Talk:Primerica Financial Services

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[edit] Historical Facts about Primerica

An Associate with Primerica can be viewed as participating in a self-improvement program with a heck of a compensation package in the back end. Some books that associates are encouraged to read are: "Think Like a Winner" by Dr. Walter Staples, "Success is not an Accident" by Tommy Newberry, "Beyond Positive Thinking" by Robert Anthony, "The Magic of Thinking Big" by David Schwartz, "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill, and "Success is a Journey" by John Maxwell. One other book that is imperative to the structure of Primerica is "The Cash Flow Quadrant" by Robert Kiyosaki.

The most recent book that was brought to the attention of the Associates within Primerica was, "How to Raise Your Own Salary" by Napoleon Hill. This particular book is where Napoleon Hill interviews Andrew Carnegie in the early 1950's about the famous success formula. This book was out of print for years and was recently brought back into print. In this book, Andrew Carnegie explains the four pillars of Americanism and in fact explains what Americanism is.

In addition, a more recent book was written by the founder of A.L. Williams, now known as Primerica. The book called "Coach" by Art Williams, describes in detail the history of Primerica and what the company is based on.

A challenge is set forth to all who have read this message, a dare to take the time and read these books written by the most influential writers, speakers and business men of all times.

[edit] A Dubious History

Primerica has a dubious history and in the interests of equitable coverage should be included in any article on it. As part of that heritage, it should be noted in this article that Primerica was prohibited from practicing


I would also like to state that the previous revision's assertation that the opinions of former agents can be "- which are substantial- should not be brushed aside but rather brought to the light, since neutrality demands that nothing hides its bad side. I am not saying that Primerica cannot provide a legitimate business- some people have managed to succeed, and I congratulate them. However, for a Wikipedia article to denounce the accusations of many as unimportant stands in the way of everything that Wikipedia is about, since neutrality isn't about hiding anything.-RomeW

