Talk:Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester
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Arrigo, please do not move this page again without taking a vote. Deb 18:27, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Deb, there was the vote. Actually, you have made moves with less. Please read the history. There was the standard request for the move, and it was kept for a long time. If someone wants to make another vote, please be my guests. However, the result of the conducted one favors the move. Arrigo 19:42, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
- I've checked the history, thanks. I see no record of the requested move in the history of Wikipedia:Requested moves, nor can I find any record of a vote on this page or anywhere else. Perhaps you could refer us to the relevant paragraphs. Deb 21:30, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The request was here from 11 July: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Princess_Alice%2C_Duchess_of_Gloucester&oldid=18590681
And at the same time, for approximately a week at RM. Edit history there does not have those days left afaik. Opinions given are still here on this page. Only some unsigned, IP-written opposing opinion came, its weight is close to zero. Arrigo 23:10, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
- Edit history of the RM page does still exist for the dates you mentioned, and this article does not appear on it. Clearly there was no vote and no consensus for a move. Deb 17:26, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Her heading does not need the word princess. Arrigo 10:06, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Whats your justification for this? That was her title
Calling her "Alice, Duchess of Gloucester" is just mixing her maiden title and marriage one - just use one or the other!
- Arrigo please stop moving pages if the naming is controversial, in any case. Also do not remove renaming tags if the voting has not been clear and over. Please abide by Wikipedia rules and Wikiquette. Gryffindor
14:28, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] old misc
She should be under her maiden name/style since she was nonreigning female royalty (Alphaboi867 00:34, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC))
- Err, whut? We put people under their most common name if in doubt, and Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester is significantly more common a name than Lady Alice Christabel Montagu-Douglas-Scott for her to be known by. James F. (talk) 00:43, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- There is no consistency for this, Diana is Diana, Princess of Wales not Lady Diana Spencer. Since she only died about six months ago, I think her title of Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester is appropiate. Astrotrain 21:16, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I think so too - who's going to automatically think "AH! It was Lady Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott that was a member of the royal family" - she should be called Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester
- agreed! but what´s going with Elisabeth the Queen Mum? i mean Lady Montagu something something, say what...? Antares911 09:18, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
why not have a dual title for her - "Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, Queen Consort of the United Kingdom"
Her proper place would be Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. There is no need to put "Princess" into the heading - particularly as it was not her pre-marital title. As wife and widow of a peer, a duke, she does not need revert to maiden name. 217.140.193.123 09:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
No it wasn't her pre-marital title but it WAS her title so she should be called that. Bit hazy as to WHY she was called a Princess but the fact is she was so it should stay like that.
[edit] Title of Princess Alice
Why was she a princess? If she was born a Lady and became a Duchess on marriage, where does the title of Princess come into it? Surely she'd be ""Princess Henry"?? I thought Princess (christian name) was reserved only for daughters of the sovereign?
This has been a frequent topic of discussion on the usenet newsgroup alt.talk.royalty over the years. It is also illustrative of the "flexibility" ( or arbitariness) in the use of the title prince or princess since George V's 30 November 1917 Letters Patent. Basically, in the U.K., the use of the princely title and the style Royal Highness by members of the Royal Family is entirely at the will of the Sovereign. After the death of The Duke of Gloucester in 1974, his widow was briefly styled "Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester" because the new duke was married. However, the former duchess asked the Queen's permission to be styled "Her Royal Highness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester." The Queen agreed and a brief announcement to that effect appeared in the Court Circular section of the Times. No Letter Patent or Royal Warrant were issued. There are three possible rationales for this request. First, the widowed duchess wanted to avoid using "dowager duchess" or "Princess Henry" in her title (both of which sound old-fashioned). Second, the alternative style for widows of peers (e.g., Alice, Duchess of Gloucester) is identical to the style for divorced wives of peers. Third, she wanted to follow the example of her late sister-in-law, Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, who adopted that style just before the wedding of her elder son Prince Edward, Duke of Kent. However, Marina was a princess of Greece and Denmark in her own right. She became a British duchess and Royal Highness through marriage in 1934. Marina asked the Queen for permission to resume using her Greek title in 1961. User:Jeff (talk) 20:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
However, that is not a sufficient reason to use "Princess" as part of the heading of this article. We do not use "Lady whatever, Peeress of something" either. 217.140.193.123 11:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I was responding the previous query regarding Prince Alice's style and title during her widowhood. I was not responding to the thread regarding the proper title of this Wikipedia article. User:Jeff (talk) 10:52, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The Princess Henry?
How exactly was Alice a princess? Is it because she was a princess immediately after marriage, being "HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester?" or was she never a princess? Was she actually a Princess or did she just STYLE herself a princess? Was she legally titled a princess (but being "Princess Henry") and just styled Princess Alice to feminise it? or was she legally Princess Alice?
- She was technically Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester, etc. When her husband died and her son acceeded to the dukedom, she was The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. She was allowed to title herself as Princess Alice as a courtesty from her neice, Queen Elizabeth II. Prsgoddess187 01:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
But did that mean she WAS Princess Alice or just styled that way? What does "courtesy from the queen mean"? Was she always the Princess Henry - for example, would this have been on legal documents?
- No, she was not Princess Alice as Princess Margaret was Princess Margaret, she was not a Princess of the blood royal. When she married Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, she became Princess Henry, although that title was never used. A "courtesy by the queen" means that Letters Patent were not issued to let Alice be styled as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, that the Queen let her aunt do this as a favor. Alice wanted to follow the way her sister in law (Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent) was styled, but Marina was a Princess of Greece and Denmark before her marriage, so she had permission to use her pre-marital title with her peerage title. Prsgoddess187 12:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
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- It may sound mad, but if Alice was "technically" "Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester" wouldn't that make, TECHNICALLY, the Duchess of Windsor Princess Edward, Duchess of Windsor? I'm not suggesting we change anything in her article, but just wanted to point that out to determine if anyone knows if, in addition to being denied the HRH, she also was legally denied that Princess Edward designation.Mowens35 21:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Move?
I've changed the opening to Lady Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott since that is what's happened to Diana, Princess of Wales, please let opinion be known on this and feel free to debate and change back if public vote decides.
