Wikipedia talk:Product, process, policy
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[edit] History
The history of this page seems odd. It begins as a page in full... was it copied from somewhere? Whats the deal - I really doubt Radiant made the first edit as his own work all at once. Fresheneesz 21:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- And yet I did. That should tell you something. (Radiant) 17:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] People - the 1st P
I think there is another P, which is even more important to Wikipedia than product, process and policy - and that is people. We should always strive to remember that our fellow editors are people, and they are all entitled to be treated with courtesy, politeness and respect at all times. And that includes anonymous contributors, newbies, POV pushers, spammers, vandals and sockpuppets. Even where it is necessary to reprimand or apply sanctions to another editor, we should always do this in a polite way. WP:CIVIL says a lot more about this. I think we should extend the 3Ps essay to a 4Ps essay - People, product, process, policy. Views ? Gandalf61 10:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- People are important because they produce product. So there's no way they could they be more important than the product. I think people are covered in "process"- the process involves people collaborating to product the encyclopedia. Maybe this says it best, from WP:NOT: "Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia and, as a means to that end, an online community of people interested in building a high-quality encyclopedia in a spirit of mutual respect.". Friday (talk) 15:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I strongly disagree. People are important just because they are people, not because they produce some product. The logical conclusion of your argument is that it is alright to be rude and abusive to another editor as long as you can show that Wikipedia is somehow being improved by that abuse, because the good of the "product" outweighs any other considerations. Is that really what you believe ? Gandalf61 17:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- No, that's not what I'm saying. Rubbing people the wrong way creates strife and drama, which hurts the project in the form of lost time and alienated editors. I've made this exact point many times to folks who caused all manner of uproar while doing what they insisted was right. I was making a statement about priorities- saying that the encyclopedia is more important than any individual editor does not mean I'm saying individual editors are unimportant. Without editors there'd be no project, so they're very clearly important. Friday (talk) 17:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- I just realized where some of the disagreement may come from- in real life yes, people are obviously more important than Wikipedia or any other encyclopedia. Given the choice between saving a drowning baby and making an edit, I would assume nearly all of us give priority to people. However, here on Wikipedia, as opposed to "real life", the project is most important. Friday (talk) 18:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- Real life trumps the Wikipedian virtual reality universe at many points that are acknowledged within Wikipedia including law (copyright, trademark, libel, privacy of nonpublic persons, mediawiki foundation's educational charter ruling out noneducational endevors, real life harrassment), social (real life get togethers), realities of life (conflict of interest, time/space condiderations), and the point of it all (WP:IAR can be used when "encyclopedia" doesn't quite cover an important good that we can serve concerning current events). WAS 4.250 00:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree. People are important just because they are people, not because they produce some product. The logical conclusion of your argument is that it is alright to be rude and abusive to another editor as long as you can show that Wikipedia is somehow being improved by that abuse, because the good of the "product" outweighs any other considerations. Is that really what you believe ? Gandalf61 17:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- While it's definitely true that Wikipedia wouldn't be here without the people that write it, it's simply not true that to the encyclopedia, people are more important than product. For instance, if some editor says "change this article so-and-so or else I'll go cry in the corner and leave the project", we don't comply to that argument, because the product is more important. (Radiant) 10:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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- If some editor says ""change this article so-and-so or else I'll go cry in the corner and leave the project", we could say "I am sorry you feel that way - is there anything we can do to help you feel that you are making a valued contribution ?" or we could say "Goodbye - the product is better off without you anyway". I am arguing for the former approach. This essay seems to promote the latter approach. In particular, it says "do whatever you like as long as it improves the encyclopedia" - which could be taken as a charter for all sorts of intolerant and agressive behaviours. Gandalf61 11:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not therapy WAS 4.250 23:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- If some editor says ""change this article so-and-so or else I'll go cry in the corner and leave the project", we could say "I am sorry you feel that way - is there anything we can do to help you feel that you are making a valued contribution ?" or we could say "Goodbye - the product is better off without you anyway". I am arguing for the former approach. This essay seems to promote the latter approach. In particular, it says "do whatever you like as long as it improves the encyclopedia" - which could be taken as a charter for all sorts of intolerant and agressive behaviours. Gandalf61 11:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