HUH? I took my test and got licensced immediately after I finished my classes. 4 days after, in fact. What's your company's turnover rate? Well, a better comparison would be the industry or national average overall. My point still stands. People quit alot of things.Thegzeus 19:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
No, the way it's phrased now is not very good. But if I understand it, the $199 goes to cover Primerica's costs in providing a state-mandated licensing course, whatever that state's requirements are -- the teachers, the books, the tapes, etc.
And no, it will take some time to reach an NPOV presentation on this, since so many people feel strongly about it. Primerica's definitely not for everyone; there is a high attrition rate, and it's a lot more work than most people expect to make a decent living at it -- definitely not a get-rich-quick scheme. The trick is in presenting the company's weaknesses without demonizing it all as "a big scam". I've had family members involved in the company for almost ten years, and they are doing very well without any sort of underhandedness, so I know that it's possible -- and I do believe that Primerica's a legitimate company with no conspiracy to exploit or defraud anyone. But as you say, I've also seen upwards of 90% of the people they recruit disappear from the business within a few months, and this article should not try to ignore the reasons they criticize the company. Nor should it ignore that the very fact that each hierarchy has a certain independence means that there ARE bad agents out there whose actions reflect very poorly on the company. Let's just try to work constructively towards an honest NPOV view -- attributing views properly, and not turning the article into an attack on or defense of the company. — Catherine\talk 17:12, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
That is true- it's not very neutral. Upon reading what we have now, I think that the version we have now is the best we have- it keeps the bad areas but neutralizes them. I'm still a little skeptical of the $199 fee though- I mean, if it really were based on training fees from the US states and Canadian provinces it wouldn't be uniform, it would vary (since every state has different costs associated with this kind of procedure. Perhaps if the statement also read, "though this claim is disputed by former agents" it would be even more satisfactory.
I'd also like to state that I don't believe Primerica are fraud artists, because legally they do not fruad people. Everything they do is legal- they just use any loophole they can find to "hide" the bad aspects. For example, about "duping" people into the $199 fee: they'll bring it up in the presentation (in my case, it was presented as a "course" they offer and is a lot less expensive than at a college, in my case Humber was used), explain it a little (throwing in the bit about the scholarships, which was what drove me out of the company in the end because it seemed like I couldn't get a dime before I finished the course, when I was made to believe that I could do some "training sessions" in front of families that would qualify me) and then get on about how great the company is. You don't remember the presenter saying anything about it (and I had to listen carefully the second time around to catch that as soon as I got hired I'd pay the fee), but, if you try to say in a court of law that "you were not made aware of it," they can turn around and say that they did say something, because they actually did- they just presented it in a way that made you forget about it. I personally call it a "legal scam", because it's advertized as a potential way to make lots of money but in reality very few make that money.-RomeW
The 199 retainer is the same everywhere to simplify paperwork for everyone. Think of the amount of increased paperwork for it to be differnt in every state. Furthermore, look at the cost of being liscenced by doing it yourself. It's almost always higher than $199. It's approximately $700 in MN. That includes classes(required by law), books(part of the class), and the liscence itself(well over $100 alone), and the exam($60). The first failed exam is paid for as well.
"Legal scam?" That implies that Primerica makes money off of failed recruits. If htey fail, how did the company make money? If they quit in 4 months they get the liscencing portion of the retainer back! $40 most likely doesn't cover the full cost of the background check for many areas and recruits. They just LOST money. The company makes money when a sale is made. Salesment don't make money if a sale isn't made. If someone is in the sale of financial product in any prokerage agency system the manager doesn't make money off a recruit if the recruit doesn't make a sale.
Did you READ the IBA? Personally I read all legal documents before signing them, especially if they involve a transfer of money.
How many appointments did you run before you quit? I'm just trying to qualify these statements. You're also generalising the entire company based on one office. Ever been to a bad McDonalds?
What you've described is NOTHING like what I experienced, other than training appointments are needed. Guess what? I got paid when they were done.Thegzeus 19:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
In Oklahoma, where I was licenced, the $199 fee was refunded beyond full. I was refunded $200, a dollar extra. This amount was spoken of during the business meeting, it was told to everyone that when they completed six (6) training or qualifying appointments, they would receive $200 total ($100 per three [3] meetings). And yes, they presented the fact that they are not offering the opportunity as a "get rich quick scheme." It was told well in advance that is was to be thought of as a buisness ownership position in which you were 1) both making money by offering debt elimination for families; and 2) recruiting to build you're team to help more people than you could by yourself. And from personal recruits quitting, every single one of them quit telling me that they didn't think they could continue earning money by personally finding their clients; they just disliked the idea of not having customers come to them, they had to find them. thebigcomfycouch61 14:40, 10 July 2006
each office is managed independently with PFS maintaining supervisory control for compliance purposes. I work part-time helping families and believe I have made a significant improvement in the lives of several people. I left a 13 year career in the legal industry to spend more time with my children. This business allows me to make a signficantly better income than saying "Welcome to Walmart". I have NEVER attempted to force someone into a service they did not need or was against his/her personal philosophies, and I am very selective about those whom I even mention this opportunity to, because it takes a special person to make it and frankly, it's a waste of my time to chase people around. I have an honest, open relationship with my clients and as a result, I'm as successful as I need to be at this time in my life. I like to learn and have invested not just money, but hundreds of hours of my valuable time learning every aspect of financial services, our mission, our services, our products, and our competitors services/products. This business is not for everyone. You have to want it and you have to be willing to work for it. Can you become wealthy? Personally, I am not wealthy - I don't work enough to be! But several people have and I applaud them for their hard work and desire to be leaders. While in the legal industry, I saw firsthand the incredulous amount of illegal acts by representatives of a lot of companies. It's just like at the office - you have hard workers and you have people who try to get the paycheck without the work. The larger the company, the more there usually are. The company, and the largest majority of people associated with this company, are just trying to make a living AND be able to sleep well at night. There are a lot of quitters in life, because it's easier to quit and blame someone (or something) else for your failure than to admit you weren't willing to pay the price for success - and not just in this business - in life!! BTW - if you do decide, after submitting an IBA, that you can't cut it, you have 6 months to get your licensing application fee back, less a $40 administrative fee. PFS's licensing department is non-profit. They really don't make a dime on you! --Shieldspfs 19:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Purported cult

This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, -Willmcw 10:58, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Primerica
Primerica is a large financial services company, which is a member of Citigroup, and is considered a cult by some of its opponents. According to the testimonies of victims, Primerica seeks converts by inviting friends and relatives of its employees, some of which purchase insurance and some join part-time or full-time as recruiters deriving profits from new people, thus employing a company.
Primerica attracted criticism due to what some describe as dubious practices, unscrupulousness and agressiveness in client relationships. During the regular meetings, recruiters shout "yes" and demonstrate other distinctive qualities of a cult.
References:

17:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)17:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)~

In general,Primerica suffers from some of the same issues as other MLM businesses. I should clarify that MLM does not mean scam, it's simply an entirely voluntary hierarchy system based on amount of members recruited/business done (either through volume or dollar amount). Most of these issues have to do with the impossible difficulty of controlling such a large representative base. One greedy rep, and now people get screwed. The top of the hierarchy's message to reps is always the same: be honest and help people. Some members take the traditional approach to high pressure insurance sales, which turns away potential reps and clients. Every MLM suffers from some organizations that participate in unethical practices. However, the quality of services offered through Primerica are undoubtedly high and definitely in demand for any willing and able rep to build a lasting and profitable business with.

The products/services offered and compensation provided to reps are what differenciates PFS from other MLM systems. There is a real demand for what Primerica offers to middle class families, not overpriced groceries. The system also does not suffer from hundreds of dollars in investment per month to be successful. The licenses gained are legitimate, the need is legitimate, and the vast majority of reps follow the rules and guidelines set by the company.

