Talk:Premillennialism

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Contents 1 Chiliasm vs Premillennialism 2 Justin Martyr? 3 Condemned at Ephesus? 4 Neutrality 5 Adventist Exception

[edit] Chiliasm vs Premillennialism

Two questions: Is there a difference between Chiliasm and Premillennialism? Second, is the first sentence of the article really true? Isn't a/post/premillennialism more than that? Maybe replace "eschatology is the interpretation" with "eschatology is best explained by the interpretation"?

Premillennialism in Christian eschatology is the interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation in the Bible which sees Christ's second coming as occurring ...

Liblamb 18:06, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems accurate to me as it is, but not very precise. Don't some forms of Postmillennialism also believe that Christ's return takes (took) place prior to the millennium? The more clear distinction should be that Premillennialism holds the millenium is still yet-to-come. --BeboGuitar 18:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

If there were propotents of Premillennialism among the early church fathers, we need some names. And a reference would not be amiss. Goldfritha 17:37, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that bit on Justin Martyr. I reworded it a little, as it felt a bit argumentative to me. -BeboGuitar 21:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

There should probably be a distinction drawn between Historic Premillennialism and Dispensational Premillenialism. Perhaps I'll try to find some good sources and create a section on the distinctions. --BeboGuitar 18:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

That would be nice. The citation given for the early father merely asserts that four fathers were premillenists. It would be nice to have what their works were -- even, since many of their works are on-line, specific references to the works that taught them. (And I'm not sure that a citation that speaks of four is really a citation for a "many".) Goldfritha 01:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I found a long list of names on this page [1]. The page as a whole is pretty one-sided, so I don't think I'll include the link in the article, but there are several names to look up for anyone who's interested. -BeboGuitar 16:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Justin Martyr?

I have to question whether Justin Martyr can be called a premillenialist. Here are his words from Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 81:

And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.

Justin says that Christ will rule for 1000 years and thereafter would follow the general resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the only verse in the New Testament that mentions believers being "caught up" links this event with the general resurrection of the dead. It seems to me that if Christ's reign begins before the resurrection, that would be post-millenialism. Aardvark92 15:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, researching in response to my own question, I found this well-sourced document which goes into detail about Justin Martyr's chiliast leanings, beginning with paragraph (23). Justin's remark that "many... believe otherwise" is a clear indication that his viewpoint is in the minority. My source linked above quotes several early church fathers who held another viewpoint, and none before Justin who expressed anything that can be remotely regarded as premillennialist. Furthermore, beginning in paragraph (36) this article shows the postmillennialist influences also found in Justin's writing.

Given all this, I don't think it is accurate to say, "Many early church fathers were proponents of premillennialism." Perhaps a few can be said to have supported some aspects of premillennialism. I'm revising the article to reflect that.

Aardvark92 14:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the paragraph order to make it more clear that Justin's quote from chapter 80 refers to his chiliastic beliefs, not to his belief that the kingdom is already here. Aardvark92 16:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Condemned at Ephesus?

Anyone got a better reference that that? Like, what the document actually said? Considering that the Catholic Church does not consider amillennialism dogmatically defined (see reference in Amillennialism), I would find it interesting. Goldfritha 23:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It appears that the Council of Ephesus, which dealt mainly with Nestorianism, did not discuss premillennialism. This source shows the history of the claim that premillennialism was condemned at Ephesus. Here is a link to a primary source from the council. I'm removing the claim from this article.

[edit] Neutrality

Is it me, or did Papias256 use loaded language in the rewrite? Goldfritha 23:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

What is it in particular that may be considered loaded language? I merely sought to give a well-sourced history of premillennialism since the older page seemed somewhat scattered and unreferenced. There was also a confusion in the previous article between premillennialism in general and dispensational pretribulational premillennialism. This was found in the earlier references to the Left Behind series and Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth as distinctively premillennial. While they were premillennial, they were a specific brand of premillennialism, specifically a brand which is popular in modern Evangelical America. This brand of premillennialism was not historically or geographically popular.

Anyhow, I didn't think that I had entered anything into the article that would have been offensive to amillennialists or those of other eschatological persuasions. I included the Augustinian history which is something that Amillennialists would be proud of. Is there anything in my article in which a respected theologian has rejected? If so, then I have not read them. If you doubt my facts, then check my sources. Papias256 14:41, 24 October 2006

Solid and fair article on the premillennial issue Papias256. Appreciated the historical brevity. I'm sorry Goldfritha but the language did not seem loaded or biased. As I am familiar with the amill, premill, and postmill argument, Papias256 had several opportunities for a biased review yet didn't take them. If you have any references or support to back up your underdeveloped critique and "dispute", I would be interested in reviewing it. Waiting for a response. User:kevin_mcgill2 20:05, 25 October 2006

Goldfritha has had plenty of time to explain. None has been forthcoming, so the tag goes. Paul B 23:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adventist Exception

I appreciate the addition of the exception of the Adventist movement in the definition. It is true that they are considered premillennial and that they do believe that Christ and the saints will reign in heaven during that time period (rather than on the earth). However, since they are certainly an exception to the tradition of chiliasm, and not the norm, I thought that it might be necessary to qualify their exception in parentheses. Perhaps a footnote would have been more helpful (so that the definition isn't too jumbled). Additionally, the grammar of the previous addition was confusing. "The belief that Christ will reign on earth and heaven[?]" Here is the actual statement from the Adventists "Fundamental Beliefs" for anyone that wants to know.

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

[2]

It is interesting to note their belief because of its theological implications for the larger movement of premillennial dispensationalists. Dispensationalists see the earthly reign as necessary to fulfill covenantal obligations regarding the Davidic Throne, the Land Promise, etc. While the adventist belief sees a different cosmic scheme happening in light of the "Great Controversy" theology.

Papias256 23:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)