:CALUMO logo.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:CALUMO logo.jpg. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

• Wikipedia:Image use policy
• Wikipedia:Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 00:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CALUMO

Paul - I want to resolve the issue about adding CALUMO redlink to the list of commercial OLAP products. There is still no article about this company on Wikipedia, and it seems to be very minor product - I am in the OLAP industry since its inception in 1993, and I never heard about this product before. Going to their Web site it isn't even clear that they have product. Perhaps it is best if we remove this link until there is a credible article on Wikipedia which provides information about this product. What do you think ? Wikiolap 04:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, if it is decided that CALUMO is not notable enough to have article in Wikipedia - then it should not be listed inside OLAP article either. I don't have opinion about whether or not CALUMO should have its article - as I said before, I have never heard about this product before, so I really don't know. I'll wait until you finish your dicussion with Xoloz, and if CALUMO won't be revived after that - I think we should remove it from OLAP page as well. Wikiolap 05:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CSD G11

Hi,

Wikipedia's executive director, User:Brad Patrick, has introduced a new criterion for speedy deletion, G11, designed to combat the spamming of the site. When I encounter an article on a commercial product that makes no claim to notability for that product, whose only source is the company website, I speedy delete it. No argument offered by you makes any difference because the low quality of the article speaks for itself. The large backlog at CSD means that I must act expeditiously; without impugning your good-faith, I simply cannot offer explanations to every writer of spam; I must wait for them to come to me, as you have. I'm afraid my explanation is rather simple and direct, but the creation of CSD G11 was intended to make the removal of spam simple and direct.

If you wish to rewrite the article (and have it survive), it would need more reliable sources, several non-advertorial news stories explaining the product's importance. If you find other comparable products with poor articles not deleted, you are free to tag them for CSD: the fact that every bad article has not yet been deleted is not reason to keep the bad articles that are brought to admin attention. Best wishes, Xoloz 14:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black box

Hi. I cleaned up the Black box/Black box (disambiguation) affair, basically reverting it back to the state before you moved it. I have no particular preference whether "black box as a system" should be the primary topic (personally, I think yes, but the article isn't very thorough), but the outcome of your move wasn't acceptable: one way or another, Black box should never be a redirect. If you wish to pursue the matter, please repost at WP:RM. Regards, Duja 07:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Koevoet

I just wanted to make the sentence as comprehensive as possible (referring to the last change in the intro), but I wouldn't have any objection to removing the "commie backed" bit. That's the beauty of the iterative, collaborative effort that is wikipedia, but let's discuss it further on the Talk page where I see you have created a thread for this intro and the rest of the article. --Deon Steyn 10:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I only now saw that you added a section on CW to my Talk page too. Forget about me, any reader reading statements with weasel words like "some say", or "it has been said" etc. wouldn't start doubting the content. I started off with one tag right at the top of the article, but another editor removed it without fixing all of the problem areas so I helped them out by tagging the specific areas which they have not resolved with references etc. I'm just interested in keep articles neutral and up to a nice level that is verifiable etc. I am currently adding some references and sources to Koevoet. Please don't think I am some apartheid era dinosaur trying to live in the past, I never served in any military and only graduated around 94'. One could argue that better sources and references actually combat these right wing types don't you think? --Deon Steyn 10:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

"right wingers from the past"... yes, they are alive and well... where were you when I had to struggle with the Volkstaat article... or even 2010 FIFA World Cup :-) It is a pity most of these topics are so polarized with seemingly little room for middle ground which is why I sometimes have to withdraw into wikipedia guidelines and policies, but I guess that is all we have sometimes. --Deon Steyn 11:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I see you found links listing the accusations of atrocities. Can you massage them into appearing as footnote type thingamabobs at the end of that intro sentence. I have just corrected mine to be in a similar style, you can take it as an example (if you need it) or check out Wikipedia:Citing sources/example style which I constantly have to consult. --Deon Steyn 11:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tax havens edit

I note your edit on tax havens, but unless you have really strong views, I would suggest reverting it to reinclude the relevant sentence. The term "tax haven" is not a comment a nation's tax laws simplicter, but a broader criticism on the probity of financial structuring within a country. I think that the comments made by a director of Tax Justice Network in an interview with the BBC summarising that evidence showing that the UK was as bad as any traditional tax haven in relation to these points is information that can very reasonably be included, and follows on logically from the earlier paragraphs (esp Incentives for the tax haven relating to money laundering in the article. Legis 10:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Will monitor your talk page in case you want to reply. Legis 10:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Please let's keep the discussion in the most relevant place so that others can contribute if they wish. See Talk:Tax_haven#Money_laundering. Paul Beardsell 14:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lighter than air

Hi, your recent edit war with Anthony717 is only going to cause both of you trouble. Better to take it to the talk page and work out a consensus there. Personally I didn't care for his edits, but simply reverting twice isn't going to work for the article, it needs to be talked through for consensus. Jonathan888 (talk) 23:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please stop removing assessment templates

Removing these from multiple articles unilaterally could be considered vandalism. The assessments are a part of a bigger project, and the Aviation project involves a lot of people. If you don't agree with the need for the assessment templates, at least please respect others that do. Akradecki 02:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have not done that. I have not removed assessment templates from multiple articles. What I have done is reverted assessments which are not (as requested by the text in the templates themselves) accompanied by reasoning and suggestions for improvements. Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#article_assessments Paul Beardsell 03:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment reply

While it is certainly nice if the assessor does so, a polite request on h(is|er) talk page would probably be a better method to request this then reversion. The assessor is not required to leave comments, only requested to do so. Seraphimblade 03:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It's generally been done that review templates and the like are unsigned, though of course the reviewer's name remains in the edit history. If you'd like to change that, you certainly may wish to make that suggestion! A good place to start discussion would be the village pump section.

As to reviews, in my opinion it's nice but not mandatory if the reviewer leaves some feedback. If I would like more detail, I contact the reviewer, and almost always get it-but they're not mandated to provide detail. An obviously-bad review (such as a "Stub" classification on a well-established article) could easily be reversed by consensus, but in practice I've never once seen that happen. However, it is important to assume good faith on the part of reviewers-there is quite a backlog of articles to be reviewed, and anyone who helps with that is doing very well. I hope that in the future you'll choose to encourage their efforts rather than attempt to undo them over such a disagreement. If you'd like detailed article feedback, I recommend the peer review process. Seraphimblade 04:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC) Seraphimblade 04:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)