On the subject of the one time $199 fee, this fee was talked about towards the end of the Overview, and explained thoroughly by the RVP. The fee is broken down into two parts:

1.)$40, non refundable. Goes towards federal and state background checks. No Felons, please.

2.)$159, refundable. This is for the prelicensing courses provided by the company. The cost of the course is over $500. The $159 is the amount that the rep puts towards that amount. The company pays the rest. If a rep does not get licensed in 120 days, the fee will be refunded and the rep will no longer exist with the company.

In ending, I have not heard any "Amens" or mention of "God" in correlation with the company or any of its members. Generalizing the business as a cult is simply irresponsible and ignorant.


I was at a meeting today and there were several employees placed as foils at the meeting who would shout out agreement whenever the recruiter said something, and supply facts when he called for them. It felt very much like a cult to me. Especially with all of the videos of Ferraris and big houses and promises of a better life. Markleci

Were the things that the 'recruiter' said true? If so, I don't see why one WOULDN'T agree. How does 'promise' of a better life and REAL rich people driving their ACTUAL CARS=cult? If anything you make it sound like one of many 'get rich quick' plans ala infomercials. I'm honestly dumbfounded by your response to it. i'm guessing they played the video from the Success from Home magazine(July 2005 the entire issue was dedicated to Primerica). John Adison speaks of how hard it is to succeed with Primerica in the video. No promises are made in an opportunity meeting. Furthermore 'placed' and 'foils' implied they were secretive about the fact that they were reps(ask them before them meeting, they'll tell you.). It's common, in fact almost REQUIRED for reps to attend the meetings. Especially if they have guests. Was the person who invited you there? of course they were, or at the least their upline. 'Flis' itself implies that there were people speaking agaist the things they said. Again, I find your response odd and most likely that of osmeone LOOKING for a reason to dislike the company. This IS verifiable information. I'm at almost every meeting our office has. I speak from experience. I can quote people here if you like. I'd like more specific information so I can make a more detailed response to what you're saying. --Thegzeus 16:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Even if what the recruiter was saying was true, having employees pretend to be members of the audience is dishonest and highly questionable. If the "REAL rich people driving their ACTUAL CARS" were highly atypical results then that is not an honest promise, and does have some of the earmarkings of a cult. The meetings themselves do sound like get rich quick plans, even if the people running them are careful to mention "all of the hard work" as an aside. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.218.86.204 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe that so many people are arguing about the $199. i mean come on people the average smoker spends $150-$200 a month to KILL THEIRSELVES. this is only a one time deal, and yes, most of it does get refunded. but you have the ability to make that and much more before you are even done with the state mandated tests that qualify you for the reimbursement. and no it's actually quite the opposite of a get rich quick scheme. it is very hard grueling work (not physically) but you have to work on yourself. i have been involved with the company for about a year now and i can honestly say that it has changed my life. my marriage is better, i feel more self confident, and most of all i see all the negativty in the world and want to make a difference. and whoever wrote about primerica having the same troubles as any other MLM company is completely false. how do you think real estate works? if you recruit and train someone you make a percentage of their efforts. am i wrong? primerica is the only company in the world that actually gives anyone a chance (besides convicted felons and anyone with out a GED or equivalent) what other company completely disregards past mistakes. or looks at the school you didn't go to, or the race you're not, the sex you're not, how pretty you're not, and gives you a chance. i think smart people in general are turned off by our company for the sole reason that they have to start from the bottom. i mean why not let mommy and daddy send you to an ivy leauge school,or go into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to go to an ivy leauge and not expect to have an easy high paying job at the end. these people don't even enter the real world until they are in their mid to late 20's. but they're who we're supposed to listen to? this business isn't for the fainthearted. if you had a chance to work hard and build a business in 5 to 10 years that would take care of your family for generations would you even worry about the $199 or anything else for that matter. i think people get too caught up in this "my company will take care of me" idealism and lack to take complete control of their lives.

[edit] Similar State Fees

RomeW: You are right in that each state has different fees for getting licensed, and I'm writing this to clarify why the company consistently asks only $199. What the company does is it subsidises (SP) the cost of training and licensing but makes it easier for it's agents by asking for the same fee in submitting an independant business application. The license, facility, materials and instructor generaly costs more than $199.00, so the company makes up the gap.

As an example it may cost (and these are examples don't take them as the actual expense) $450 for the company to license a person in California, $250 in Kansas and $220 in Maine, but the company only asks $199.

The reason they do that is to make it easier on their field reps. I live in Kansas City, 2 miles from the state line. I spend time in both states. If I did have someone interested in a career how confusing would it be to say licening is $199 in KS but $250 in MO? What if we lived in a tri-state area?

The office I'm licensed to work out of is one of the best in the company at licensing people which is 30%. In fact the company has asked the owner of our office to develop material on how we have such a hight recruit to code ration, because some offices have a recruit to code ration less than 1%.

As for people quitting, the company ratio's are about the same as those of most colleges. Simply look at how many students start as freshmen and compare that to how many graduate with a bachelors, then masters, then PHD's. Any individuals success is based on their effort, and people who don't work or can't be disciplined quit. Assuming everyone would be successful is as realistic as expecting everyone who goes to college to come out with a PHD. (It seems that this paragraph is implying that one is only successful if he or she recieves a Ph.D, I recommend rewording this. Many students are quite successful with only an associates or batchelor's degree. Further, regarding the majority of undergraduate institutions: Most schools that only graduated one to thirty percent of its enrolled students would probably be investigated and would then most likely have its accreditation suspended or even revoked)


Actually, it's SAYING that sucess(IE, successfully completing the schooling needed to recieve a PHD) takes alot of time and hard work. I got that the first time I read it, and double checked the language used to make sure. --Thegzeus 16:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corporate Links

It is redundant to link all 8 corporate sites in this article. Each of those links are linked directly from the primary corporate site. Please do not add them in again Anazgnos 20:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

According to the policies and guidelines and a NPOV guidelines, inclusion of the Official corporate sites is permissable. Linking all corporate sites is not redundant. They do not redirect to the primary site, and their focus is for products and/or services Primerica offers. Please do not delete them again. A1794 08:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsigned Comments innapropriately posted in main article

(relocated from main article:" "To use a word like "scheme" implies wrong doing of some sort. The disclaimer sized sentence at the end of the paragraph is not enough to contradict the inflamatory language in the beginning of the paragraph.

Also, whose criticisms of Primerica are these? Non biased? Please rethink. Thank You."

I don't feel "scheme" was overly negative or inflammatory in context but I have nevertheless removed it.

I will work on threading references to existing articles containing the criticisms listed. I believe this is a fair and impartial summary or the criticisms that are commonly levied against the company. If you wish to add a balancing perspective at this point the article could certainly use some more information on what services or products Primerica alleges to offer, which I do not claim to be knowledgeable enough to provide. The services should be described impartially and not hawked or cloaked in rhetoric, as appeared in previous revisions. Anazgnos 21:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms

These criticisms exist, and are being reported on fairly and neutrally. This portion of the article should not be treated as an opportunity to defend the company or discredit criticisms as they are stated. If needed, a seperate paragraph or section regarding responses to criticisms may be entered. 70.183.63.108 21:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Gnarlyocelot - if you're going to edit the article please be sure to copy the code and not just the text...you removed all the citations and external links in the criticism section...which I'm certain was unintentional. I don't really object to the bulk of your changes, but you need to avoid the appearance of the whole "here's the criticism...and here's why it's bullshit" defensive tone. Anazgnos 19:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
OK...at this point I don't think there's anything to do but seperate "criticism" into a seperate section from "defense against criticism", if that's what you guys insist on doing. Constant qualifiers and "here's why it's not MLM" (etc.) is overly defensive and non-neutral in the context of a basic list of fully referenced criticisms. For example the phrase "disqualifying pyramid scheme accusations", or other such qualifying statements, violates NPOV. I will work on parsing the two when I get a chance and then you can add to the "defense" section to yr heart's content, at which point I expect the "criticism" section can be left well enough alone. Anazgnos 16:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with the bulk of the new section, but non-neutral comments (such as: "speculations are in error" - Who says so...you? The "speculations" are a given via a published reference. see NPOV) will continue to be pruned. YOU (the writer) cannot classify or qualify statements. If you want to present an opinion or characterize a statement or suggest conclusions, you MUST provide a reference to a credible, previously published source. Anazgnos 19:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Some, some, some...no no no. The citations don't characterize those actions as being limited, they refer to them as being general. You can't qualify cited statements according to your own opinions. Anazgnos 20:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Gnarlyocelot - effectively every statement in the current "criticism" paragraph is cited. You cannot change the intent of the cited statements by adding the qualifier "some", as in "some say" or "some agents", etc, to each of them. That serves to contradict or editorialize the content and intent of the cited statements, which is not permissisble according to NPOV guidelines. If you wish to put a slant on/discredit the cited criticisms, do so in the "discussing/addressing" section, and do so with your own cited references - not with your own opinion. Anazgnos 20:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Referred to Mediation Cabal Anazgnos 21:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

GnarlyOcelot: Anazgnos, first, my sincerest apologies; i did not realize there was a section where the article could be discussed. I think we've both been getting a little frustrated but now that we can actually exchange viewpoints hopefully this will be more fruitful. Im not entirely familiar with how this works. 1. How do i send you messages directly and 2. is this how we should continue communicating? Through this wikipedia box? Let's make this a good fair article. Thanks.

you'll want to "sign" your comments with four of these (~) to get the fancy sig and date/time stamping) We've got a mediator on the case at the link posted above (and right here)...I'm just trying to get NPOV policy call on the usage of "some ___" to qualify the statements in the criticism section, and he advised I get in touch with you privately to make sure you were aware of the discussion. So my complaint is as stated above. I'd say just pop on over to the mediation page and state your position on the most recent edits there. I'm not on any kind of crusade here - I'm just trying to get this article to NPOV status. In good faith I refraining from further reversions/edits until this issue is resolved. Anazgnos 07:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and pasted in the "compromise" paragraph. I took the "addressing" section out as well since it was adressing things that are no longer present in the main paragraph, but if you want to bring some of that back, feel free. Anazgnos 16:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reversions

User "Lyean" - You have reverted this article to a previous revision two times. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked according to Wikipedia policy. The previous article is not acceptable according to Wikipedia NPOV standards. Thank you. Anazgnos 20:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


Is this the reason it now has many links to scam sites and is SIGNIFICANTLY shorter than it was a week ago? One week earlier it was accurate, detailed, and informative. now it's short, inconclusive, and has as much info as some small amature band entry... I'm sorry if that comes off crass, because it is well WRITTEN, but waht's written doesn't inform very well.--Thegzeus 20:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The version I can only assume you are referring to was, to be sure, longer. The current revision is the result of a judicious pruning of that text. All text removed was at best either NPOV, comprised needlessly convoluted and irrelevant deluges of figures to support blantantly NPOV statements, constituted blatant hawking or sales-pitching of Primerica's services, or was of inappropriately informal tone. The worst of it seemed to be copied from a Primerica pamphlet (or should I say tract?)...except (or perhaps accounting for) the fourth-grade reading level. I agree that they may not be enough content here, and I've invited anyone knowledgeable on the subject to expand that content, with no takers. Anazgnos 23:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Tract? You have some kind of agenda here, and I'd like to know what it is so we can move forward with a clear idea of where we're heading. You're extremely rude, sir, and I'd like you to at least pretend to understand basic courtesy.
No takers? There was alot of info, and you can fix the tone without deleting the content. I can provide someone with info if they can set up the page. I was reading at a high school level in 4th grade, and I've...maintained that so I figure I could write something up in Word or such and have it converted...
And no, it won't be copied word for word.Thegzeus 23:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is the version I was trying to mention

Excuse my lack of skill in the method of posting here. I'm not used to it yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Primerica_Financial_Services&direction=prev&oldid=54732891

This version is far superior to what we have left. Additions to would better than removals from it, I believe.

The cult comments are...ludicrously one-sided, so those are out.

A fair discussion of both sides of NEW criticisms is in order. Once a good balanced set with both sides represented equally is available, we can then move forward.

I'm going to have to insist on the previous revision, the result of the moderation request. An impartial observer deemed that one relevant and neutral. I submitted to considerable cuts to my original text as a compromise. The version you've instated smacks of blatant attempts to spin and counter criticism, i.e., couching POV in superficially NPOV language.
Rather than focusing on the criticism section, I might suggest that you consider expanding the descriptive elements of the main article. If you're versed in Primerica's methods and operations you'd presumably be qualified to do so; I am not. As long as that space is not used to spin criticism or hawk or play up the wonderful benefits that Primerica offers.
And as far as the "cult" comments being "one sided" - you'll note the reference link on that statement is Primerica's own site. The statement is that they have been referred to as a cult, and the support of that statement is Primerica's own acknowledgement of that allegation. Curious readers will be taken directly to Primerica's own corporate spin on that issue; I really think you have nothing to complain about there.Anazgnos 04:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I was speaking of the extended version and the 'ripoff.com' quote.
You're speaking almost as though you have an egenda agaist promerica.
I'm trying to get the facts straight, and I do work with primerica. I'm very well versed.
Simply seperating the criticism that have any basis in fact and anyting to counter them that can also be referenced(I can give names, quotes, reference internal memo etc.) into two sections seems fair.
The $MART loan section being shortened to that degree seems pointless. There were several NPOV statements that could ahve been removed without nixing the entire section.
The theory of decreasing Responsibility can be sourced from either a Primerica Website, or Success from Home magazine, July 2005. Many other products are discussed there as well.
The wording can be changed, but nothing in that version was false.
Additions(such as specific sources of information) were neccesary.
Note that I haven't done it, I'm simply waiting for people to assist in revisions. It needs them, but the current version gives no info of any worth. The corporate links have more info, making this entry useless.
I could grab several pieces of info and that magazine and make a complete entry, but I am NOT EVEN CLOSE to well-versed on how making entries works here.
No WYSIWYG? I can't do it.
I just now noticed who you were, and that you'd deleted where you'd said you were "done with this" and I should "make it into whatever corporate blow-job wet dream" I wanted to.
What was your original text? What's your experience with the company?Thegzeus 23:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Anazgnos/Thegzeus, This article is under review by Primerica to expand and or edit the main points of the article. Primerica will adhere to the policies and guidelines set forth by Wikipedia (NPOV). A1794 12:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Excellent. It's great to see compliance getting involved in this.
I'l like to note that I am not the one who reverted it. I leave this to the hands of the proffesionals.Thegzeus 16:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Some Thoughts

The article currently states: "The industry likes to focus the consumer's attention almost entirely on the interest rate and the monthly payment, whereas Primerica representatives are trained to focus on the total cost of the loan (total interest expressed as a dollar amount) and the client's "debt freedom date"."

This is pretty word-for-word from Primerica. I don't think I'd see this in a Britannica article, were they to address Primerica. "The industry likes to..." You mean the largest multinational banking conglomerate in the world (Citigroup) isn't "The Industry"? The whole $MART loan section needs to be re-done. It needs to describe what it is, exactly, how is it different from traditional refinancing, and perhaps a counter to its draw-backs. I'm tempted to do this myself, but maybe post it here in the discussion page and see what senior Wikipedians think. The $MART loan can be a good product, but this depends very much on the customer's current loans and financial situation. It is certainly not a magical panacea.

So, as a summary of what I mean: instead of using Primerica wording for explanation of products, such as "The Industry", perhaps Wikipedia should use more correct and more neutral terms such as "traditional financial institutions," etc. Primerica's products do differ in many important ways from traditional banking and yes, this article should say so and explain it. But having been through many Primerica meetings, this article sounds a lot like them, not like an encyclopedia.

I'll think about the $MART loan section, post it here later, and see what people think. Perhaps even an example would be great for showing how it can work differently from traditional financing, with a ficitional customer etc. Anyone good at graphs? Gaviidae 10:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You are all very intelligent and have impressed me with your strong vocabulary and ademant concern for this organization, perhaps finding something better to do with your time... and mine. - B-Rizzle (Time-Waster)

I see no mention of Primerica's thirst for infant blood. I'd like to include something along the lines of "Primerica requires fresh human infant blood to grow. Primerica must be stopped. If allowed to continue, Primerica will consume all new infants born in the world." Anazgnos 22:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

---The main page needs some serious cleaning up and editing. The addition of the SEC suit against Primerica because a few moron RVP's concocted a ponzi scheme needs to be clarified and explained as such. The time that this event occured was soon after Art Williams sold the company. During this time, the company lost roughly 150,000 representatives, and a very few that stayed on took advantage of the company's weakened position to orchestrate a ponzi scheme that ended in their being terminated from the company.

Funny how people always blame the parents for their children's misbehavings. Until it is your child who is getting into trouble with the law will you take responsibility for that child even though you have told them many times NOT to do certain things????

Compliance issues are EXTREMELY important, and are a subject of every leadership school as well as a good sized portion of POL, the training intranet accessible to PFS reps. Part of why some people find it so important to smear PFS as much as possible is because it does things so differently, and because it keeps its standards so high, whenever there's a failure its detractors point, yell, and scream about it. The reality is that 99% of the time, PFS reps do the right thing, and that the 1% where someone screws up, the company works harder on to boost its already industry leading compliance. No company's perfect, but there are few out there that work as hard as PFS's home team does to support the field force and keep compliance higher than the rest of the industry.

I don't mean to embarrass any fellow internet users that detract heavily to PFS, you certainly have the right, but our company crushed the life insurance industry in the 1980's, when they tried to regulate and sue us into oblivion. They lost, we won because we did the right thing for people. Instead of criticising the proven system of success that exists in our company, it's ok to recognize that what we do for families is unparalleled in the industry today. Simply put, there is no better company with higher standards working hard to correct the harm done to average people by the rest of the industry. Have you sat at kitchen tables with a family who's mortgage broker put them in an arm with negative amortization, which will mean they will lose their house in a few years? How about seeing a family paying $400 a month for 4 or 5 VUL's? It's a mess out there in middle America, and with the amount of debt people carry and with foreclosures spiking, the proof's in the pudding.

So, instead of crying about how we have a hybrid system (best parts of the broker/agent, franchise, and MLM systems) and that once in a great while, some moron rep will do the wrong thing and get terminated ASAP, it's ok to write a non-biased article about how the company is really out there to help families. I used the $MART loan to change a family member's life when they'd been rejected for a refinance TWICE because of credit issues. We help people. Don't ever forget that. Brandon-----------

Write an article that describes in a few words as possible, what the company does, in factual terms. Not what it wants to do, or tries to do, or intends to do, or why it does it. There is no other way to prevent the article from being a constant battle between zealots and critics. Anazgnos 21:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the theory of responsibility should be on here, other products that Primerica sells such as mutual funds from Franklin Templeton, and AGF (which has one department dedicated to Primerica... as I was told by a representative from AGF).. RRSPs, RESPs (in Canada)... the training system they have, the courses they offer (LLQP course program provided and government regulated in Canada). Also their guarantee, which is if you score 80% or above at POL you are guaranteed to pass OR they will pay for your next provincial licensing fee....... if criticisms can be put on this article, what about saying how hard working the reps are and RVPs willing to go out of their way just to help people get ahead? Or the fact that they won't quit on you until you quit? Or what about the psychology behind average peoples thinking:? the fact that people are lazy and want things for free, and when help is in front of your face you don't take it? Or the fact that people make excuses to get away from doing any work?? Or the fact that people fake being interested and tell you they want to learn more, and when asked to come check it out they say 'yes' and give you a fake number? Maybe they should put in this article that what university students learn about in psychology for thousands of dollars, PFSL reps learn for FREE. FNA is for FREE too.... ahh how strange and ironic this world is. What I would really like to know is how much really do people know about Primerica when they start saying negative things about the company. To clear this up even more though, Primerica is not the bad guy going around and messing up peoples lives.. it is up to the individual to decide that. It's a wrong thing to judge a person by their parents and the sad thing is people do that. As we all know people judge by looks and that is wrong, the same type of people judge representatives by their company and not the person; not only is that wrong, but it is stupid.... One thing I learn is valueable in my life by my RVP is that skeptical people want information. After all the information is supplied to them, and all their answers are given, they are still unsatisfied. Why? It is because people want to hear what they want to hear. So the best way to answer somebody is to let them answer it themselves. It is because people don't like to disagree with themselves, so give them that chance to look at themselves objectively for once... ahh people can't handle the truth is true....
Can you guys (the primerican drones)...seriously...please...just try to read some of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines before doing anything else on this? Try to get some handle on what NPOV means and what is allowable, and what isn't? Anazgnos 17:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

We'd prefer a truly objective article. It's not necessary to have a pro-PFS article, just one that states the facts, the REAL facts. The neutrality of the article is debated because of the conflicting statements paragraph to paragraph. Just because a section is called "Criticisms" doesn't mean it needs to throw up all over the rest of the article. It should be noted that the system Primerica utilizes is a Hybrid of the "Broker/Agent" system, the "Franchise" system, and the "MLM" system, and that overrides are a part of EVERY sales organization. The money "flows up" like every other business ever created. It's called p-r-o-f-i-t. Please keep in mind that in a business like Primerica's, most people simply do not work. Statistically speaking, most people never attain much of anything in life, and that's simply a matter of personal drive to succeed as well as the ability to dream. Most people utilize the traditional "corporate job" path, which is widely trodden and therefore not likely to be profitable long term. When they come to Primerica, they have been inundated with the "wrong stuff" for building a business. If they can undo the philosophies that they have been conditioned with that makes them broke every day, they have a chance of pursuing success with PFS. If not, they should stick with what they have and work on improving it by cutting expenses and saving money. We show them both ways and let them decide. The company was founded to give ordinary people the opportunity to do extraordinary things part time.

[edit] Corporate Response

Primerica Financial Services has analyzed and revised the Primerica Wikipedia article. We believe Primerica has complied with the policies and guidelines Wikipedia has set forth. Please review for NPOV and consideration in removing the NPOV dispute box tagged to this article. Primerica Financial Services is committed to providing the most accurate and unbiased information to make the Primerica Financial Services article better. --A1794 14:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Cite your references. The above paragraph is irrelevant. --RealGrouchy 20:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
There are no references to cite. As a representative of Primerica Financial Services, I am attempting to comply with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to provide an unbiased article regarding Primerica Financial Services. In an attempt to remove the NPOV dispute tag and article tone tag attached to the top of the article, I am asking other editors to review the latest revisions I made to the article and determine if the tags can be removed.--A1794 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia exactly smile on a given corporation writing and overseeing their own article? Anazgnos 04:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. How can User A1794 be unbiased if he's writing about Primerica, on behalf of Primerica? That seems to be the very essence of bias. -- Minaker

As far as I am concerned, User A1794 is an imposter, and is illegally claiming to be a[n authorized] representative of Primerica. The user should point to something on Primerica's official website which authorizes him/her to make such a claim (ironic that he/she removes criticisms of Primerica on the basis of not being cited, while not citing his or her authority to represent Primerica). Assuming, however, that User A1794 is , it is not up to the company to declare the article NPOV, particularly to effectively take one side in an "edit war". --RealGrouchy 22:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some Examples of the Kinds of POV Statements that Really Can't Be Allowed

Just as an example, I have isolated the following blatantly POV statements from the article. At a bare minimum, they would need a citation, but many really couldn't conceivably be allowable by any stretch.

  • " The loan industry generally focuses the consumer's attention almost entirely on the interest rate and the monthly payment"
  • "...is agressively marketed as a debt-elimination program because the program is structured for the consumer to get out of debt with the lowest total cost."
  • "which can be invested so the client can retire sooner and/or better."
  • "Most banks focus on refinancing, pulling equity out of the home, interest only loans, equity lines of credit and ARMs. These products keep consumers tied to a bank forever."
  • "The average consumer is led to believe that they can never own their home."
  • "If one compares the amount of interest a borrower pays over the life time of a mortgage after several refinances, all the refinance charges and fees, to a $.M.A.R.T. Loan which is designed to be the last loan the borrower will ever have."
  • "The FNA helps clients identify financial problems in the following areas" (who qualifies that it "helps" in a factual sense? What factual support is provided to show that it is actually helpful? Or is it merely alleged to help? If one truly wishes to avoid POV, such questions need to be considered)
  • "The $.M.A.R.T. Loan product is a comparatively simple product for the mortgage industry"
  • "Hands down, the $.M.A.R.T. Loan is the better solution."
  • "Primerica is in the best position to educate consumers about finance because they offer mortgage products, life insurance (income protection) and investments."

In each case, you could either a) provide a credible, reputable published source that states any of the above, and quote them directly, b) provide an official Primerca source and preface the statement by saying "Primerica alleges that..." or something similar, or c) remove any such statements entirely.

There are still numerous other POV or unsupported statements in the article. This is just to get you started in the right direction. Anazgnos 04:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Anazgnos, Why are vandalizing the article page? (Revision as of 19:13, 21 August 2006) A1794 20:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Wasn't vandalism...it was parody. There is no qualitative difference between unsourced statements referecing the disease-curing properties of Primerica programs vs. statements like "hands down, the SMART loan is the better solution." At least we know you weren't really sincere about "attempting to comply with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines"....Anazgnos 01:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Anazgnos, If you were a true unbias editor, you would not have made the edit - just remove the questionable content. As you may know, this article is constantly being revised. If you looked at my contribution history you would see the edits I have made to the article and realized the edits you referenced were not made by myself. I have tried to monitor the article and remove NPOV statements. After your last objections, A2143, removed sections of the article that you felt violated NPOV policies. I feel at the this point this needs to go to arbitration.A1794 22:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I certainly did remove the NPOV statements. They were put back in every single time I looked at the article thereafter. Clearly, my edits in question were "whimsical" and were not intended to be taken seriously, but as sort of reductio ad absurdam. I'm not really going to defend them. I apologize if they caused offense. As you can see the article has been nominated for deletion, which, even if not approved, may result in some better, more impartial oversight. Anazgnos 23:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nominated for Deletion

In addition to apparently deadlocked NPOV disputes, this article may not meet Notability Criteria for Companies and Corporations, and has been nominated for deletion. Anazgnos 22:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing spam 8/29/06

I've trimmed down the article to its essentials - what the company is, its history and some links. The section on its products is spam and the section on criticism is unsourced, so it has to go. If you can source it, feel free to replace the information. Aplomado talk 23:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The trouble with criticism

Is that, historically, as long as Primerica-people themselves are hovering over this article, every time any criticism gets introduced, there is an effort to neutralize it with the kind of POV language and spam that the article used to be full of, where every criticism is met with a counter-claim and pro-Primerica jargon is inserted to offset, and an edit war generally ensues.

I wouldn't suggest that no criticism should ever be added, but interested parties should at least consider the possibility that the incredibly dry, POV, spam, and crit-free version of the article that has more or less stably persisted for the past few months may be the lesser of two evils. Anazgnos 21:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see sources for the dry material. There is a source for the criticism. We can stub this article by removing all unsourced info. But in the meantime we need to include all viewpoints in order to be NPOV. -Will Beback 01:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with sourcing all info. I agree with keeping all viewpoints in order to be NPOV. However, the latest edits to the article have been made under the criticism section, the sourced material redirects to a porn site. Apparently, this is a forum owned by Ken Young, other edits have been made to point to an alternate site, run by Ken Young (www.kenyoungpresents.com). The problem I see with this, which has been raised by another editor - that Ken Young is a competitor - is this a fair use of NPOV? Add to the fact that one of his sites redirects to a porn site and I feel I must answer no. Primerica 14:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

The history section goes far beyond what is included in the provided sources. Is there any way that we can verify the material? -Will Beback 22:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I see an editor has added some sources, which is great, but I'm not sure how we can verify them. Where can one find the "Primerica Financial Services Press Release, July 1, 1992" or the "1983 A.L. Williams Corporation Annual Report"? -Will Beback · † · 21:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because it cannot be search for, and found, on the internet does not mean the source doesn't exist. It is up to the reader to do a little research. Primerica 13:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Where did you find these sources? -Will Beback · † · 21:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
In the public domain. Try EdgarOnline. Primerica 16:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
EdgarOnline might have the Travellers annual report, but they don't have the Primerica press release or the A.L. Williams Corporation annual report. Unless we can verify the information we'll have to remove it. -Will Beback · † · 18:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
As I stated before, do a little research. Just because you couldn't find it on the internet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The specific statements you are wanting sourced are in the public domain. These are not just facts that were made up. Primerica 21:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Let me ask again - where did you find this information? -Will Beback · † · 21:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This information can be found online - on the Citigroup website. 67.33.128.90 04:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Good, thanks for finding that. -Will Beback · † · 18:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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